Cameron was shredded on leaving the EU.

[Paul Markham]

All he could go back to was the economy. Over and over again it was stronger by staying IN.

For most Brits being IN has made them poorer. Lower wages, no jobs, higher house prices, worse services. He couldn't answer the question about wages rising if UK the EU leaves.

He even hinted about a stronger centralist Government in the EU. Making more and more decisions for the 27 countries. A Government dominated by poorer countries.

[JFK]

Lets see how it ends up. I think even if the vote is Yes, it wont matter, they will come up with some bullshit pretext, to stay.

[redwhiteandblue]

Originally Posted by JFK

Lets see how it ends up. I think even if the vote is Yes, it wont matter, they will come up with some bullshit pretext, to stay.

Yep. The EU will come up with some deal, say allowing some sort of cap on immigrants, and Cameron will say, "well the British people would have voted differently if we'd had that, so we'll stay".

Next thing, we'll be handing over our defence assets to a new EU army....

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

All he could go back to was the economy. Over and over again it was stronger by staying IN.

For most Brits being IN has made them poorer. Lower wages, no jobs, higher house prices, worse services. He couldn't answer the question about wages rising if UK the EU leaves.

He even hinted about a stronger centralist Government in the EU. Making more and more decisions for the 27 countries. A Government dominated by poorer countries.

Paul, serious question, if the Brexit happens - will you move back to the UK?

After all you are an economic immigrant to the CZ who does not speak the language but has benefited vastly from the health system, lower taxes (compared to your home country) and the freedom to do a profession that they tried to put you in jail for at home.

I do know several UK people here in Brno, no one of them would vote for the Brexit since they all benefit from the freedom the EU gives them.

You are the only one that I know that takes all the benefits and still agitates against it. That's like a cow that applies for the butchers union.

Why is that? Is it an age thing?

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

Paul, serious question, if the Brexit happens - will you move back to the UK?

After all you are an economic immigrant to the CZ who does not speak the language but has benefited vastly from the health system, lower taxes (compared to your home country) and the freedom to do a profession that they tried to put you in jail for at home.

I do know several UK people here in Brno, no one of them would vote for the Brexit since they all benefit from the freedom the EU gives them.

You are the only one that I know that takes all the benefits and still agitates against it. That's like a cow that applies for the butchers union.

Why is that? Is it an age thing?

I came here before Czech joined. It was no problem. I have paid more in taxes than the average Czech or you. Brought wealth and jobs here. The people I know here from outside are all people who would be allowed in. They all contribute more than they take out.

Eva works for a Danish company. Here because the wages are cheaper than Denmark.

The people I know from Czech or Poland would never get pass a vetting system, live on benefits, doing low paid jobs Brit can do. My Brother in Law livig here, drives for a German compnay, for less than a German would ask for.

You do understand that regulating migration benefits the poor in the country the migrants move to and businessmen like us are welcome everywhere. Or maybe you think a hospital porter has as much value as a surgeon!!!

[Paul Markham]

Will EU cut off the best non-EU market for their cars industry?

Stop worrying about trade deals. It comes down to one question, does the EU want to be poorer?

The contributing countries are Germany, UK, Holand, Denmark, and France, tell me if I missed one out. The rest are reliant on those few. For jobs mostly. Be it migrants going to the richer countries or companies based in richer countries moving their opeerations to poorer ones.

So will the EU bureaucrats damage EU companies to spank Britain for breaking their party up. Then how will the people of those EU countries respond?

Should the UK leave and not get spanked costing the EU jobs and money. Who will be next to vote themself out of the facade?

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

Paul, serious question, if the Brexit happens - will you move back to the UK?

After all you are an economic immigrant to the CZ who does not speak the language but has benefited vastly from the health system, lower taxes (compared to your home country) and the freedom to do a profession that they tried to put you in jail for at home.

I do know several UK people here in Brno, no one of them would vote for the Brexit since they all benefit from the freedom the EU gives them.

You are the only one that I know that takes all the benefits and still agitates against it. That's like a cow that applies for the butchers union.

Why is that? Is it an age thing?

Some people see it as a referendum that is beyond their own personal well being.
It is not about what certain person benefits, it is about whole UK.
You can benefit from EU, but see greater good in brexit because you look past your own personal interest and see the interest of whole UK.
Not everyone is that selfish.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Some people see it as a referendum that is beyond their own personal well being.
It is not about what certain person benefits, it is about whole UK.
You can benefit from EU, but see greater good in brexit because you look past your own personal interest and see the interest of whole UK.
Not everyone is that selfish.

So what are the benefits that are so good most should be poorer?

[ianmoone332000]

Well im in the UK and have 3 kids futures to think about. Its been over 40 years since the people got to vote on the EU. Can you honestly imagine what type of country we would be handing over to them with another 40+ of mass immigration?. When it comes to them getting a job?. When they need to get social housing or buy a house?. Where will the NHS be?. It is totally unsustainable. Not to mention they are eroding the cities they move into of all its British values. Theres a reason large parts of London are now called Londanistan. They have turned them into 3rd world shit holes. Then there are all the people who died in wars to keep outsiders from taking powers over our country. They must be rolling in there graves seeing our spineless leaders now just hand it over.

[Paul Markham]

The Common Market, which is a great idea allowing good trade deals, movement of business and qualified people became the EU. Which is a shit sandwich.

The Euro has made many poverty stricken because corrupt and inept politicians were allowed to borrow their people into debt that can't afford. It did boost sales for countries like Germany and France, the architects of the Euro.

Migration of non-EU citizens is a disaster. Merkel was safe as they wouldn't live on her street, go to her hospital or to school with her kids. How many shelters has she ordered to be built in Germany? Forget about jobs, few of these migrants will get one and those they do will be ones German had. How much has she raised taxes to cover the costs she imposed on Germany?

The UK, France, Germany, and others lack well-paid jobs, houses, public services, schools, hospitals, prisons. How much more in tax should you pay to cover the costs of the needs migrants bring?

As Madalton says, I'm benefitting. Czech has a very stable population because many have moved to the UK, Germany, etc. And continue to do so. The downside is our house is only worth 20% more than we paid for it 14 years ago. How many can say that in countries with an open door policy?

The people who come here, have to have a job, somewhere to live and be able to support themselves 100%. Even pay for medical insurance before they get cared for.

Anyone who wants to know who has benefitted by EU membership. Look at the widening gap between the rich and poor. Or look at the income of those telling you to vote IN.

mineistaken what are the benefits?

[Lykos]

EU will never be able to work like US does... It's just too many different nations, cultures, history, etc etc....

[redwhiteandblue]

Originally Posted by Lykos

EU will never be able to work like US does... It's just too many different nations, cultures, history, etc etc....

Exactly. But the EU wants us all to become one big homogenised super state, with no national identities, no history, no borders, all our cultures mixed together into one because that's their vision of Utopia. But we won't know who the hell we are.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue

Exactly. But the EU wants us all to become one big homogenised super state, with no national identities, no history, no borders, all our cultures mixed together into one because that's their vision of Utopia. But we won't know who the hell we are.

i really have no idea where you take this from - so far nobody tried to take my identity away. but i know several EU projects that for example help cultural projects for minorities that otherwise would get no financing - the opposite of what you are saying.

but anyways - just like Trump supporters I figure that Brexit supporters are very articulate on social media and in public - in both cases i presume that the general population is not that unhappy with the status quo and the UK will remain in the EU and Clinton will be president.

[Hannes]

some plan will have to be implemented to compensate for the citizens loss in the situation

[ianmoone332000]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i really have no idea where you take this from - so far nobody tried to take my identity away. but i know several EU projects that for example help cultural projects for minorities that otherwise would get no financing - the opposite of what you are saying.

but anyways - just like Trump supporters I figure that Brexit supporters are very articulate on social media and in public - in both cases i presume that the general population is not that unhappy with the status quo and the UK will remain in the EU and Clinton will be president.

Everyone is in different situations. When you have worked in a place for 13 years and watch yourself and friends all get shown the door to Polish and other European people, you would feel different. Big companies love these immigrants. The wages they are receiving here are a fortune to them so they are never gonna ask for a pay rise. There never gonna try get better work place rules etc which, we all fought for over several years

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Lykos

EU will never be able to work like US does... It's just too many different nations, cultures, history, etc etc....

The bureaucrats know that and it will have no affect on them ruling from the centre. With laws that are one size fits all.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i really have no idea where you take this from - so far nobody tried to take my identity away. but i know several EU projects that for example help cultural projects for minorities that otherwise would get no financing - the opposite of what you are saying.

but anyways - just like Trump supporters I figure that Brexit supporters are very articulate on social media and in public - in both cases i presume that the general population is not that unhappy with the status quo and the UK will remain in the EU and Clinton will be president.

So the EU takes with one hand and gives with another. While in between a lot goes missing. Saying these projects would never get financing, is the money charity?

Cameron is very articulate and keeps telling people who became poorer from being in the EU, the economies fine.

Telling young people it's their future and expecting them to vote for a worse one by staying in. That's the truth unless you can prove the average worker is better off by being in the EU. You can't because there's proof they're poorer while the rich are richer.

The general population in the UK is split 50/50. Austria came close to voting for a Right Wing President. UKIP are a joke but got 4 million votes. Right Wing parties are increasing in strength. Once a middle of the road party realises most Europeans don't want to be ruled from Brussels and only want a trade deal. The nails go banging into the EU coffin.

Why are you so keen that Germany should be ruled by Brussels? Unless you think the real rulers will be in Berlin. then you're delusional. Germany is there to fund the EU and supply jobs to non-Germans. For the benefit of employers.

[Scott McD]

Out out out !!!



(but probably won't happen) sigh...

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by ianmoone332000

Everyone is in different situations. When you have worked in a place for 13 years and watch yourself and friends all get shown the door to Polish and other European people, you would feel different. Big companies love these immigrants. The wages they are receiving here are a fortune to them so they are never gonna ask for a pay rise. There never gonna try get better work place rules etc which, we all fought for over several years

Brno has been transformed by companies moving here. It's not just the company Eva works for there are so many new office blocks going up there's constant change. So not only are Eastern Europeans taking jobs in Germany, UK, etc. companies are moving entire plants East. The people Madalton knows are management and skilled. They will be replaced by local workers on local rates. That's how Eva got her job.

The low skilled have moved out of Czech in such large numbers the population is stable. Eva has problems finding people like warehousemen and van drivers. Truck drivers are paid very well because they can go to Germany where they work for less than a German.

The ideal of a Socialist Europe couldn't be further from the truth. Unless you're poor and able to migrate. To work for bosses wanting to cut wages.

Madalton tell us the benefits of The United States of Europe.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by ianmoone332000

Everyone is in different situations. When you have worked in a place for 13 years and watch yourself and friends all get shown the door to Polish and other European people, you would feel different. Big companies love these immigrants. The wages they are receiving here are a fortune to them so they are never gonna ask for a pay rise. There never gonna try get better work place rules etc which, we all fought for over several years

you do realize that to have access to the common market after the Brexit you would have to go the route of Norway (for example) - which means adopting most of the EU rules, accepting freedom of movement but you would have no say anymore when those rules are made?

Just read an interesting interview with the prime minister of Norway that pointed out the negative sides of their position.

When people like Farage say it will be all fine and dandy - would he put his money on it?

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Madalton tell us the benefits of The United States of Europe.

I'll let this guy say it for me

https://www.facebook.com/mark.salad....22?pnref=story


Do I like every bit of EU bureaucracy? Of course not - who the fuck would.

But you should be old enough to remember that Greece, Spain and Portugal used to be dictatorships.

That whole middle and eastern Europe was in shreds after 1989

that the UK was called the dirty man of Europe because no regulations existed that were meant to preserve the environment - should I post some pics of Liverpool or Manchester in the 1970ties?

People easily forget that it was EU regulations why nowadays air, forests and rivers are clean again.

but i know i just waste my time and breath here

[oppoten]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

so far nobody tried to take my identity away.

No need, you already lost it

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

you do realize that to have access to the common market after the Brexit you would have to go the route of Norway (for example) - which means adopting most of the EU rules, accepting freedom of movement but you would have no say anymore when those rules are made?

Just read an interesting interview with the prime minister of Norway that pointed out the negative sides of their position.

When people like Farage say it will be all fine and dandy - would he put his money on it?

That goes 2 ways. For EU companies to have access to the UK market, they would have to ask nicely and accept UK terms. Assuming our politicians don't cave in and go the way of a small insignificant market.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

I'll let this guy say it for me

https://www.facebook.com/mark.salad....22?pnref=story


Do I like every bit of EU bureaucracy? Of course not - who the fuck would.

But you should be old enough to remember that Greece, Spain and Portugal used to be dictatorships.

That whole middle and eastern Europe was in shreds after 1989

that the UK was called the dirty man of Europe because no regulations existed that were meant to preserve the environment - should I post some pics of Liverpool or Manchester in the 1970ties?

People easily forget that it was EU regulations why nowadays air, forests and rivers are clean again.

but i know i just waste my time and breath here

A picture of what German Bombers did to Britain. The irony.

Greece, Spain and Portugal are now broke because EU idiots gave them the ability to borrow money knowing Germans would bail them out.

Bullshit about middle and eastern Europe.

You posted pictures of what Germans did to Britain. Enough said.

Agreed, great orginisation for sorting out air pollution. Not the future of 500 million.

Your reasons are flimsy and show a distinct lack of knowledge. This is about Brussels dominated by poorer countries rulling Germany and Germans. The problem is they have proven incapable of doing the job many times.

[Paul Markham]

Facts.

A small group of politicians and bureaucrats hold 500 million people by the balls. They have built a wall of trade. Saying that if you want to trade with each other, you have to be ruled by us.

The UK, GDP $2.678 trillion ‎(2013) Population 64.1 million. Is expected to accept the same deal as Norway, GDP $512.6 billion USD ‎(2013) Population 5.084 million. If the British say no. Many Europeans will be out of a job. The EU risks the shares of the companies in the EU trading with the UK. To drop.

Do the 500 million want to trade with each other? YES.
Do they want to be ruled from the center? NO

The problem is people need to vote out the inept clowns who demand they rule us.

[RummyBoy]

Why A UK Billionaire Believes Brexit Would Be "Good For The UK" | Zero Hedge

From above interview with UK Billionaire, Peter Hargreaves:

"Q: Why do you support "Leave"?

A: Every year in the EU it gets more political, it gets more legislative, more regulative; we don’t seem to get very much benefit from it. We will be far better out. The EU as an economic mark is declining in the world, when there were only nine countries in it was 30 percent of the world's GDP, now there are 28 it is only 17 percent. That's some serious decline. Other countries that are growing — India, parts of Africa, Brazil, China and even Russia — are the places we should be trading with."

[The Porn Nerd]

The #1 problem, as the current Eurocup mania proves, is that 27 disparate nations cannot and will never act "as one" the way a new country, the USA, has managed to do for 200+ years. The fury in which people from Spain, Italy, France, Bulgaria, Estonia, Romania, etc defend their national identities and pride is fanatical. There will never be integration or a European "melting pot".

We are the great American 'experiment", and you can decide whether the experiement is suceeding or failing. For the most part I think it's succeeding. The people who immigrate to the USA somehow manage to be both American and still honor their heritages. I do not see this as a possibility in Europe.

[Jigster715]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i really have no idea where you take this from - so far nobody tried to take my identity away. but i know several EU projects that for example help cultural projects for minorities that otherwise would get no financing - the opposite of what you are saying.

but anyways - just like Trump supporters I figure that Brexit supporters are very articulate on social media and in public - in both cases i presume that the general population is not that unhappy with the status quo and the UK will remain in the EU and Clinton will be president.

^^^^^^ Yeppers.Rigged votes, paid off politics...whatever it takes.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by RummyBoy

Why A UK Billionaire Believes Brexit Would Be "Good For The UK" | Zero Hedge

From above interview with UK Billionaire, Peter Hargreaves:

"Q: Why do you support "Leave"?

A: Every year in the EU it gets more political, it gets more legislative, more regulative; we don?t seem to get very much benefit from it. We will be far better out. The EU as an economic mark is declining in the world, when there were only nine countries in it was 30 percent of the world's GDP, now there are 28 it is only 17 percent. That's some serious decline. Other countries that are growing ? India, parts of Africa, Brazil, China and even Russia ? are the places we should be trading with."

With the freedom to negotiate one's own deals. One can demand of China that they buy more or sell less. This has been removed by the EU so one group of bureaucrats control trading. Even to the point of them cutting off their largest trade market because it doesn't want to be ruled by them.

When one can negotiates one's own trade deal. One can negotiate one that allows non-EU businesses to sue EU Government for not allowing them to bid for contracts in that country. It allowed one country to veto actions to protect the EUs entire Steel producing industry from China who are deliberately dumping Steel to close the EU's ability to produce Steel. Yes, it was the UK. There are many other examples of the EU fucking itself in the ass.

Like an unskilled worker can move around the entire EU and claim benefits. A skilled surgeon from India needs to jump through many hoops to get a visa. That will change for the UK once the EU ratifies their special status. so most of those migrants will head for German jobs.

[ianmoone332000]

Another thing i find weird. The site pollstation is one of the biggest polling sites for this EU referendum and people need to register to place a vote. It is also the largest amount of people voting in the one poll with over 140k people. Look at the results so far.

The EU Referendum by Pollstation

81% of votes are for leave. Either something fishy is going on or a lot of remainers are going to be shocked come friday morning

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

You posted pictures of what Germans did to Britain. Enough said.

Should I post pictures of what the British did to Hamburg - including killing half of my fathers family (which btw were social democrats and had already problems enough with the Nazis)?

While you think you got me here, you are actually making a good point for me - the fact that as a European Union it is very much unlikely that the members will go to war with each other (again) - as at least the last 70 years have proven.


Interesting stats btw: Brexit: Who’s Voting What - WSJ.com

Basically older, less educated nationalists (Ukip) are against a future that younger, more educated Brits would prefer.

I hope you guys are really that smart that you are sure to do the right thing for the future of your children when you deny them their wish.

[redwhiteandblue]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

Basically older, less educated nationalists (Ukip) are against a future that younger, more educated Brits would prefer.

Younger, more educated but less wise to the ways of politicians. The older generation on the other hand remember the referendum we had just after we first joined and how we were conned into thinking the EEC was just a free trade area.

[redwhiteandblue]

Originally Posted by ianmoone332000

Another thing i find weird. The site pollstation is one of the biggest polling sites for this EU referendum and people need to register to place a vote. It is also the largest amount of people voting in the one poll with over 140k people. Look at the results so far.

The EU Referendum by Pollstation

81% of votes are for leave. Either something fishy is going on or a lot of remainers are going to be shocked come friday morning

I suppose that can be explained Ian, by it not being linked in places where remainers are likely to be looking, so the result is probably not all that representative. Still, 81% is high.

[nico-t]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

I do know several UK people here in Brno, no one of them would vote for the Brexit since they all benefit from the freedom the EU gives them.

Not surprised you seek out acquaintances who have the same limited naive view on these type of matters. I bet you are against a Brexit as well, because corrupt establishment agenda pushing media says it's bad.

[nico-t]

Just now reading the rest of the thread and to my surprise i'm right.

You, my friend, are a classic example of someone who parrots anything MSM tells you.

[dyna mo]

Anyone that thinks Trump voters are articulate and the general pop of the USA is Ok with the status quo is very much disconnected from the reality and how politics works.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

Should I post pictures of what the British did to Hamburg - including killing half of my fathers family (which btw were social democrats and had already problems enough with the Nazis)?.

Germany started it.

While you think you got me here, you are actually making a good point for me - the fact that as a European Union it is very much unlikely that the members will go to war with each other (again) - as at least the last 70 years have proven.

For most of that time we had Russia on our frontier. Do you think Germany will start another one?

Interesting stats btw: Brexit: Who?s Voting What - WSJ.com

Basically older, less educated nationalists (Ukip) are against a future that younger, more educated Brits would prefer.

I hope you guys are really that smart that you are sure to do the right thing for the future of your children when you deny them their wish

When will it start to get better for the younger voters? So far it has put many out of work or on low wages, in some countries, it has ruined their present and future.

Except in one place.



That will go up when Germany can no longer sell as to the UK. The UK rate will drop as low skilled and unemployed migrants return home, or move to Germany.

If most British were richer, there would be no need for a referendum. The problem is most are poorer. A huge percentile who could once have afforded to buy, now wait for the Government to build them a house or pay exorbitant rents. Often subsidised by the taxpayers. Wages have dropped. Healthcare is a major problem and will continue to be so unless the population is cut or a lot more people pay more in taxes. And there's the real problem, no matter how much politicians claim we're better in, they see themselves worse off by being in. And all you offer is hope it will all change and get better and we won't go to war.

Criminals are coming in from the EU. Britain's prisons see huge rise in EU convicts at £150million cost to taxpayer | UK | News | Daily Express Read the article to see why the EU is the problem. There's a treaty that say we should ship them back. Are they going back?

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue

Younger, more educated but less wise to the ways of politicians. The older generation on the other hand remember the referendum we had just after we first joined and how we were conned into thinking the EEC was just a free trade area.

They have never known any different. Some of their fears are silly. They're worried that won't be able to work, travel, live in the EU. That's BS. Anyone can live anywhere, so long as they're self-supporting 100% or have a skilled job that's required in the country they choose. Which is how most of the world operates.

Try coming to Eastern Europe and living on benefits of any type.

[ianmoone332000]

Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue

I suppose that can be explained Ian, by it not being linked in places where remainers are likely to be looking, so the result is probably not all that representative. Still, 81% is high.

I just found it strange Red. Most of the polls you see always say " we sampled 2k people" etc. With that being over 140k, il hope over the next few days its somewhat true and we are heading for the exit.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

Anyone that thinks Trump voters are articulate and the general pop of the USA is Ok with the status quo is very much disconnected from the reality and how politics works.

Trump has tapped into a large percentile of very unhappy voters. There are millions of Americans who are sick of the way politics exclude them.

The problem is Trump. If he were more sensible, informed, patient and not trying to act batshit crazy. He would win.

Sanders would be my next choice, don't like his migration policy, though.

Will the GOP come up with better candidates? Or consign itself to losing again?

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by ianmoone332000

Another thing i find weird. The site pollstation is one of the biggest polling sites for this EU referendum and people need to register to place a vote. It is also the largest amount of people voting in the one poll with over 140k people. Look at the results so far.

The EU Referendum by Pollstation

81% of votes are for leave. Either something fishy is going on or a lot of remainers are going to be shocked come friday morning

Send this viral so it gets a larger audience. I did my bit.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

A picture of what German Bombers did to Britain. The irony.

Greece, Spain and Portugal are now broke because EU idiots gave them the ability to borrow money knowing Germans would bail them out.

Bullshit about middle and eastern Europe.

You posted pictures of what Germans did to Britain. Enough said.

Agreed, great orginisation for sorting out air pollution. Not the future of 500 million.

Your reasons are flimsy and show a distinct lack of knowledge. This is about Brussels dominated by poorer countries rulling Germany and Germans. The problem is they have proven incapable of doing the job many times.

i thought it was cause Goldman Sachs was loaning them money under the table, and then turned around and set up a 90 million dollar trust fund when shit hit the fan, in order to 'take over the infrastructure' based on the math of austerity?

and we know how that turned out.