So what if a tiny minority in America owns most of the wealth... - GoFuckYourself.com

$5 submissions · 12-16-2013, 04:44 PM

So what if this is true... Are people mad when only a very tiny fraction of the population can play in the NFL, NBA, or have their own late night talk shows? Why do people get bent out of shape regarding disparities in wealth when there are so many other disparities in life like looks, dunking ability, running ability, creative abilities, getting chicks/guys, you name it?

Assuming the 20% that own 80% (pareto principle) got theirs LEGITIMATELY and ETHICALLY, why give them grief?

Would doing anything else be IMMORAL because it violates the Law of Cause and Effect? ie., if I want a big mansion in Malibu (effect), I have to plan hard, work hard, take risks, constantly solve problems/innovate/network (cause)....

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 12-16-2013, 04:57 PM

Your graph is too generous...

Quote:

It's getting harder to shock people with stats about income inequality.

Americans know they live in a two-tier country -- one where the uber-super-ultra-rich are leaving the rest of us behind; where, as Michael Moore famously put it, 400 of the richest people control the same amount of wealth as 150 million others; where, as President Obama said in a speech on Wednesday, the "average CEO has gotten a raise of nearly 40% since 2009, but the average American earns less than he or she did in 1999."

"Even though our businesses are creating new jobs and have broken record profits," the president said in his prepared remarks, "nearly all the income gains of the past ten years have continued to flow to the top 1%."

The fairness of the widening rich-poor gap, or the lack thereof, has been discussed far less than the number soup. Yet it's a crucial question -- perhaps the central question -- for America to consider. The fairness gap is the basis for a wide range of policies, from the tax code to education; health care to the minimum wage.

So is extreme inequality amoral?

To think this through, I called up four smart people -- Nigel Warburton, a freelance philosopher and writer, and host of the (wonderful) Philosophy Bites podcast; Arthur Brooks, president of the American Enterprise Institute and author of "Wealth and Justice"; Thomas Pogge, director of the Global Justice Program at Yale; and Kentaro Toyama, researcher at the University of California at Berkeley.

Each offered a range of interesting and nuanced views. But to make this column as un-wonky as possible, I've broken down their arguments into a few, (hopefully) easy-to-chew-on talking points you can use to fight about inequality with your friends.
Bring these up at your next dinner party and let me know how it goes.

Inequality isn't a moral problem; opportunity is

In this school of thought, it doesn't matter if the mayor of New York City is worth $27 billion (he is) as long as everyone in the city has an equal chance to succeed. That's the view of Brooks, from the American Enterprise Institute. I asked him about that city, which is more unequal than any other metro in the U.S.

"The truth is there are a lot of really, really wealthy people there. Great! That's a morally neutral concept," he said. But not all of them have an equal opportunity at success, he said, in part because schools don't perform well in all neighborhoods. That's morally bankrupt. (Check out this wild map that shows the chances a kid at the bottom of the income ladder would have of climbing to the top. In Atlanta, where I live, a kid in the bottom fifth of income earners has only a 4% chance -- 4%! -- of making it into the top fifth of income earners.) Fix economic mobility, Brooks said, not inequality. And let the rich do their thing.

Inequality turns us into 'Downton Abbey'

This isn't just about income; it's about class-based psychology. Extreme income inequality, even if it's derived from a fair playing field, can lead to a society where the rich look down their noses at the poor and essentially force them into positions of servitude, a la "Downton Abbey."

"It undermines the social fabric," said Pogge, the Yale professor. He told me this idea comes from a University of Michigan philosopher, Elizabeth Anderson. "It basically creates a multi-class society -- a society in which you have people who have to flatter and endear themselves and have to be servile. And other people dominate."

Wealth is rad; human suffering isn't

Imagine a society in which the poorest people are very solidly middle-class by today's standards. They have enough to eat; they have jobs that are stimulating and thought-provoking; they have comfortable lives and can afford to go to movies and all that. Meanwhile, some people are extraordinarily rich -- like way richer than Gates or Buffett.

Is that fair? Is it moral?

Yes, said Toyama, the UC Berkeley researcher. Eliminating suffering is what matters most. Beyond that, extreme wealth is an incentive for people to work harder. "Morality, on some level, is the avoidance of suffering," he said, "or at least the decrease of suffering. And where, in the United States, we have the financial wealth to be able to address everyone's direct suffering, the fact that we're not doing so is the basis for claiming that something is morally wrong."

Extreme inequality ruins democracy

It's no secret money rules politics in America. Team Obama spent $1.1 billion to win the 2012 presidential race. When inequality becomes extreme, it undermines democracy, as the late philosopher John Rawls and others have argued, because it creates unequal access to the political system and to positions of power.

One person, one vote -- yeah. But one person with millions to spend has much more influence. "What is problematic in the United States is the political system ... is one that is quite substantially dominated by those people that have money," said Pogge, the Yale professor. "They can, in the American system, yield a substantial amount of influence on the legislation through lobbying and therefore expand their advantaged position."

Jesus wants us to be poor

In the Biblical tradition, there are parables and sayings that cast the rich in a negative light, implying it's wrong to hold too much wealth, especially if you're not using it to help less fortunate people. See Matthew 19:24: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." "There's something immoral, from the Christian perspective, about being very rich," said Warburton, the author and podcaster. "That's explicit." (Warburton happens to be atheist, by the way.)

The size of the rich-poor gap matters

Some inequality is acceptable to pretty much everyone these days. No one is arguing for a fully equal society. But the degree of inequality really does matter when you're trying to determine whether inequality is moral or amoral, said Pogge, the Yale professor. When extreme inequality sets in, that's when social and political problems follow.

His best estimate for a fair distribution is the Palma Ratio, which measures how much income the top 10% earns compared to the bottom 40%. Ideally, those amounts would be equal, meaning the country would have a Palma Ratio of one. According to a calculation cited by the Danish Institute for International Studies, the United States has a 2010 Palma Ratio of 1.852, which is about the same as Burkina Faso but not as bad as China or South Africa. (In an earlier version of this column, I incorrectly estimated the U.S. Palma Ratio based on wealth instead of income. I should have let the experts handle that, and I regret the mistake). By Pogge's assessment, that means inequality here is too high. Negative consequences for our society will result.

Inequality is bad if the poor don't benefit, too

I'll end this list back on John Rawls, the philosopher whose 1971 book, "A Theory of Justice," is a must-read (or at least a must-become-familiar-with) for people interested in this topic. One of Rawls' theories is that inequality can be justified only when it benefits everyone in society, particularly those who are most poor and vulnerable.

If Rawls were creating a society from scratch, he would design it so that, in his words, "social and economic inequalities ... are to be to the greatest benefit of the least-advantaged members of society."

If the rich making more will help the poor be better off, too, that's cool. If not, it's unfair, or amoral. For real-world reference, here's a quick look at CEO pay in the United States, from the AFL-CIO: The average S&P 500 CEO compensation in 2012, according to that labor group, was $12.3 million. A worker? $35,000. Do the poor benefit from that disparity? Does everyone? Anyone?

When is inequality unfair?

ADG

Atticus · 12-16-2013, 04:58 PM

Because unlike your other examples, income inequality does not equal a productive economy. The wealthiest 1% depends on consumers to buy their products and services. If the economic divide becomes too large there is no longer a consumer base that can afford to purchase the 1%'s products/services.

As the 1% gobble up more and more of the wealth the middle class is squeezed out and the entire economy suffers. Then it becomes the top tenth of 1% and so on controlling the majority of the wealth. On top of that you have the social impacts of a society with a few overlords and thousands of peasants.

Plus as the 1% and corporations increase their wealth they also increase their lobbying and influence which makes it even easier for them to accumulate wealth at the expense of others (See Walmart and the minimum wage which forces tax payers to foot the bill for minimum services as one of many examples).

mineistaken · 12-16-2013, 05:03 PM

Is this the thread where peasant mentality would hate on the rich?

SilentKnight · 12-16-2013, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

Assuming the 20% that own 80% (pareto principle) got theirs LEGITIMATELY and ETHICALLY, why give them grief?

And there lies the conundrum - a lot has to do with the definition and boundaries of LEGITIMATELY and ETHICALLY.

Ask a dozen people to define both - and you'll likely get twelve different variations.

TheSquealer · 12-16-2013, 05:23 PM

Imagine if all the people complaining about inequality simply gave their disposable income to someone who is "disadvantaged" rather than buying designer jeans, iphones and xbox's and maxing out their credit on stupid shit.

kane · 12-16-2013, 05:25 PM

It all depends on how that 1% ends up running things, because, if we are honest it is they that do control most aspects of the country.

If the laws are still fair and everyone has an opportunity to get an education and better themselves then it really isn't a big deal.

However, when you look at third world shithole countries most of them have a few things in common, they have a huge separation of wealth, they have a very corrupt leadership/government and they have a shitty education system.

As we sit right now any person in America can get a free high school education and if they are willing to work they can get a college education. They can learn a skill that can lead to them getting a job that allows them to live a decent life and they live that life in reasonable security.

When that stops is when things go bad.

Minte · 12-16-2013, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Imagine if all the people complaining about inequality simply gave their disposable income to someone who is "disadvantaged" rather than buying designer jeans, iphones and xbox's and maxing out their credit on stupid shit.

SHHHH..that's not the part of the equation that people want to hear about.

L-Pink · 12-16-2013, 05:41 PM

I trust the guards at the front gate to keep the peasants out.

slapass · 12-16-2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

So what if this is true... Are people mad when only a very tiny fraction of the population can play in the NFL, NBA, or have their own late night talk shows? Why do people get bent out of shape regarding disparities in wealth when there are so many other disparities in life like looks, dunking ability, running ability, creative abilities, getting chicks/guys, you name it?

Assuming the 20% that own 80% (pareto principle) got theirs LEGITIMATELY and ETHICALLY, why give them grief?

Would doing anything else be IMMORAL because it violates the Law of Cause and Effect? ie., if I want a big mansion in Malibu (effect), I have to plan hard, work hard, take risks, constantly solve problems/innovate/network (cause)....

It is bad for the economy. A large and wealthy middle class is good for the economy. You can tax them as a group and they tend not to hire people to squash said taxes. They can effect growth through their spending of their wealth versus hoarding it. Lots of good stuff. Countries with tall narrow pyramid of wealth tend to be unstable, corrupt and dangerous places.

SilentKnight · 12-16-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Imagine if all the people complaining about inequality simply gave their disposable income to someone who is "disadvantaged" rather than buying designer jeans, iphones and xbox's and maxing out their credit on stupid shit.

slapass · 12-16-2013, 05:45 PM

Folks if you look at the most productivity growth in the USA it was during a time of relatively decent equality. Times when the shit hit the fan it was more skewed.

_Richard_ · 12-16-2013, 05:46 PM

countdown to blaming 'poor' on 'black', ie 13% of the population

oh look

the morons have already been there, done that lol

Robbie · 12-16-2013, 05:50 PM

Because "Wealth" is a thing. And the rich people have taken it from the poor!

Yeah, right.

I have more money than most anybody I know in my personal life. I didn't take it from them. I earned it for myself and my family. Nothing stopping them from doing the same thing, but their own lack of drive and intelligence.

TheSquealer · 12-16-2013, 06:02 PM

Here is what happens when you give poor people millions of dollars...

Quote:

Tirabassi is back in the working class after winning $10 million nine years ago.

In 2004, Sharon Tirabassi, a single mother who had been on welfare, cashed a check from the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp. for $10,569,00.10 (Canadian).

She subsequently spent her winnings on a "big house, fancy cars, designer clothes, lavish parties, exotic trips, handouts to family, loans to friends" and in less than a decade she's back riding the bus, working part-time, and living in a rented house."

Luckily Tirabassi put some of her windfall in trusts for her six children, who can claim the money when they turn 26.

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Evelyn Adams gambled it all away in Atlantic City.

Against all odds, in the mid-1980s Adams won the lottery twice, once in 1985 and again in 1986.

The New Jersey native won a cool $5.4 million, but AskMen.com reports she gambled it away at Atlantic City.

Today she resides in a trailer park.

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Tonda Lynn Dickerson was forced to pay gift tax.

A former Waffle House waitress named Tonda Lynn Dickerson got served a big plate of karma when she refused to split her winnings with ex-colleagues and was forced to pay the tax man $1,119,347.90.

How did it happen? Dickerson placed her winnings in a corporation and granted her family 51 percent of the stock ? qualifying her for the tax.

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Gerald Muswagon ended up feeling sorry for partying.

In 1998, Gerald Muswagon won the $10 million Super 7 jackpot in Canada, reports BigLotteryWinners.com.

But he blew it all on drinking and partying in only seven years.

Filled with remorse, Muswagon hanged himself in his parents' garage in 2005.

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Suzanne Mullins couldn't dig herself out of debt.

When Mullins won the U.S. lotto in 1993, she opted for yearly payouts instead of a lump sum, reports MSN.

She quickly found herself in debt, using future payouts as collateral for a $200,000 loan.

Mullins later switched to a lump sum payout, but never paid back the debt. The loan company filed suit and won a $154,000 settlement that was all but worthless ? Mullins had no assets.

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Americo Lopes quit his job, lied about it, then got sued.

Construction worker Americo Lopes won the New Jersey lottery, quit his job and then lied about it, claiming he needed foot surgery.

After coming clean to an ex-colleague, he and a few others ganged up on Lopes for not splitting the winnings as promised.

Sadly, the court ordered Lopes to split the prize.

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Ibi Roncaioli was murdered by her husband after she squandered her winnings.

Ontario resident Ibi Roncailoli walked away with $5 million in a 1991 Lotto 649 drawing, but she didn't tell her husband how she decided to spend it.

When Joseph Roncailoli, a gynecologist, found out Ibi gave $2 million of her fortune to a secret child she'd had with another man, he poisoned her with painkillers, the Toronto Star reports.

He was found guilty of manslaughter and reportedly asked Ibi's family to help foot the bill for her funeral.

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Michael Carroll had a fetish for hookers.

Michael Carroll was at his peak when he won Britain's £9.7 million ($15 million) jackpot in 2002, The Week reports.

But a penchant for life in the fast lane ? cocaine, parties, hookers, and cars ? put him back at square one in five years.

Last we heard, the ex-garbageman was hoping to get his old job back.

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Andrew Jackson Whittaker Jr. was undone by casino lawsuits.

In 2002, West Virginia building contractor Andrew Jackson Whittaker Jr. walked away with $114 million after taxes on a $315 Million multi-state Powerball draw.

That was just about his last stroke of good fortune.

In two separate instances, thieves ran off with $745,000 Whittaker stashed in his car. Later on, he was sued by Caesar's Atlantic City for allegedly bouncing $1.5 million in checks.

Within four years, his fortune was gone.

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Billy Bob Harrell Jr. had his prayers answered, but his luck ran out after he couldn't say no.

A Pentecostal preacher working as a stockboy at Home Depot got his prayers answered when he hit the $31 million jackpot in 1997, Business Pundit reports.

At first, life was good with Billy Bob buying a ranch, six other homes, and some new cars.

But like many others who win the lottery, he just couldn't say "NO!" when people asked for a handout.

Later in life he divorced and eventually committed suicide.

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Willie Hurt's crack addiction did him in.

In 1989, Willie won a $3.1 million jackpot in the Michigan Lottery.

Fast-forward two years later and Hurt got divorced, lost custody of his children, was charged with attempted murder, and picked up one helluva crack-cocaine addiction.

The habit was so bad, it sucked away his entire fortune.

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Denise Rossi didn't disclose the jackpot in her divorce filing.

When Denise Rossi won $1.3 million in the California lotto, she left her husband without a word, reports People's Pam Lambert.

Thomas knew something was up, but agreed to divorce her anyway.

Two years later, he intercepted a letter at his new L.A. pad revealing the truth.

He sued Denise for not disclosing her winnings in the divorce, and the judge awarded Thomas every cent.

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Wigmaker Janite Lee blew her fortune on political donations.

After winning an $18 million lottery jackpot in 1993, Janite Lee's earnings were gone within a decade.

The St. Louis Post Dispatch reports Lee, a wigmaker from South Korea, blew her winnings on, of all things, charity.

A reading room was named after her at Washington University's law school, and she was a major donor for the Democratic Party.

But her giving hand, coupled with a little gambling and a lot of credit card debt, allegedly did her in. She filed for bankruptcy in 2001.

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Luke Pittard wound up flipping burgers at McDonald's.

Welsh-born Luke Pittard won a £1.3 million jackpot ($1.9 million) in 2006, but spent it all on a trip to the Canary Islands, a wedding, and a house.

A year-and-a-half later, Pittard was forced to take a job at McDonald's flipping burgers.

He says he's happy, and his leftover winnings collect interest.

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Rhoda and Alex Toth both landed in court for tax evasion.

Alex and Rhoda Toth hit the $13 million jackpot in Florida in 1990. Within 15 years they were destitute.

According to the Tampa Bay Times, the couple declared bankruptcy and were eventually accused of tax evasion by the IRS.

Alex passed away before his case went to trial and Rhoda eventually served two years in prison.

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Vivian Nicholson was a clothes horse who couldn't stop shopping.

Daily Mail UK reports Vivian Nicholson got a taste of the good life when she won a fortune ? £152,300 ? in Britain's football pools in 1961.

Too bad she blew it all filling her closet with haute couture.

Years later, Nicholson is jobless, a newly-minted Jehovah's Witness and a widow. She's also been married five times.

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Teen mom Callie Rogers was too young to spend her money wisely.

Callie Rogers was just 16 when she won £1.9 million in the U.K.'s lottery (about $3 million) in 2003; too young to know how to manage her money or where it would lead her

Rogers hooked up with a loser, had two children, then blew the rest on partying, vacations, and gifts for her friends.

Now Rogers works as a cleaning woman and is reportedly facing bankruptcy.

............... And the list goes on and on.

Rand · 12-16-2013, 06:08 PM

If this is to be believed, the graphs above aren't even close.

http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-...ct-2?c=reccon1

mineistaken · 12-16-2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Because "Wealth" is a thing. And the rich people have taken it from the poor!

Yeah, right.

I have more money than most anybody I know in my personal life. I didn't take it from them. I earned it for myself and my family. Nothing stopping them from doing the same thing, but their own lack of drive and intelligence.

Peasants won't comprehend that though, its their mentality, thats why they can not come of of their class.

dyna mo · 12-16-2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

[IMG]disparities in wealth when there are so many other disparities in life like looks, dunking ability, running ability, creative abilities, getting chicks/guys, you name it?

wealth accumulation to the point of being a 1%er is not an ability like running fast or throwing a ball accurately.

Gator · 12-16-2013, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

So what if this is true... Are people mad when only a very tiny fraction of the population can play in the NFL, NBA, or have their own late night talk shows? Why do people get bent out of shape regarding disparities in wealth when there are so many other disparities in life like looks, dunking ability, running ability, creative abilities, getting chicks/guys, you name it?

Assuming the 20% that own 80% (pareto principle) got theirs LEGITIMATELY and ETHICALLY, why give them grief?

Would doing anything else be IMMORAL because it violates the Law of Cause and Effect? ie., if I want a big mansion in Malibu (effect), I have to plan hard, work hard, take risks, constantly solve problems/innovate/network (cause)....

Keyword - ETHICALLY

Ethics are out the window when it comes to the almighty dollar.

Grapesoda · 12-16-2013, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Here is what happens when you give poor people millions of dollars...

............... And the list goes on and on.

when I worked on sister/sister one of the guys on the crew had won the lottery twice... once for a few million and once for a few hundred thousand... he put the money in the bank, left it and continued with his life until retirement... an older guys so just about 5 years away....

meanwhile one of the black actors complained because he only made 50K a week and whitey was fucking him

TheSquealer · 12-16-2013, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

when I worked on sister/sister one of the guys on the crew had won the lottery twice... once for a few million and once for a few hundred thousand... he put the money in the bank, left it and continued with his life until retirement... an older guys so just about 5 years away....

meanwhile one of the black actors complained because he only made 50K a week and whitey was fucking him

Yeah, being wealthy is a mindset for sure. It's about doing a lot of things consistently right. It's about wanting it. Its about being determined. Its about taking huge chances. Its about taking personal responsibility. Something most refuse to accept as the implications of those things with respect to the one complaining are not overly flattering.

I had a relative contact me recently about PPC asking me if i could show him as he had just closed one of his busineses' and told me he had 90 days and he was out of cash. I was very leery as I knew he was not a go getter and didn't take much personal responsibility for anything and wasn't going to sacrifice 14hrs a day to learn and obsess so that in 90 days, he'd be able to pay his bills.

I was pretty clear with him that there is no easy way from the start. I was very clear that 90 days was not a lot of time to not only learn a huge amount of stuff, but to then be profitable in time to pay his bills and be ok. I expected a tremendous sense of urgency on his part... but of course, i should have known better.

We began with me helping him. I set him up with the best of everything - high converting landing pages, high converting banners/high CTR banners, lightening fast servers/CDNs, full tracking setup and gave him every advantage that 95% of people trying to buy traffic will never have. He struggled. I started feeling bad as I knew I was draining his money trying to teach him, so I explained that I can give him the data and a roadmap to at least make 4-500 a day from my own stats and historical data.

First, he starts telling me his internet was out and he couldn't email spreadsheets back and forth. A normal person would have ran to starbucks and kept working or used their cell phone as a hot spot... he instead fucked off for 2 weeks until his internet was restored (was a legit issue with Verizon) and then started asking incredibly stupid questions, the answers to which were glaringly obvious... not to learn, but to create the impression that he was working hard - though the questions also clearly indicated he wasn't.

He's family and he's helped me in the past but that was too much. I knew from the start he would do this and really i was just trying to clear my conscience I suppose. But at that point, i felt like he deserved to lose his house. I stopped answering the phone and Skype and went back to working on my own stuff which I grew substantially in the last month alone.

When it all goes bad for him, he'll have a great story about how the bank fucked him, how everything else fucked him, how nothing is his fault and so on as most people do.

kane · 12-16-2013, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Here is what happens when you give poor people millions of dollars...

............... And the list goes on and on.

I would venture to guess if you gave most poor and typical middle class people a million dollars they would blow through it pretty quickly.

Part of that is because it doesn't seem real while also seeming endless. When you struggle to get by on $20K a year then suddenly have a million dollars most people would get overwhelmed by it. They would spend like crazy because it would feel like all the money in the world.

Some of that is simply how they were raised and educated and some of it is simple lack of experience with it.

If you work your ass off and earn that money it didn't happen overnight. The odds are it took years to accumulate. During that time you got an education of sorts in how to deal with it so you are in a good place to do so when you get it.

Every year all the major pro sports leagues hold a rookie conference where they have advisers come in and talk to the new rookies about how to deal with their money. Every year they tell them to invest in safe, boring things and every year many of them try to open restaurants, record labels and clothing lines and burn through their money.

I firmly believe they should have at least a year long class in high school that teaches every student how money works, how investments work and how to grow personal wealth while managing their money.

_Richard_ · 12-16-2013, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

SHHHH..that's not the part of the equation that people want to hear about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Peasants won't comprehend that though, its their mentality, thats why they can not come of of their class.

they definitely seem to have skipped over it

TheSquealer · 12-16-2013, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

I firmly believe they should have at least a year long class in high school that teaches every student how money works, how investments work and how to grow personal wealth while managing their money.

I always thought this as well. It's things like this, accounting, work ethic, social etiquette and most importantly, nutrition and proper eating/diet/exercise and so on that will get you through life. I really didn't understand why I was taking Alegebra or trig.... or studying Shakespeare, French or making pottery or taking art classes and so on when none of this stuff would ever matter once I graduated and I always felt I would never use them and never have.

Grapesoda · 12-16-2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

First, he starts telling me his internet was out and he couldn't email spreadsheets back and forth. A normal person would have ran to starbucks and kept working or used their cell phone as a hot spot... he instead fucked off for 2 weeks until his internet was restored (was a legit issue with Verizon) .

most people would run screaming out of the room if you asked then to do what you did, to earn... like my deal.... worked 90 hours a week for years to get where I am, no social life... didn't even watch TV for 10 years....

Grapesoda · 12-16-2013, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I always thought this as well. It's things like this, accounting, work ethic, social etiquette and most importantly, nutrition and proper eating/diet/exercise and so on that will get you through life. I really didn't understand why I was taking Alegebra or trig.... or studying Shakespeare, French or making pottery or taking art classes and so on when none of this stuff would ever matter once I graduated and I always felt I would never use them and never have.

this stuff is to get pussy: Shakespeare, French or making pottery or taking art classes

dyna mo · 12-16-2013, 06:58 PM

there certainly is value in studying the greatest writer in human history.

TheSquealer · 12-16-2013, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

most people would run screaming out of the room if you asked then to do what you did, to earn... like my deal.... worked 90 hours a week for years to get where I am, no social life... didn't even watch TV for 10 years....

Yeah, i don't have much pity for people not ready to work hard and sacrifice and to give it all for what they want. I love hard work and work ethic and have no sympathy for anyone not ready to bust their assess. I spent much of my life in Alaska and my summers all through childhood through my 20's in the Bering Sea. I remember coming home one time and working with this same person doing construction and all I could think of was "wow, i can eat when i want... i get to sleep 8hrs in my own bed... i don't have ice freezing to my face, driven by 60 knot winds in january" and it started to drizzle a little and he was instantly saying "well, we can't really work now.. .time to go". Was a very funny wake up call to peoples varying and overly subjective ideas of work ethic and sacrifice.

TheSquealer · 12-16-2013, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

countdown to blaming 'poor' on 'black', ie 13% of the population

oh look

the morons have already been there, done that lol

Every bit as predictable as you popping in to remind us that you are not only poor, but the most unintelligent, pompous and arrogant poor person on this board.

Minte · 12-16-2013, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

they definitely seem to have skipped over it

It's a mindset Richard. Frankly, I'm glad that there are so many people that like to sleep in while I am up having breakfast, getting a workout in at 5am and then off to work.
Every day. For decades.

And then they finally get up, eat a piece of cold last nights pizza and turn on the Xbox and play a few games. Maybe smoke a joint.. and then chill.

I do appreciate the fact that the majority are like that. Makes it easier for me to enjoy what I like to do.

$5 submissions · 12-16-2013, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

$5 submissions · 12-16-2013, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

there certainly is value in studying the greatest writer in human history.

This man?

He did write about the Law of Cause and Effect (in Christian form, of course):
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Galatians 6:7-8

Isn't wealth disparity just a result of Cause and Effect?

If so, can't individuals choose to pick different Causes so they can enjoy different effects?

Or are we MERE PUPPETS in a vast conspiracy of the HAVES against the HAVE NOTs and need the STATE to step in and fix 'INEQUALITIES'?

L-Pink · 12-16-2013, 07:23 PM

Generally speaking if you are smart enough to MAKE a lot of money you are smart enough not to squander it. Windfalls are a different story. Windfalls are about doing everything you ever wanted to do.

dyna mo · 12-16-2013, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

It's a mindset Richard. Frankly, I'm glad that there are so many people that like to sleep in while I am up having breakfast, getting a workout in at 5am and then off to work.
Every day. For decades.

And then they finally get up, eat a piece of cold last nights pizza and turn on the Xbox and play a few games. Maybe smoke a joint.. and then chill.

I do appreciate the fact that the majority are like that. Makes it easier for me to enjoy what I like to do.

i'm sure many here will think this is very silly but easily the most profound thing i've done that had the most impact on getting work done and having productive work days was getting into the habit of making the bed immediately after i get up.

kane · 12-16-2013, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

This man?

He did write about the Law of Cause and Effect (in Christian form, of course):
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Galatians 6:7-8

Isn't wealth disparity just a result of Cause and Effect?

If so, can't individuals choose to pick different Causes so they can enjoy different effects?

Or are we MERE PUPPETS in a vast conspiracy of the HAVES against the HAVE NOTs and need the STATE to step in and fix 'INEQUALITIES'?

One's ability to change can be strongly affected by their surroundings and situation.

For example, no matter where you live in the US you have opportunity. It might not come easy, but you have access to education and you have access to a better life. Even if you are born and raised in a shitty area you can go to school then go to college or a trade school and learn to do something that you can make a decent living at. Even the worst neighborhoods are likely no more than a short drive from much better, safer places to live so a person can fairly easily relocate.

Now, if you are born in a shithole village in northern Afghanistan where women are treated like animals and it is illegal for them to get an education and they are often sold and traded like property and you happen to be a woman, it is going to be much harder. Even if you are a guy moving to a bigger city where you could prosper and get a quality education is going to very, VERY difficult.

kane · 12-16-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I always thought this as well. It's things like this, accounting, work ethic, social etiquette and most importantly, nutrition and proper eating/diet/exercise and so on that will get you through life. I really didn't understand why I was taking Alegebra or trig.... or studying Shakespeare, French or making pottery or taking art classes and so on when none of this stuff would ever matter once I graduated and I always felt I would never use them and never have.

I can see a certain value to some of those extra classes. Giving someone a well-rounded education might help make them a better all around person. Now, that said, there were a ton of classes I took in high school that were basically useless. I have never used the information from them and don't really even remember what we studied in them.

To me, it would be better to replace those with classes that teach people about money (like I mentioned above). I would also love to see kids get a basic real estate class so they understand how buying and renting works and can make good decisions on that. A basic finance class so people understand how bad credit is for the average person and how to avoid the long term problems it creates and other things that average people will need to know in their lives.

dyna mo · 12-16-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

This man?

He did write about the Law of Cause and Effect (in Christian form, of course):
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Galatians 6:7-8

Isn't wealth disparity just a result of Cause and Effect?

If so, can't individuals choose to pick different Causes so they can enjoy different effects?

Or are we MERE PUPPETS in a vast conspiracy of the HAVES against the HAVE NOTs and need the STATE to step in and fix 'INEQUALITIES'?

well, paul isn't my favorite apostle, if i'm being candid.

i always thought the reap what you sow scripture was regarding the spiritual world v the material world.

L-Pink · 12-16-2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i'm sure many here will think this is very silly but easily the most profound thing i've done that had the most impact on getting work done and having productive work days was getting into the habit of making the bed immediately after i get up.

My first wife's father was a sales rep for a mining and logging equipment manufacturer in Germany. They had a very nice home in the suburbs of Washington DC.

When he wasn't traveling, every day he would get up, shower/shave, put on a suit and drive to the business part of northern Virginia and eat breakfast in a nice hotel while he read the Wall St Journal. He would then drive back home, 5 minutes, park his car in the circular driveway, enter a home office from the side door and start his work day.

I was a high school student dating his daughter. When I asked him about his weird habits he gave me advise I've never forgotten. "If you wake up late, grab a cup of coffee, start making calls in your underwear from the kitchen counter you will think like, sound like and come across like ? a man sitting in his kitchen drinking coffee in his underwear.

You guys working from home should thing about Mr. Ford's advise.

.

slapass · 12-16-2013, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Because "Wealth" is a thing. And the rich people have taken it from the poor!

Yeah, right.

I have more money than most anybody I know in my personal life. I didn't take it from them. I earned it for myself and my family. Nothing stopping them from doing the same thing, but their own lack of drive and intelligence.

No one is coming after your money. They are simply looking to spread it around a bit when you die or earlier if that doesn't work.

Atticus · 12-16-2013, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Because "Wealth" is a thing. And the rich people have taken it from the poor!

Yeah, right.

I have more money than most anybody I know in my personal life. I didn't take it from them. I earned it for myself and my family. Nothing stopping them from doing the same thing, but their own lack of drive and intelligence.

Why is it always this same straw man argument. Nobody is saying you didn't work hard for your money or that you don't have drive or intelligence.

I'll give the Republicans one thing, they are masters at limiting the narrative. It's either Givers or Takers and they've hammered that one home.

I work hard and I make a good living doing what I do. However I also realize that without the middle and working class buying my product I wouldn't be as successful. To have a strong economy you need a strong middle class. When the middle class is strong they consume. The wealthy own the companies the middle class consume from. As more of the middle class consumes, the wealthy need to add more employment. This equals a greater middle class and more consuming. And so on, and so on.

It's great that people have a drive to earn lots of money and become millionaires. It's their American dream. But for some the American dream is simply to work 40 hours a week, provide a better life for their children and take the kids to Disneyland every couple of years. And that's becoming harder and harder. Because in the quest to drive corporate profits higher and higher companies are paying their employees less and less. This is decimating the American middle class and is causing the massive income inequality. Shareholders reap the benefits and those that can't afford to partake are left out.

It's not a matter of givers and takers. Or individuals working harder. It's in everyones best interests to work within a system that insures a strong middle and working class. Its the fundamental building blocks of a strong economy.

dyna mo · 12-16-2013, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

My first wife's father was a sales rep for a mining and logging equipment manufacturer in Germany. They had a very nice home in the suburbs of Washington DC.

When he wasn't traveling, every day he would get up, shower/shave, put on a suit and drive to the business part of northern Virginia and eat breakfast in a nice hotel while he read the Wall St Journal. He would then drive back home, 5 minutes, park his car in the circular driveway, enter a home office from the side door and start his work day.

I was a high school student dating his daughter. When I asked him about his weird habits he gave me advise I've never forgotten. "If you wake up late, grab a cup of coffee, start making calls in your underwear from the kitchen counter you will think like, sound like and come across like ? a man sitting in his kitchen drinking coffee in his underwear.

You guys working from home should thing about Mr. Ford's advise.

.

he's right. i have some quirky habits i do that don't make sense on the surface.

another thing is how many deals can get done in the early hours too. that was another lesson i learned, from a boss when i was a teen, he was teaching me how to sell via cold calls. a lot of business can get done between 8-10am. a lot.

dyna mo · 12-16-2013, 08:03 PM

Minte · 12-16-2013, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atticus

Why is it always this same straw man argument. Nobody is saying you didn't work hard for your money or that you don't have drive or intelligence.

I'll give the Republicans one thing, they are masters at limiting the narrative. It's either Givers or Takers and they've hammered that one home.

I work hard and I make a good living doing what I do. However I also realize that without the middle and working class buying my product I wouldn't be as successful. To have a strong economy you need a strong middle class. When the middle class is strong they consume. The wealthy own the companies the middle class consume from. As more of the middle class consumes, the wealthy need to add more employment. This equals a greater middle class and more consuming. And so on, and so on.

It's great that people have a drive to earn lots of money and become millionaires. It's their American dream. But for some the American dream is simply to work 40 hours a week, provide a better life for their children and take the kids to Disneyland every couple of years. And that's becoming harder and harder. Because in the quest to drive corporate profits higher and higher companies are paying their employees less and less. This is decimating the American middle class and is causing the massive income inequality. Shareholders reap the benefits and those that can't afford to partake are left out.

It's not a matter of givers and takers. Or individuals working harder. It's in everyones best interests to work within a system that insures a strong middle and working class. Its the fundamental building blocks of a strong economy.

You fail to recognize the obvious. Society can not force people to be successful.

Atticus · 12-16-2013, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

You fail to recognize the obvious. Society can not force people to be successful.

Nobody said they could. But once again you've bought the Republican Kool-Aid 100%. Its either successful people pulling themselves up from their boot straps or lazy no good takers. Theres a middle ground. Maybe some people just want to live a comfortable life and do not want to be millionaires, or don't care. They're happy working a 40 hours a week job and raising their 2 kids. With bowling night every Friday. Being home to eat dinner with their kids and helping with the homework. Saving up for that once in a lifetime trip to Hawaii. What's wrong with that? They work hard also. Thats the problem with the above graphic. It's becoming harder and harder to achieve. Because the more and more wealth that goes to the 1%, the more it's hoarded and not filtering back into the economy.

Minte · 12-16-2013, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atticus

Nobody said they could. But once again you've bought the Republican Kool-Aid 100%. Its either successful people pulling themselves up from their boot straps or lazy no good takers. Theres a middle ground. Maybe some people just want to live a comfortable life and do not want to be millionaires, or don't care. They're happy working a 40 hours a week job and raising their 2 kids. With bowling night every Friday. Being home to eat dinner with their kids and helping with the homework. Saving up for that once in a lifetime trip to Hawaii. What's wrong with that? They work hard also. Thats the problem with the above graphic. It's becoming harder and harder to achieve. Because the more and more wealth that goes to the 1%, the more it's hoarded and not filtering back into the economy.

It's not that black and white. And I don't drink Kool-Aid. The majority of people do live the kind of life you describe. Unemployment may be at 10%. That means that 90% are working and paying their mortgages, taking vacations, getting a new car every 3 years.

And for that group of people, they are successful. They live the life they want. If the government didn't need 35+% of their income in taxes they would have more to spend.

But those aren't the people we are talking about. It's that lower group. The entitlement mentality. People who feel that they are owed more. People who buy things they don't need and can't afford. And that group is growing.

JockoHomo · 12-16-2013, 08:40 PM

Eat the rich

slapass · 12-16-2013, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

It's not that black and white. And I don't drink Kool-Aid. The majority of people do live the kind of life you describe. Unemployment may be at 10%. That means that 90% are working and paying their mortgages, taking vacations, getting a new car every 3 years.

And for that group of people, they are successful. They live the life they want. If the government didn't need 35+% of their income in taxes they would have more to spend.

But those aren't the people we are talking about. It's that lower group. The entitlement mentality. People who feel that they are owed more. People who buy things they don't need and can't afford. And that group is growing.

But that is the point. Wealth is being concentrated so the less able to fight for their slice of the pie are going to get hit the hardest. I know this goes against the Conservative mantra but that is who needs help the most. The social safety net benefits them the most. The good news is it is actually cheap on a per person basis to support that system versus spend on the jails/security etc to keep them down. This model has been proven over and over.

After WWII we had very high taxes on the wealthy and it flattened our pyramid shape for wealth distribution. It was one of our golden eras of productivity growth.

L-Pink · 12-16-2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapass

After WWII we had very high taxes on the wealthy and it flattened our pyramid shape for wealth distribution. It was one of our golden eras of productivity growth.

Being an industrial/manufacturing powerhouse didn't hurt either.

Atticus · 12-16-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

It's not that black and white. And I don't drink Kool-Aid. The majority of people do live the kind of life you describe. Unemployment may be at 10%. That means that 90% are working and paying their mortgages, taking vacations, getting a new car every 3 years.

And for that group of people, they are successful. They live the life they want. If the government didn't need 35+% of their income in taxes they would have more to spend.

But those aren't the people we are talking about. It's that lower group. The entitlement mentality. People who feel that they are owed more. People who buy things they don't need and can't afford. And that group is growing.

And the 1% does not spend if they have more to spend. They save. You're preaching trickle down economics again and it's been proven time and again not to work.

You're living in this fantasy world where the wealthy are a group of benefactors and employment creators. While the middle class is being squeezed out by a bunch of lazy entitled takers.

Are you actually advocating a lower tax rate for the 1%?

slapass · 12-16-2013, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Being an industrial/manufacturing powerhouse didn't hurt either.

And why were we that? A huge educated middle class who were educated for free. The add in the GI bill and we paid for a lot of free college and helped with home ownership which shortly there after was the highest in the free world. All on the backs of. 90% tax bracket for the highest earners and decent inheritance tax to break it up upon death. They were able to expand on the industrial revolution at the turn of the century that was caused by being a mineral rich country that was one of the first to educate everyone equally for free.

We can believe the American dream happened in a vacuum but it was helped by other factors. In 1800 the big discussion as to who was going to be the strongest country in the new world had the USA or Argentina.

12-16-2013, 04:44 PM	#1
$5 submissions I help you SUCCEED Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Pearl of the Orient Seas Posts: 32,195	So what if a tiny minority in America owns most of the wealth... So what if this is true... Are people mad when only a very tiny fraction of the population can play in the NFL, NBA, or have their own late night talk shows? Why do people get bent out of shape regarding disparities in wealth when there are so many other disparities in life like looks, dunking ability, running ability, creative abilities, getting chicks/guys, you name it? Assuming the 20% that own 80% (pareto principle) got theirs LEGITIMATELY and ETHICALLY, why give them grief? Would doing anything else be IMMORAL because it violates the Law of Cause and Effect? ie., if I want a big mansion in Malibu (effect), I have to plan hard, work hard, take risks, constantly solve problems/innovate/network (cause).... __________________ Need a NON-ADULT income stream? We build your YOUTUBE CHANNEL for only $20 per video! For Hire: $3/hour or $400 per month Marketing Specialist Virtual Assistants

12-16-2013, 05:23 PM	#6
TheSquealer Mayor of Thneedville Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25,221	Imagine if all the people complaining about inequality simply gave their disposable income to someone who is "disadvantaged" rather than buying designer jeans, iphones and xbox's and maxing out their credit on stupid shit. __________________ . Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens. Rochard

12-16-2013, 05:50 PM	#14
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	Because "Wealth" is a thing. And the rich people have taken it from the poor! Yeah, right. I have more money than most anybody I know in my personal life. I didn't take it from them. I earned it for myself and my family. Nothing stopping them from doing the same thing, but their own lack of drive and intelligence. __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

12-16-2013, 06:08 PM	#16
Rand Industry Vet Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Santa Monica, CA Posts: 2,663	If this is to be believed, the graphs above aren't even close. http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-...ct-2?c=reccon1 __________________ -- Rand Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

12-16-2013, 04:58 PM	#3
Atticus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,051	Because unlike your other examples, income inequality does not equal a productive economy. The wealthiest 1% depends on consumers to buy their products and services. If the economic divide becomes too large there is no longer a consumer base that can afford to purchase the 1%'s products/services. As the 1% gobble up more and more of the wealth the middle class is squeezed out and the entire economy suffers. Then it becomes the top tenth of 1% and so on controlling the majority of the wealth. On top of that you have the social impacts of a society with a few overlords and thousands of peasants. Plus as the 1% and corporations increase their wealth they also increase their lobbying and influence which makes it even easier for them to accumulate wealth at the expense of others (See Walmart and the minimum wage which forces tax payers to foot the bill for minimum services as one of many examples).

12-16-2013, 05:03 PM	#4
mineistaken See signature :) Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ICQ 363 097 773 Posts: 29,656	Is this the thread where peasant mentality would hate on the rich?

12-16-2013, 05:25 PM	#7
kane Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, OR Posts: 20,684	It all depends on how that 1% ends up running things, because, if we are honest it is they that do control most aspects of the country. If the laws are still fair and everyone has an opportunity to get an education and better themselves then it really isn't a big deal. However, when you look at third world shithole countries most of them have a few things in common, they have a huge separation of wealth, they have a very corrupt leadership/government and they have a shitty education system. As we sit right now any person in America can get a free high school education and if they are willing to work they can get a college education. They can learn a skill that can lead to them getting a job that allows them to live a decent life and they live that life in reasonable security. When that stops is when things go bad.

12-16-2013, 05:41 PM	#9
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,151	I trust the guards at the front gate to keep the peasants out.

12-16-2013, 05:45 PM	#12
slapass Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 14,622	Folks if you look at the most productivity growth in the USA it was during a time of relatively decent equality. Times when the shit hit the fan it was more skewed.

12-16-2013, 05:46 PM	#13
_Richard_ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 30,989	countdown to blaming 'poor' on 'black', ie 13% of the population oh look the morons have already been there, done that lol

12-16-2013, 06:58 PM	#27
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 65,364	there certainly is value in studying the greatest writer in human history.

12-16-2013, 07:23 PM	#33
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,151	Generally speaking if you are smart enough to MAKE a lot of money you are smart enough not to squander it. Windfalls are a different story. Windfalls are about doing everything you ever wanted to do.

12-16-2013, 08:03 PM	#42
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 65,364

12-16-2013, 08:40 PM	#46
JockoHomo "LIKE I GIVE A SHIT" Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Dark side of the moon Posts: 1,523	Eat the rich