Help rendering 4k Video - GoFuckYourself.com

mikesouth · 07-23-2015, 04:46 PM

Im mastering my shoots in 4K as for 1080P and all that I have those renders from 4k (UHD technically) down to a science so no problems there

but I want to make 4K available to my members

I would presume I want to use an mp4 container but its not a deal breaker

I presume I need to use the H.264 codec (would love to use H.265 but seems it isnt widely adopted)

I want to keep the file size reasonable, obviously this isnt for streaming, its for download and playback locally.

If you have experience with this and could suggest codec/container/settings it would be deeply appreciated...dont want to re-invent the wheel if I dont have to

My first try was using the mainconcept avc/mp4 codec (sony vegas 13) at 3840x2160x24p at 4.2mbits/sec (main profile)

imagine my surprise when it looks VERY different on windows media play than on quicktime and both look different than VLC....which looks best

I dont have a 4K monitor....but playing the video full size and seeing a quarter of it gives me an idea of what it looks like

anyway thats the long and short of it at the moment...anyone give me some ideas where to start? TIA

JimmyStephans · 07-23-2015, 05:14 PM

Mike,

My first thought was that it seems like a LOT of compression. Megabits? 1/8th of a Megabyte, so around 33MBPS?

Anyway, I've been doing UHD as downloads for 4 months and have tried many things.

Shooting with Sony and the XAVC S at 100MBPS setting.

Edit in Vegas. I render out as you have, Main Concept MP4 but closer to 50MBPS. Results OK but wouldn't play natively in my WMP.

I then tried sending out as XAVC S (which one forum claimed wouldn't recompress most footage). Then I took that file and sent through Handbrake, using X264 codec and MP4 results are decent. Plays fine in WMP.

As a test I took that same test file (XAVC S from Vegas) to my 4 year old iMac that has Final Cut X and Compressor. File would not import directly into Compressor. I put the file in Final Cut, then sent to Compressor. The final MP4 output from Compressor was visually better as compared to what came out of Handbrake - but remember, this process include a render from Vegas that I would prefer to avoid. In this test I manually adjusted the Compressor profile to have roughly same numbers as the Handbrake test. File size on HD was near the same.

As the last test I took the original footage, edited in Final Cut X and sent out to Compressor and that same Custom Profile. This final MP4 was the best of the bunch.

Like you - I don't have a 4K monitor, but the iMac has 2560 by 1440 resolution and I used Quicktime to just watch each file over and over, and had a friend do the same. The best files in my testing...

#1 The file created with full iMac workflow (Edit in Final Cut, render in Compressor). 2160p @ 50MBPS

#2 The file edited on Windows 7 machine with Vegas, rendered out as XAVC S, then moved to iMac and final MP4 made in Compressor.

Yes, I know that doesn't make any sense considering there is that extra render in #2, but its what we saw playing all versions of that test file on the iMac in Quicktime.

The test was 6 minutes, general video. Sky, Trees, a rabbit, blowing tree branches, cars passing by, etc.

mikesouth · 07-23-2015, 05:23 PM

Great info thanks and my experiences are inline with yours Im trying to get the compression down in the 4mb/s to 8mbp/s range to keep a 20 min file size reasonable at 4K resolution and thats where everything seems to really fall apart I know that H.265 addresses this and maybe that really is the direction I should go I will start testing on that and keep you posted thanks much this is helpful. maybe its reasonable to use H.265 considering anyone with a 4k machine should have the horsepower to play it Thanks

JimmyStephans · 07-23-2015, 05:27 PM

The settings in Apple Compressor.

JimmyStephans · 07-23-2015, 05:29 PM

NOTE - My 4K/2160p files are download only.

My streaming is using HLS and up to just 1080p.

NatalieK · 07-23-2015, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

Im mastering my shoots in 4K as for 1080P and all that I have those renders from 4k (UHD technically) down to a science so no problems there

but I want to make 4K available to my members

I would presume I want to use an mp4 container but its not a deal breaker

I presume I need to use the H.264 codec (would love to use H.265 but seems it isnt widely adopted)

I want to keep the file size reasonable, obviously this isnt for streaming, its for download and playback locally.

If you have experience with this and could suggest codec/container/settings it would be deeply appreciated...dont want to re-invent the wheel if I dont have to

My first try was using the mainconcept avc/mp4 codec (sony vegas 13) at 3840x2160x24p at 4.2mbits/sec (main profile)

imagine my surprise when it looks VERY different on windows media play than on quicktime and both look different than VLC....which looks best

I dont have a 4K monitor....but playing the video full size and seeing a quarter of it gives me an idea of what it looks like

anyway thats the long and short of it at the moment...anyone give me some ideas where to start? TIA

Is there a big different between mp4 & webm?

We're moving up to 4k with my new site, now wondering if the mp4 would be easier for streaming than the webm or are either mobile playable?

mikesouth · 07-23-2015, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyStephans

The settings in Apple Compressor.

THAT was good I was unaware that the High profile would work with UHD that may be the ONE thing that will help the most...when I tried it on sonys avc codec it crashed it but the mainconcept codec will likely work if gpu rendering is turned off...will let ya know Thanks

mikesouth · 07-23-2015, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GspotProductions

Is there a big different between mp4 & webm?

We're moving up to 4k with my new site, now wondering if the mp4 would be easier for streaming than the webm or are either mobile playable?

I wouldnt even consider webm I prefer to render one or two times and cover almost every device...thus the mp4 container and h.264

JimmyStephans · 07-23-2015, 05:51 PM

What Mike said is correct as for WEBM.

There is also another issue. That is a Google item these days and they are using it widely on YouTube, but the better / more current versions are not widely available to us normal folks.

Version 8, that Codec is in many programs

Version 9, not so many - seems only the places that render online for a fee have it. Even many of the Plug-ins they link to are the VP8 version last I checked in the spring.

The WebM Project | VPx and WebM Tools

I subscribe to a streaming media forum and those with more experience than me talk about it as being good, as well as MPEG-DASH and others...

The problem is getting everybody onboard. It took YEARS and YEARS for h.264 in the MP4 container to be so widespread as to be pretty much universal. Not sure if people want to take on that task again and again with each new codec.

EddyTheDog · 07-23-2015, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GspotProductions

Is there a big different between mp4 & webm?

We're moving up to 4k with my new site, now wondering if the mp4 would be easier for streaming than the webm or are either mobile playable?

I just got a 55 inch 4K TV from Carreffour in Torre for 850 Euros - That's half price - It's an LG and looks great - Try Habinaroros...

mikesouth · 07-23-2015, 05:57 PM

streaming media magazine and sites are a GREAT resource I have learned much there including about a small device called an Atomos Ninja that is a GREAT thing for pro level work with my D750

I started a render at 6 mbps 3840x2160 24P 2 pass high profile this ones almost an hour of video but itll tell me all i need to know even on a high end i7 itll likely be tomorrow night before its done...but I will post results Thanks man youve helped a LOT!

CaptainHowdy · 07-23-2015, 05:59 PM

Such informative threads make me feel deformed ...

07-23-2015, 05:23 PM	#3
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	Great info thanks and my experiences are inline with yours Im trying to get the compression down in the 4mb/s to 8mbp/s range to keep a 20 min file size reasonable at 4K resolution and thats where everything seems to really fall apart I know that H.265 addresses this and maybe that really is the direction I should go I will start testing on that and keep you posted thanks much this is helpful. maybe its reasonable to use H.265 considering anyone with a 4k machine should have the horsepower to play it Thanks __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

07-23-2015, 05:27 PM	#4
JimmyStephans Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Littleton, Colorado. USA Posts: 558	The settings in Apple Compressor. __________________ http://TrueBabes.com/

07-23-2015, 05:29 PM	#5
JimmyStephans Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Littleton, Colorado. USA Posts: 558	NOTE - My 4K/2160p files are download only. My streaming is using HLS and up to just 1080p. __________________ http://TrueBabes.com/

07-23-2015, 05:51 PM	#9
JimmyStephans Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Littleton, Colorado. USA Posts: 558	What Mike said is correct as for WEBM. There is also another issue. That is a Google item these days and they are using it widely on YouTube, but the better / more current versions are not widely available to us normal folks. Version 8, that Codec is in many programs Version 9, not so many - seems only the places that render online for a fee have it. Even many of the Plug-ins they link to are the VP8 version last I checked in the spring. The WebM Project \| VPx and WebM Tools I subscribe to a streaming media forum and those with more experience than me talk about it as being good, as well as MPEG-DASH and others... The problem is getting everybody onboard. It took YEARS and YEARS for h.264 in the MP4 container to be so widespread as to be pretty much universal. Not sure if people want to take on that task again and again with each new codec. __________________ http://TrueBabes.com/

07-23-2015, 05:57 PM	#11
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	streaming media magazine and sites are a GREAT resource I have learned much there including about a small device called an Atomos Ninja that is a GREAT thing for pro level work with my D750 I started a render at 6 mbps 3840x2160 24P 2 pass high profile this ones almost an hour of video but itll tell me all i need to know even on a high end i7 itll likely be tomorrow night before its done...but I will post results Thanks man youve helped a LOT! __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

07-23-2015, 04:46 PM	#1
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	Help rendering 4k Video Im mastering my shoots in 4K as for 1080P and all that I have those renders from 4k (UHD technically) down to a science so no problems there but I want to make 4K available to my members I would presume I want to use an mp4 container but its not a deal breaker I presume I need to use the H.264 codec (would love to use H.265 but seems it isnt widely adopted) I want to keep the file size reasonable, obviously this isnt for streaming, its for download and playback locally. If you have experience with this and could suggest codec/container/settings it would be deeply appreciated...dont want to re-invent the wheel if I dont have to My first try was using the mainconcept avc/mp4 codec (sony vegas 13) at 3840x2160x24p at 4.2mbits/sec (main profile) imagine my surprise when it looks VERY different on windows media play than on quicktime and both look different than VLC....which looks best I dont have a 4K monitor....but playing the video full size and seeing a quarter of it gives me an idea of what it looks like anyway thats the long and short of it at the moment...anyone give me some ideas where to start? TIA __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

07-23-2015, 05:14 PM	#2
JimmyStephans Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Littleton, Colorado. USA Posts: 558	Mike, My first thought was that it seems like a LOT of compression. Megabits? 1/8th of a Megabyte, so around 33MBPS? Anyway, I've been doing UHD as downloads for 4 months and have tried many things. Shooting with Sony and the XAVC S at 100MBPS setting. Edit in Vegas. I render out as you have, Main Concept MP4 but closer to 50MBPS. Results OK but wouldn't play natively in my WMP. I then tried sending out as XAVC S (which one forum claimed wouldn't recompress most footage). Then I took that file and sent through Handbrake, using X264 codec and MP4 results are decent. Plays fine in WMP. As a test I took that same test file (XAVC S from Vegas) to my 4 year old iMac that has Final Cut X and Compressor. File would not import directly into Compressor. I put the file in Final Cut, then sent to Compressor. The final MP4 output from Compressor was visually better as compared to what came out of Handbrake - but remember, this process include a render from Vegas that I would prefer to avoid. In this test I manually adjusted the Compressor profile to have roughly same numbers as the Handbrake test. File size on HD was near the same. As the last test I took the original footage, edited in Final Cut X and sent out to Compressor and that same Custom Profile. This final MP4 was the best of the bunch. Like you - I don't have a 4K monitor, but the iMac has 2560 by 1440 resolution and I used Quicktime to just watch each file over and over, and had a friend do the same. The best files in my testing... #1 The file created with full iMac workflow (Edit in Final Cut, render in Compressor). 2160p @ 50MBPS #2 The file edited on Windows 7 machine with Vegas, rendered out as XAVC S, then moved to iMac and final MP4 made in Compressor. Yes, I know that doesn't make any sense considering there is that extra render in #2, but its what we saw playing all versions of that test file on the iMac in Quicktime. The test was 6 minutes, general video. Sky, Trees, a rabbit, blowing tree branches, cars passing by, etc. __________________ http://TrueBabes.com/

07-23-2015, 05:59 PM	#12
CaptainHowdy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Happy in the dark. Posts: 93,028	Such informative threads make me feel deformed ... __________________ FLASH SALE INSANITY! deal with a 100% Trusted Seller Buy Traffic Spots on a High-Quality Network 1 Year or Lifetime — That’s Right, Until the Internet Explodes!