dyna mo

there's nothing sad about creating safe boundaries around loved ones.

TROLLENSTEIN

Oxygen causes oxidation which causes free radicals to be released which damage cell walls within our bodies, therefore with your line of reasoning breathing is an unreasonable risk. I understand the point you're trying to make and probably at some level agree with it, but to say "because they are exactly that, deadly and lethal ticking time bombs." is a ridiculous statement.

dyna mo

TROLLENSTEIN, are you opposed to any attempts to study, research, and statistically categorize dogs by danger? the rottweiler is the 2nd most dangerous dog on the list, do you also disagree that rottweilers are dangerous?

TROLLENSTEIN

Not at all. I'm just of the opinion that while all dogs are most certainly capable of attacking a person, not all dogs will. It's a cliche (forgive me!) but... A lot of people think guns are bad. But a gun and a responsible owner should never be tarred with the same brush as the few lunatics that cause the problems. Same with dogs.

Grapesoda

my dog was built for personal protection

kane

Using the gun analogy doesn't work. In 2012 there were 190,342 guns reported lost or stolen. Where do those guns end up? Many of them end up in the hands of criminals. This means there are hundreds, if not thousands of responsible gun owners who lost a gun in some way or another and that gun ended up in the hands of criminal who may have used it to carry out a crime.

To me that is like saying, "My pit is amazing and would never hurt anything." Then when the dog gets out of the yard or wanders off or is alone and does something violent you say, "Well, I wasn't there with the dog. If I was it wouldn't have happened."

You rarely hear about a responsible pit owner with their dog on a leash having the dog suddenly, violently attack someone or something. You regularly hear about them getting out of their yards or something wandering into the yard or something happening when the owner isn't present or nearby.

The pit is the gun. Sometimes you can be a responsible owner who raised the dog well, but as you say yourself all dogs are certainly capable of attacking. If pits do attack they can do massive damage.

But I ask pit owners this. What do you get from a pit that you can't get from a lab, a golden retriever or some similar dog? Surely they will both love you unconditionally. They will be good companions. What, beyond the stigma of owning a pit, is the attraction to owning one?

2MuchMark

I get it. People love their animals like they were their own children. Unfortunately this same love also clouds peoples best judgement. Pitbulls are dangerous animals, and the owners need to be held responsible for any damage they cause to any person or other pet.

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TheSquealer

You get increasingly irrational with your reaching... You yourself admitted that pit bulls were selectively bred to fight and possess those related traits (aggressive nature etc). Every time a pit bull acts like a pit bull, everyone blames the owner as if they know anything at all about the owner and NEVER has anyone agreed "yeah, this one is not on the owner". You have no more argument. You already admitted they are a big risk in terms of safety and that disturbing behaviors are ingrained in their DNA making them prone to violent attacks.

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ErectMedia

Fixed it for ya.

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Probably wouldn't work out so well with alligators though.

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TheSquealer

Anyone that argued "sheep dogs don't try to herd things and their genes have nothing to do with it... they only try to herd things when they have bad owners" would be laughed at by the same people who try to deny pit bulls are often attacking things for the same genetic reasons.

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crockett

Yea that was kinda the point I was getting at when I brought up Border Collies, Blood Hounds ect.. They do what they do because they have been selectively bred to be good at their task..

Just like pits were bred to be good at fighting and killing.

OneHungLo

but the baby must have done something to set the pit bull off.

/ pit bull apologist

OneHungLo

But I thought the pit was a 'nanny' dog.

AmeliaG

I used to have an Old English Sheepdog. She came from a champion bloodline, so there should not have been anything genetically anomalous about her. And she never tried to herd anything that I can recall.

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TROLLENSTEIN

How can you be a responsible gun owner and just lose a gun? You can't. If the gun is stolen and then if bad things happen with your gun after it is stolen you can't be blamed, the person using the gun to do bad things is entirely at fault. All guns, when loaded, are capable of killing people but that obviously does not mean all guns will kill people. Same for dogs, same for cars, same for anything really. We are all capable of killing other people, it's built into us. But very few of us kill other people. Some people do kill other people tho, but we don't tar the entire human race over the actions of a small bunch of lunatics.

I get the same as any other dog, she just happens to be a Pit bull. Suggesting I shouldn't love my dog simply because of a stigma others have placed on my dog is silly.

TROLLENSTEIN

Could you point out a single instance of me being irrational and "reaching"? My argument is that not all dogs will go bananas, a small percentage will of course, but not all. Your argument is that ALL Pit bulls will go bananas at some point. No exceptions. So following that reasoning one would expect that each and every pit bull owner would have been attacked by their dog at one point in time... and that is, obviously, not the case. Right? So that being true, you've sunk your own argument. And I can't argue with that.

kane

But what made you choose a pit bull? Was she a rescue or a dog someone gave you? Did you know she was a pit when you chose that particular dog. If you did know she was a pit why did you choose that particular breed?

mopek1

Looking at only one dog and saying that because he did, or did not do something behaviorally, is proof that inborn temperament does not exist is just ... wrong.

Nobody adopts or buys pit bulls to herd sheep.

Nobody adopts or buys Newfoundlanders to kill rats

Nobody adopts or buys Shih Tzu's to lead the blind.

Amelia in that statement above you are implying that everyone who works with dogs has got it wrong, and that dogs can all do whatever we want them to with the same level of effectiveness, if we just train them the right way.

I don't think so.

People use specific breeds for a reason.

TROLLENSTEIN

She is a rescue dog. I knew right away she was a Pit bull from just looking at her. The people at the rescue explained she'd (and 17 other Pit pups) been removed from a location were she would probably be used a bait dog or used to breed until death. They were desperately looking for people to help instead of just having them all put to sleep so I liked her best and haven't regretted it for a single moment. It wasn't a case of setting out to get a Pit bull to use as a dick extension (I despise those people, too) or anything like that. She just needed someone to give her a chance so I did.

mopek1

Of course the baby did!

There are also several stories of poodles killing babies which are covered up by the media and never made public so that we can all continue to hate on Pit Bulls for no reason whatsoever.

MakeMeGrrrrowl

I have 3 border collies here. All three herd. Two more so than the other.

They are known to be nippy, not great with children and not necessarily "gentle" herders. If I did not live on a farm, I would not likely own one. They most definitely need a job.

Pitbulls are so inbred (in my opinion) that the genetics are completely fucked up. How many states are people banned from owning them in?

Jesse1984

Apply the same logic to gun ownership, especially in southern states. Compare gun deaths in the US to a country like Australia where there is highly restricted gun ownership. Compare deaths per capita.

Is it the fault of the idiot asshole gun owners for the gun deaths who don't know what responsible firearm ownership is, is it the governments fault for allowing them?

Assholes with pitbulls and people that get them and don't know how to properly train them are at much higher risk for attacks. Pitbulls were bred with purpose in mind but even that has control aspects as they can't just guard shit and then attack the owner for coming back to the thing the pitbull is guarding.

Just because you have a vendetta against something doesn't make your logic right or righteous.

SuckOnThis

OneHungLo

Looks like they may charge the parents. They should start charging every fuckwad that owns these dogs when they get loose and attack innocent people.


Source - Dallas Police say they’ll refer a dog-mauling death to grand jury to determine if criminal charges should be considered.

10-week-old Brayden Lamar Wilson was momentarily left unattended in a bouncing seat in his Red Bird area home Sunday afternoon, according to police. The family pet, a pit bull, mauled the baby and also one of his parents when they came in and tried to save the child. But little Brayden Lamar Wilson was pronounced dead at the hospital.

The baby’s grandmother told CBS-11 News the dog was eight years old and that two older children had grown up with it. “It’s just unexplainable, said Willetta Tate. “You just don’t get it when you’ve had the dog so long, I don’t know what could have happened. I don’t know.”

“Those kids, they sleep with him and everything,” she continued, speaking of her surviving grandchildren, age 8 and 11. But Sunday the family pet named Grady turned murderous predator, mauling ten week old Brayden in a bouncing seat while the parents were outside. When the father returned from turning on a sprinkler he found Grady attacking Brayden. “Once he got the dog off the baby he proceeded to bring the dog out and she had the dog and the dog was trying to get away from her,” according to Tate.

The father shot the animal twice, killing it, but not before it bit the mother as well. Today bandages could be seen on her both wrists as she returned home with her children. They spent the morning being re-interviewed by Child Protective Services to make sure there was no further danger to the children’s welfare. Tate says they’re struggling for answers.

“It’s just unexplainable,” according to Tate. “Like I said, kids play with him every day, littler kids, nieces and nephews and I just… I don’t know.”

Some of those same kids played with neighbor Chanel Villarreal’s daughter, too. Villarreal took it hard. “I was devastated. I felt so bad, I was like, ‘Oh, my God. A dog attack? In our neighborhood?’ And then when I heard it was a baby I felt so bad.”

But she cautions don’t be quick to blame the breed. She owns a pit bull herself and says the rumors of all dogs being unstable is a myth. “But that reputation isn’t true; not all pit bulls are like that. Some are, some are not.” She added, “It is unfair, because you can’t stereotype a pit bull.”

Child Protective Services interviewed the family last night and again today, according to Tate. CPS has no record of any previous history with the family.

Jel

I just can't understand it. I mean, dogs have the same brain capacity/process as humans, right? How in hell could a dog think this way after weighing up the fact it slept fine with humans, and humans had never hurt it? Sometimes it's like dogs don't have any logic at all, or are just too lazy to learn things humans tell them. If only there was some way to determine whether or not dogs aren't humans, and don't have the same thought processes.

ps dogs are exactly like guns - I've lost count of the number of times a gun owner was responsible, yet the gun fired shots on it's own because it had a meltdown in it's cute, fuzzy, human-like brain.

pps I'm a complete neutral, but some funny shit in this thread

tony286

Mine was a pit mix, she passed away in Oct at almost 11 yrs old. The day we went to the pound, I was looking for another Boston Terrier. I had two and wanted another. She was just such a happy dog wagging her tail like crazy in her cage looking at me. I told her to sit and she sat. I adopted her, now she was very den aggressive which made her an amazing watch dog. She made alot of noise but she never bit anyone or anything. I would take her for a bath and she would be so afraid she would be shaking and there was never a problem. Once we were in a hotel, waiting for an elevator and when the doors open. Five little children ran out and yelled doggie,surrounded her and started petting her, she just sat there. I think its more how they are raised and also I would never let a dog I had outside without a leash and if it was in my backyard I was there with them.

tony286

I think there are signs, there is a problem with the dog and people ignore them. Then they say this happened out of the blue.

dyna mo

the pit bull/gun analogy doesn't ring true for me. a better comparison is the one between pitbulls and people who carelessly die because of something they initiated.

the guy shot in the back and killed by police
the guy killed in the theater for texting
the guy killed for playing his radio too loud in the parking lot

those guys would all be alive now if they didn't put themselves at risk. it doesn't matter that the cop was wrong, the dude is dead now. i'm sure he'd rethink the sitch in hindsight if he could and decide not to run.

same with pit bulls, i'm not going to put myself at risk by being around aggressive bully dogs. at the end of the day, when the dog goes bezerk on a whim and kills a person, that person is dead for good, at that point, the debate is moot. loved one lost. why risk loved ones over a dog? why open myself up to massive liability in public with a bully dog?

that defies my logic.

TheSquealer

Dogs have much more primitive brains than humans. You are pondering and contemplating, thinking forward, thinking backward, you are remembering, imagining scenarios in your mind, imagining different outcomes etc etc etc and a dog does not posses the ability for any of that and there is little evidence that a dog has any conscious awareness of anything at all... but are just following urges and responding instinctively. Though there is some circumstantial evidence that a dog may possibly possess some slight degree of conscious awareness, it is not much, if any at all. The primary function of conscious thinking in any animal is to interrupt those innate instinctive programs.... for example, like a dog chasing his tale, there is nothing interrupting the urge to do it with the idea of "hey man, you're just not gonna catch this fucking thing, maybe it's time to stop" and THAT is the precise function and purpose of conscious thinking and awareness.

Though animals appear to have distinct personalities, its largely only that which we project upon them as we humanize them. Sure some appear happier, some not, some more energetic, some not, some more dependent, some not etc but these are all just minor variations in brain development, brain activity in certain areas and genetics and its us largely inventing the "personality". But it's the "instinctive urges" part that is the problem. Just like any other wild animal that is thought to be friendly or domesticated, they can be triggered. When an animal already has the genes for horrible behavior, it can come out at any time. When an animal has the genes for horrible behavior AND it's being encouraged by environment, that's a bigger issue.

Any animals basic instinctive behaviors are guided by very simple programs of the brain "approach/avoid", "kill and eat/ignore - its not food", "nurture protect/attack" etc. Though everyone seems to want to believe their dog is just a few days away from finishing a doctoral thesis on particle physics, they just aren't capable of any sort of human like understanding of the world around them as those areas of the brains and all the functionality that makes that possible is absent.

The funny part to me is that when you point out obvious neurobiological truths of how an animals brain works... they get intensely upset. That should also tell you how strong the desire is of people to believe their pet is much more than they are. After all, if it was simply "untrue", no one would care any more than me saying "dogs can't fly".

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2MuchMark

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WarChild

I was going to post a well thought out big long reply but then I realized that would just be a waste of time.

Breed Ban Legislation is ineffective, period. The CDC, ASPCA, American Veterinary Medical Association and pretty much any professional trainer will tell you this.

I quickly looked through all of your dissenting opinions and unfortunately was unable to find anybody with any qualification at all. When presented with an argument supported on one side by GFYers and opposed by an overwhelming majority of professionals in the field, I'm going to go ahead and go with the professionals. Even if the GFYers include baddog light.

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dyna mo

i've not mentioned banning any breed of dog in this thread and i've never advocated banning a breed.

my dissenting comments are re: personal accountability based on statistics.

Grapesoda

good fucking point..thank you

pimpmaster9000

and this specifically does not mean shit...its 100% up to the owner how the dog behaves or whether it aggressive or not...its a dog with a great potential to do physical harm no argument about that, but claiming that it is an evil breed or more aggressive than others is bullshit...

for an experienced owner it is a dream dog...

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crockett

Yea because as it was pointed out "sheep dogs" only want to herd things because of a human.. Your logic does not compute.

kane

Good for you for rescuing a dog and good for her to have found a good home. It sounds like a good match.

I am just worried about the people that perpetuate the stereotype. It seems like so many pit owners are either people that are desperate to disprove the stereotype and have no idea how to handle the dogs or they are people who love the stigma of having a badass dog which does neither they nor the breed any good.

TheSquealer

Stereotype?

Like this:

"Pit bulls make up 6 percent of the dog population in Canada and the US, but they are responsible for 68 percent of dog attacks and 52 percent of dog-related deaths from 1982 to 2009, TIME Magazine reported."

Nothing to worry about? Misunderstood? No problem at all?

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Rochard

crockett

I actually looked into getting a Border Collie because they seem like the perfect mid sized dog. However after reading about them, I realized they really do love to be workers and have something challenging to do. Just taking them out for walks isn't enough to keep them happy.

kane

Most stereotypes exist because they are true.

dyna mo

This is why the argument that the statistics are flawed because some percentage of pitbull attacks weren't specifically the pit bull breed. So what if its not 100%pure breed, it fits the stereotype of pit bull statistics.

MakeMeGrrrrowl

Yah undeniably they need a job, or agility which is what a lot of people do with them. My dads dogs mostly love to play ball and I wouldn't trust the male dog to herd my goats without killing them, as he as already killed a small dog and bit a person running down the road. Like I said, they are not gentle herders, more for horses, less for sheep. Hopefully I can get the littlest one trained for it all and agility.

I will be photographing pit bulls in about two weeks, in my yard. I'm definitely freaked out about it. In general I love for my daughter to be in the SPCA's dogs for adoption photos that I've taken because they go real fast then, but I'm afraid to do that. Shit just happens so fast.

crockett

Pit bull is usually the dominat genes.. If it lab/pit it still looks like a pit for example but who knows if the lab genes tame it some.

SuckOnThis

I've had 3 border collies and I wouldn't get any other breed. They are highly intelligent and yes they love to work but they love just as much to be around you. They are extremely energetic for their first few years but once you get past that you will be rewarded with the best friend you could ever have.

MakeMeGrrrrowl

I too don't think I will personally purchase another breed when my dogs start to go. I am in love with the border collie.

Far-L

So many dogs are labeled "pit bulls" but in fact are not actually pit bulls. For example, many people see English Staffs, the dog of "Our Gang" and the Victrola poster dog, and think they are "pit bulls" and they are not. In fact, those were bred to be good family dogs, not fighting dogs. I have two mix breed dogs - one that is a boxer lab mix and many people think it is a pit and it is not at all.

I go to leashless parks daily. The only dogs I have ever seen attack other dogs with intent to hurt are not the pits, the pit mixes, etc, but the varieties of Shepherds people would also incorrectly lump together as "German Shepherds" as well as wolf mix huskies and akitas.

So, the logic also fails on the fact that "pit bull attack" statistics incorrectly identify many dogs as "pit bulls", which has become a sort of generic catch-all term, thereby greatly skewing the results.

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L-Pink

Here's something you don't read about every day .......

Pompey II, a police stallion on routine patrol en route to the 75th Precinct in Brooklyn, suffered numerous puncture wounds and abrasions Wednesday when he was attacked by a loose pit bull, according to police.


But under the steady hand of his rider, Officer Luis Ramos, Pompey II stayed under control and kept in front of the dog while another police horse -- Limerick -- ridden by Officer Laurene Bove, drove the attacking animal back toward Essex Street, according to the NYPD.

The owner of the pit bull, who wasn't identified, was able to secure the dog. The canine was taken to a local New York Animal Care & Control, or ACC, facility where it will be evaluated, according to police.

NYPD horse attacked by pit bull - Newsday


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femdomdestiny

Common sense says that if bichon on shin tzu bite you, you will think it was a mosquito.
They can be 10 times more aggressive, it doesn't matter. But once pit bull (or similar type of dog that was made to kill) grab your artery , you won't have enough time to reconsider your opinion.

Last night I was looking at young girl going with her dad and having some small dog on collar. Three women were coming their way and small white dog become aggressive and started barking and going fast toward those people. Their reaction was to laugh , stop and say how cute is small white dog, even if he is aggressive (but he is not dangerous).

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kane

This, I think, is ultimately the point. I think the dogs that bite the most, statistically speaking, are either Chihuahuas or Dachshunds. I have a friend whose aunt has a Dachshund that bites everyone that comes over and she thinks its cute. The difference, as you point out, is when a little Chihuahuas bites you it might not even leave a mark. If a pit gets aggressive with you then you likely have real trouble.

The other day I did a google search and found that the best estimate is that there are around 53 million dogs in the US. Of that around 5.3 million of them are purebred pit bulls. In 2014 there were 27 people killed by pits. Clearly the dogs aren't running amuck killing wholesale, but they do have the ability to destroy a person if they want.