AmeliaG

American citizens fighting amongst themselves distracts from the main issues.

Americans are lambasting one another with "fuck you, you live in a nice house" and "fuck you, you're lazy" and "fuck you, explain your personal health problems in detail".

Meanwhile ACA and the collusion with the insurance industry and Big Pharma mean that we are being forced to subsidize incomprehensible wealthy businesses.

When doctors raise their rates to cover the new ACA administrative nightmare, people complain about the doctors giving healthcare and not the parasites putting an insurance markup on healthcare.

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OneHungLo

Ignorance is bliss I guess. Out of the top 20 hospitals in the world what flag do you see the most?

_Richard_

but if you guys cover these college students, how will you all pay for all that foreign aid given to, gasp, muslims!!?! (heavy heavy sarcasm here)

aka123

I don't deny you having fancy hospitals, especially as it is known that certain insured ones get over-treatment, at least test-wise.

But..

"The United States healthcare system is the most expensive in the world, but when it comes to health outcomes, it performs worse than 11 other similar industrialized nations, according to a new report released today by the Commonwealth Fund."

U.S. Healthcare: Most Expensive and Worst Performing - The Atlantic

Survey Ranks the U.S. Health Care System Lowest in Performance

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries - Forbes

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Robbie

1. You are exactly right. But The President promised that this would bring the cost of healthcare DOWN.
And fuck no we don't subsidize the rest of the world for pharmaceuticals. That's a line of b.s. put out to justify price-gouging us here in the U.S.

2. How does taking my money to pay for other people's doctor visits have anything to do with roads and the military? That's a weird analogy you're stretching for there.
Since most people don't pay taxes anyway...I'm already paying for other people to use the roads and also paying for the overbloated military.
Using the logic you are proposing then I should also pay for the food, clothing, going to the movies, etc. for everyone else from my own work?

Fuck that. I wasn't put on this Earth to be a goddamned slave. I'm here to live MY life and make the lives of my children and family better. Not to take care of strangers...unless I CHOOSE to through charitable acts.

Sorry man, no offense...but I don't go for that sitting around the campfire singing kumbaya nonsense. People should have to make their own way in this world. And overcharging my family to make an insurance company even richer while playing the "Helping the poor" card as an excuse, just doesn't cut it with me.

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OneHungLo

Even thought he US has the most cutting edge cardiovascular, cancer and neurological treatments in the world, the performance problem is with the hospitals, it's with the obesity problem.

kane

I'm not sure how this would lower the cost of healthcare overall. First, it does nothing to address the rising cost of medication. Second, many doctors, when they graduate college have a massive amount of debt. If you force them to work for free just for the privilege of being a doctor that is time taken away from when they can work for pay. If it were me I would just charge more when I was able to in order to make up for the time I was forced to work for free.

Wendy-Etology

get it together Obamaniqua

Mutt

Blaming the cost of healthcare on Obama or any other president who may come along is unfair, if Obama had his way it would have been a single payer system and you'd have the Canadian system, for good and for bad. As long as you have the healthcare insurance companies as middle men and you allow the pharmaceutical companies to charge what they want you're going to have extremely high health costs compared to other countries.

Get rid of the for profit middle men, they are completely unnecessary, they are parasites, and put price controls on the drug companies. The price for the same medications Americans pay through the nose for are a fraction of the cost around the world - the American middle class is in effect subsidizing the rest of the world and that's not fair. The vast majority of research that produces these new drugs are also funded in the United States.

The drug companies are laughing their way to the bank - the more people who have health insurance means more people visiting doctors and doctors have become prescription writing zombies - you'll now have armies of these 20 somethings now able to go for regular doctor visits every time they have the sniffles, then they'll tell the doctor they have been feeling sad - doctor immediately writes out an expensive prescription for Paxil or whatever.

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Mutt

Yeah you do. The cost of developing new drugs is staggering. For every drug that gets approved and is useful there are hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain for drugs that never make it. If the drug companies couldn't charge Americans what they do they'd have to raise the prices in other countries or make a whole lot less in profits, some would get out of the drug business, which we don't really want, drugs extend/save lives and for most people make their lives better.

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Grapesoda

see the same thing with you

AmeliaG

I agree with you 100% on your thoughts on what would be the right way to go.

I am baffled that you think the president we elected wanted to do the right thing, but mysteriously failed. What makes you believe this? Romneycare is the same corporate money sucking plan.

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Robbie

That is a load of propaganda put out by Big Pharma.
Why ONLY the consumer in the United States? Why not the consumers in wealthier countries.

Jesus...it's unreal that people will get fucked and then bend over and ask for more.

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Robbie

Bingo. He did exactly what he wanted. Full control of both houses when it was done and rushed through without even allowing the Congress to READ the damn thing!

Remember his promise? It was going to be televised on CSPAN so that the American people could watch the process of the bill being created.
Nope, didn't happen.

And then the FIRST thing the President did was bring in the heads of the big Pharmaceutical companies and cut a deal with them to ensure that they could continue to price gouge the American people...and that was done before the work even started on writing the AHCA!

It's amazing that some people seem more intent on defending a fucking politician than in seeing what was really done and the consequences it has had.

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Mutt

Why not consumers in wealthier countries? Because other wealthy countries nationalized their healthcare systems and put price controls on prescription drugs. The US doesn't so the drug companies set their prices higher in the US. Why do u think all those online Canadian drug sites popped up that Americans were buying from?

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Mutt

Because Obama and every other politician no matter how liberal they are know that it will be a very long road to a single payer system in the United States - so he took what he could get and can go down in history as the president who pioneered universal health coverage for Americans.

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Robbie

And why do you think that back in the early 1990's the U.S. border patrol started stopping cancer patients from the U.S. from crossing into Canada to buy their life-saving prescriptions from Canadian pharmacies?
Big Pharma Lobbyist's in Washington D.C. is why.

Can you imagine if you had a company that sold something and you managed to contribute enough money to enough Congressional candidates to get a free pass to price gouge without ANY regulation from the U.S.?
Especially if what you made was something that could mean life or death?

All I can tell you is...it amazes me the different perspectives I see (including yours). Money and power are what is happening with the prices we pay in the United States. Has nothing to do with "subsidizing" other countries.

The government is corrupt. And every big corporation in the world knows it.

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Robbie

LOL! He had TOTAL power. There was no "long road". If the Democrats really wanted it they could have just done it. (just like they did anyway with "obamacare")

Come on man...what they did was throw a scare tactic at the Big Insurance Corporations. Because with "Single Pay" (which should mean I reach in my pocket and pay my own goddamn bill...but has become the term for Govt. healthcare) the insurance companies would have went out of business overnight.

Multi-billion dollar companies based on the health insurance gamble would have disappeared.

Can you imagine the frantic deal-making and money changing hands that went on to stop that from taking place?

I'm not trying to be anti-Obama, but wow...to think he couldn't have done whatever he wanted to (because he DID against all Republican opposition) is just crazy.

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AmeliaG

What legislative votes would he have lost if he had tried to put single-payer through?

Corporate welfare for the insurance industry is not a stepping stone in the direction of universal healthcare.

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epitome

How about actually educating yourself besides blaming Obama?

Another problem that needs to be reformed (and not a result of Obamacare) is the shady ways pharmaceutical companies are able to extend their patents.

But hey, blame Obama (whose legislation was passed by Congress) rather than the real problem. The pharmaceutical companies who are consolidating and agreeing to secret exclusivity agreements for generic production are laughing all the way to the bank.

Robbie

Answer: NONE

Every Democrat voted for it. Every Republican voted against it.

That entire argument is just another bullshit excuse for apologist's who are desperately looking for some reason that the whole thing is a disaster...even though most rational people knew it before it was forced on us.

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ezgirl

What is a "dental discount card"? Where/how do you get them?

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arock10

the problem is citizens united/campaign finance ridiculousness

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Mutt

You're naive or disingenuous Robbie, even with the Democrats in control of Congress and the White House there was no way Obama and the Democrats would in one fell swoop dismantle the healthcare system and completely socialize/nationalize it. You know how powerful and rich the lobbies are who control the 2 parties, both of them get paid by the same groups - the political fallout would be humongous. I'm not even sure how these countries like Canada, the UK, France etc got to universal healthcare, a bit before my time, it couldn't have been overnight. The US system is extremely complex, many different interests, so even with Democrats being for universal healthcare they know it's going to be a gradual process.

I am in favor of a dual system, I believe every person deserves access to good healthcare, paid for by everybody who pays taxes no different than paying for schools and roads - the upper middle class and rich can pay for the best of the best healthcare/hospitals/doctors. In Canada, incredibly that's not allowed, everybody rich and poor gets the same treatment and services. If you want the best medicine can offer you have to leave the country, many of the rich do rather than wait their turn in long waiting lines. People are deluded by the government into believing that their healthcare isn't rationed, it absolutely is. In 95% of cases. and I'm just pulling that number out of my ass, the treatment they receive is very good, it's the same treatment they'd be recommended if they went to the Mayo Clinic for an opinion. The wait times, the overcrowding, suck but people just accept it.

The province of British Columbia, containing the city of Vancouver, a city the world thinks of as wealthy and world class, has TWO PET scanners to cover the entire large province - PET scanners are not that new, they are very expensive and very helpful in diagnosing and treating serious diseases like cancer. I will guarantee you that even the poorest US states have more than 2 PET scanners.

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Mutt

There was a bill in Congress that was for a single payer system?

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AmeliaG

No. There wasn't. But there should have been.

So please answer my question.

What makes you think the president we elected wanted to do the right thing?

What legislative votes would he have lost if he had tried to put single-payer through?

Corporate welfare for the insurance industry is not a stepping stone in the direction of universal healthcare.

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Barry-xlovecam

Robbie, because there are price controls in countries with nationalized healthcare
I used wget and the pdf seemed fine .. be warned if using windows
http://www.ita.doc.gov/drugpricingstudy
"Pharmaceutical Price
Controls in OECD Countries
Implications for U.S. Consumers,
Pricing, Research and Development,
and Innovation"
The International Trade Administration (ITA)
U.S. Department of Commerce
125 pages

Other countries regulation is obtaining pharmaceuticals at below fair-market pricing (it is alleged) and USA pharmaceutical buyers (insurance and retail) are getting ripped off for the difference (it is alleged).

So, I am not sure just who is fucking who -- but I am sure that USA consumers are getting fucked over.


21 graphs that show America’s health-care prices are ludicrous - The Washington Post

tony286

gov isnt black and white. The president isnt king, they got thru what they could get thru. Governing isnt ez as pundits and useless congressman state, everything done has a ripple effect. And the way our gov is setup, one senator can locked everything up.

Robbie

No, I was referring to the Affordable Health Care Act that was passed. To think that the President and the Democrats just couldn't pass "single pay" because of the Republicans is incorrect.

They could have passed it as easily as they did the current disaster. They CHOSE not too.
And they did that for the reasons you stated in your other post: Rich lobbyists from the big insurance corporations throwing money to make sure that didn't happen.

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Robbie

That sounds nice. A great excuse to price gouge Americans like they always have.

A "fair market price" is what the market will bear. But since the United States Federal Govt. makes SURE that it's very difficult for the average person to buy their prescriptions in other countries...that kind of changes things doesn't it?

There is a reason that "medical tourism" has gotten so big.

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Barry-xlovecam

Robbie, it gets worse.

Prescription drug prices are less for some in the two tiered healthcare system in the USA, Medicaid/Medicare and private paid insurance

So there is nationalized healthcare (for some) in the USA -- Medicaid/Medicare.

Guess who gets the bill?

kane

I actually think he would have lost a lot of votes had he tried to force through a single-payer system. Sure, those on the far left would have supported him, but man democrats get big donations from insurance companies, pharm companies ect. Those companies would have been all over them to vote no.

Here is a quote from Obama about why he didn't do a single-payer option. "Given that a lot of people work for insurance companies, a lot of people work for HMOs. You?ve got a whole system of institutions that have been set up."

He knew a single-payer system would have caused a sea change in the healthcare world with a lot of people losing their jobs. I'm sure there are plenty of democrats who would not want to be associated with such a radical change.

I, along with others, think single-payer is the end result of all of this, but I don't think Obama could have gotten it through even if he wanted it.

kane

As someone who for years paid cash for my medication I can tell you first hand that there are different prices for medicines for different people. Many pharmacies have one price they charge insurance companies, another that they charge medicare/medicaid and another that they charge cash paying customers. Many of them mark up the cash price to make up for the lower amount they might get by medicare or insurance.

onwebcam

That article is bullshit. The hospitals and dr's know the insurance companies are going to come along and "negotiate" later so they increase the "cost" to compensate. A uninsured person using my GF as an example was billed at 20% of the inflated cost. Yes it may appear as though the insured is paying less but were the monthly premiums factored in? Also who says you can't negotiate as well? I know someone who about a year or so ago severed 4 fingers and he was uninsured. His cost to have them reattached he said negotiated a settlement was around $18k out of pocket. The inflated bill was originally $80+k.

Try the discount dental card on for size. See how much it costs you for a crown with your insurance and then see how much it costs with cash + "discount dental." Nearly 100% of the time it costs more out of pocket being insured.

onwebcam

Dental Plans | Dental Insurance Alternatives | 40+ Plans

Another problem with dental insurance is waiting periods. So if you were just recently insured with a new company or whatever and you all of a sudden broke a tooth being insured you will pay the "non-discounted" price because your insurance doesn't cover it until after a year or whatever. No waiting periods on "discount dental" and in most cases you end up paying less than you would have being "insured."

arock10

Dental insurance is more or less a scam and is different then health instance. They all have upper limit caps (which aren't that high) and it defeats the point of having insurance

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jscott

That means absolutely nothing, those are the best, or top hospitals in the world? based on what? on fairness of treatment to patients, best hospital restaurants, cleanest? showing a list of hospitals rankings and not even telling us what those rankings are based on? now that my friend = ignorance LOL

Nice try tho

Robbie

Unless it was George Bush.
The Democrat Party pretty much has painted it that he WAS a King with ALL the power. Matter of fact, anything bad happening now is still Bush's fault.
And Bush was able to get anything and everything passed.
Apparently during the Bush Administration...NONE of the Democrat Senators had the power to "lock everything up".

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AmeliaG

ALL insurance plans are based on the idea that the overall amount paid in by everyone will be much more than the cost of everyone's actual needs. Health, dental, car insurance, they are all for profit.

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Horatio Caine

Paid $35 for prescription medication. Cash price tag said $475. WTF is going on?

Joshua G

lots of dumbass in this thread.

obamacare is not what it was supposed to be. it was supposed to require all states to set up exchanges. one reason insurance rates are screwed up is that a republican supreme court gave states the power to opt out of setting up exchanges/extending medicaid. remember that wasnt supposed to happen?

the law was also supposed to have a public option, a non-profit plan run by the govt to give private insurance some competition! that was scuttled by democrats in the senate. max baucus got a big check from big insurance to make sure private insurers can maintain their monopolies.

so yeah, some insurance policies are messed up. just wait until the supreme court doubles down on the chaos it created, when it forbids the feds from extending subsidies to states that were not supposed to be allowed to opt out to begin with.

as far as single payer, dems never brought it to the floor cause they knew it had no chance. They woulda been better off just extending medicare to everyone & letting those with means opt for better coverage. But creating a big new federal bureaucracy is far more attractive to the party whose primary income is public-employee-union revenue.

bottom line, dems are running healthcare badly. but thats better than anything republicans propose, which is to return to letting people die because they got cancer & didnt have a job. meanwhile insurance execs still can buy a second yacht, regardless which party runs things.

PornoMonster

I wish someone would go back and look and CHART the % over the last 10 years of how much things have went up...
Premiums
scripts
so on

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PornoMonster

There are some good things given that.

I have Asthma and have never had a problem with insurance.

A DJ I work with is a diabetic and has had lots of problems finding insurance.
He check out several Obama care places and it was NOT cheaper for him.
The monthly went down about $100, but the deductibles doubled, so he kept his own insurance...

There is a story for either side or in the middle, the question is what is the MAJORITY?

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PornoMonster

Well when people "usually rich and or famous" fly from their country to USA to get something done that is Major... Ummm that says it all....

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PornoMonster

Exactly, and some companies if you write them will give you free meds... Without Obama care, ha...

Everything is marked up to pay for the people who don't pay or now I guess the Obama care prices...

Companies and Stock holders are not going to take the hit, if they can help it.

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PornoMonster

NICE..........Post......

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kane

Here is some info on premium increases.

National Trends in the Cost of Employer Health Insurance Coverage, 2003?2013 - The Commonwealth Fund

This one shows that on average from 2003-2010 when Obamacare was passed the average policy went up in price 5.1% per year and the average deductible went up 10.2%. Since Obamacare the annual increase is 4.1% per year and 7.5% deductible increase per year.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...-premiums.aspx

This link has a ton of info. In one area it says from 2004-2006 the average family premium went up 8.8% per year.

The reality is that premiums and deductibles have been on the rise for a decade.

Robbie

What's the "one area"?

I have had Blue Cross/Blue Shield since 2002. My deductible is $3,000

In 2002 my premium was $476 a month for a family of four. In 2009 my premium was around $550 (same policy) for a family of four.
Since Obamcare was enacted my premiums have risen like crazy.
My current premium (same policy I have had since 2002) has went up from $550 a month for a family of four in 2009 all the way up to over $1,000 a month for a family of 3 (one less person).

My policy is through Blue Cross/Blue Shield of South Carolina. I moved to Vegas in 2008 but my policy is still written in South Carolina.

I went on the "exchange" last year because in 2014 my premium had already risen to over $900...and some wise ass on GFY told me that I should go to the exchange.

I could have gotten a policy for around $50 a month cheaper than the one I already have...but with a $5,000 deductible.

This SUCKS.

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kane

The area I was referring to just meant an area on the page. There is a graph in the middle of the page.

You got hose. There is no question about it. I am just saying on average the average person has seen their premiums rise about the same under Obamacare as they did in the 10 years before it.

The thing is most people don't realize it because they get their insurance through their employer who pays all or most of it.

Robbie

Yeah, people who work for other people in jobs that have health insurance probably don't notice it at all.

But everyone that I'm talking about are people who pay their own insurance. And maybe I'm wrong...but I haven't heard of any big companies that pay for employee insurance all happy over lower premiums.

Am I wrong about that? Or have the vast majority of people actually seen a decrease in their "health care" costs like we were told that this was needed so badly for in the first place.

His promise of lowering premiums was supposed to happen right off the bat. And it was supposed to be only the beginning of all the good news...
But instead of me or you or some of the guys on here who think I'm crazy talking about it, let's hear from the man himself:

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