Business Controversial thread: How not to get shaved?

[suesheboy]

Bottom line is I caught more than 1 program shaving in the past and have been burned by programs shutting their doors and not paying.

Jumping back into the game, I want to make sure I get what is due to me.

Is the only truly safe way not to get shaved (and be sure to be paid) through programs that use CCbill? Who else?

I have spoken to more than 1 program that is going to allow Google Analytics for white label sites for hard good being sold (already figured out how I could shave with that so I am sure other would be able to too). How safe do you think GA is? Any pay sites offering this? Am I being too paranoid?

[Markul]

I think people can shave with CCbill too if they want to but I am no expert. We certainly do not shave, I tend to believe that running an honest business is the best long term solution

[BOOBSARMY]

I always split test , never rely just on 1 program/network

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

I always split test , never rely just on 1 program/network

How does split testing stop shaving and sponsors not paying?

[BOOBSARMY]

helps you to know whos shaving and whos not !!

[Barry-xlovecam]

Make unannounced test buys. If everything goes OK contact the sponsor, explain the buy, then ask the sponsor to reverse (cancel) the transaction and charge-back any commissions, offer to pay any actual costs incurred.

If the sale is shaved -- drop that sponsor, document it, then do as you please.

But set up the test buy correctly! A clean browser with the cache of cookies and flash objects deleted properly from your system.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

helps you to know whos shaving and whos not !!

Please explain this better.

How will split testing show a sponsor shaving and keep them from not paying if they close shop, wish to cut out affiliates or play nasty games ?

[aka123]

For just closing up helps normal debt collection, and for dirty games a lawsuit with debt collecting.

When dealing with other businesses or persons too, there is no way to be 100 % safe. Having said that, don't put your eggs in just one basket.

[aka123]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

helps you to know whos shaving and whos not !!

How split testing will do that? It's practically impossible to make difference between different conversion rates and shaving. Well, if you have a shit load of sites (good sample) and good analytics program with enough computing power, this might be done in some level.

[PR_Glen]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

How does split testing stop shaving and sponsors not paying?

generally speaking if you have two sites with similar content on different programs and you send them the same traffic they should convert fairly similar.

This is somewhat flawed though because one tour could just have much better content and most people who do the testing have so little traffic/sales that they don't get a real number for it (going 3/4 in a baseball game doesn't make you a .750 hitter for the year). What is useful though is you can decipher what is more important, which site/tour converts better and which makes you more money with your traffic which should absolutely be the bottom line anyway.

People who complain non stop about shaving usually don't understand math or marketing enough in the first place, it really isn't a rampant problem these days. Programs that have done this do not last, not because they got busted for shaving, but because they weren't making money for their webmasters.

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

Please explain this better.

How will split testing show a sponsor shaving and keep them from not paying if they close shop, wish to cut out affiliates or play nasty games ?

lets say u have 2 offers/products , offer A & B ( very similar )

they both pay $35 for a trial

u send both offers, lets say 5k traffic from Same traffic source. if offer A have 5 conversions and offer B just 1 . what would u think ??

thats for shaving ^^

Not paying and close the shop thats a different story, and i think the only thing u can do to stop it ,is just to stop sending traffic to that sponsor and move on.

i do alot of CPA adult dating offers and i always use my tracking software for every single traffic i send to an offers and like i said i always split test the same offers from different networks . so its easy to spot whos shaving and whos not.

[Markul]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

lets say u have 2 offers/products , offer A & B ( very similar )

they both pay $35 for a trial

u send both offers, lets say 5k traffic from Same traffic source. if offer A have 5 conversions and offer B just 1 . what would u think ??

thats for shaving ^^

They would have to be EXACTLY the same or you would be jumping to conclusions. Very simple things such as the colour of the join button or the amount of fields the user has to enter to buy the product can make a HUGE difference in ratios.

You really cannot just send each offer 5K from the same source and then claim that source B is shaving because it didn't sell.

[aka123]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

lets say u have 2 offers/products , offer A & B ( very similar )

they both pay $35 for a trial

u send both offers, lets say 5k traffic from Same traffic source. if offer A have 5 conversions and offer B just 1 . what would u think ??

thats for shaving ^^

LOL

No, that's different conversion ratio (for multiple of reasons). You have just succesfully tested conversion ratios, not shaving.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Make unannounced test buys. If everything goes OK contact the sponsor, explain the buy, then ask the sponsor to reverse (cancel) the transaction and charge-back any commissions, offer to pay any actual costs incurred.

If the sale is shaved -- drop that sponsor, document it, then do as you please.

But set up the test buy correctly! A clean browser with the cache of cookies and flash objects deleted properly from your system.

I would never ask for money back on a test which I would do as I did in the past with someone elses credit card and on their computer. I cut them a check right then and there for the test.

The thing is I don't want to have to keep testing.

[vdbucks]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

lets say u have 2 offers/products , offer A & B ( very similar )

they both pay $35 for a trial

u send both offers, lets say 5k traffic from Same traffic source. if offer A have 5 conversions and offer B just 1 . what would u think ??

thats for shaving ^^

Not paying and close the shop thats a different story, and i think the only thing u can do to stop it ,is just to stop sending traffic to that sponsor and move on.

i do alot of CPA adult dating offers and i always use my tracking software for every single traffic i send to an offers and like i said i always split test the same offers from different networks . so its easy to spot whos shaving and whos not.

So you automatically assume and accuse shaving before taking any other factors into consideration? Site design & product presentation (to name 2 off the top of my head, many other factors to consider) have nothing to do with conversions?

Seems like a very amateur approach to how the internet works if you ask me... I mean, at the very least, you'd have to send the same visitors who are willing to buy the same thing twice to the same 2 sites and assume both sites present their products well and have optimal site designs before you could attempt to gauge this so called "shaving" conspiracy.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by Markul

They would have to be EXACTLY the same or you would be jumping to conclusions. Very simple things such as the colour of the join button or the amount of fields the user has to enter to buy the product can make a HUGE difference in ratios.

You really cannot just send each offer 5K from the same source and then claim that source B is shaving because it didn't sell.

Thanks you.

Shaving can be very subtle, but can make huge differences in the long run.

There are clearly programs that had software to do this. The question is (I know nothing is 100%) what are the best ways to protect yourself AND be sure you will get paid.

[aka123]

Originally Posted by vdbucks

Site design & product presentation (to name 2 off the top of my head, many other factors to consider) have nothing to do with conversions?

Or the product itself.

[aka123]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

There are clearly programs that had software to do this. The question is (I know nothing is 100%) what are the best ways to protect yourself AND be sure you will get paid.

Get a job.

Business is always associated with risk.

[Tom_PM]

You could sit on a program owners lap for a week and watch the sales come in and see nothing shady going on and then a week afterwards wonder if they were shaving again. It's always been that way and there's a 99.9% chance that it'll always be that way.

I think it was Confucius who said, Seek the source of anxiety inside yourself, for it is not to be found any other where.


Or, you know.. some damn words to help get on with your life.

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by Markul

They would have to be EXACTLY the same or you would be jumping to conclusions. Very simple things such as the colour of the join button or the amount of fields the user has to enter to buy the product can make a HUGE difference in ratios.

You really cannot just send each offer 5K from the same source and then claim that source B is shaving because it didn't sell.

True

they must be very very similar offers . but if u send same amount of traffic to 2 different offers 1 converts nicely and the other don't u know witch one 2 pause.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by vdbucks

So you automatically assume and accuse shaving before taking any other factors into consideration? Site design & product presentation (to name 2 off the top of my head, many other factors to consider) have nothing to do with conversions?

Seems like a very amateur approach to how the internet works if you ask me...

Exactly.

Shaving is when someone joins and you don't get paid as a result of a program skimming. Not bad conversions due to program design, their product and how they present it.

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by vdbucks

So you automatically assume and accuse shaving before taking any other factors into consideration? Site design & product presentation (to name 2 off the top of my head, many other factors to consider) have nothing to do with conversions?

Seems like a very amateur approach to how the internet works if you ask me... I mean, at the very least, you'd have to send the same visitors who are willing to buy the same thing twice to the same 2 sites and assume both sites present their products well and have optimal site designs before you could attempt to gauge this so called "shaving" conspiracy.

You must be blind i did say ( very similar offers )

[suesheboy]

Lets get back directly on the topic.

IS CC Bill (or others and please name them) the best way to assure no hanky panky?

AND

Is GA a good way to protect oneself on a white label site?

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

Exactly.

Shaving is when someone joins and you don't get paid as a result of a program skimming. Not bad conversions due to program design, their product and how they present it.

and how would u know if they joined or not ?

[vdbucks]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

You must be blind i did say ( very similar offers )

The offer itself doesn't matter, and that's the point.

I could put up 2 websites selling the exact same products.

One site would present the products extremely well, and the site design would be completely optimized; and overall the sales potential would be perfect.

The second site selling the exact same products wouldn't be as well done, wouldn't present the products correctly and the site would look like shit.

Which one do you really think would convert more?

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

and how would u know if they joined or not ?

When I sat there and typed the info in myself and paid for a membership (using a friends info and card) and logged in and logged back in during the month (on someone else's computer).

I have also had instances of good being shipped and not getting paid too.

[vdbucks]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

Lets get back directly on the topic.

IS CC Bill (or others and please name them) the best way to assure no hanky panky?

AND

Is GA a good way to protect oneself on a white label site?

To be completely blunt and honest, sites who do not run their own affiliate programs (ie, run their aff programs through epoch, ccbill, etc) are the safest way to get paid since the payment processor pays you directly, and there's no need to worry about the program not paying you.

That being said, I'm pretty sure the whole "shaving" myth has been debunked for sites who use nats and mpa3 (I can't speak for others). Granted, you can't be sure a program won't up and close their doors and stop paying, but at the end of the day, if you do your own research on programs you promote, you stand to make more money.

Case in point, we currently have accounts and process through ccbill, epoch, netbilling, segpay, verotel... and for us, ccbill converts absolutely terribly for every single one of our sites...

[Markul]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

True

they must be very very similar offers . but if u send same amount of traffic to 2 different offers 1 converts nicely and the other don't u know witch one 2 pause.

Oh for sure, that's what split testing is all about as an affiliate - just as long as you don't accuse the bad performer of shaving, you need to run other and more different tests for that. (not that I am an expert in testing shaving, I guess I am far too trusting hah)

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by vdbucks

To be completely blunt and honest, sites who do not run their own affiliate programs (ie, run their aff programs through epoch, ccbill, etc) are the safest way to get paid since the payment processor pays you directly, and there's no need to worry about the program not paying you.

That being said, I'm pretty sure the whole "shaving" myth has been debunked for sites who use nats and mpa3 (I can't speak for others). Granted, you can't be sure a program won't up and close their doors and stop paying, but at the end of the day, if you do your own research on programs you promote, you stand to make more money.

Case in point, we currently have accounts and process through ccbill, epoch, netbilling, segpay, verotel... and for us, ccbill converts absolutely terribly for every single one of our sites...

This is the kind of info I want.

So programs using these processors do not have to keep money in escrow and pay affiliates before paying sponsors I assume?

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by vdbucks

The offer itself doesn't matter, and that's the point.

I could put up 2 websites selling the exact same products.

One site would present the products extremely well, and the site design would be completely optimized; and overall the sales potential would be perfect.

The second site selling the exact same products wouldn't be as well done, wouldn't present the products correctly and the site would look like shit.

Which one do you really think would convert more?

we are talking about split testing the same offer/website/product

not split testing a shit website with a well design and optimised website !!

[Tom_PM]

I don't think you can actually call that "split testing" because that term is generally used when you are using two different ads for the exact same site. Testing which of your ads produces more.

edit: oh ok, you explained it while I was posting.

[vdbucks]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

This is the kind of info I want.

So programs using these processors do not have to keep money in escrow and pay affiliates before paying sponsors I assume?

Here's how it works...

Let's say you promote a site through ccbill...

When a member joins through your affiliate code, ccbill will then automatically deduct your cut from that sale, and assuming there are no CBs and the like, ccbill will pay you directly. At no time would the program you promote through ccbill have access to or be able to control your cut whatsoever as the money is never sent/given to them to begin with.

But again, that being said... in OUR experience, promoting sites who only use 1 processor/affiliate program (especially ccbill for us) may end up in less sales and revenue... so your best bet is to do some due diligence on programs you'd like to promote, and not make decisions solely on whether or not they run their own affiliate program.

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by Markul

Oh for sure, that's what split testing is all about as an affiliate - just as long as you don't accuse the bad performer of shaving, you need to run other and more different tests for that. (not that I am an expert in testing shaving, I guess I am far too trusting hah)

oh yes you must be very trusting and having a HUGE amount of traffic & money to waist on different tests on a bad performing product or network.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

we are talking about split testing the same offer/website/product

not split testing a shit website with a well design and optimised website !!

Please, before you make suggestions and offer advice, learn how to make compliant code, a responsive web site, and know what they search engines are looking for.

Sit back and learn from the experts here before you put your foot in your mouth.

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

Please, before you make suggestions and offer advice, learn how to make compliant code, a responsive web site, and know what they search engines are looking for.

Sit back and learn from the experts here before you put your foot in your mouth.

you sound like a little girl !

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by vdbucks

Here's how it works...

Let's say you promote a site through ccbill...

When a member joins through your affiliate code, ccbill will then automatically deduct your cut from that sale, and assuming there are no CBs and the like, ccbill will pay you directly. At no time would the program you promote through ccbill have access to or be able to control your cut whatsoever as the money is never sent/given to them to begin with.

But again, that being said... in OUR experience, promoting sites who only use 1 processor/affiliate program (especially ccbill for us) may end up in less sales and revenue... so your best bet is to do some due diligence on programs you'd like to promote, and not make decisions solely on whether or not they run their own affiliate program.

Golden information.

Do you feel as though on white labels that having them install your GA code is good protection too? At least I know that my tracking will be far better in terms of funneling, stickyness, time on site, page views, return visits etc.

[vdbucks]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

we are talking about split testing the same offer/website/product

not split testing a shit website with a well design and optimised website !!

This is not what you said previously...

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

lets say u have 2 offers/products , offer A & B ( very similar )

"very similar" != the same

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

they must be very very similar offers

again, "very similar" != the same

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

You must be blind i did say ( very similar offers )

and again, "very similar" != the same


Also, you never once mentioned presentation, design or any other possible factors in your previous posts...

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

you sound like a little girl !

I am an old experienced man.

I am looking for advice from others experienced that know more than I do about the subject.

[freecartoonporn]

this(test joins time to time.)

[vdbucks]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

Do you feel as though on white labels that having them install your GA code is good protection too? At least I know that my tracking will be far better in terms of funneling, stickyness, time on site, page views, return visits etc.

Well, to be honest, when it comes to the topic of so called shaving, I really can't say whether or not stats like those GA provides would give you concrete proof because (as far as I know), said stat tracking cannot determine when sales were made, or not made.

Sure, you could assume that time on site (for instance) would equal a sale, but at the end of the day, that's not really a good way to try and do things; because for all you know, said visitor might just spend time browsing through profiles looking for a particular person they like or w/e, not find them and never join. And so on and so on and so on... there are simply too many variables.

To let you know what WE do, in house, on our own terms as a small company... we're currently working on expanding our own affiliate sites to promote other products/sites/services. And before we decide to promote any other site, the very first thing we look for and research is their reputation. We do this because one thing is for certain, if there is something bad to say about a program/site/product/etc then you can pretty much bet it's been said somewhere, and you can usually find enough information in order to make the decision to avoid them.

Granted, this doesn't take into account programs and such who just up and one day close their doors, and leave everyone they owe money to hanging; but to be honest, unfortunately you have to take risks in order to see the greater rewards.

Sure, sticking to a (for example) ccbill controlled affiliate program might be the safe money bet, but it's usually not going to be the most profitable bet.

At the end of the day, the best thing I can say/suggest is do your homework and make your decisions based on the results.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by freecartoonporn

this(test joins time to time.)

You first want to move into a great neighborhood before you buy and test your alarm system.

(of course you want to test your alarm system too)

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by vdbucks

Well, to be honest, when it comes to the topic of so called shaving, I really can't say whether or not stats like those GA provides would give you concrete proof because (as far as I know), said stat tracking cannot determine when sales were made, or not made.

Installed on the confirmation of sale made page would work as long as a rotating script to turn on and off the tracking was not used.

My main concern about GA would be a white label for selling hard goods.

[Relentless]

Release The Kraken.....



Shaving is 100% irrelevant. What matters is who pays you the most per click. As long as someone pays you the most, it doesn't matter why they did not pay you more. If they pay the least and never shave, they are a much worse choice than someone who always shaves but still pays you the most.

[arock10]

Hey I heard shaving doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is $ / click


Let's get this thread to 7 pages!

[vdbucks]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

Installed on the confirmation of sale made page would work as long as a rotating script to turn on and off the tracking was not used.

My main concern about GA would be a white label for selling hard goods.

This may be possible, but I cannot give any input on it to be completely honest.

At the end of the day though, it's all a risk. On one hand you risk your money making potential by sticking with the safe bet, on the other hand you risk your money making potential if the [in house] program doesn't pay.

There's really no concrete answer on how to do things. But to be honest, the last thing I really worry about in regards to whether or not I'll get paid for my traffic is whether or not a program is "shaving".

This is simply because I have yet to see enough evidence to support the notion that it's really being done... and I usually make my decision on whether to promote a site/program or not long before I think about the whole "shaving" aspect...

[Relentless]

You have 100% accurate data for only two things...

1) Exactly how many clicks you sent

2) Exactly how many dollars were deposited into your bank account

NET $/click is all you do know... and all you need to know.

[suesheboy]

Of course what matters is how much you bring home, but from experience I can say that that steal a load of bread a week and get away with it, will most often then try stealing 2 or 3 loaves a week and slowly bleed you dry.

It is interesting I heard 2 times in the past few weeks sponsors in hard goods offering GA. It sure as hell will offer more intelligence that any other sponsor stat program I have seen before.

[aka123]

Originally Posted by BOOBSARMY

we are talking about split testing the same offer/website/product

not split testing a shit website with a well design and optimised website !!

Okay, you test:

Site A vs B. (for shaving)
Site A vs B. (for conversion)

What's the difference? Only thing that matters is what you are actually testing. You can test oranges in a shop and call it testing apples, but whatever you call it, in reality you are testing oranges.

Testing shaving is almost totally out of your control, since you would need data, that you don't have and can't get.

[BOOBSARMY]

Originally Posted by aka123

Okay, you test:

Site A vs B. (for shaving)
Site A vs B. (for conversion)

What's the difference? Only thing that matters is what you are actually testing. You can test oranges in a shop and call it testing apples, but whatever you call it, in reality you are testing oranges.

Testing shaving is almost totally out of your control, since you would need data, that you don't have and can't get.

I like grapes

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

Of course what matters is how much you bring home, but from experience I can say that that steal a load of bread a week and get away with it, will most often then try stealing 2 or 3 loaves a week and slowly bleed you dry. It is interesting I heard 2 times in the past few weeks sponsors in hard goods offering GA. It sure as hell will offer more intelligence that any other sponsor stat program I have seen before.

It's obvious you are coming back from some time away. In 2014 you have very little chance of knowing who actually owns any particular program. In most cases the 'good guy' you think owns a program is just the face for a larger company that owns it and many others.

Pay attention to the only stats you can actually track. Dollars and Clicks.

Hope that helps