TheSquealer

When it comes to espionage, the first thing you should accept is that neither China, Russia or the USA for that matter are very forthright in their reporting to begin with. All that is known is what those governments want people to know (less so for the US in this case). There is virtually zero chance that either China or Russia let him do anything without first copying/recording/taking whatever intel he had to analyze. These aren't countries that give a shit about anyones rights.

All of what you are seeing is 100% politics from China and Russia. It has nothing to do with anyones rights, the rule of law or anything else. Its simply opportunity to gain and spend some political capital.

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Rochard

_Richard_

almost every revolution seems to start with a 'straw that broke the camels back'

might explain why Snowden is so important releasing info already released

TheSquealer

Was he given an illegal order? What specifically was illegal about his instructions ? There is an awful lot of overly vague accusations in all of this, very few specifics. Perhaps you, as someone who's career largely depends on specifics, might enlighten us?

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Rochard

DWB

Crossing international borders is not something taken lightly these days, especially with a revoked passport. If you or I tried to leave any country in the world with an invalid passport, they wouldn't let us leave. In fact, we would probably be arrested on the spot and wouldn't be permitted to pass immigration and board the plane. The fact he made it to Russia and they are going to let him leave, is amazing.

You can't even get in and out of a shit hole like Cambodia these days without having a valid passport and giving a fingerprint scan. I honestly can't fathom how he is getting around with such a price on his head, unless he has help.

baddog

Ecuador has now issued him a "special refugee travel document."

TheSquealer

I dont believe you have to pass through Passport Control on a transient flight and technically are not entering the country.

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Rochard

DWB

OK, so lets say he was lying. He didn't have such access and he was in fact a low level peon working for the NSA. Lets agree and just say he mopped the floors there, nothing more.

Then why all the fuss? What information could a janitor working at the NSA possibly have to cause all this international ruckus?

Bman

ding ding...I dont think we will see a typical war revolution but an idealogical shift

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dyna mo

you're pretty convinced he didn't operate on his own accord eh? he has handlers dictating his every move?

baddog

Troll on.

dyna mo

well, that just goes to the point, right? dude is jetsetting about with a fucking revoked passport and a laptop loaded with intel. easy breezy lemon squeezy

theking

You are correct about your "understanding". It is my "understanding" that the three branches of government...with judicial over view in particular...determines what is within the constitution and what is not. It is my "understanding" that...at this point in time...the current actions of the NSA has been found to be within the constitution by all three branches of government.

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DWB

For transit, you are correct, but will address that below in more detail. But his passport was revoked while in Hong Kong, which rendered him illegal instantly, then Ecuador stepped up and gave him refugee travel documents so he could leave. That within itself is incredible.

Regarding Russia, he has to have a Russian Transit Visa. They either issued one based on his now revolved passport, or they issued one on his refugee status. Either way, this is what you need:

1. Your original passport with at least 2 blank visa-designated pages (passport must be valid for at least 6 months after intended departure date from Russia).
2. Two copies of Russian visa application form, completed and signed.
3. Two passport-size photos signed on the back.
2. Visa to the country of destination, if required.
3. Tickets for the whole itinerary.

Which leads me back to my original point, one does not simply pick up the phone and demand refugee travel documents from Ecuador, or bypass Russian Transit Visa rules. That is almost unheard of. Which leads me to believe he is every bit what he says he is and knows every bit what he says he knows. Some low level NSA janitor would not get such treatment.

TheSquealer

No. I don't believe anyone is dictating his every move. What i was saying before is that his "plan" might not have went much past "get to Hong Kong and do x". For example "you get to Hong Kong, bring this info and we'll give you $4,000,000.00 and guarantee your safety" - which very often then turns into "welcome, thanks for the stuff, we got some bad news for you,... funny story...". Remember the most important fact. The only leverage he has is against the USA and he played those cards all at once. To anyone else (China, Russia, Ecuador etc), he's just a tool to use until it has no use.

I don't think there is much point in reading into anything said or done. For Russia, China and Jullien Assange, It's all self serving theater. Much of the truth won't be known for years.

The only thing I will bet money on is that he will end up back in the US and be tried for what he's done. There is zero chance the government will let this go without a severe response.

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Rochard

DWB

You asked me why I believe him so I dumbed it down as if he was lying and did not have the access he claims to have. So now I don't believe him and he is a low level admin, who probably isn't even very smart. That seems to be the common thread here so I'll roll with that. For all we know, that may be the truth.

So I ask again, why all the international fuss over someone who didn't have the kind of access and information he claims to have had?

TheSquealer

Ah shit... you're right. I've flown into Russia close to 100 times. Forgot about them implementing transit visas and that was maybe 10 years ago.

And you're also right about the passport.... you can't leave any country without a passport

Anyway, as i've been saying. All that happens with respect to him as i've been telling dyna mo, is what China/Russia want to happen and agreed would happen.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

dyna mo

handlers up to a point. this crossed my mind, he was selling the intel and got left hanging after they got the stuff. could be, i would not doubt that out of 25,000+ snoops with top secret security clearance that there has been intel sold. i'm having a hard time reconciling that with his behavior though........he then panicked and contacted the wp/telegraph? i guess eh. should be a pretty good movie!

baddog

According to RT and Al Jazeera, he has not even come up to the gates to come in to Russia yet. He is hanging in the halls.

I would guess because they don't know what he stole and is carrying with him would be a major factor. And just because he did not have all the access he says he had does not mean that he did not have access to some stuff or [more likely] may have gained unauthorized access.

Oh, and wikileaks is who has set him up.

theking

I concur.

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TheSquealer

I believe its in China's interests politically to have him come out and make the US Government look like the assholes they are (but all governments are). However, someone had to make it well worth his while to just get on a plane and say goodbye forever to everything he ever knew and most likely his freedom.

Obama had just got done attacking them for their Cyberwarfare and constant hacking of US systems. Obama is also a pussy, so it's quite likely that they attacked right back via this guy in my opinion. It's also highly unlikely this all happened on the spur of the moment. What might have happened on the spur of the moment however is a phone call that was "be on flight 854 to Hong Kong in 3hrs or the deal is off".

There are endless reasons why things wouldn't make sense.. but that's only because we are attempting to apply our own understandings and perspectives to events - not only that but to inaccurate and incomplete information and that's not overly effective when applying those understandings to things we do not understand or have little to no experience with.

All i know with 100% certainty based on my experience is that neither China or Russia is doing anything unless its to their advantage. There is little to no chance that they don't have possession of everything he is traveling with.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

Juicy D. Links

I wuz here

TheSquealer

You can't leave an airport to board an international flight without valid travel documents.

Even the ticket desk is to check and verify these facts when buying a ticket and all airlines agree to fines from the destination country for this.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

theking

I watched the congressional hearings and his boss said that he did not have authorized access to do some of what he has claimed he could do but as I recall he was vague about what he may have accessed with out the authorization to do so.

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crockett

Edit..wrong guy

TheSquealer

Huh? Really? I'm a "conspiracy guy" now??

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

DWB

You don't hang out in the halls at the Moscow airport. Either you have an entry visa or a transit visa, and proceed to the proper area, immigration or the transit area. I think what you meant to say is that he is in the transit area.

Now, he didn't catch the flight to Havana, so that means he's still there. In order to get a transit visa, you have to have a destination and show either an onward visa or ticket. To get into Cuba you also need a visa (tourist card), so he may have had that and got it in Hong Kong. However, he missed that flight, so now there is a good chance he is in some violation of his transit visa.

Russian transit visas are valid for 72 hours, so keep an eye on that. I believe he's been there for two days already, no? If he is there longer than 72 hours then they are no doubt making an exception for him, for whatever reason.

Joe Obenberger

Issues of constitutionality and legality are litigated one case at a time, one issue at a time. Many of the issues Snowden raises, if not all of them, have never been litigated - because the extent of the surveillance was unknown, classified, protected by threats to prosecute anyone who might tell the American people what was going on. It was this kind of judicial oversight that the intelligence community was always afraid of, and it's why they engineered a system such as it is. Perhaps now cases and litigants can emerge, the programs can be examined in the full light of day, and the courts can determine whether our right to privacy has been violated without reasonable cause. It's about time that the government becomes accountable to the people and the people's courts that protect them.

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_Richard_

if you compare the current threads to ones 2-5 years ago, you can actually see it happen

once these talking robots move on, we can really get the discussion started

DWB

MaDalton

danke schön

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Joe Obenberger

I posted this in response to the oversimplfying post of an earlier poster who was under the misapprehension that it was enough to say that Snowden violated regulations and orders, as if that fully resolved the issue. It does not.

Time will tell, I hope, whether the Constitution and the First Amendment in particular mandate a whistleblower's exception to orders and regulations that mandate confidentiality. Were it otherwise, the secrecy thus coerced by penal sanctions would prevent an effective opportunity for injured members of the public to learn about the injury, proceed in court to their remedies, and to have the operation of unconstitutional laws restrained by the courts.

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crockett

No I thought it was the other guy that said that.. 8)

Edited soon as I saw.. But guess your page was already loaded.

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TheSquealer

haha.. no worries

back to the regularly scheduled programming.

__________________
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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

baddog

He has not even approached the gates at customs, so he has not left the airport or entered Russia.

Which is my point.

I was watching RT, did not catch the name of the area with their accents, did not hear the words "transit area" though. The video made it look like he is kind of hanging in the halls; the point being he has not approached the Russian version of customs, so has not had to present papers to anyone. If I am to believe RT.

DWB

They don't allow you to just loiter in the airport like that. Perhaps they made an exception for him, but generally speaking, you can't do that.

He is probably in the transit area. The status of his visa now he didn't go to Havana is anyone's guess, but the length of the visa is 72 hours either way. So he has to go somewhere tomorrow unless he is getting special privileges. My guess, he is getting those privileges.

TheSquealer

News reports his passport was revoked before his arrival to Moscow, so he's in their airport without a passport. If true, that means he is not there legally and is without either a passport or transit visa. Though i have never passed through there needing a transit visa... the fact that you need one means that everyone on the flight went through passport control to waiting areas. Hard to do without a valid passport.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

baddog

Perhaps? Yeah, I think there is an exception being made. I am sure you can't just hang out in limbo for 2+ days in most circumstances. This gives Putin a way to say, "hey, he isn't even in my country yet." Which he is saying.

DWB

If that turns out to be true, then he probably doesn't have a lot of bargaining chips to be doing what he is doing right now. Logical would say he has shown the right people enough information to make them believe him so that he can get from A to B without being arrested, and get residency in another country.

Time will tell. The more info he has, the better protected he will probably be.

baddog

Might be a good reason to say you could wiretap the pres if you wanted.

theking

It is my understanding that the NSA is using a part of the Patriot Act as legal authorization for the gathering of phone meta data and Prism and it is my understanding that the Federal Supreme Court has reviewed the Patriot Act.

It is my understanding that the gathering of the phone meta data and Prism have over sight by the FISA Court and issue warrants when called upon to do so.

I personally have been aware of both programs for some years but I...like you...did not know the full extent of the programs.

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DWB

That I agree with, which takes me back to why I believe what he says. He has to have something of value, otherwise he'd be a nobody who they would throw under the bus. Criminals get caught all the time at airports around the world, so if he is a criminal, it should be an open and shut case where he is arrested and sent back to the USA. The fact everyone is helping him is what leads me to believe what he says is true.

DWB

You would think those helping him would want to see something. Proof of some kind. Any yahoo can claim he can do this or that, but for these people to jump through hoops for him... I believe proof has been given. I could be wrong of course, but in terms of international travel and protection, Snowden is walking on water right now.

Joe Obenberger

When the government goes before FISA for a warrant, it's an ex parte proceeding in secret - meaning that no one is before the court except a DOJ lawyer. There is no one present who might stand in to object on any basis. And because the order itself is secret, only the responding party will know of its existence - the service provider, never the account holder. If the service provider does not contest it, no one else ever can contest what they don't know about. It's ugly and pernicious. In this case, if I recall, the service providers have all made public comments denying that they know anything about it. Maybe they are telling the truth. Maybe the systems were hacked into without their knowledge. God knows. I don't.

The Patriot Act, I'm told, is as big as a phone book. Maybe that's hyperbolie, but it's quite big. At the time it was passed, many congressmen admitted that they had not even started to read it. For sure, not all of it has been litigated. It's been amended - and it's an extremely complex document. The odds are approximately zero that all of its provisions have been litigated and determined to be constitutionally valid.

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Rochard

None of this is impressive. He claims he had access, but we don't know this for sure.

As for him fleeing the country and going to countries that extradition policies with the US, well, that's not difficult to plan out at all.

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Rochard

The US government has told us that "300 Americans" have had their phone records targeted.

So Americans have in fact been targeted, but we don't know why. Is this because of active terrorist related cases, or because local law enforcement looking into local crimes?

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Rochard

You mean countries where citizens have very little rights?

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dyna mo

it's specifically section 215 of the patriot act


As we all scramble to become cybersecurity scholars, here's a handy guide to Section 215, the part of the Patriot Act that authorized the National Security Agency to collect cell data from Verizon and also possibly data for its PRISM program.
What is Section 215?
To understand Section 215, you first need to read Section 103(a) of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which established the FISA court system that grants the government permission to conduct electronic surveillance.

The relevant section:
The Chief Justice of the United States shall publicly designate seven district court judges from seven of the United States judicial circuits who shall constitute a court which shall have jurisdiction to hear applications for and grant orders approving electronic surveillance anywhere within the United States under the procedures set forth in this Act, except that no judge designated under this subsection shall hear the same application for electronic surveillance under this Act which has been denied previously by another judge designated under this subsection.
Under Section 215, the government can apply to the FISA court to compel businesses (like Verizon) to hand over user records. Here's what Slate wrote about Section 215 in a 2003 guide to the Patriot Act:
Section 215 modifies the rules on records searches. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism.

As Section 215 stands today—in the reauthorized version of the Patriot Act passed in 2005—"tangible things" (aka user data) sought in a FISA order "must be 'relevant' to an authorized preliminary or full investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a U.S. person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities." It also established congressional oversight for the FISA program, requiring the DOJ to conduct an audit of the program and the "effectiveness" of Section 215, and to submit an unclassified report on the audit to the House and Senate Committees on the Judiciary and Intelligence.

That was during the Bush administration.
How has the Patriot Act changed since President Obama was elected?

Not very much. Sen. Obama voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act in 2005, a decision he defended on the campaign trail in 2008 with the caveat that some provisions contained in Section 215, like allowing the government to go through citizens' library records, "went way overboard." But in 2011 President Obama signed a bill to extend the Patriot Act's sunset clause to June 1, 2015—with Section 215 intact in its 2005 form.

Did the NSA also use Section 215 to obtain Internet data for its PRISM program?
This is less clear, but the leaked PRISM program documents seem to indicate yes. The PRISM presentation seems to imply that Section 215 applies not only to phone metadata but also to email, chats, photos, video, logins, and other online user data. Referring to the type of data the government is allowed to collect as "tangible things" allows a pretty wide berth for interpretation.

Rochard

This is my problem with all of this. So far all we have is some rather vague statements and no proof or any wrong doing. Even when the press digs in this, they are finding that all of these actions are covered by US law.

Usually I don't give a crap what they do, and if it's in the name of terrorism I'm usually all for it. But this discussion eventually lead me to a four page "warrant" from Congress that seems to be a "blanket" warrant for a six month period - I believe it was for "Information related to terrorism" from Verizon. This might be legal, but I believe it is against the spirit of the law - they should a warrant for each case... Not a blanket warrant for "anything they believe is related to terrorism".

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Rochard

A) There you go, perfectly legal.
B) Holy shit, we are fucked. LOL. Even I can see that.

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_Richard_

china and russian drone strike their own children?

must have missed that in the news