why bitcoins are just like gold. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

- Jesus Christ - · 03-30-2013, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

all currency is based on faith. nothing more.

Cryptographic hashes are based on faith?

Yea... you're an idiot.

TheSquealer · 03-30-2013, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

settle down.

since you quoted "momentum" i'l figure you were quoting me on that, if you doble-check, you will see that i was referring to the infrastructure provided by ripple.com, which is not cryptocurrency specific.

i've never said btc is the holy grail, far from it. in fact, you'll be hardpressed to find me doing anything around here re: btc that isn't supported with a link to where i retrieved the information. a lot of people are asking genuine questions here re: btc and i think it's important to at least try to provide factual replies.

so yeah, i fully understand that myspace was here before facebook, i get that, in fact, collegeclub was here before myspace and i happened to work for collegclub starting in 1998, so i know what it's like to be left standing during a game of high-tech investing musical chairs.

yes, teh moneys = cult

i'm not intending to criticize anything you are say as much as I was trying to pose the question. I understand the enthusiasm, what is harder for me to understand is how little this seemingly obvious fact that anyone can now create a currency, thus affecting the value of all other similar currencies is discussed. Further, those which are created and fail or are not secure, where people get ripped off etc etc etc, radically change perceptions of value globally in mere minutes.

TheSquealer · 03-30-2013, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Jesus Christ -

Cryptographic hashes are based on faith?

Yea... you're an idiot.

Value is based on faith. Value is perception, nothing more. That perception can change in milliseconds and even evaporate completely.

dyna mo · 03-30-2013, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayabong

I've really been trying to wrap my mind around Ripple. From what I understand its not just for cryptocurrencies but for all currencies. Its all based on trust. Bob wants to buy from me but I dont know Bob, but you know BoB and trust Bob and I know you and trust you, therefore I trust Bob and I can sell to bob. (or something?)

apparently, they've created their own internal monetary system, a ripple xrp credit, i think it is called.

this is from a digital coin forum where they discussed it a bit

Quote:

basically ripple is a generalization of LETS where everybody can operate his own currency. Any unit can be used, so to achieve price stability the unit can be defined as a basket of commodities without the need of actually storing those commodities to back the promises, the promises are backed by the goods and services that the issuer produces. But not everybody will accept your currency, only the people who trust you. By finding paths of trust that indirectly connect the payer and the recipient, a ripple transaction can be made between parties that don't trust each other like if they were using cash. Ripple uses the existing network of trust between people to enable trade. And the unit of account can be gold, bitcoins, hours, terras, USDs, Kgs of carrots...whatever the users agree is better for them.

mayabong · 03-30-2013, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

i'm not intending to criticize anything you are say as much as I was trying to pose the question. I understand the enthusiasm, what is harder for me to understand is how little this seemingly obvious fact that anyone can now create a currency, thus affecting the value of all other similar currencies is discussed. Further, those which are created and fail or are not secure, where people get ripped off etc etc etc, radically change perceptions of value globally in mere minutes.

Why does everyone buy Coke still? There are 10,000 other things that taste like it. they are doomed.

dyna mo · 03-30-2013, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

i'm not intending to criticize anything you are say as much as I was trying to pose the question. I understand the enthusiasm, what is harder for me to understand is how little this seemingly obvious fact that anyone can now create a currency, thus affecting the value of all other similar currencies is discussed. Further, those which are created and fail or are not secure, where people get ripped off etc etc etc, radically change perceptions of value globally in mere minutes.

for me, the opportunity for scarcity (longevity) lies in the algorithm. IF it is as elegant as they say it is, and it's all open-source, then it could in fact be just like gold, a 1 of a kind element and will withstand the test of time and competition. i was reading elsewhere though that some believe there should be more than 1 cryptocurrency in circulation also.

dyna mo · 03-30-2013, 02:47 PM

more:::

Ripple credits, aka XRP or ripples, are the units used as a transaction fee to protect the Ripple payment system from malicious attacks.
XRP is the proposed ISO 4217 currency code designated for Ripple.
XRP as currently implemented has six digits of precision. The smallest unit is one millionth of an XRP ( 0.000001 ) and is call a "drop". That is: 1 XRP = 1,000,000 drops.
XRP spent as transaction fees are destroyed. The default transaction fee is currently 10 drops. There should be enough XRP to last for thousands of years despite this destruction. If the value of XRP changes, the transaction fee can be adjusted by the consensus of the network.
XRP are the only currency in the Ripple network that has no counter-party risk and can be sent to any account without a trust relationship.
When the Ripple network was created, 100 billion XRP was created. The founders gave 80 billion XRP to the OpenCoin Inc. OpenCoin Inc. will develop the Ripple software, promote the Ripple payment system, give away XRP, and sell XRP.

https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_credits

greg80 · 03-30-2013, 02:50 PM

Bitcoin is NOTHING like gold. How can you claim that something that exists only 4 years has the same value as storage of wealth and security as gold? Gold has been a currency for thousands of years and millions of people have lost their lives over it over history. Gold is the main reason why Christopher Columbus discovered America and has driven men to the edge of the world. Bitcoin is produced by some geeks in their mothers basement and can be worthless tomorrow.

There is no safer feeling than knowing you have few kilos of gold somewhere in a safe storage for rainy days. How safe can you feel with having bitcoin as your long term backup?

Gold is very liquid, you can go to any real gold dealer with good delivery bars or bullion coins and get spot price for it, even spot +2% for some more popular bullion.

TheSquealer · 03-30-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayabong

Why does everyone buy Coke still? There are 10,000 other things that taste like it. they are doomed.

So you think that anyone starting a company to compete with a $200,000,000,000.00 company, their bottling capability, their 8 figure marketing campaigns and having restaurants worldwide locked down and failing to compete is analagous?

What would Coke's position be in the market when 20,000 people could jump in on a whim and create a startup with a level playing field with Coca Cola in terms of resources, marketing and distribution? That's what bitcoin is. Anyone can do it. So ultimately the idea of digital currencies might succeed in some form, but its highly improbable that bitcoin will any more than excite.com, netscape.com, prodigy.com, webcrawler.com etc was in the start of the web.

Bitcoin is like looking at day 2 of the internet and telling the guy who created a search engine or browser that he's the future. No one here could ever come close to predicting where this will be in 1 year, or 2 years and peoples certainty on the subject is proof positive of irrational behavior and views.

dyna mo · 03-30-2013, 02:55 PM

dyna mo · 03-30-2013, 03:03 PM

ok, so that reference to LETS above, ripple uses that

http://www.gmlets.u-net.com/

Quote:

Ripple Concept

How do I collect my money?

When you get paid through Ripple, you are left being owed by one or more of your neighbours. You may use those obligations to purchase whatever you can by paying them to someone through the system. Of course, you may pay them right to one of your neighbours for whatever they have to offer you, including cash.

Until there is a critical mass of users, buying exactly what you want using Ripple may be difficult, therefore if settling in cash is important to you, you should make this clear to your neighbours so they will not be surprised when you ask them for money. Also, take care to not offer credit limits that are too high, or collecting may become a problem. Remember, someone may become indebted to you not just for what you or they have done on the system, but also for what others have done through the connection between you!

Why would I want to use Ripple when I can use regular money?

In short, because it is cheaper to use and because your friends are a more wholesome source of credit than banks. Not only will your friends be more understanding if you need to miss a few payments for a good reason, but they will also be more likely to help you out if your spending habits are getting unhealthy.

For a more detailed perspective, see the essay.

Is Ripple a barter system?

No. Ripple is a monetary system, with all the benefits of money over barter, such as not having to find someone who wants exactly what you're offering before you can get something you want. In a sense, all monetary systems are about providing a way to flexibly store value to enable more efficient exchanges, which could be called "delayed-gratification barter". But no, Ripple has nothing to do with barter.

Is Ripple a LETS system?

Ripple was inspired by the LETS concept and the writings of Michael Linton, and was conceived originally as a way to bring more accountability into the spending of credits in a LETS system. Unlike LETS, which only tracks obligations to and from a single central intermediary, Ripple tracks obligations between individuals in a social network. In practice, many LETS users and administrators have complained that LETS provides little incentive to make good on one's obligations other than the desire to have the system work. In Ripple, obligations are never to "the system", or to some other collective entity, but in specific amounts to specific individuals who have agreed to trust you, and the loss of whose trust would have a tangible effect on a participant's life should they decide to renege on their obligations.

Put another way, Ripple is like an interconnected network of LETS systems, each operated by an individual participant. The subscribers to each individual's LETS are his or her neighbours. Each participant acts as a broker to exchange between the LETS currencies they subscribe to.

https://classic.ripplepay.com/faq/

mayabong · 03-30-2013, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

So you think that anyone starting a company to compete with a $200,000,000,000.00 company, their bottling capability, their 8 figure marketing campaigns and having restaurants worldwide locked down and failing to compete is analagous?

What would Coke's position be in the market when 20,000 people could jump in on a whim and create a startup with a level playing field with Coca Cola in terms of resources, marketing and distribution? That's what bitcoin is. Anyone can do it. So ultimately the idea of digital currencies might succeed in some form, but its highly improbable that bitcoin will any more than excite.com, netscape.com, prodigy.com, webcrawler.com etc was in the start of the web.

Bitcoin is like looking at day 2 of the internet and telling the guy who created a search engine or browser that he's the future. No one here could ever come close to predicting where this will be in 1 year, or 2 years and peoples certainty on the subject is proof positive of irrational behavior and views.

Its kinda dumb to say I can start a cyrpto currency right now and be on the same level, of computing power, and acceptance that bitcoin is on. There are lots of cryptocurrencies out there but you probably dont know about them cause they offer nothing really new. If I want to buy drugs am I going to buy a crypto currency that noone is using to buy drugs or am I going to buy bitcoin where it is accepted already? I'm sure there will be some that come out that with properties that people want to use and that is fine. Bitcoin will always be used as a means of transfer weather the value is one penny or 1 billion dollars. Its not meant to be a speculative investment, but a means of transfer.

TheSquealer · 03-30-2013, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayabong

Its kinda dumb to say I can start a cyrpto currency right now and be on the same level, of computing power, and acceptance that bitcoin is on. There are lots of cryptocurrencies out there but you probably dont know about them cause they offer nothing really new. If I want to buy drugs am I going to buy a crypto currency that noone is using to buy drugs or am I going to buy bitcoin where it is accepted already? I'm sure there will be some that come out that with properties that people want to use and that is fine. Bitcoin will always be used as a means of transfer weather the value is one penny or 1 billion dollars. Its not meant to be a speculative investment, but a means of transfer.

There will always be demands for an alternative. There will always be alternatives. Same with every product in every product category in any free market.

dyna mo · 03-30-2013, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg80

Bitcoin is NOTHING like gold. How can you claim that something that exists only 4 years has the same value as storage of wealth and security as gold? Gold has been a currency for thousands of years and millions of people have lost their lives over it over history. Gold is the main reason why Christopher Columbus discovered America and has driven men to the edge of the world. Bitcoin is produced by some geeks in their mothers basement and can be worthless tomorrow.

There is no safer feeling than knowing you have few kilos of gold somewhere in a safe storage for rainy days. How safe can you feel with having bitcoin as your long term backup?

Gold is very liquid, you can go to any real gold dealer with good delivery bars or bullion coins and get spot price for it, even spot +2% for some more popular bullion.

i'm with you man! i had to read the article a few times to try and figure out wht the author meant.

i think he meant either
1. btc is just like gold for the sake of writing an article to better understand the characteristics of bitcoins, not bitcoins as a replacement for au.
or
2. he looks at btc as some sort of techno-gold

- Jesus Christ - · 03-30-2013, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Value is based on faith.

That is a philosophically meaningless word game.
How much is a hug worth? Is it's value based on faith?

Perception != Faith

TheSquealer · 03-30-2013, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Jesus Christ -

That is a philosophically meaningless word game.
How much is a hug worth? Is it's value based on faith?

Perception != Faith

I think you just know you are on the losing end of the argument. People do not use hugs as currency. If they did, there would be a commonly established value and your willingness to accept a hug as payment would be based solely on your faith that someone would accept that hug as payment for the same value.

Since you're not the brightest let me help you with a real world example that is 100% indisputable. If you live in Alaska, you have no problem spending Canadian change because everyone has faith that others will accept a Canadian quarter as .25 for US debts. If you live in Washington state, say in Bellingham Washington you will quickly find that people will not accept Canadian change as payment as there is no faith that others will accept it in kind once it is in your possession. This is true all over the world where tourist areas will accept foreign currencies where outside those tourist areas, they won't. They have no faith that others in those regions will accept those currencies.

This is basic economics 101 which you have no understanding of. But sure, you can predict the future of a currency.

mayabong · 03-30-2013, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg80

Bitcoin is NOTHING like gold. How can you claim that something that exists only 4 years has the same value as storage of wealth and security as gold? Gold has been a currency for thousands of years and millions of people have lost their lives over it over history. Gold is the main reason why Christopher Columbus discovered America and has driven men to the edge of the world. Bitcoin is produced by some geeks in their mothers basement and can be worthless tomorrow.

There is no safer feeling than knowing you have few kilos of gold somewhere in a safe storage for rainy days. How safe can you feel with having bitcoin as your long term backup?

Gold is very liquid, you can go to any real gold dealer with good delivery bars or bullion coins and get spot price for it, even spot +2% for some more popular bullion.

Wonder how much everyones gold in Europe was inflated once tons of it started arriving from the new world. On another note, not sure where you live, but the US did confiscate everyones gold in the 30's. So having gold isn't a sure deal. With Bitcoins they would have a task trying to confiscate them. :p

- Jesus Christ - · 03-30-2013, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I think you just know you are on the losing end of the argument. People do not use hugs as currency. If they did, there would be a commonly established value and your willingness to accept a hug as payment would be based solely on your faith that someone would accept that hug as payment for the same value.

Since you're not the brightest let me help you with a real world example that is 100% indisputable. If you live in Alaska, you have no problem spending Canadian change because everyone has faith that others will accept a Canadian quarter as .25 for US debts. If you live in Washington state, say in Bellingham Washington you will quickly find that people will not accept Canadian change as payment as there is no faith that others will accept it in kind once it is in your possession. This is true all over the world where tourist areas will accept foreign currencies where outside those tourist areas, they won't. They have no faith that others in those regions will accept those currencies.

This is basic economics 101 which you have no understanding of. But sure, you can predict the future of a currency.

You are making convoluted anecdotal generalizations to hide the fact that you cannot construct a valid logical argument.

You are also redefining words as you see fit. If it is your position that hugs and human affection have no "value" then it's pointless to take the conversation any further.

greg80 · 03-30-2013, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayabong

Wonder how much everyones gold in Europe was inflated once tons of it started arriving from the new world. On another note, not sure where you live, but the US did confiscate everyones gold in the 30's. So having gold isn't a sure deal. With Bitcoins they would have a task trying to confiscate them. :p

Where I live (EU) they are confiscating money on peoples bank account. Is that better?

CAHEK · 03-30-2013, 07:32 PM

There will be massive breakage in bitcoins. If your laptop crashes and you didn?t back up your bitcoins, well, you?re SOL. If someone steals you laptop that has 10,000 bitcoins on it you won on Bitcoin Poker, you?re SOL. Lost your USB drive with 500 bitcoins on it after a night out on the town? You?re SOL.

Internet Guy · 03-30-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAHEK

There will be massive breakage in bitcoins. If your laptop crashes and you didn?t back up your bitcoins, well, you?re SOL. If someone steals you laptop that has 10,000 bitcoins on it you won on Bitcoin Poker, you?re SOL. Lost your USB drive with 500 bitcoins on it after a night out on the town? You?re SOL.

Back up your wallet, encrypt it, email it to yourself/dropbox/etc. Problem solved.

Joshua G · 03-30-2013, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

How will that momentum be "maintained" when 1000 other people start 10,000 similar currencies? What is the value of bitcoins when there are 10,000 similar currencies? What is the value of a bitcoin when its realized that anyone can just randomly wake up and start a currency using open source software and people are doing it daily? What is the value of a bitcoin going to be when millions of people lose money on similar currencies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

If you live in Alaska, you have no problem spending Canadian change because everyone has faith that others will accept a Canadian quarter as .25 for US debts. If you live in Washington state, say in Bellingham Washington you will quickly find that people will not accept Canadian change as payment as there is no faith that others will accept it in kind once it is in your possession. This is true all over the world where tourist areas will accept foreign currencies where outside those tourist areas, they won't. They have no faith that others in those regions will accept those currencies.

LOL how you answered your own question with your own post on a related topic. Bitcoin has the advantage of what business class calls "first to market" advantage...all this recent publicity puts bitcoin's brand name ahead of the 10,000 other cryptocurrencies. As a result bitcoin could earn the trust of merchants & customers, to where the other 10000 currencies would not be accepted, exactly like your canadian currency example.

Joshua G · 03-30-2013, 09:45 PM

as an aside, trust in money & banks that hold it is absolutely essential to the public, & also to economic viability. Bank runs & financial panics happen when the public loses that trust. One single hiccup in trust, its over. For this reason, i dont think there is a viable marketplace for 10,000 privately traded e-currencies.

The public trusts gold, trusts the Fed & its reserve notes. I can easily see a scenario that cryptocurrencies are fronts for ponzis. The cryptography is highly technical, so its quite easy to dupe people with elegant language to imply a currency is trustworthy. Ponzis would scare the crap out of ordinary customers & sink the whole industry, even if bitcoins were 100% secure. there is already the egold & epass & ibill examples.

I would personally forecast that cryptocurrencies will ultimately not be viable on a par with government backed currencies, which are highly regulated by governments, for the preceding reason. Which is not to say none would be viable at all, it would be like today where bitcoins are used in very specific markets.

mayabong · 03-30-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

as an aside, trust in money & banks that hold it is absolutely essential to the public, & also to economic viability. Bank runs & financial panics happen when the public loses that trust. One single hiccup in trust, its over. For this reason, i dont think there is a viable marketplace for 10,000 privately traded e-currencies.

The public trusts gold, trusts the Fed & its reserve notes. I can easily see a scenario that cryptocurrencies are fronts for ponzis. The cryptography is highly technical, so its quite easy to dupe people with elegant language to imply a currency is trustworthy. Ponzis would scare the crap out of ordinary customers & sink the whole industry, even if bitcoins were 100% secure. there is already the egold & epass & ibill examples.

I would personally forecast that cryptocurrencies will ultimately not be viable on a par with government backed currencies, which are highly regulated by governments, for the preceding reason. Which is not to say none would be viable at all, it would be like today where bitcoins are used in very specific markets.

But the examples you used were all centrallized. Bitcoin is not a ponzi but that doesn't mean ponzi's wont use bitcoin. There have already been a few.

Joshua G · 03-30-2013, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg80

Where I live (EU) they are confiscating money on peoples bank account. Is that better?

just IMO but cyprus is an exception, not the rule for bank bailouts. another thread about cyprus pointed out that country is a tax shelter & haven for illegal money. & the confiscation is happening so that the EU is not making drug dealers & tax evaders whole.

Joshua G · 03-30-2013, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayabong

But the examples you used were all centrallized. Bitcoin is not a ponzi but that doesn't mean ponzi's wont use bitcoin. There have already been a few.

Ponzis in other ecurrencies will kill trust, & that means there will be a limited market for e-currencies. just like there are a limited number of trusted porn billers, due to shenanigans in the industry.

IMO the anonymity of bitcoin works against its utilization as a currency on a par with the dollar. simply because, the government is not going to sit back & watch the economy shift from the dollar to an anonymous ecurrency where the IRS can't follow the money.

Joshua G · 03-30-2013, 10:37 PM

one more comment & im done. the fact that one can tumble bitcoins with others does not bode well for its viability with the US government. As soon as bitcoin, or any other ecurrency, becomes the chosen currency of the wealthy, & tax receipts start falling, & the IRS can no longer follow their money, its game over. The government will to do bitcoins the same thing they did to internet sports books, prevent any US banks from dealing with anyone who deals in bitcoins. So it might still take off for other nations. But should bitcoins start costing the IRS income, forget it as a viable currency for US mainstream transactions.

PornMD · 03-31-2013, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

LOL how you answered your own question with your own post on a related topic. Bitcoin has the advantage of what business class calls "first to market" advantage...all this recent publicity puts bitcoin's brand name ahead of the 10,000 other cryptocurrencies. As a result bitcoin could earn the trust of merchants & customers, to where the other 10000 currencies would not be accepted, exactly like your canadian currency example.

Friendster was "first to market" too. Then came MySpace, then Facebook. Now no one knows wtf Friendster is. You think there aren't any other nerds out there that can come up with an algorithm and market it better? Hell, what other business relies on an algorithm? Search engines. Was Google the first search engine? Fuck no.

Bitcoin is expensive right now, whereas Wirecoin and GCoin and CyberCent and whatever else comes tomorrow will start off the same cent or 2 cents each or whatever and the craze will turn to that, then Bitcoin will all of a sudden be nearly worthless.

Bitcoin isn't even the first of its kind technically. Remember Flooz? There were stores that accepted that. Til there weren't.

Collapse simply doesn't happen to normal currencies - maybe 3rd world ones like Zimbabwean dollars, which now are at least useful as toilet paper. When bitcoins are worthless, you can't even wipe your ass with them.

Joshua G · 03-31-2013, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PornMD

Friendster was "first to market" too. Then came MySpace, then Facebook. Now no one knows wtf Friendster is. You think there aren't any other nerds out there that can come up with an algorithm and market it better? Hell, what other business relies on an algorithm? Search engines. Was Google the first search engine? Fuck no.

Bitcoin is expensive right now, whereas Wirecoin and GCoin and CyberCent and whatever else comes tomorrow will start off the same cent or 2 cents each or whatever and the craze will turn to that, then Bitcoin will all of a sudden be nearly worthless.

Bitcoin isn't even the first of its kind technically. Remember Flooz? There were stores that accepted that. Til there weren't.

Collapse simply doesn't happen to normal currencies - maybe 3rd world ones like Zimbabwean dollars, which now are at least useful as toilet paper. When bitcoins are worthless, you can't even wipe your ass with them.

good points man. your right that flavors change all the time on the web. But not in all cases. nothing has really threatened amazon or ebay's success. I doubt businesses are going to want to deal with dozens or hundreds of ecurrencies, so i would expect a dominant player to emerge if the business model becomes mainstream.

dyna mo · 03-31-2013, 03:54 AM

here's the thing about btc and competing/new/other cryptocurrencies-

btc is open-source, it welcomes a better solution. have at it. anyone can take the original, check it out, see how its done and make it better, make it more secure, make the creation rate better, if it is better, or cooler or faster or whatever the community thinks, then the competition would take over and btc would take a back seat, current btc holders would lose their risky investments.

but the fact is, btc is where it is today and able to support its own continually gaining traction because of its algorithm. maybe it is fancy enough to survive.

TheSquealer · 03-31-2013, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh

LOL how you answered your own question with your own post on a related topic. Bitcoin has the advantage of what business class calls "first to market" advantage...all this recent publicity puts bitcoin's brand name ahead of the 10,000 other cryptocurrencies. As a result bitcoin could earn the trust of merchants & customers, to where the other 10000 currencies would not be accepted, exactly like your canadian currency example.

Thats all fine and well in the real world with tangible goods when you have to deal with real world obstacles like production, distribution, expensive marketing efforts and so on. "First to market" online has also typically meant "first to die" as well. Where are all the "first to market" products online? The first social network? The first search engine? The first browser? The first billing companies? etc. "Trust" and product loyalty play a very diminished role online when anything and everything, including the opinions of mobs (and consequently, actions) and alternative products are a click away.

You can use examples of Ebay or Amazon but behind the dozen obvious examples (though ebay wasn't first in the online auction space), there are millions of examples of first to market companies that are gone or were quickly rendered obsolete by a 14 yr old kid who built something better, cooler, faster and so on.

Of course you are right that products will emerge and dominate a space in the real world. There will ultimately be a number 1 and number 2 and then 30 or some number of products competing for scraps in that product space. But we aren't talking about a tangible good a meeting a real need. Bitcoins aren't solving a real world problem. Bitcoins are a revolt against "the man". Bitcoins are a perceived solution to a perceived problem.

At the end of it all, what makes one currency preferred over another? One word...stability. That again is something that can change in milliseconds online as its fickle perceptions and beliefs of the mob that determine the stability of a currency.

dyna mo · 03-31-2013, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PornMD

Collapse simply doesn't happen to normal currencies - maybe 3rd world ones like Zimbabwean dollars, which now are at least useful as toilet paper. When bitcoins are worthless, you can't even wipe your ass with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

At the end of it all, what makes one currency preferred over another? One word...stability. That again is something that can change in milliseconds online as its fickle perceptions and beliefs of the mob that determine the stability of a currency.

thoughts on cyprus? currencies can hit the fan these days. according to officials, the dollar was going to collapse if we didn't jam a few trillion newly minted ones into the system and fast back in 2008.

nevertheless, btc has a $billion dollar market cap, that's nothing. heck, visa prolly transacted a $billion in the time it takes me to write this sentence. a billion is cool to 20 year old internet dudes, a billion can and has been wiped off the record books in seconds, in the virtual world and the real world

certainly btc is still very tiny in contrast to the system and obviously a very risky proposition. but anything can collapse/needs stability to survive, i totally agree.

/

03-30-2013, 02:50 PM	#58
greg80 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,644	Bitcoin is NOTHING like gold. How can you claim that something that exists only 4 years has the same value as storage of wealth and security as gold? Gold has been a currency for thousands of years and millions of people have lost their lives over it over history. Gold is the main reason why Christopher Columbus discovered America and has driven men to the edge of the world. Bitcoin is produced by some geeks in their mothers basement and can be worthless tomorrow. There is no safer feeling than knowing you have few kilos of gold somewhere in a safe storage for rainy days. How safe can you feel with having bitcoin as your long term backup? Gold is very liquid, you can go to any real gold dealer with good delivery bars or bullion coins and get spot price for it, even spot +2% for some more popular bullion. __________________ Say no to GoDaddy and high renewal prices! Go with NameSilo - FREE private whois for life, $8.99 regstrations and renewals. Free redirects, emails, great control panel and more! NameSilo rocks! Last edited by greg80; 03-30-2013 at 02:57 PM..

03-30-2013, 07:32 PM	#70
CAHEK C.C.C.P. Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Novorossiya Posts: 6,721	There will be massive breakage in bitcoins. If your laptop crashes and you didn?t back up your bitcoins, well, you?re SOL. If someone steals you laptop that has 10,000 bitcoins on it you won on Bitcoin Poker, you?re SOL. Lost your USB drive with 500 bitcoins on it after a night out on the town? You?re SOL. __________________ Pharma from True-Meds. High converting shop in Europe and USA, fast payouts via BTC !!!

03-30-2013, 09:45 PM	#73
Joshua G dumb libs love censorship Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,198	as an aside, trust in money & banks that hold it is absolutely essential to the public, & also to economic viability. Bank runs & financial panics happen when the public loses that trust. One single hiccup in trust, its over. For this reason, i dont think there is a viable marketplace for 10,000 privately traded e-currencies. The public trusts gold, trusts the Fed & its reserve notes. I can easily see a scenario that cryptocurrencies are fronts for ponzis. The cryptography is highly technical, so its quite easy to dupe people with elegant language to imply a currency is trustworthy. Ponzis would scare the crap out of ordinary customers & sink the whole industry, even if bitcoins were 100% secure. there is already the egold & epass & ibill examples. I would personally forecast that cryptocurrencies will ultimately not be viable on a par with government backed currencies, which are highly regulated by governments, for the preceding reason. Which is not to say none would be viable at all, it would be like today where bitcoins are used in very specific markets. Last edited by Joshua G; 03-30-2013 at 09:49 PM..

03-30-2013, 10:37 PM	#77
Joshua G dumb libs love censorship Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,198	one more comment & im done. the fact that one can tumble bitcoins with others does not bode well for its viability with the US government. As soon as bitcoin, or any other ecurrency, becomes the chosen currency of the wealthy, & tax receipts start falling, & the IRS can no longer follow their money, its game over. The government will to do bitcoins the same thing they did to internet sports books, prevent any US banks from dealing with anyone who deals in bitcoins. So it might still take off for other nations. But should bitcoins start costing the IRS income, forget it as a viable currency for US mainstream transactions. Last edited by Joshua G; 03-30-2013 at 10:40 PM..

03-30-2013, 02:47 PM	#57
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 63,906	more::: Ripple credits, aka XRP or ripples, are the units used as a transaction fee to protect the Ripple payment system from malicious attacks. XRP is the proposed ISO 4217 currency code designated for Ripple. XRP as currently implemented has six digits of precision. The smallest unit is one millionth of an XRP ( 0.000001 ) and is call a "drop". That is: 1 XRP = 1,000,000 drops. XRP spent as transaction fees are destroyed. The default transaction fee is currently 10 drops. There should be enough XRP to last for thousands of years despite this destruction. If the value of XRP changes, the transaction fee can be adjusted by the consensus of the network. XRP are the only currency in the Ripple network that has no counter-party risk and can be sent to any account without a trust relationship. When the Ripple network was created, 100 billion XRP was created. The founders gave 80 billion XRP to the OpenCoin Inc. OpenCoin Inc. will develop the Ripple software, promote the Ripple payment system, give away XRP, and sell XRP. https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_credits

03-30-2013, 02:55 PM	#60
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 63,906

03-31-2013, 03:54 AM	#80
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 63,906	here's the thing about btc and competing/new/other cryptocurrencies- btc is open-source, it welcomes a better solution. have at it. anyone can take the original, check it out, see how its done and make it better, make it more secure, make the creation rate better, if it is better, or cooler or faster or whatever the community thinks, then the competition would take over and btc would take a back seat, current btc holders would lose their risky investments. but the fact is, btc is where it is today and able to support its own continually gaining traction because of its algorithm. maybe it is fancy enough to survive.