dyna mo

here's my fucking post here, you need to realize you are not up against your fellow 3rd graders here. i didn'te berate you or your fucked-up view in order to post mine. so fuck off with your bullshit comment about me telling you you are wrong.

crockett

I don't care what groups support it. They are still spying on US citizens with out a warrant and are mass collecting data, once again with out a warrant. You can tell me baby Jesus says that's ok, but I'm still going to tell you to go to hell.

The warrant-less spying needs to end period. No excuses, no exceptions. We don't need "first steps" it's been 15 years, it needs to end. The simple fact is the USA Freedom Act extends the Patriot Act. Meanwhile if it is not approved the Patriot Act ends..

So extend the Patriot act or end it.. I say end it..

dyna mo

again, i posted my view, standing on its own.

Phoenix

Justice will not really be served until politicians are held responsible for their actions.
Examples of them getting away with corruption are rampant and almost in our faces.
The hypocrisy of do as you are told and not as we do is scary.
For instance, banking regulators and the SEC get away with everything. Everything.
Under the Patriot Act they build super data centers to record everything online.
Examining all that data is not currently possible, however they can target someone.
Lying to the people seems to be the norm, I think it should be a felony.
Corrupt politicians who lie to get into office should be charged with a felony.
A few years in jail would dissuade most of them from chasing power for money.
No one should have more rights than others, even the hate spewing maggots out there.
This new bill, is just a way to further degrade the rights of the Americans and then others.
My personal take on it is that info will soon be used on people to persecute
Ending free speech and a free society by attacking the loudmouths.
Look at some countries who imprison those who speak out against the power holders.
There is no shortage of tragic stories where they throw people away for life.
Soon we can expect the same for us, the writing is on the wall. Freedom is not Free.
The rampant push and divide amongst the races seems to be a tool against everyone.
Everyday pushing the people further and further away from helping each other.
End game will result in a race war, which will then need to be controlled by government.
Looking out for your safety is how it will begin.
Before long they will be more proactive and take your cell phone records.
Ending any amount of freedom to assemble or free speech you thought you had.
Anarchy almost seems to be invited right now by the powers that be, so they can control.
My best guess is that they are just waiting for a tipping point to go ahead and begin.
Stay safe and keep your head down.




oh...and read the first letter of each line.

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crockett

We just saw once again how the banking sector gets away with their crimes. The feds dished out a big fine just yesterday or the day before over the financial crash wrong doing. Of course it will likely never be paid in full. No one gets charged with any crimes, no one involved goes to jail.

The best part is the consumers whom were ripped off get none of their money back. The fine is all paid to the govt and we can all assume it will be reduced by shit loads in back room deals with lawyers after 10 years of appeals.

Yet they will send some guy away for 10 years because he posted pictures online..

PR_Glen

Jet fuel, impact and pressure can make it break though.

but kooks avoid that part..

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Robbie

They are ALL "stupid enough". It's human nature. Look at how many times even the smartest people can get tripped up by clever "interviewers".
Especially after a long day and they hit you with some question out of left field.

So you ponder it briefly and give an answer. Sometimes the answer comes out wrong.

Obama is a smart guy, and his team does everything they can to keep it scripted. But even he goes off the reservation with remarks sometimes that bite him in the ass.

Has nothing to do with intelligence.

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baddog

You should stick to using words you understand; how do you defiantly support someone?

Robbie

That's because her own husband Bill is the one who was talking about Iraq and "weapons of mass destruction" near the end of his Presidency.

He not only made several televised speeches about it...but he also made a "video letter" to Saddam Hussein that was broadcast as well. in which he threatened to send in the military.
Not to mention that he bombed Baghdad.

Hillary is correct in saying it was the wrong thing to do.

But unlike the media and Democrat politicians...she can't re-write history and claim that Bush "lied" about it....unless her husband lied about it too. (which is probably the correct answer...they both were lying)

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dyna mo

BO's official foreign policy mantra: don't do stupid shit.



https://www.google.com/search?q=obam...sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Barry-xlovecam

You mean just "don't do shit" above boards anyway or "Talk big and carry a little stick" ... zing

Presidents I remember:
Kennedy: too young to really remember
Johnson: Foreign Policy Failures -- Vietnam War
Nixon: Foreign Policy Failures -- Dollar Devaluation, Abandonment of the Bretton Woods fixed exchange rate system, Overthrow of Allende in Chile, Vietnam War
Ford: Foreign Policy Failures -- ?? WIN Buttons
Carter: Foreign Policy Failures -- Middle East, allying with bin-Laden against the Soviets (look where that got us)
Reagan: Foreign Policy Failures -- Yawn! He may have not been totally responsible for his actions due to mental incapacity -- had moments of clarity like most Alzheimer's disease patients do in the early stages. His stooges advocated a confrontational foreign policy most of the time, then woke Ronnie up to sign the paper and afterwords gave him cookies and milk an told him it was nap time again...
GH Bush (Daddy Bush): Foreign Policy Failures -- First Gulf War outcome (look where that got us), Mogadishu
Clinton: Foreign Policy Failures -- Mogadishu, Rwandan Genocide, Let al-Qaeda get out of hand (in all fairness he was distracted by impeachment showboating of the opposition )
GW Bush (Baby Bush): Foreign Policy Failures -- every foreign policy decision he made turned to shit.
Obama (AKA:Baby Jesus): Foreign Policy Failures -- Gitmo, FATCA, Iran-- the worst may yet to come, has 1 1/2 years to go.

These were all smart men -- if they were from your political persuasion ...

Successive American governments have never made wise foreign policy decisions that I recall. Presidents Madison and FDR (Roosevelt WW2) are a few that did, according to the history books anyway.

dyna mo

was chatting with Robbie recently that i couldn't recollect any nation at any time that had successful foreign policy.

Barry-xlovecam

There were some successes along with the failures being most remembered notwithstanding GW Bush he was a total fuck up.

crockett

This topic isn't about foreign polices.. It's about domestic spying on US citizens with out warrants. To those whom think the USA Freedom act is a step in the right direction.. You are being bullshiited and lied to.. Don't be so fucking gullible.

As I said in the previous topic, the Freedom Act extends what the NSA can do and allows them to share info unrelated to terrorism with the FBI.

No, Congress did not just vote to end NSA spying | TheHill

ilnjscb

Here is the official mandate of the NSA:

"The protection and formulation of codes, ciphers, and other cryptology for the U.S. military and other government agencies as well as the interception, analysis, and solution of coded transmissions by electronic or other means. The agency conducts research into all forms of electronic transmissions. "

"Executive Order 12333, originally issued 4 December 1981, delineates the NSA/CSS roles and responsibilities. In part, the Director, NSA/Chief, CSS is charged to:

Collect (including through clandestine means), process, analyze, produce, and disseminate signals intelligence information and data for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes to support national and departmental missions;
Act as the National Manager for National Security Systems as established in law and policy, and in this capacity be responsible to the Secretary of Defense and to the Director, National Intelligence;
Prescribe security regulations covering operating practices, including the transmission, handling, and distribution of signals intelligence and communications security material within and among the elements under control of the Director of the National Security Agency, and exercise the necessary supervisory control to ensure compliance with the regulations."

This is from their web site before you start with the repub / dem lickspittle news accusation

That is as stupidly broad as anything I've ever seen, and typical of the self-enrichers that run the government. Literally, they could sit with their thumbs in their asses "analyzing" communications all day, since they have no required result to base any metrics on. However, that doesn't put enough money in the contractor's pockets, so they've invented a mandate to spy on everyone everywhere, in case someone's bad.

If no attacks happen, they're not paranoid assholes who spent all our money and destroyed our constitution, they're "protectors who saved us, allowing not a single successful terrorist attack despite over, um, let's say, 40, no 50! yeah, 50! 'credible threats'"

If attacks do happen, then they're not ineffective treasonous bureaucrats, they're "needed now more than ever, as is constant vigilance, and, regrettably, the temporary suspension of a few freedoms for the sake of 'national security'".

The people making billions off us are actually a lot smarter than most of us, and they have good help. Also, they don't have to follow any laws, which is useful.

Further, regardless of the "side" they're from, they have an army of rabid, brainless zombies trained to pause licking their leaders sacks long enough to carry out any order given them with only barest and stupidest justification.

I predict them for the win

onwebcam

crockett

It all just feeds on it's self at this point. They just keep getting more and more power and the people whom are elected are more than willing to keep on giving it to them.

Robbie

I am proud of you crockett.

It's the first time that I personally have seen you get passionate about something the govt. is doing that wrong.
I'm impressed brother!

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crockett

I've always been against the NSA spying.. I was also always against the Iraq war, even before it actually started. I'm also very much against lobbying & the fact that no one has gone to jail over any of the crimes committed by the banking industry which caused the housing & financial crash.

I'm against a lot of stuff our govt does..

Robbie

Tip of the hat to you crockett.

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crockett

We can all hope so.. but I will believe it when we see them dismantling their buildings..

However at least for now it seems to be headed in that direction..

crockett

I'm very much against a lot of things and just because I give Obama support on something, doesn't mean I agree with other things he does. Kinda like Rand Paul here.. I don't agree with much of what he does and says, but I agree 100% with him and the others whom also wouldn't sign off on the extension.

This is one of the reason I started trolling so much.. Because many people here will bitch for example no matter what Obama does. These these people there is nothing at all Obama could do right.. That to me is just dumb sheep mentally..

I mean hell I thought Bush fucked up our country in a very bad way, but it doesn't mean I didn't sometimes agree with something he did or didn't get a laugh out of things he might say.. Cheney on the other hand.. every time I saw him I wanted to punch him in the face...

I think people need to end all this political hack shit with their fake out rage at everything someone from the other team does. Yes everyone is going to dislike certain things happening, but really the Benghazi stuff and all the lies which have been told about Obamacare by the right.. I just have no tolerance for that.

I'm all for someone having the right to not agree or support what ever they want, but what's been going on since Obama was elected mostly from the right is just ridiculous and it's why I troll the way I do..

dyna mo

I'm with BO on this one. Like affordable healthcare, its not a panacea,

and the courts already ruled section 215 illegal.

The freedom act is a step in the right direction.

crockett

You don't seem to understand how wrong you are. The USA freedom act gives the green light to 215 and adds more data collection capabilities. If that bill was passed the NSA would be able to mass collect internet data browsing history, on smart phones and they would extend the data collection to land lines like VoIP phones.

Everything you seem to belive is fixed, was given a legal work around with in the new bill..

Also I dunno where you got that support letter before but the ACLU and even the Tea Party are both very much aginst the USA Freedom Act. Most of those groups on your list are political think thanks.. They don't give a shit about our rights, they are paid to sell you bullshit.


I suspect you just want to argue, so you looked up some fluff news to support you case, rather than look at what this bill would of done..

Right now we are in the best possible situation.. All the spying has to end and the patriot act also ends. As long as no deals are made before the 31st, which doesn't look like it will happen.

dyna mo

in fact crockett, i've tried to NOT argue with you in this thread and when i got a bit off track chatting with another poster here on a tangent, i stopped that and returned to the OP after you pointed it out, out of respect for your thread and topic.

so when i post back on track here, you lambast it and me for being gullible and naive etc and handwaving off my agreeing with BO and exclaim all i want to do is argue. well, keep on disrespecting my view, it only makes you look insecure with your's.

the reason i agree with BO on this is we are not going to dismantle the 4th branch of government in this bill. it's going to be a process and i wholeheartedly agree with many that this is a step in that direction. panaceas do not happen in reality.

crockett

If the patriot act is not extended, it means all domestic spying comes to an end.. How can you argue that extending that spying is better than not allowing g it at all?

It's very simple Dyna.. There is no possible way that mass collecting of data can stop anything in real time. It's 100% impossible unless they know exactaly whom to spy on at a given instant.

This means the only use of this data collection is to use it after the fact.. Now if they know enough as to who to listen to in real time, then they can already use existing wire tap rules to watch that person..

The spying goes aginst every principle of illegal searches and seizures which this country was founded on.

Added to this the freedom act makes it legal for the FBI to use this data which can be handed over by the NSA for non terrorism crimes.

dyna mo

none of that has anything to do with my view. i fully get that the nsa cannot point to any successes in countering terrorism due to section 215, which only applies to land lines as you know.


what is your view on the fact that FISA court has already determined scetion 215 illegal? yet the NSA keeps on? i don't see trying to railroad this bill when the nsa operates with impunity and it seems like that is where the issue is, in enforcing FISA rulings.

dyna mo

and that's not an attempt to get you to change your mind. those are real questions i have when i look at this bill objectively and part & parcel of why i have the view i have.

crockett

That latest ruling by the court didn't actually say the NSA was acting UN constitutionals or that they were acting illegally. The court gave a half ass ruling which stated that the NSA was doing more than what Congress had originally authorized.

The count in a sense rather than say it was unconstitutional, which would of forced the NSA to stop, instead threw the ball into Congress's hands. They opted to give Congress the decision as to if the spying should end, be reigned in some, continue on or given even more abilities..

What Congress did was change it up so certain things appeared better, but added loop holes which would allow even more spying power..

The simple fact is, we have been shown the NSA can't be trusted and they have abused the power they were given. It now needs to end because if it's not ended, it will only get worse.

Think about this Dyna.. Think of someone whom was as parinoid as Nixion was, had the abilities that our govt has today... It needs to end while we still have the ability to control the govt.

crockett

Honestly Dyna.. We have just had two extreemly important events take place which are pro Demoracy and pro freedom..

The Patriot Act appears to be shut down by Congress and Obama signed an executive order which a stops much of the excess military hardware going to police departments.. Both actions should be celebrated as good for our rights and civil liberties.

dyna mo

what do you mean "honestly dyna"? and spell my name right for once. i show you the same courtesy many many times.

i'm trying to have a discussion and you keep making comments like that.

it's like you've never actually persuaded anyone before/had a discussion.


anyway, it's more fun to not take you seriously.

gofuckyourself/

crockett

I did spell your name correctly.. I just didn't add the mo..

I was saying honestly.. Because I find it hard to believe that anyone could see this as a bad thing.. We are getting rights and freedoms back from the govt.. It's not very often that govt's are forced to give up power.

The patriot act didn't make us any safer.. The FBI and NSA have not once stopped a terrorist plot which they were not playing bait the tango.. This spying did not stop anything.

JJ Gold

Now you are just being silly.

crockett

Name one terrorist plot they managed to stop with information gained by domestic spying. The only people they have ever stopped are people they bait into buying shit from them then arrest them. ie it's about the same as placing a bait car and much like a bait car almost non of them would have likely carried out an attack if not for the FBI giving them the shit to try to do so..

pimpmaster9000

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nico-t

- there is no difference between a D or an R.
- read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

I doubt you will have the same views as you have now.

Barry-xlovecam

Well, the renewal bill died in the Senate and the NSA is shutting down the program.



However;


There were no conversations tapped/recorded.
There is no implied right of 1st Amendment Right of Association for criminal or terrorist purposes. Lawful purposes -- yes.

If the LA Times citation of: "About 300 such searches were made in 2014" is correct -- then you are just getting your panties in a bunch over this portion of the PATRIOT Act.

Odds are: There has been no compromise of your privacy.


Mobile phone calls and VOIP use SIP encryption and the message packets take the route of least resistance. Consequently, the routing methods cannot be predictable -- any supposed possible interception might only be partial.

The real intrusion into privacy is not covered by this bill.

The internet data (and probably this entire thread) is being scrapped, legally, and databased possibly as it is a public conversation.
But what of instant messaging text, IM video and audio?
The above communication has no expectation of privacy legally under US law.

The Dutch Government is more forthcoming in inquiry of these matters ... Somehow they can function without a law like the PATRIOT Act ...

Hey look at the monkey! The phone meta-data is inconsequential. Congress is full of shit (as usual).

Are "real" terrorists really that stupid to communicate in a venue subject to this scrape? Or, are we just stopping the idiot wannabes?

crockett

There are no differences when it comes to lobbyists getting what they want and both parties heavily favor defense contractors. Both parties also favor big out of control spending.

There is however differences on where they want their out of controlled spending going and various civil issues. With Democrats they usually want to spend heavily on social services, while Republicans want to privatize everything and hand truck loads of money over to big business.

It's both welfare, just different people getting it, but it has very different affects on people's lives..

crockett

They are just stopping the idiot wannbes.. Hence the reason the only people they have ever arrested ahead of a terrorist attack were people whom took their bait.

They see some idiots on message boards saying they want to jihad. Then they approach these idiots and convince them to attack a US target.. (ie the FBI usually develop the entire plot and is supplying the fictitious bombs weapons ect)

They then set up the deal to hand over these bombs/weapons and they bust the guy when he shows up claiming intent. This is shit they can do with out destroying everyone else's right to privacy..

The mass collection of data is just lazy police work.. Also the 300 look ups is BS.. That's 300 warrants.. They were not getting warrants for the mass data scraping and yes they were very much looking at that data. They were using blanket warrants to cover every one whom use a specific carrier.. ie so every single customer at Verizon wireless was 1 warrant.. not 1 warrant for 1 specific person.

pimpmaster9000

the US government is to the global economy what tubes are to porn...only it does not only do what tubes did, it takes the model much much further by robbing countries of their entire future and keeping them in complete debt slavery...

the EU are basically the US governments vassal states...with the US drone army 10-20 years away, I am hoping russia and china invest the fuck in to WMD of all sorts...not that the russians and chineese will treat smaller countries better, it would just be so refreshing to see the USA out of europe....

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Barry-xlovecam

The phone meta data is in plain text in the headings of the public IP packets -- it has no right of privacy by law -- get it?

Barry-xlovecam

@crockett -- why not worry about a real invasion of your privacy?
https://www.eff.org/issues/calea
CALEA law (1994) The FBI or NSA could be scraping up all communications (they both have domestic surveillance mandates)
With regard to a telephone numbers certain; they are using john doe warrants with various carriers (traditional phone carriers, VOIP, SKYPE, others) *. at carrier.

The best thing was to do nothing -- let the bill expire -- and that has occurred.

What will probably happen next is that the Senate will modify the wording and make in the past law withstand the constitutional scrutiny of the courts. The House and Senate conference committee will edit the 2 bills that passed into a bill that will be approved by both houses, Obama will sign it, and in the end: it will have the same parts you (and I in most cases) object to.

So, if you want real privacy use your own encryption keys that only you and the other parties privileged to the message have the keys to (certificates to).