Vendot

A Universal Income (free money) program proposal was recently and unanimously defeated in a Swiss Referendum. However, over in the US a similar such proposal is live and up for discussion:

Here's why the government should give you $1,000 a month - Yahoo Finance

This is "Helicopter Money" and its free money (you don't have to work for it) and its for everyone. Anyone see a downside?

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brassmonkey

payments will be made through epass - Obama

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mineistaken

Dream of left wing parasites.

arock10

People could buy a lot of porn memberships with an extra $1k a month

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ruff

Exactly what is a left wing parasite?

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Helix

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mineistaken

The one that encourages lazyness and not working for a living by giving free money.

crockett

As apposed to the right wing parasite, the one who encourages giving truck loads of money away to their corporate benefactors who shovel it off shore as fast as they can so it never see's the light of day again.. Sometimes this requires fake wars on things like drugs, terror and random coups of nations we don't like or fake evil bad guys..

Humm I wonder who has been worse in the long run for this country? A bunch of free loader hippies who just wanted to run around naked doing drugs and saving trees... or a bunch of assholes who piss off the world and spend us into oblivion on the credit card.

Barry-xlovecam

• So, my taxes go up $2000 per month and I get $1000 of UBI "free" money every month.
• So, there is 13% inflation and all my assets are worth less and I get $1000 of UBI "free" money every month, inflation adjusted, that is worth less every month.

If you gut all the social safety net (*welfare GA, Food Stamps, Medicaid) crop subsidies, every other stipend to business -- which I am assuming is the right wing (true Libertarianism ) reasoning, it might cost $1 trillion a year?

It would make more sense for India to have a UBI of $22 a month -- an expanding economy, with few social benefits, could absorb the costs.

Western economies are near stagnant growth -- pumping in free money and creating more deficits and debt will not welcome new prosperity.

Switzerland is an anomaly, an exception to the rule, the Swiss have few citizens below the poverty line, depend on most of their income from the world economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Switzerland --out of date ). Switzerland may have the net resources to carry out their UBI scheme -- then maybe not after a short trial -- that remains to be seen.

The Porn Nerd

Try it in Poland.
You need it more than we do. LOL

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romeo22

Thats crazy.First they take your money and tale you "we give you extra $1000

Vendot

Hmmm. That's really well said.

I bet it gets used, at least in the USA, since QE was a failure and NIRP (Negative Interest Rate Policy) has now been shown also to be failing wherever they've been implemented it around the world. The question is what form will the "helicopter money" take?

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The Porn Nerd

$5's and $10's

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Barry-xlovecam

Take a Welfare family of 4; If you gave then $4,000 per month what would they spend it on?

That is not even enough to pay for 3 kids to go to vocational schools or pay college tuition. They would buy more lottery tickets, crack and Red Bull. Drug dealers and the corner liquor store would get a windfall. Their status would not change is my point. I would rather society pay for the qualified to be schooled to break the poverty cycle.

Working class people might be able to buy some consumer products -- that might build the manufacturing output some -- with China and other importers seeing most of the wealth transfer.

I might by a new BMW LMAO -- that is really going to help the US economy -- that is if I can get around the tax increases and increase your burden

Hannes

if only this would be true..

Vendot

Welcome to GFY!

You must one of the losers!

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spads

The idea of universal basic income is that by simply givknf everyone $1k you are able to end welfare programs, which are inefficient and have costly bureaucracy to go along with them. The idea isn't to give people $1k and then have unemployment benefits. If you're conservative you should be all for this as it shrinks the number of government programs and workers.

Paul Markham

It will never happen. So why post it?

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Vendot

This just shows how ignorant you are Paul - you're obviously also one who thinks the financial crisis ended in 2009. Of course it will happen, in one way or another. The very fact that these are coming up for discussion is again proof of direction and if Janet Yellen, Bill Gross and Ray Dalio see it coming, I'm more inclined to believe them.

Now it could take the form of increased benefits or it could take the form of tax rebates or it could take the form of some under the carpet scheme which is less visible, but it WILL be done and I'm certain that the more knowledgeable on here will concur.

As I said before since QE and NIRP are proven failures. It is now the only option left of the table now for central bankers to boost growth and get inflation off the floor. If its not another round of QE then we're looking at helicopter money:

https://www.theguardian.com/business...than-you-think

Janet Yellen: Helicopter money is an option in extreme situations - Jun. 16, 2016

Janus's Bill Gross: 'Helicopter money' is coming in a year or so | Reuters

‘Helicopter money’ on the horizon, says Ray Dalio - FT.com

Naturally, I dont blame you for saying that. Its so out of the ordinary and unheard of, but let's see if you can answer this question for me:

Question: Why can't the government just give us money every month instead of us working for money?

Answer: There's no reason. It just hasn't happened before because income is supposed to reward productivity.

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Vendot

A mosquito with a missing right wing?

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woj

What's wrong with working for money? You produce goods/services by working, you make money, use that money to buy what others have produced in the same way... seems like a healthy arrangement?

Are you suggesting that a parasitic arrangement, where some group of people only consume goods/services that others have produced, without contributing anything themselves is better?

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Barry-xlovecam

1. The US is nearing full employment (for the employable)
2. The US is due for a recession beginning in 2017 to 2019 lasting 2 or 3 year maybe
3. The US FED has its back against the wall as far as traditional stimulus methods.

This scenario is not at all like the Swiss version of UBI

This more is like FEMA Prison Planet hysterical paranoia.

Vendot

Nope. You're right it's a parasite arrangement and it was thought up by a bunch of parasites (neo keynesian central bankers, central planners) which will end very badly and ultimately lead to some kind of hyper inflation.

However, I was just making the point that because people can't conceive of such a thing or haven't seen it before doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. It looks very likely according to the analysis I've read and the only question is what shape or form it takes.

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Lykos

That's true haha

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Barry-xlovecam

The trickle up potential is very limited. If your income increased $30K (family of 3) many taxpayers would be bumped into the next tax bracket especially the low wage earners. Your net gain would be a lot less. Less 25% if you go from 15% up a bracket. So, this is really a tax ponzi scheme. The money you get is first taken in a tax and then taxed again and again.

It is a scam.

k0nr4d

We already have something like that in Poland. You get 500PLN/month for first child wired to you if your family income is less then 800PLN per person in your household or something like that, and 500PLN/mo for every second (and 3rd, 4th, etc) child regardless of income.

For reference, 500PLN buys you about 3 bottles of decent scotch here.

It's a stupid idea - If Poland didn't have huge capital flight issues (in that all the big businesses here are owned by foreign entities and most profits are shipped out of Poland) then this would work great since if you think about it if it wasn't for that every last penny of that money would go back to the gov't eventually in income taxes, vat and duty.

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The Porn Nerd

If a family on welfare suddenly got 4k a month they would spend it on crazy things like better housing, better food, clothes and maybe cable tv. LOL Four thousand a month is a fuck lot more than they get now and would make them feel like rich kings.

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SekobA

its good if the money is taken from the rich ppl and gave to the poor

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Barry-xlovecam

When taxes go up either prices increase or production of products is offshored to the prices of chump change labor.

The rich always end up getting their money back Robin Hood. They didn't get rich by being stupid.

Free money for the poor, fewer jobs for the middle class, higher prices for both classes, chump change for a very appreciative 3rd world, more money for the rich

k0nr4d

The problem is they would stop working, because if they are making $2k now and get $4k for free, they'd rather not work then have $6k total.

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rayadp05

I mean sure, that would be nice ....but it will never happen, if you ask me.

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C H R I S

Not going happen... this is just an article not even a proposal....

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BH4L

The Porn Nerd

Well let's not give them anything, then they will work their asses off, right? Oh wait, Republicans say this is the solution....

And what about the old, sick and handicapped? Fuck them too, I got it.

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escorpio

Vendot

Here we go again with the "Too Good To Be True" thinking and from people who don't even know who Janet Yellen, Bill Gross or Ray Dalio are!

Its not a GOOD thing if or when it happens. It's a terrible thing but it may be the only last resort.

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just a punk

Commies?

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Paul Markham

I never said it wasn't talked about, that it's a good or bad idea. I said it will never happen. How about a bet of $10 if it goes through by the end of this decade. The money is small, it's winning that counts.

Very long term there is a problem. Machines will replace so many jobs there won't be enough to go around for low or medium skilled people that pay a decent wage. At the same time, populations are rising at an alarming rate. This is going to hit the top 5%. Because the bottom 95% won't be able to spend enough money to keep them rich.

What you're seeing now is only 10% of the journey. Those over 40 will tell you the average standard of living and debt was better in the past. Today the top 5% rely on people getting into debt to buy their goods. That's a redistribution of wealth. What happens when more of the people in debt don't have a wage high enough to fund the interest payments? Study the facts. https://www.google.cz/search?q=us+pe... UUI4OMqrbM%3A

Lose that ability to borrow and spend and the shit hits the fan.

Personally I think it would be a good idea to give people a set minimum income and get them working on Government projects, roads, bridges, schools, hospitals, police, social services, etc. So people have money to spend on things like porn. It has to be paid for by more taxes. The idea of $1,000 for doing nothing is stupid.

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Paul Markham

What if the jobs paying decent wages disappear?

Full employment isn't millions of people flippin burgers, which will go automated. Checkout tills are going automated, cleaners now sit on a machine and do the jobs of 5. And so on. Examine the clothes you wear, America once had a thriving clothing manufacturing industry.



Your theory is 20 years out of date.

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Paul Markham

Agree with jobs going offshore, like money goes offshore to dodge taxes. That's the immorality of the present system. Few in the Third World wear Nikes, they just make them there. Few in the US make Nikes, they just buy them.

While it was just footwear it was fine. Now it's Boeing Aircraft and putting men into space. Eventually who will have enough to buy all those private chats you sell?

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Vendot

No offence but you're way, way out of your league here. Secondly, it's very difficult to define success or failure because as I have already said, no-one can predict the shape or form that helicopter money will take so its not a bettable outcome.

How about we handle this a different way and you tell us why you think it will never happen? I think that will show a great deal more about what you know and what you don't know.

Sure but so are negative interest rates. Everyone said it would never happen only because it has never happened before in history and it did and quite broadly with over 10 trillion bonds with a negative yield. Negative rates in Japan, Sweden, Switzerland etc, etc.

The world economy is a complete mess, it has to grow its way out of a serious debt hole and it's stalling so something will have to be done whether its more QE or as I said before, helicopter money:

Helicopter Money: Ben Bernanke's Plan to Hand Out Free Cash - Fortune

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Sunny Day

This guy has this trailer on I-49 and bitches about welfare. The USDA has paid him over $1,000,000 not to farm. He's a true welfare queen.

Barry-xlovecam

We sell to the top 5% mainly -- who do you think can afford $150/hr for a cam slut? Working class people buy less than 10% from us. So, from that aspect I don't care.

The costs of benefits for employing a US American worker are far too expensive. The cost of the benefits are the problem -- not the benefits themselves.

I grew up on a veteran's benefit and social security stipend survivor's benefit because my father died when I was 11. My mother worked to support us the best she could doing office administrative work. So, it is not like I am not sympathetic to the burden on the middle class. However, I see the world for what it is and not some nostalgic memory of some past that was really not as good as we pretend it to be.

Give a a worker in southern Asia $700 a month and he will work his ass off. Employ a US worker for $500 a week and add $200 in healthcare, optical and dental -- 401K retirement investment subsidy -- statutory unemployment insurance, and employer's share of FICA taxes (social security retirement and Medicare) -- you have a disgruntled worker that thinks he is underpaid, wants to join a union and strike for higher wages

Barry-xlovecam

Negative interest rates are not for consumer or business bank accounts or being applied toward bond yield face interest or coupon rates. Negative interest rates are only applied to the mandated bank reserve deposits and any additional funds that are placed with the central bank. Since these negative rates are so misunderstood -- here is what they mean: The central bank is telling the chartered commercial banks -- we don't want or need your money -- lend your money out to the commercial market and stimulate the economy.

In reality, the commercial banking system has become very risk advoidant and dysfunctional. The Central Banks have worsened the risk avoidance problems of the commercial banks by their actions.

The investment banks and the hedge funds are the problem -- they need to be regulated or even forced to join the central banking system The investment banks and the hedge funds are gaming the financial markets causing the problems and creating paper profits by being allowed to be the real overlords of the economy

We are more likely to have a neo-socialist movement, or even revolution, in this country (as well as other capitalist system countries) than have helicopter money fall from the sky. If you don't believe me -- just look at the #occupy movements and now the successes of the Democrat-Socialist movement of Bernie Sanders. The writing is on the wall folks -- share the wealth a bit or lose it all. Greedy pigs always lose.