The Brits spy program is worse than the US's

[crockett]

With Snowden latest release its said that the British equlivant to Prisim called Tempora is the first "grab everything".

They save every bit of data that goes through the UK before it's optimized. Meaning anything that is downloaded they have. They can save 3 days worth of internet traffic before it's optimized.

As side note the official partners to the US with this are the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Known as the five eyes.

Everyone feel safer?


m.theage.com.au/world/snowden-reveals-australias-links-to-us-spy-web-20130708-2plyg.html

[slapass]

Well it does make the us look less bad.

[nexcom28]

About 850,000 people have security clearance to access the data.

WHAAT!

[Dankasaur]

Only an idiot wouldn't suspect their government to be spying on them...

[seeandsee]

They can spy me 24/7, i will also install spycam in my bathroom

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Dankasaur

Only an idiot wouldn't suspect their government to be spying on them...

Only a fool would be OK with it if they did.

[Rochard]

All countries have this. Germany does too. Germany has been running a satellite facility to spy on Russia for the past forty years. Even Snowden admits the Germans are in on it.

This is no longer about the US spying on the rest of the world. It's all countries spying on everyone. We all knew this was going on so it's not new news.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Rochard

All countries have this. Germany does too. Germany has been running a satellite facility to spy on Russia for the past forty years. Even Snowden admits the Germans are in on it.

This is no longer about the US spying on the rest of the world. It's all countries spying on everyone. We all knew this was going on so it's not new news.

so because governments have been spying on each other, it's ok that they spy on us?

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

so because governments have been spying on each other, it's ok that they spy on us?

With a warrant, they can do whatever they want.

[klinton]

Originally Posted by crockett

With Snowden latest release its said that the British equlivant to Prisim called Tempora is the first "grab everything".

They save every bit of data that goes through the UK before it's optimized. Meaning anything that is downloaded they have. They can save 3 days worth of internet traffic before it's optimized.

As side note the official partners to the US with this are the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Known as the five eyes.

Everyone feel safer?


m.theage.com.au/world/snowden-reveals-australias-links-to-us-spy-web-20130708-2plyg.html

that guy is HERO...true hacker....I wish him all the best

of course, I knew that govs are spying...Snowden started to revail details...and i'm hungry for more details

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Rochard

With a warrant, they can do whatever they want.

obviously.

i was referring to all the data collected without a warrant.

[ilnjscb]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

so because governments have been spying on each other, it's ok that they spy on us?

I guess they are saying, lie back and take it.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by klinton

that guy is HERO...true hacker....I wish him all the best

of course, I knew that govs are spying...Snowden started to revail details...and i'm hungry for more details

not really. heros don't run and hide.

he was hired into the intel community as a security guard and finagled his way into a mid-level it tech with top-level security clearance, he copied a bunch of intel he already had clearance for. no hacking needed. he's a leaker.

worse though, he then makes the event about himself and not about the reveal by running away to other countries and not friendly countries either but authoritarian nations.

if he had done what other leakers have done, stayed here and let the process carry out, the story would be about that process and the information that comes from it, not about where in the world is waldo snowden.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by ilnjscb

I guess they are saying, lie back and take it.

well these governments also drone strike each other 'cause it's momentarily prudent'

is that 'ok' too?

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

obviously.

i was referring to all the data collected without a warrant.

What data has been collected without a warrant? I am still waiting for Snowden to say "On this date my boss Mr. X ordered me to conduct a search of information on an American citizen named Bob without a warrent or legal right".

I have yet to hear this.

[Dankasaur]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

not really. heros don't run and hide.

he was hired into the intel community as a security guard and finagled his way into a mid-level it tech with top-level security clearance, he copied a bunch of intel he already had clearance for. no hacking needed. he's a leaker.

worse though, he then makes the event about himself and not about the reveal by running away to other countries and not friendly countries either but authoritarian nations.

if he had done what other leakers have done, stayed here and let the process carry out, the story would be about that process and the information that comes from it, not about where in the world is waldo snowden.

Fucking this.

Everyone is saying Snowden is a hero, no he's not. He's a fucking scumbag, dude wasn't some innocent tech guy who overheard something bad, he intentionally got into his position to steal intel, now he's "running for his life".

[klinton]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

not really. heros don't run and hide.

he was hired into the intel community as a security guard and finagled his way into a mid-level it tech with top-level security clearance, he copied a bunch of intel he already had clearance for. no hacking needed. he's a leaker.

worse though, he then makes the event about himself and not about the reveal by running away to other countries and not friendly countries either but authoritarian nations.

if he had done what other leakers have done, stayed here and let the process carry out, the story would be about that process and the information that comes from it, not about where in the world is waldo snowden.

don't worry , more info will leak.

yes i'm sorry that he is not like henry david thoreau (do you know who he was ? ;-) ) and didn't put himself to prison as "hero" of civil disobedience...better for him, no tortures.

by hacker - i mean in hacker spirit

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

ADG

[pornguy]

I begin every mornings skype to one of my employees with " Good morning NSA guys "

I know they love the shemale conversations and photos we pass around.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by klinton

don't worry , more info will leak.

yes i'm sorry that he is not like henry david thoreau (do you know who he was ? ;-) ) and didn't put himself to prison as "hero" of civil disobedience...better for him, no tortures.

by hacker - i mean in hacker spirit

i'm sure more will leak and i hope so too. rip the lid off the sucka. also, he's making shit up too, or someone in this news cycle is. he is currently being portrayed as knowing everything about everything nsa, with comments re: germany and such, but with 850,000 snoops, snowden certainly had only a slice of intel he had access to.

thanks for the clarification re: hacker in spirit, i can see that. that's not going to bode well for him in a more mainstream public setting, most people frown upon hackers. i understand what you are saying though, he could certainly be a hero to an subset of society that appreciates that *spirit* but i think time will show that by snowden himself making his actions look like the spirit of hacking, he's alienated himself.

every single one of his actions should be in the spirit of helping americans. that's what his own very words were way back when the telegraph 1st broke his story.

the thing is, i don't really give a shit about snowden, i give a shit about the shit. and the reason i am saying that and for having to sort this part out is due to snowden himself.

he can still return and face his accusers, he can leak all the rest of the docs in an automated way, he can reveal more in public in a trial, pre-trail, etc, he can keep this in the news cycle by returning. otherwise, i think the media will move on to plane crashes, etc.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Rochard

With a warrant, they can do whatever they want.

They don't have warrants. How is it you keep missing that fact?

[crockett]

To those that keep saying Snowden was wrong for running...

I give you the words of Daniel Ellsberg the leaker of the Pentagon papers.

Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don?t agree. The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago.

The full article which is worth the read..

washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html?hpid=z2

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Rochard

What data has been collected without a warrant? I am still waiting for Snowden to say "On this date my boss Mr. X ordered me to conduct a search of information on an American citizen named Bob without a warrent or legal right".

I have yet to hear this.

and since you haven't heard that, it doesn't exist?

what happens if you don't want to hear it?

still doesn't exist?

we both know you haven't been arguing for the past month over warrant-wire taps.. so what have you been talking about?

[Dankasaur]

Originally Posted by crockett

To those that keep saying Snowden was wrong for running...

I give you the words of Daniel Ellsberg the leaker of the Pentagon papers.



The full article which is worth the read..

washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html?hpid=z2

Except his running has now become a "where will Snowden seek asylum next?" instead of what's truly important, the information he leaked.

If he stayed and faced the consequences like Ellsberg did, surely the people would rally and protect him, right?

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by crockett

To those that keep saying Snowden was wrong for running...

I give you the words of Daniel Ellsberg the leaker of the Pentagon papers.



The full article which is worth the read..

washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html?hpid=z2

interesting opinion. unfortunately, his opinion appears to be skewed to his case because the usa of today is very much not like he describes and the nsa leaker that proves that is thomas drake, the person most articles i've read that make comparisons use, and he doesn't even mention drake in his opinion.

nevertheless, he was not penalized in any major way then and neither was drake just a few short years ago.

imo, the drake case is more similar for comparison purposes.


Thomas Andrews Drake is a former senior executive of the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), a decorated United States Air Force and United States Navy veteran, and a whistleblower.
In 2010 the government alleged that Drake 'mishandled' documents, one of the few such Espionage Act cases in U.S. history. Drake's defenders claim that he was instead being persecuted for challenging the Trailblazer Project. He is the 2011 recipient of the Ridenhour Prize for Truth-Telling and co-recipient of the Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence (SAAII) award.

On June 9, 2011, all 10 original charges against him were dropped. Drake rejected several deals because he refused to "plea bargain with the truth". He eventually pled to one misdemeanor count for exceeding authorized use of a computer

[klinton]

I hope that his case and leaks will start serious public debate....and people will start to use cryptography....

can't blame NSA/ goverments for being what they are...thats their nature...to control everything...but there are ways to make their "work" much much harder

[crockett]

Originally Posted by Dankasaur

Except his running has now become a "where will Snowden seek asylum next?" instead of what's truly important, the information he leaked.

If he stayed and faced the consequences like Ellsberg did, surely the people would rally and protect him, right?

Bradly Manning ring any bells? Assuming you weren't being sarcastic.

The fact of the matter, since 9/11 the people dont have the ability to protect a leaker much less will rallying do anything for him.

The govt is not scared of the people..

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by crockett

Bradly Manning ring any bells? Assuming you weren't being sarcastic.

The fact of the matter, since 9/11 the people dont have the ability to protect a leaker much less will rallying do anything for him.

The govt is not scared of the people..

this is exactly why snowden's handling this has distorted the issues. we're on a tangent in your thread that was supposed to be about the british snoopers are even worse than the us.

misson accomplished snowden!

certainly you would agree that he is to blame for this. regardless of what anyone *thinks* would happen to him, solitariy confinment, the worst shit they did to manning, so what, because if he was truly genuine he would have stayed here and sat in his private room and gone from there.

didn't he think of that prior? certainly, that's why he ran.

fact is, manning is alive. don't get me wrong, he's been through it, as i understand it, but his case is military and we can go ahead and debate the differences that makes if you want, but i'd rather get back to your original topic.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

this is exactly why snowden's handling this has distorted the issues. we're on a tangent in your thread that was supposed to be about the british snoopers are even worse than the us.

misson accomplished snowden!

certainly you would agree that he is to blame for this. regardless of what anyone *thinks* would happen to him, solitariy confinment, the worst shit they did to manning, so what, because if he was truly genuine he would have stayed here and sat in his private room and gone from there.

didn't he think of that prior? certainly, that's why he ran.

fact is, manning is alive. don't get me wrong, he's been through it, as i understand it, but his case is military and we can go ahead and debate the differences that makes if you want, but i'd rather get back to your original topic.

Originally Posted by crockett

With Snowden latest release its said that the British equlivant to Prisim called Tempora is the first "grab everything".
m.theage.com.au/world/snowden-reveals-australias-links-to-us-spy-web-20130708-2plyg.html

it's info snowden has released.. thus the original topic..

[Jel]

I can't blame snowden for 'running and hiding' etc, and certainly don't think he is less of a man for not wanting to face the ton of shit certain paople would dearly love to, and give, him. I can't see the logical reasoning of criticising him for not 'being a man about it' and doing some cell-time etc. Like 'well done on opening the public's eyes to the depth of this (and let's remember 90% of the people on earth have NO idea as to the extent of what govt's are capable of - just because here on a board where almost everyone is self employed, driven, and fairly intelligent it's not exactly a surprise, there are hundreds of millions of people who it IS a surprise to, and being uneducated on any issue isn't 'wrong' in any way, it's exactly what is is - uneducated) - but, while we're all sitting here in a comfy house/office, what would impress us is for you to do some jail time, and leave yourself open to some kind of 'accident'.

I just don't get it - what am I missing? Should ordinary people not know what the people they put in office, and whom are paid by them, are doing? I can't agree with that train of thought

[crockett]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

this is exactly why snowden's handling this has distorted the issues. we're on a tangent in your thread that was supposed to be about the british snoopers are even worse than the us.

misson accomplished snowden!

certainly you would agree that he is to blame for this. regardless of what anyone *thinks* would happen to him, solitariy confinment, the worst shit they did to manning, so what, because if he was truly genuine he would have stayed here and sat in his private room and gone from there.

didn't he think of that prior? certainly, that's why he ran.

fact is, manning is alive. don't get me wrong, he's been through it, as i understand it, but his case is military and we can go ahead and debate the differences that makes if you want, but i'd rather get back to your original topic.

No I don't blame him for the lack of attention of the American public or for the media that caters to the govt's beck and call.

Then of course there are guys like you that try to white wash everything that comes out. No matter what and try to derail the topic.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by crockett

No I don't blame him for the lack of attention of the American public or for the media that caters to the govt's beck and call.

Then of course there are guys like you that try to white wash everything that comes out. No matter what and try to derail the topic.

you are completely incapable of carrying on adult conversation. too funny. white wash everything, that doesn't even make any sense. is that it? that's all you could come up with, you're interpretation of my comments is that

To whitewash is a metaphor meaning to gloss over or cover up vices, crimes or scandals or to exonerate by means of a perfunctory investigation or through biased presentation of data. It is especially used in the context of corporations, governments or other organizations.

:-)

cover up crimes? i'm saying face your alleged crimes, history shows americans are lenient on leakers.

you are the one trying to white wash this.



/

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Jel

I can't blame snowden for 'running and hiding' etc, and certainly don't think he is less of a man for not wanting to face the ton of shit certain paople would dearly love to, and give, him. I can't see the logical reasoning of criticising him for not 'being a man about it' and doing some cell-time etc. Like 'well done on opening the public's eyes to the depth of this (and let's remember 90% of the people on earth have NO idea as to the extent of what govt's are capable of - just because here on a board where almost everyone is self employed, driven, and fairly intelligent it's not exactly a surprise, there are hundreds of millions of people who it IS a surprise to, and being uneducated on any issue isn't 'wrong' in any way, it's exactly what is is - uneducated) - but, while we're all sitting here in a comfy house/office, what would impress us is for you to do some jail time, and leave yourself open to some kind of 'accident'.

I just don't get it - what am I missing? Should ordinary people not know what the people they put in office, and whom are paid by them, are doing? I can't agree with that train of thought

he's not in the military, he's not charged with anything similar to the heinous military crimes manning was charged with, he isn't required to follow any military protocols like manning and could have easily made presenting himself here just as dramatic as his authoritarian nation travels thereby keeping the focus on the revealed info and not on where's waldo/asylum drama/etc. that is doing 2 things:

1. focusing the media on snowden.
2. defocusing the media from the data he revealed.

it's not about whether or not i'm impressed with him or not, he's a jackass just like the rest of us, if others can be impressed by his simply revealing the data and running for cover, i don't think there should be a problem with other people saying they would be impressed if he handled it different and based on the historical data of whistleblowers and leakers in the usa.

more importantly, snowden's own words are even more telling, didn't do it for the 90% of the world's population, he says he did it for americans. his words, not mine.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

it's info snowden has released.. thus the original topic..

no.

that's an introductory phrase.

Introductory phrases are groups of words that introduce the action of the sentence and provide important contextual information. But, they cannot stand alone. Such introductory elements include prepositional phrases, participial phrases, and conjunctive adverbs.

[crockett]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

you are completely incapable of carrying on adult conversation. too funny. white wash everything, that doesn't even make any sense. is that it? that's all you could come up with, you're interpretation of my comments is that






:-)

cover up crimes? i'm saying face your alleged crimes, history shows americans are lenient on leakers.

you are the one trying to white wash this.



/

All you do is rehash the same argument in every topic. Aside from the useless copy and paste filler that you seem to think people actually read.

Do you even have an original thought?

[Jel]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

he's not in the military, he's not charged with anything similar to the heinous military crimes manning was charged with, he isn't required to follow any military protocols like manning and could have easily made presenting himself here just as dramatic as his authoritarian nation travels thereby keeping the focus on the revealed info and not on where's waldo/asylum drama/etc. that is doing 2 things:

1. focusing the media on snowden.
2. defocusing the media from the data he revealed.

it's not about whether or not i'm impressed with him or not, he's a jackass just like the rest of us, if others can be impressed by his simply revealing the data and running for cover, i don't think there should be a problem with other people saying they would be impressed if he handled it different and based on the historical data of whistleblowers and leakers in the usa.

more importantly, snowden's own words are even more telling, didn't do it for the 90% of the world's population, he says he did it for americans. his words, not mine.

ah ok, I get where you're coming from more now

I can still see it from his POV as to why he felt the need to run away/hide/whatever you want to call it (collectively, not you personally I mean). I'd be wary as fuck about truly/really pissing off the gov't, and agencies etc.

And yeah the thing about doing it for americans - meh, I can gloss over that, and put it down to the OTT patriotism a lot of americans have *based on what I see/hear/read*, which isn't a dig at any americans here, it's just the way it seems to be over there. I still say well done to the bloke, with the caveat that I'm not completely versed in the whole thing

[epitome]

Originally Posted by Rochard

All countries have this. Germany does too. Germany has been running a satellite facility to spy on Russia for the past forty years. Even Snowden admits the Germans are in on it.

This is no longer about the US spying on the rest of the world. It's all countries spying on everyone. We all knew this was going on so it's not new news.

The conversation isn't about countries spying on each other. Everyone knows that happens and most are OK with it.

The conversation is about governments spying on every move of its citizens.

You know, Big Brother, that thing everyone was afraid of until Snowden confirmed it. Now it's indifference.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by crockett

All you do is rehash the same argument in every topic. Aside from the useless copy and paste filler that you seem to think people actually read.

Do you even have an original thought?

you are kidding right? pretty sure you took full advantage of my thinking on the bolivian jet story in real time to try and insult my original thinking on that. that's just the 1 time i feel like typing up.

it's not really fun chatting with you.

i tried it my way, chatting about hot topics and feeling free to share brainstorming thought patterns, and possibilites on something none of us know jack shit about nor will we ever, but that didn't/doesn't work.
i tried it your way, acting like retarded children that can only intrpret events in black & white and that drove me nuts, so i'm out for that.

oh well. enjoy your evening.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Jel

ah ok, I get where you're coming from more now

I can still see it from his POV as to why he felt the need to run away/hide/whatever you want to call it (collectively, not you personally I mean). I'd be wary as fuck about truly/really pissing off the gov't, and agencies etc.

And yeah the thing about doing it for americans - meh, I can gloss over that, and put it down to the OTT patriotism a lot of americans have *based on what I see/hear/read*, which isn't a dig at any americans here, it's just the way it seems to be over there. I still say well done to the bloke, with the caveat that I'm not completely versed in the whole thing

the american thing isn't really about patriotism though. it's a lack of follow-through. when actions don't match up to words, people begin to question integrity, that's human nature. he should know that and know that consequently, by going to russia, in particular, calls into question his integrity.

let's not forget, the guy is a fucking spook to begin with.

[dyna mo]

re: manning


8 reasons not to join the (United States) military


1. You will lose almost all of your civil rights.

You will lose the right to free speech, the right to assembly (at least, the right to assemble with any group that opposes the agenda of the military). You’ll lose the right to work a second job at any business the military disagrees with. You’ll lose the right to enter businesses (including many night clubs) that the military disagrees with. You’ll lose the right to self-determination. You won’t be able to quit your job when you’ve reached the point where you hate it or disagree with it. Your home life will affect your work life. You can be demoted or even lose your job for legal trouble you get into on your private time. There will be limits to what kinds of tattoos you can get and where you can get them. There will be limits to what kind of piercings you can get and even what kind of civilian clothing you can wear on base. You can’t even make a private sex tape. Just to be safe, Article 134 or the Uniform Code of Military Justice that says pretty much anything you do can be considered against the law; someone in your chain of command just has to say that some thing you did was bad, and that makes it against the rules. See for yourself:

““Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.“”

You’ll lose many more rights listed in the Uniform Code of Military Justice that nobody will go out of their way to tell you about until after you’ve signed your soul away. And if you ever complain you’ll be told, “You knew exactly what you were getting into when you signed up.”

[ottopottomouse]

In a time where a large percentage of people are perfectly happy recording everything they do and documenting their entire life publicly online as soon as they can these sort of revelations about what anyone does online being snooped on are going to be far less important to the average person than both the need to boost their own ego and to satisfy their nosiness.