Is Traci Lords (before Traci I Love You) Child Porn?

[EliteWebmaster]

Is Traci Lords movies when she was did them while she was underage considered Child Pornography? Basically all the movies before "Traci I Love You"?

To me, they are Child Porn as they are videos depicting someone under the legal age, irrelevant whether she lied or not at the time.

The question is viewing the videos now, online. Is that grounds for child porn legal ramifications or not.

What are your thoughts?

[aka123]

I don't know this Traci Lords at all. Anyways:

First of all, not everything is "child porn", well, at least in here. Child porn depicts kids, not some somewhat underage model that lied about her age. Though the age limit for "unappropriate" photos is 18.

I don't know how authorities would react you watching that video. I don't think they care, but if you intentionally would want to make some case out if this, it surely would be interesting.

[EliteWebmaster]

A brief tidbit about her is here.

Traci Lords Is Pissed At Amazon For Selling (Her) Underage Porn

Long story short, this whore got into porn when she was 16, lying she was 18. She made tons of movies. Someone noticed it, reported it to the FBI. They came in and arrested a bunch of studio execs, studios were forced to remove her movies and magazines, and the bitch walked away while leaving our industry to clean up the mess.

Watching it is one thing that can be debated, but what about outlets that actively have her videos for others to view. Could they be prosecuted for "intent to distribute Child Porn"?

[aka123]

Originally Posted by EliteWebmaster

Watching it is one thing that can be debated, but what about outlets that actively have her videos for others to view. Could they be prosecuted for "intent to distribute Child Porn"?

I don't know should they, but they could be prosecuted. And I would use the term "minor" as in the law. She was 16, not that child anymore, though not yet adult either.

It is by the way "funny" how the age of consent and the age for "porn" are different. Although it is understandable, but there is still little discrepancy.

[SBJ]

Did you know she was in the 2009 I Hope The serve Beer In Hell?

fast forward to 2:42 and that's her in the red dress

[CurrentlySober]

Originally Posted by aka123

It is by the way "funny" how the age of consent and the age for "porn" are different. Although it is understandable, but there is still little discrepancy.

Thats to do with signing the release. You cannot make a legal contract until 18

[aka123]

Originally Posted by CurrentlySober

Thats to do with signing the release. You cannot make a legal contract until 18

Well, in here you can make legal contracts before 18, but not just every kinds of. You can get a job (contract), buy stuff (contract), etc. But not to get a 1 000 000 ? loan for the house, etc.

[CurrentlySober]

Originally Posted by aka123

Well, in here you can make legal contracts before 18, but not just every kinds of. You can get a job (contract), buy stuff (contract), etc. But not to get a 1 000 000 € loan for the house, etc.

Where is 'in here'?

I'm talking USA & UK Where you must be 18 to sign the necessary model release contract for porn...

[aka123]

Originally Posted by CurrentlySober

Where is 'in here'?

I'm talking USA & UK Where you must be 18 to sign the necessary model release contract for porn...

In Finland. In here the signing of the documents is not the problem, the "problem" is that it is forbidden to take, spread, etc. inappropriate pics, videos, etc. about underages. There is a law about it.

Though making porn contracts is probably the kind of contract that underage can't do anyways. By the way, we don't even have some standardized (by state) model release contracts per se. And I am not required to put some "all persons in the pics are over 18", etc. It is required that they are over 18, but I don't have to say it. I just have to obey the law and the assumption is that I do obey it, no need to prove otherwise unless there is some investigation against me. Innocent unless proven otherwise, the core principle of functional legal systems.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by SBJ

Did you know she was in the 2009 I Hope The serve Beer In Hell?

fast forward to 2:42 and that's her in the red dress

she has done a lot of mainstream acting incl. some dramatic roles like in Excision

[Barry-xlovecam]

That was the reason that the Reagan administration and the DOJ AJ Ed Meese's imminet harm reasoning for §2257

Why did the Traci Lords caliope instantly crash to the ground?

In the first place, her actual name was neither Kristie Elizabeth Nussman nor Christie Lee Nussman, but Nora Louise Kuzma.

In the second place, she was only fifteen years old when this story began. You would probably know her better as Traci Lords.

The fallout from the Traci Lords story came fast and furious, and included a round of criminal prosecutions of video distributors, the appeal of at least one of which went to the United States Supreme Court in United States v. Excitement Video, 513 U.S. 64 (1994), a case that established that a child pornography conviction requires proof that the defendant knew that the material depicted a minor.

Handbook on Section 2257 by J. D. Obenberger - XXXLAW Compliance 5th Ed.
By Attorney J. D. Obenberger

J.D. pops in here every now and then -- basically, he wrote the book on this.

I don't know ... If you knowingly posses child porn and view it for your pleasure could you be prosecuted? What do you think?

[Barry-xlovecam]

A minor cannot enter a contract legally in the United States and most other countries if not all.

[aka123]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

A minor cannot enter a contract legally in the United States and most other countries if not all.

I have seen American kids buying stuff in American movies and doing jobs. Have I been misled?

Here in Finland minors can do conventional contracts; like buy stuff in store, order services, apply and do jobs, etc. I suppose the same applies to all EU countries, at least for the sake of working inner markets. I wouldn't want to be sued for selling a phone's ringtone for some Italian kid.

[CaptainHowdy]

"Used, used by men..."

[michael.kickass]

I think you're right, those making their underage porn clips available to public for profit could be prosecuted for intent to distribute cp. That is if you follow law 'by the book'.

[SBJ]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

she has done a lot of mainstream acting incl. some dramatic roles like in Excision

yup I know, I was just shocked I didn't know that was her for several years of owning the funny movie. I knew she was in the Kevin smith flick Zack and Miri Make a Porno..

Really I was just changing the subject cause it is stupid to talk about is it legal to knowingly watch a underage girl in porn on GFY

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by aka123

I have seen American kids buying stuff in American movies and doing jobs. Have I been misled?.

A retail purchase is not a signed contract.

Is It Legal to Sign a Contract With a Minor? - Law and Daily Life

Void vs. Voidable Contract Lawyers | LegalMatch Law Library

What Are Some Examples of Void and Voidable Contracts?
Void contracts are unenforceable by law. Even if one party breaches the agreement, you cannot recover anything because essentially there was no valid contract. Some examples of void contracts include:

Contracts involving an illegal subject matter such as gambling, prostitution, or committing a crime.
Contracts entered into by someone not mentally competent (mental illness or minors).
Contracts that require performing something impossible or depends on an impossible event happening.
Contracts that are against public policy because they are too unfair.
Contracts that restrain certain activities (right to choose who to marry, restraining legal proceedings, the right to work for a living, etc.).
Voidable contracts are valid agreements, but one or both of the parties to the contract can void the contract at any time. As a result, you may not be able to enforce a voidable contract:

Contracts entered into when one party was a minor. (The law often treats minors as though they do not have the capacity to enter a contract. As a result, a minor can walk away from a contract at any time.)
Contracts where one party was forced or tricked into entering it.
Contracts entered when one party was incapacitated (drunk, insane, delusional).
- See more at: Void vs. Voidable Contract Lawyers | LegalMatch Law Library

18 USC §2257(i)(2) Whoever violates this section in an effort to conceal a substantive offense involving the causing, transporting, permitting or offering or seeking by notice or advertisement, a minor to engage in sexually explicit conduct for the purpose of producing a visual depiction of such conduct in violation of this title, or to conceal a substantive offense that involved trafficking in material involving the sexual exploitation of a minor, including receiving, transporting, advertising, or possessing material involving the sexual exploitation of a minor with intent to traffic, in violation of this title, shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years and fined in accordance with the provisions of this title, or both.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257A

This ain't Finland. This is the Uniform Commercial Code as adopted by every state in the union -- similar to an EU directive more or less. 18 USC §2257(i)(2) [as cited] is US Federal Criminal code. Don't try arguing this in any court in the USA -- you will get an extended vacation in an orange jumpsuit.

[Grapesoda]

Originally Posted by EliteWebmaster

A brief tidbit about her is here.

Traci Lords Is Pissed At Amazon For Selling (Her) Underage Porn

Long story short, this whore got into porn when she was 16, lying she was 18. She made tons of movies. Someone noticed it, reported it to the FBI. They came in and arrested a bunch of studio execs, studios were forced to remove her movies and magazines, and the bitch walked away while leaving our industry to clean up the mess.

Watching it is one thing that can be debated, but what about outlets that actively have her videos for others to view. Could they be prosecuted for "intent to distribute Child Porn"?

you left out the part where she is the one that turned herself in anonymously, had all her movies yanked, got major major publicity and then released a film with her own production company of herself doing porn the day she turned 18!

[aka123]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

A retail purchase is not a signed contract.


This ain't Finland. This is the Uniform Commercial Code as adopted by every state in the union -- similar to an EU directive more or less. 18 USC §2257(i)(2) [as cited] is US Federal Criminal code. Don't try arguing this in any court in the USA -- you will get an extended vacation in an orange jumpsuit.

Well, in here it doesn't matter to start with whether the contract is signed or not. Besides proving that such contract exists. Buying from a shop is as much contract as signing for a job position for example, or signing to order some stuff from Amazon for example (by pressing the "confirm order"-button).

I am not trying to test anything in USA as the legal system sucks anyways.


But, you can do contracts with minors, even in US:

"For most contracts, the general rule is that while it's not illegal to enter into a contract with a minor, the contract is voidable at the discretion of the minor. Voidable contracts are usually valid contracts and are binding unless the child cancels it."

Is It Legal to Sign a Contract With a Minor? - Law and Daily Life

[bronco67]

Let's get one thing straight...at 16, Traci Lords was a woman.

[Barry-xlovecam]

I don't enter into any contract I cannot enforce in court.
Contracting with a minor for pornography is a felony crime.
Possessing child pornography is a felony crime.
Knowingly viewing child pornography is a felony crime.

You just argue idiocy.

I can drive a car that I steal -- so fucking what?

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by bronco67

Let's get one thing straight...at 16, Traci Lords was a woman.

Old enough to bleed old enough to breed does not apply in this case

[aka123]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

I don't enter into any contract I cannot enforce in court.
Contracting with a minor for pornography is a felony crime.
Possessing child pornography is a felony crime.
Knowingly viewing child pornography is a felony crime.

You just argue idiocy.

I didn't say anything about these three, other than that the last one is illegal. Fucking read what I write. And about the contract; the common contract with minor is valid until he cancels it, and it is valid to the day of cancellation (and enforceable in court up to that date). If he for example has mown your lawn for money, there is no undoing it anyways.

"Contracting with a minor for pornography is a felony crime.
Possessing child pornography is a felony crime.
Knowingly viewing child pornography is a felony crime."

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by aka123

I don't know should they, but they could be prosecuted. And I would use the term "minor" as in the law. She was 16, not that child anymore, though not yet adult either.

It is by the way "funny" how the age of consent and the age for "porn" are different. Although it is understandable, but there is still little discrepancy.

That's only because anyone under 18 is not legally able to enter into a contract.

The age of consent is lower that the age of a legal contract. Since 18 is a LEGAL adult that is the age that they can shoot porn.

Always made me wonder...If a girl was 17 years old and her parents signed for her to shoot...would that be legal?

[AntonMG]

Originally Posted by aka123

It is by the way "funny" how the age of consent and the age for "porn" are different. Although it is understandable, but there is still little discrepancy.

If a girl (or boy) of 16 takes a bad decision when it comes to have sex, the worst that can happen is bad self esteem and maybe an STD (or two).
Putting it on tape for all to see for decades is another story.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Always made me wonder...If a girl was 17 years old and her parents signed for her to shoot...would that be legal?

you are very close to some of the industry darkest moments...

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

you are very close to some of the industry darkest moments...

Has that already been done before?

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by EliteWebmaster

The question is viewing the videos now, online. Is that grounds for child porn legal ramifications or not.

What are your thoughts?

yeah. everything about getting busted revolves around prosecutorial discretion. State & federal attorneys look at evidence in total to decide whether to file charges.

if a guy is busted having viewed some traci lords in passing, & his data does not show he is saving it or bookmarking it, & he has no other child porn on his system, they prolly dont go after a passing glance. if he is bookmarking traci & has a habit of viewing her porn, they probably threaten to charge & offer a deal on a lesser charge.

but it will always be a bullet in the chamber of jonny law. just stay away, as ripe as those big swollen banana boobs were.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Always made me wonder...If a girl was 17 years old and her parents signed for her to shoot...would that be legal?

No, it is a contract for an illegal purpose.

[dyna mo]

i'm recollecting that killer penthouse spread she did. .............

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i'm recollecting that killer penthouse spread she did. .............

I remember that too. The Vanessa Williams issue.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Has that already been done before?

one day when we sit down with a beer...

besides that - Page 3 girl in UK was minimum 16 years, prostitution in Switzerland was minimum 16 years not until too long ago, several EU countries had lower minimum ages than 18 up until the late 1990ties i think

the "funny" thing is: you shoot a girl at 17 and 364 days and everyone screams CP! and one day later you do a 20 black guy gangbang with her and everyone on GFY gives you high fives

[CurrentlySober]

Originally Posted by Grapesoda

you left out the part where she is the one that turned herself in anonymously, had all her movies yanked, got major major publicity and then released a film with her own production company of herself doing porn the day she turned 18!

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by bronco67

I remember that too. The Vanessa Williams issue.

oh yeah, i forgot she was in that issue!

[Rochard]

The Traci Lords story is amazing... It seems to me like the only one who broke the law was really Traci Lords. She was the one who went to the DMV and got government issued ID saying she was legal age. She physically took someone's birth certificate and lied about her age to the DMV, and the government gave her an ID that made her older than she really was.

She destroyed a lot of lives, and I believe people went to prison over this.

[rhon23]

Originally Posted by bronco67

I remember that too. The Vanessa Williams issue.

October 1984. We have the issues here but only because we have a copy of every issue. I have seen it but they are under lock and key now.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

one day when we sit down with a beer...

besides that - Page 3 girl in UK was minimum 16 years, prostitution in Switzerland was minimum 16 years not until too long ago, several EU countries had lower minimum ages than 18 up until the late 1990ties i think

the "funny" thing is: you shoot a girl at 17 and 364 days and everyone screams CP! and one day later you do a 20 black guy gangbang with her and everyone on GFY gives you high fives

Yeah, it's pretty dumb.

Especially since everyone is different. I know when I was in High School, my best friend had a full chest of hair and a full beard at age 14.
Other guys I knew were still just barely reaching puberty at 17. (And I still haven't reached maturity lol)

But I suppose the law has to have some kind of ability to differentiate adults from minors.
It's just funny to hear that a 15 year old Traci Lords was a "child". I did not know her, and never met her...but I would guess that a 15 year old Traci Lords was a full grown woman and had more savvy and street smarts than some women twice her age at the time.

But legally? She was under the age to shoot porn.

Is it "child porn"? In her case I don't think it was...but in order to keep all 15 year olds safe and not being taken advantage of...yes, we need to have that 18 years old "line in the sand" to shoot adult pics or vids.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Yeah, it's pretty dumb.

Especially since everyone is different. I know when I was in High School, my best friend had a full chest of hair and a full beard at age 14.
Other guys I knew were still just barely reaching puberty at 17. (And I still haven't reached maturity lol)

But I suppose the law has to have some kind of ability to differentiate adults from minors.
It's just funny to hear that a 15 year old Traci Lords was a "child". I did not know her, and never met her...but I would guess that a 15 year old Traci Lords was a full grown woman and had more savvy and street smarts than some women twice her age at the time.

But legally? She was under the age to shoot porn.

Is it "child porn"? In her case I don't think it was...but in order to keep all 15 year olds safe and not being taken advantage of...yes, we need to have that 18 years old "line in the sand" to shoot adult pics or vids.

i absolutely agree, 18 is the minimum age, i'd even be ok with 21 if the industry would decide on that

but "cp" is prepubescent children, 17 is under the legal age for porn but if i call a fully developed 17 year old pretty, i am not a pervert

that i would never shoot her - because it is not legal - is something different

but a pedophile is not interested in 17 year olds

[bronco67]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

oh yeah, i forgot she was in that issue!

As soon as I saw that Traci Lords spread, I knew what I was doing when I got home.

[DVTimes]

I thought it was Traci Lords who because she was under aged changed USA laws.

I think it was her who made it so you needed ID and so on in the USA.

[DVTimes]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i absolutely agree, 18 is the minimum age, i'd even be ok with 21 if the industry would decide on that

but "cp" is prepubescent children, 17 is under the legal age for porn but if i call a fully developed 17 year old pretty, i am not a pervert

that i would never shoot her - because it is not legal - is something different

but a pedophile is not interested in 17 year olds

UK Law

Previously, printing images of women aged 16 or 17 on Page 3 was deemed acceptable. In 1983, Sam Fox was the youngest at only 16 when she first featured topless in the paper with the headline 'Sam, 16, Quits A-Levels for Ooh-Levels'.

However, the passing of the Sexual Offences Act in 2003 resulted in the minimum age for women posing on Page 3 being raised to 18. This now means that all former images featuring women under 18 are now potentially illegal.

[DVTimes]

UK law

On the 1 May 2004, the definition of a child was altered from a person under the age of 16 years to one under the age of 18 years by section 45(1) of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The age of a child is ultimately for the jury to determine.

Indecent photographs of children: Legal Guidance: The Crown Prosecution Service

[Barry-xlovecam]

There is a big difference between the Child Pornography laws and the Sexual Consent and Statutory Rape laws. Don't mix the matter up.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i absolutely agree, 18 is the minimum age, i'd even be ok with 21 if the industry would decide on that

but "cp" is prepubescent children, 17 is under the legal age for porn but if i call a fully developed 17 year old pretty, i am not a pervert

that i would never shoot her - because it is not legal - is something different

but a pedophile is not interested in 17 year olds

I have to agree. I am more comfortable with a person making an informed decision about porn IMHO. I could live with 21 as a rule

That said, we have a lot of performers that are 18 to 20 years old -- that is totally legal -- any ethics aside ... I just hope that they have considered the larger picture.

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by SBJ

Did you know she was in the 2009 I Hope The serve Beer In Hell?

fast forward to 2:42 and that's her in the red dress

I love that book, but that movie was such a disappointment. Not good.

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's only because anyone under 18 is not legally able to enter into a contract.

The age of consent is lower that the age of a legal contract. Since 18 is a LEGAL adult that is the age that they can shoot porn.

Always made me wonder...If a girl was 17 years old and her parents signed for her to shoot...would that be legal?

Playboy did it at least once early on and apparently there was quite the uproar.

[NatalieK]

If she was a minor, then she was a minor. The pornography now is of her as a minor, I see this as some what illegal to watch or at least anyone watching the content, if having knowledge, then would be watching a minor in porn

[2MuchMark]

Let's dance!

[Harmon]

That cocksucker MiamiBoyz should chime in. I am sure his 2257 records of 3rd world savages pissing in each others mouths is all in check. He should be an expert on the subject.

[L-Pink]

Girls are like blackjack, I try to go for 21 but I always hit on 14.