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I always try to consider original sources when forming opinions

There's been a lot of heat recently regarding Islam. A lot of people making all sorts of claims about Islam and G-d, etc etc

So to get to the HEART OF THE MATTER, i recently downloaded the Quran to see for myself

This way, I can form my own opinion, instead of relying on what the MEDIA or OTHERS tell me.

I haven't FINISHED reading it (and the fact that it was originally memorized in whole and passed on orally blows my mind in of itself) but so far, here's what I absorbed:

1) There's a heavy emphasis on Allah being GRACIOUS... This seems familiar, since Christianity is rooted in a relationship between man and God based on God's grace instead of man's inherent goodness.

2) The Quran talks very positively about the Jewish Torah and the Christian gospel (the second chapter of the Quran says 'They are the true guidance from their Lord and they are the successful.'

3) The Quran focuses on the same God of Abraham that Judaism and Christianity are based on.

4) The Quran portrays certain actions of God similar to elements from the book of Exodus in the Torah. In particular, he closes eyes (quran) as he hardens hearts (torah)

5) This book shares the Jewish and Christian bible's abhorrence of hypocrisy. Some of the writing style also reminds me of Jewish 'wisdom literature' found in the Old Testament and the Book of James in the NT.

Anyway, I just wanted to share. I'm just keeping an open mind when I read it but I always look for patterns.

Final point: just like with any discussion about religion and faith, it is very easy for religion to become a point of division. It is TRUE that religion causes wars. Religion kills.
We can all agree on that.

But there's a difference between religionism and faith/belief. The former leads to war, division, pain, suffering. The latter leads elsewhere.

Interestingly, Jesus himself HARSHLY CRITICIZED religionism and fought against religion. Seriously. His rebuke of the Pharisees applies to the rebuke of fat cat 'Christian' preachers and church hierarchy throughout history. Too often, spirituality has been PERVERTED to serve the purpose of SELF when the root of spirituality is SELFLESSNESS which reaches its highest form in SELFLESS LOVE.

Here's a powerful explanation of the difference between "RELIGION" and Faith... by two Israelis. Blows my mind each time I watch it.



Anyway, just sharing stuff I've learned. One can never learn enough. Read the original sources before forming an opinion. Next stop: The Bhagavad Gita

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dyna mo

have you got to Quran 2:191 yet?

$5 submissions

Ah yes, but you have to read 2:190 first

"And fight in the Way of Allah, THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU (caps = emphasis) BUT TRANSGRESS NOT THE LIMITS. Truly, Allah LIKES NOT THE TRANSGRESSORS"

Also, the proscription against fighting in the sanctuary at Mecca highlights that this was aimed at the original Arabs that fought against Mohammed and his party.

Basically, it advises those who claim to believe in Allah: don't be the transgressor.

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dyna mo

what are your conclusions on Quran 5:33?

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Context is powerful. See 5:27 (regarding Adam's first 2 children: Cain and Abel and God's attitude regarding the spilling of innocent blood) onwards to 5:32. Pay special attention to 5:32's statement on the significance of SAVING a life. This sets up the proper context for 5:33. Since saving a life has tremendous importance as spilling innocent blood has tremendous importance ('as if he killed all mankind') the hyperbole is set up and 5:33 must be read in light of what came before it.

Reading 5:33 alone is like reading Mark 9:43 alone or Matthew 10:34 or any of Exodus' statements regarding the Amalekites out of context (also 1 Samuel 15:3)

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dyna mo

SA putting it in context.

?The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified,.. "

Mother of Saudi man sentenced to crucifixion begs Obama to intervene | World news | The Guardian

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But isn't there always punishment in any spiritual code? The Torah and the New Testament has it.

In fact, the worst punishment I can think of is in the Bhagavad Gita and the Hindu Vedic scriptures... if you HURT OTHERS NOW (sin), you pay for it through CONTINUOUS REBIRTH. Considering how pointless life can be NOW, imagine having to repeat it INFINITE TIMES?

The concept of consequence and punishment (whether by stoning, crucifixion, hanging, burning, etc) has always been there....

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dyna mo

i think the big difference is the literal translation. and that's also the big problem.

what are your thoughts on Quran 9:5,73,123? all of which are being taken literally by isis.

pornmasta

I like poo

If someone is killing my friends, i'm against it whatever the excuse.

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Well, I view ISIS the same way I view fanatical Christians and other people of other 'faiths' (notice the quotation marks). They view their RELIGION (emphasis) as a means of DIVISIOn. It's US versus THEM. It is easy to turn from FAITH to idolatry (religion) when you Leave out all context and focus on what you want to focus on. Idolatry (one of the most hated concepts in Judeo-Christian spirituality) is all about trying to reduce G-d into something manmade. Something that serves man instead of the other way around. The ISIS spin on Islam serves division, self-righteousness and nowhere near reflects the universality of G-d (MERCY, BENEFICENCE, GRACIOUS, etc etc) as described in the Quran-ISIS' supposed source of instruction and inspiration.

Obviously, to them, its all about THEIR interpretation and everyone else is an infidel (including fellow believing Muslims, mind you). In their eyes, the LATTER needs to die.

This is not a fair and accurate reflection of the Quran. In fact, you can read the quran with very little effort at SPINNING and have all its harsh judgments AIMED at those who kill UNJUSTLY in the name of Allah

Sadly, Isis and all others who twist religion, WILLFULLY BLIND themselves to the GIFT at the core of their spiritual traditions which is SELFLESSNESS and LOVE. Interestingly enough, all the religious books I've read... from the Torah to the New Testament to The Quran to (starting in small chunks right now) The Bhagavad Gita and (in the past) Buddhist teachings... all talk about SELFLESSNESS.
How LIMITED man is and how LIMITLESS GOD is ...

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mineistaken

Look, Christians tried to make the world Christian in the name of God centuries ago. Muslims just reached that stage now.
As you say both books preach similar things just Christians grew out of the dark ages while muslims did not.

mineistaken

So do those fanatical Christians you know preach "killing infidels" as well?
I laugh when somebody compares these 2 ...

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Historically, bro. Historically. Read up on your history, my man.

It all boils down to twisting religion to further an all-too-human agenda.

Let's put it this way... EVEN IF RELIGION IS TAKEN OUT OF THE PICTURE... People will still find SOME OTHER dividing point. All the burnings, crucifixions, hangings, shootings, bombings, etc will be JUSTIFIED based on that other dividing point.

The problem isn't something EXTERNALIZED like 'religion'

The problem is there's something broken INSIDE US.

That's the issue spirituality tries to address.

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dyna mo

isn't this just it though? devout followers of the text are the ones twisting the Quran out of context to begin with, they aren't twisting it up because white guys in the USA are taken passages out of context.

mineistaken

Your post sounded like you were speaking about current times.
Historically - I agree and already made a post above the one you just quoted, so...
They are not called savages for no reason, you may be called that when you do something that other people grew out of hundreds of years ago..

oppoten

Jews can argue that Christians did that, by splitting God into 3. Which is why Jews can interpret criticism of Jewish actions as criticism of Jews. Their god remained one, so they never separated action from identity.

None of us can be sure of the reasons for Isis' existence, so I don't think it's worth intellectualizing

Sarn

Islam is now in the Middle Ages.
ISIS is the Inquisition.


figures that we use is Arabic 123456
I think the problem is not the religion but more in the society

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My point is that the QURAN as a complete text in of itself simply addresses the same issues other spiritual books address. Just like those other books, it is used and abused to further an agenda that is ANTITHETICAL to its core.

Granted, passages of the Quran are easier to twist (like parts of the Old Testament) because of its specific historical context. When the angel Gabriel dictated the Quran to Mohammed and Mohammed went to Mecca telling people about it, he wasn't exactly greeted with open arms.

Similarly, the exodus from Egypt was resisted by Amalekites, Ammonites, Jebusites, etc etc.

So there's a MARTIAL element borne from the historical context.

But if you were to read it in totality, what is it all about?

It's about God and Man trying to have a relationship.... to the fullest extent our LIMITED MINDS and BEINGS would allow us.

To frame the the issue as US versus THEM is to simply copy and paste the framing of ISIS militants. That's how they see the world.

The Law (and Human Decency) must prevail and those fanatics need to be dealt with. Firmly. Effectively.

With that said, what does all that have to do with the SPIRITUAL CORE of Islam as embodied by the Quran?

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ilnjscb

The references to Jesus in the Q'ran are hilarious. There he is, just as Jesus as he can be, saying "well, it was me, but you guys got it wrong, I'm a great prophet but not THE prophet"

DVTimes

Muslims basically believe the same as Christians.

The main difference is Jesus is a prophet.

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I get your point but there was a lot of scientific research and inquiry in Muslim Spain (helped tremendously by Jewish scholars). The map's a bit off but I get your point.

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Phoenix

i read a cool book about aliens coming to earth recently.
was nice to see the authors viewpoint on alien and human relations.

nice to see other people like reading fantasy and science fiction

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?God is a comedian playing to an audience that is too afraid to laugh.?

― Voltaire

epitome

When did this happen? I must have missed it.

Anyway, both religions are pretty similar and both have extremists.

The difference is, when the brown people have a few extremists, a lot of people try to lump them all together (e.g., Trump and his dumb "Muslim registry" idea). They don't do the same to Christians.

BlackCrayon

There are so many verses that talk about killing and such in the quran. i was going to post some of them but there are too many. it said i entered too much text.

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Sarn

Well, yes if you go into the details.
PS:silly to discuss the qoran, even when Muslims are war each other due to the fact there interpreted differently it.

Sarn

not only

$5 submissions

I agree. ANYTHING, in the hands of people, can be twisted to further an all-too-familiar agenda: Selfishness

That's how BROKEN humanity is



If you haven't read Dr. Frankl's book, please check it out.

I read it in junior high and it has continued to blow my mind ever since.

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TampaToker

Deuteronomy 13:6-10English Standard Version (ESV)

6 ?If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace[a] or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ?Let us go and serve other gods,? which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

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_Richard_

i have been meaning to read all the holy books, but can never motivate myself to get started

JuicyBunny

Why? Its an apt comparison. Its what the Crusades attempted to accomplish and it goes on through today. Look at any Christian extremists. Same if not worse.

Fanatics, radicals and extremists come from all religions and walks of life. All are a hazard to our health. Not just the ones you do not like.

JuicyBunny

$$$$. As good a reason as anyone needs these days.

Struggle4Bucks

In other words... if you lack the instict for life; if you drop to your knees to reach hights...
The world needs nobility who has the courage to redeem them from this terrible life and deliver them at their savior...

Religion is a revolt of all creatures that creep on the ground against everything that is lofty.

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Brad Mitchell

GFY thread of the year. Good posts, most of you.

Brad

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pimpmaster9000

LOL this has nothing at all to do with religion

dumb asses discussing the quran and bible and batman comics LOL

its about the rich exploiting the poor and the inevitable consequences and the reluctance to admit...

you made them colonies, exploited them, then when you "set them free" you invaded and bombed again and gave their land to israelis over another batman vs. superman holy book ect ect


the quran has shit to do with it

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PornDiscounts-V

All religion can be used for love or war. As can science. I prefer the latter. Edible panties, lotions, massagers, enjoy life while you can.

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NewNick

You think ?

All these ancient texts have so much shite in them you can pick and choose whatever you want.

You dont have to be a genius to work that out.

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Matt-ADX

^^

Agreed.

Relic

Grab a load of the Talmud too, it's a tight race for most fucked.

Rochard

The problem is people read between the lines and walk away with what they want to believe.

Take the bible for example. Somewhere it says something like "Two men shall not live together" and thus homosexuality is a sin. Yet the bible also says we should stone people who wear clothes of different treads which is completely ignored, and that we should not touch the skin of a pig on Sunday yet here in the US we all watch football games.

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dyna mo

more nonsense from rochard.




Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code and list prohibited forms of intercourse, contain the following verses:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Brent 3dSexCash

The difference is that the religious nuts back in the day had swords and shields. The religious nuts now have and will continue to get more advanced weapons.

Christian fanatics these days arent going around cutting people's heads off and throwing acid in the face of school girls for wanting to learn how to read.

Christianity was the cancer 1000 years ago and now the cancer of the day is Islam.

I wish everyone would just grow the fuck up so we can all move away from religion for good.

Jel

great POSTS $5SUBMISSIONS and I agree WITH 95% of the ones I read but I had to GIVE up reading the entire THREAD due to fuck knows what that style OF writing is. Ya FEEL?

Phoenix

Try following the Harry Potter books and living your life like a wizard.

i like that fantasy book better

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ITraffic

every religion has their violent deluded maniacs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shapira

and every religion has their mystical and esoteric side which is the only part of religion and spirituality that is worth anything.

EonBlue

Don't forget to read the hadith also.

Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (??? ???? ???? ? ???)


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JIBCONTENT

Religion TRULY IS Planet Earths Cancer

Look's terminal too.

To me it's just astonishing that otherwise normal seeming rational people, functioning in society among the sane, can adhere to the hoax-cult-myth-horseshit that is Religion.

It's just exactly like invasion of the body snatchers. Fucking pod people creepy as fuck with their dead eyes and that all-present "I know the WAY and I know that DEEP DOWN you would like me to IMPART THE TRUTH unto you" psycho GAZE.

Fucking Jesus Freak Crazies.

If you are religious and are reading this..listen to that little part of your heart...deep down there is a voice..trapped, buried...howling for escape, begging to be set free...listen VERY closely and you can hear the inner sane person - the tiny voice barely audible but it's screeeeming:
IT'S ALL BULLSHIT!!!












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dyna mo

i'm thinking the point of the thread is the OP read the text for himself and concluded there is overall goodness in it.

can't slight him for that at all, can't really criticize a personal take on the original source, as long as it's based on some amount of reality.


B-

EonBlue

Fixed it for you.



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