US not a democray new study says - GoFuckYourself.com

Cherry7 · 08-15-2014, 03:39 PM

A new study from Princeton spells bad news for American democracy?namely, that it no longer exists.

The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy," they write, "while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence."

Sly · 08-15-2014, 03:40 PM

The United States was never a democracy. I would think that a university with such a reputation as Princeton would not need to do a study to figure this out.

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 03:43 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...concludes.html

NemesisEnforcer · 08-15-2014, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

The United States was never a democracy. I would think that a university with such a reputation as Princeton would not need to do a study to figure this out.

QTF

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

The United States was never a democracy. I would think that a university with such a reputation as Princeton would not need to do a study to figure this out.

Study is a study, studying even "obvious like" things is usually worthy, since you get real reference instead of some "my toe itches, so it's gonna rain".

Sly · 08-15-2014, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

Study is a study, studying even "obvious like" things is usually worthy, since you ger real reference instead of some "my toe itches, so it's gonna rain".

This isn't an "obvious thing." It's the same as saying a TV needs electricity. It's written in our countries manual. The only study you need to read is the framework of our country. That's it.

Dvae · 08-15-2014, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry7

A new study from Princeton spells bad news for American democracy?namely, that it no longer exists.

The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy," they write, "while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence."

We should expect such a conclusion from a socialist lefty such as yourself. Its hard to lose something you never had.

The United States was founded as a Representative Republic not a Democracy. It is closer to a Democracy now than it was at the founding.

dyna mo · 08-15-2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

The United States was never a democracy. I would think that a university with such a reputation as Princeton would not need to do a study to figure this out.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to call it what it is- a democratic republic. Using thwe right terms and I can see the conclusions made in the study.

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

This isn't an "obvious thing." It's the same as saying a TV needs electricity. It's written in our countries manual. The only study you need to read is the framework of our country. That's it.

Sorry, I don't have your country's manual. Maybe you could post it to me?

dyna mo · 08-15-2014, 03:57 PM

here's the report, I'll have to read it later, I've just only read the abstract

https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/G...s%203-7-14.pdf

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

We should expect such a conclusion from a socialist lefty such as yourself. Its hard to lose something you never had.

The United States was founded as a Representative Republic not a Democracy. It is closer to a Democracy now than it was at the founding.

I don't know about representative republic, but I know a thing or two about representative democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:09 PM

For every "LOL. It's obvious"/ "It's built that way" guy I would like to ask question: If it's so obvious that you don't have and or even couldn't have democracy, why you have elections? For amusement perhaps?

Dvae · 08-15-2014, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

I don't know about representative republic, but I know a thing or two about representative democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

If you stated what country you are from then maybe it would become clear as to why you doubt that statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic#United_States

pornmasta · 08-15-2014, 04:15 PM

I am curious to know how they define "democracy".
In fact if you vote for people to give them the power, you are technically not in a democracy but in a republic...

MK Ultra · 08-15-2014, 04:16 PM

The Internet Knows All http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html

Quote:

The United States is, indeed, a republic, not a democracy. Accurately defined, a democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums. A republic, on the other hand, is a system in which the people choose representatives who, in turn, make policy decisions on their behalf. The Framers of the Constitution were altogether fearful of pure democracy. Everything they read and studied taught them that pure democracies "have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" (Federalist No. 10).

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

If you stated what country you are from then maybe it would become clear as to why you doubt that statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic#United_States

What that has to do where I come from?

I doubt that USA is representetive republic, as there is no such term used, at least officially. The term is representative democracy.

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornmasta

I am curious to know how they define "democracy".
In fact if you vote for people to give them the power, you are technically not in a democracy but in a republic...

Noooooooooo!! That is representative democracy.

For example UK has king (not republic), but it is representative democracy.

Best-In-BC · 08-15-2014, 04:19 PM

You would have to have your head way way way up your ass not to already think that at the very least

pornmasta · 08-15-2014, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

Noooooooooo!! That is representative democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornmasta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

My previous addon.

"For example UK has king (not republic), but it is representative democracy."

Representative democracy is not synonym for republic or other way around.

"Representative democracy (also indirect democracy) is a variety of democracy founded on the principle of elected officials representing a group of people, as opposed to direct democracy.[1] All modern Western-style democracies are types of representative democracies; for example, the United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy and Germany is a parliamentary republic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

pornmasta · 08-15-2014, 04:27 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacyclosis

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacycl...de_Polybe2.png

Dvae · 08-15-2014, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

What that has to do where I come from?

I doubt that USA is representetive republic, as there is no such term used, at least officially. The term is representative democracy.

It doesn't matter what you believe. It does not change what is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic

<when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, ?A republic, if you can keep it?>

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

It doesn't matter what you believe. It does not change what is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic

<when asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, ?A republic, if you can keep it?>

Daahh, representative democracy and republic don't exclude each other. You have representative democracy that is republic (more narrow definition), but there is no such thing as representative republic.

pornmasta · 08-15-2014, 04:38 PM

anyway the meaning of the word democracy is not so obvious, so they have to define the word.

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornmasta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacyclosis

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacycl...de_Polybe2.png

Let's not get polyps into this, I am too drunk and tired. But there you go. Polyp I mean. (well.. nevermind, those were too groce).

Robbie · 08-15-2014, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

The United States was founded as a Representative Republic not a Democracy.

And there is the real answer. Unreal the shit that some of the "studies" these days come up with.

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornmasta

anyway the meaning of the word democracy is not so obvious, so they have to define the word.

Well, the point of the study is that USA hasn't neither direct democracy or representative democracy. Although I guess it is still republic as there is still voting (like in Soviet Union).

Robbie · 08-15-2014, 04:44 PM

"The government was formed in 1789, making the United States one of the world's first, if not the first, modern national constitutional republic.

The United States government is based on the principle of federalism, in which power is shared between the federal government and state governments. The details of American federalism, including what powers the federal government should have and how those powers can be exercised, have been debated ever since the adoption of the Constitution. Some make the case for expansive federal powers while others argue for a more limited role for the central government in relation to individuals, the states or other recognized entities."

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And there is the real answer. Unreal the shit that some of the "studies" these days come up with.

You didn't even understand what it studied. This is so fucking joke.

Dvae · 08-15-2014, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And there is the real answer. Unreal the shit that some of the "studies" these days come up with.

Thank you Robbie. For a minute I thought I'd lost my mind.

Only revisionist history will say otherwise. Which is exactly what the OP's referenced study is.

pornmasta · 08-15-2014, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

(like in Soviet Union).

not really like soviet union

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornmasta

not really like soviet union

Not exactly, but it was republic (by name), as does USA, but it sure as hell wasn't representative democracy, as it seems that neither is USA.

Dvae · 08-15-2014, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

Daahh, representative democracy and republic don't exclude each other. You have representative democracy that is republic (more narrow definition), but there is no such thing as representative republic.

Its not a democracy. I'll give you Constitutional Republic. But that was not what it was founded as.

It doesn't matter what sources I cite you still shoot it down. I'm going one more time and thats it. I'm done with it. You're either ignorant or trolling or both.

A Constitutional Republic is the current form of government in the United States. However in recent years, many people have criticized the federal government for moving away from a Constitutional Republic, as defined by the Constitution, and towards a pure democracy.[1]
http://www.conservapedia.com/Constitutional_Republic

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dvae

Its not a democracy. I'll give you Constitutional Republic. But that was not what it was founded as.

It doesn't matter what sources I cite you still shoot it down. I'm going one more time and thats it. I'm done with it. You're either ignorant or trolling or both.

A Constitutional Republic is the current form of government in the United States. However in recent years, many people have criticized the federal government for moving away from a Constitutional Republic, as defined by the Constitution, and towards a pure democracy.[1]
http://www.conservapedia.com/Constitutional_Republic

Constitutional republic doesn't exclude representative democracy.

Call it whatever you like, it is still irrelevant regarding that study, that is the subject of this thread. It didn't study you having direct democracy and then "Oh, no!, They don't have direct democracy." Try to understand what it even studied.

Robbie · 08-15-2014, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

You didn't even understand what it studied. This is so fucking joke.

Why don't you fill me in with all of your immense intelligence and knowledge?
Also good to see that you have cognitive abilities to reach across the internet and gauge what another person does or does not understand.

You are special!

aka123 · 08-15-2014, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Why don't you fill me in with all of your immense intelligence and knowledge?
Also good to see that you have cognitive abilities to reach across the internet and gauge what another person does or does not understand.

You are special!

The subject of the study and it's conclusions are yours to read. I haven't done that study. About your understanding regarding this subject (alone), I was using high tech measures, like internet, written information and GFY, and I cannot emphasis enough the last one.

The study:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...concludes.html

https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/G...s%203-7-14.pdf

kane · 08-15-2014, 05:40 PM

I believe the study is trying to question the government's actual ability or desire to serve the average person. It points out that it now serves big business and big interest. It is not making a statement about the technical makeup of how the government works.

We are a representative republic. We elect leaders who are supposed to represent our best interests and desires. This study is stating that the wealthy and powerful now have such influence over the government and election system that it doesn't really matter who we vote for or which party is in power, neither is actually going to serve the people more than they will serve those with cash who helped them get elected.

There are some independents that get elected, but at this point there are so few of them it is rare that they actually have any affect or influence.

weewilly · 08-15-2014, 07:25 PM

we have never been a democracy, We are a republic. Just say the Pledge of Allegiance. But even our leaders have limits or use to have limits in the Constitution. But that has been over ridden by power hungry bureaucrats

Mutt · 08-15-2014, 08:09 PM

What most people don't know is that the Founding Fathers based the American Republic on the Iroquois Confederacy.

238 years later I'd say it's served the people well. The Founding Fathers didn't have a whole lot of faith that it would.

Phoenix · 08-15-2014, 08:18 PM

that is crazy...must be because i have been saying it for over a decade...and i was called a conspiracy theorist nutjob.
so obviously princeton is full of wackjobs also.

Mutt · 08-15-2014, 08:41 PM

"It would be a strange thing if six nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner as that it has subsisted ages and appears insoluble; and yet that a like union should be impracticable for 10 or a dozen English colonies."

- Ben Franklin

Robbie · 08-15-2014, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

I was using high tech measures, like internet, written information and GFY, and I cannot emphasis enough the last one.

Well played sir...well played.

Captain Kawaii · 08-16-2014, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

For every "LOL. It's obvious"/ "It's built that way" guy I would like to ask question: If it's so obvious that you don't have and or even couldn't have democracy, why you have elections? For amusement perhaps?

Elections are a money making process by the elite to bilk the dimwits who think they have some kind of voice out of whatever cash they can.

Noam Chomsky has said, and I believe him, that americans have not truly elected a president since Kennedy.

Captain Kawaii · 08-16-2014, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

The subject of the study and it's conclusions are yours to read. I haven't done that study. About your understanding regarding this subject (alone), I was using high tech measures, like internet, written information and GFY, and I cannot emphasis enough the last one.

The study:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...concludes.html

https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/G...s%203-7-14.pdf

Given the choice between Wikipedia and GFY, GFY of course is the benchmark of higher learning.

Barry-xlovecam · 08-16-2014, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka123

Sorry, I don't have your country's manual. Maybe you could post it to me?

RTFM : http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution

mineistaken · 08-16-2014, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

The United States was never a democracy. I would think that a university with such a reputation as Princeton would not need to do a study to figure this out.

Really? So how come they are "spreading democracy" over oil countries around the world if they are not democratic themselves?

And what is the system if not democracy there?

mineistaken · 08-16-2014, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK Ultra

The Internet Knows All http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html

Well according to that definition - there is no single democratic country in the world.

Cherry7 · 08-16-2014, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Well according to that definition - there is no single democratic country in the world.

Aint that the truth.

dyna mo · 08-16-2014, 07:42 AM

it appears that I'm the only one here who actually read the article and not just sound bites of other's opinion on it.

can't really add to an argument where people don't use the actual source of the argument to form their view. Peeps should appreciate having access to original documents so we can read them for ourselves and form our own views on them, not read other's views on them and form an opinion based on an opinion.

Nevertheless, the report delves deeply into the various interpretations of our democratic republic via policy and not once refers to the USA as a democracy based system.

dyna mo · 08-16-2014, 07:43 AM

What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute
troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond
primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our Gilens and Page Testing Theories of American Politics 23
23
findings indicate, the majority does not rule -- at least not in the causal sense of actually
determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or
with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias
built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy
change, they generally do not get it.

https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/G...s%203-7-14.pdf

08-15-2014, 03:39 PM	#1
Cherry7 Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	US not a democray new study says A new study from Princeton spells bad news for American democracy?namely, that it no longer exists. The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy," they write, "while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence." __________________ My Neighbour Butterfly PORN-The Musical The Long Goodbye Cinema Erotique

08-15-2014, 03:40 PM	#2
Sly Let's do some business! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 31,295	The United States was never a democracy. I would think that a university with such a reputation as Princeton would not need to do a study to figure this out. __________________ Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted Windows VPS now available - just $50/mo Wanted: CCBill pay sites for sale

08-15-2014, 04:19 PM	#18
Best-In-BC Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 9,506	You would have to have your head way way way up your ass not to already think that at the very least __________________ Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More Unparked domains burning a hole in your pocket? 5 Simple Ways to Make Easy $$$ from Unused Domains

08-15-2014, 04:44 PM	#28
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	"The government was formed in 1789, making the United States one of the world's first, if not the first, modern national constitutional republic. The United States government is based on the principle of federalism, in which power is shared between the federal government and state governments. The details of American federalism, including what powers the federal government should have and how those powers can be exercised, have been debated ever since the adoption of the Constitution. Some make the case for expansive federal powers while others argue for a more limited role for the central government in relation to individuals, the states or other recognized entities." __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

08-15-2014, 08:09 PM	#39
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	What most people don't know is that the Founding Fathers based the American Republic on the Iroquois Confederacy. 238 years later I'd say it's served the people well. The Founding Fathers didn't have a whole lot of faith that it would. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

08-15-2014, 03:43 PM	#3
aka123 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: 64 00 N, 26 00 E Posts: 4,450	http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...concludes.html

08-15-2014, 03:57 PM	#10
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,162	here's the report, I'll have to read it later, I've just only read the abstract https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/G...s%203-7-14.pdf

08-15-2014, 04:09 PM	#12
aka123 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: 64 00 N, 26 00 E Posts: 4,450	For every "LOL. It's obvious"/ "It's built that way" guy I would like to ask question: If it's so obvious that you don't have and or even couldn't have democracy, why you have elections? For amusement perhaps?

08-15-2014, 04:15 PM	#14
pornmasta Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 19,026	I am curious to know how they define "democracy". In fact if you vote for people to give them the power, you are technically not in a democracy but in a republic...

08-15-2014, 04:27 PM	#21
pornmasta Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 19,026	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacyclosis http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacycl...de_Polybe2.png

08-15-2014, 04:38 PM	#24
pornmasta Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 19,026	anyway the meaning of the word democracy is not so obvious, so they have to define the word.

08-15-2014, 05:40 PM	#37
kane Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, OR Posts: 20,684	I believe the study is trying to question the government's actual ability or desire to serve the average person. It points out that it now serves big business and big interest. It is not making a statement about the technical makeup of how the government works. We are a representative republic. We elect leaders who are supposed to represent our best interests and desires. This study is stating that the wealthy and powerful now have such influence over the government and election system that it doesn't really matter who we vote for or which party is in power, neither is actually going to serve the people more than they will serve those with cash who helped them get elected. There are some independents that get elected, but at this point there are so few of them it is rare that they actually have any affect or influence.

08-15-2014, 07:25 PM	#38
weewilly Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Oregon Posts: 190	we have never been a democracy, We are a republic. Just say the Pledge of Allegiance. But even our leaders have limits or use to have limits in the Constitution. But that has been over ridden by power hungry bureaucrats

08-15-2014, 08:18 PM	#40
Phoenix BACON BACON BACON Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poems everybody, the laddie fancies himself a poet Posts: 35,457	that is crazy...must be because i have been saying it for over a decade...and i was called a conspiracy theorist nutjob. so obviously princeton is full of wackjobs also. __________________ Skype Phoenixskype1 Telegram PhoenixBrad https://quantads.io

08-15-2014, 08:41 PM	#41
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	"It would be a strange thing if six nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner as that it has subsisted ages and appears insoluble; and yet that a like union should be impracticable for 10 or a dozen English colonies." - Ben Franklin __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

08-16-2014, 07:42 AM	#49
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,162	it appears that I'm the only one here who actually read the article and not just sound bites of other's opinion on it. can't really add to an argument where people don't use the actual source of the argument to form their view. Peeps should appreciate having access to original documents so we can read them for ourselves and form our own views on them, not read other's views on them and form an opinion based on an opinion. Nevertheless, the report delves deeply into the various interpretations of our democratic republic via policy and not once refers to the USA as a democracy based system.

08-16-2014, 07:43 AM	#50
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,162	What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our Gilens and Page Testing Theories of American Politics 23 23 findings indicate, the majority does not rule -- at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it. https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/G...s%203-7-14.pdf