TheFLY

50 nigga!

DannyW

If it's you that introduces the surfer, it works out at 30% (after you've been running a while), and you get an extra 10% of everything he spends on other sites until he's spent $100.

No Chargeback fees.

No Holdback fees.

And you're charging for stuff that maybe used to be free.

And you still upsell to full subscriptions.

Regards - Danny

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TheFLY

This is what u should do... retrofit a real "converting" paysite with this system... set up a 50/50 program with it so if each pic is $.04 then u give the affiliate $.02... If your micropayment system doesn't make at least the same amout of money -- then throw in the towel...

I suppose there's an intrinsic value in having a pool of surfers that are credit card info "enabled" -- and just throw content at them... but they still have to "recharge" their accounts, correct? So what's the point of having micropayments anyway? Otherwise u would have too many concerns about fraud, etc. when the $ billed is a "mysterious" amount -- sure you calculated how much they owe using some simple algorithm -- but if you ever looked at your cell phone bill and became totally enraged (like I do every time) -- you can see where u will have a customer service nightmare on your hands haha... I can see KimmyKim having a field day with this...

TheFLY

IN summary -- to me it seems the bottleneck is always the creditcard AND fraud... micropayments and creditcards just don't mix...

I think u should stick to mainstream -- somebody will have to get the public to accept the IDEA of micropayments... but I don't see it happening any time soon... because most people work paycheck to paycheck -- MOST people still budget everything! They buy some gas, they write it down...

U know what some cool ass shit would be is like a little cash card that had some tiny pager technology in it and then a digital LED display of how much cash is left on it... so you could charge your gas or a porn site membership and INSTANTLY your new balance would be zapped through the air to the card so you could see the new balance... THat would be the bomb... you could shape it so the card would still swipe on most machines, but still have the little radio-wave receiver to calculate your balance for remote purchases...

that would be so cool somebody patent that shit and send me 5% :p

DannyW

Thanks for all that Fly.

At the moment, you are trying to get $30 out of a surfer for a site he hasn't seen yet. 1) He doesn't trust you to deliver, and 2), he only wants a wank.

One in however many thousand surfers are buying that, but an awful lot of people are choosing to stay "free", because the only other option is risking $30.

Our alternative is to show him the picture or video he will get, at a price that is trivial. He'll see that there are a huge number of these premium pics and clips both on partly free galleries, and on paysites that have made part of their content available on per-click payments (as an upsell to their subscriptions).

He doesn't have to trust anyone, and his $10 topup fee will last for ever, not just a month. So the barriers we have to overcome are much less than those for a subscription site.

Once he's paid, of course he will spend the money faster than he expected. But nobody's tricked him, he got what he expected and spent his money at a rate that was good for him. He can see his balance all the time on his toolbar, and he confirms every cent he spends (or chooses not to for tiny payments). So there's every reason why he'll be happy with the system and keep topping up that account.

Chargebacks should only occur due to real fraud, rather than dissatisfaction. If he's dissatisfied with an individual click, we'll refund his 5 cents rather than risk a chargeback. So the only chargebacks should be stolen cards or just tossers who like charging back for fun. It certainly should be less than for subscription sites, expecially as we don't rely on recurring payments.

The important thing is for sites that they will get a small amount off a higher proportion of surfers, and still have the chance to upsell to a full subscription for those finding themselves spending at a high rate.

We're going after a little each month from the people who spend nothing - not taking away from subscription site spending. If we can move any proportion of free porn over to pay-per-click, it will have a fantastic positive effect on subscription spending too.

By the way, the traffic-payment lets you pay affiliates on a % basis just as you suggest, so if you want to set up a site like that, we'll help you get it going.


Regards,
Danny

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DannyW

Groove - Sorry, I wrongly implied it was you I'd been talking to about the list of sites. It was someone else. I get confused between email names, real names, and post names!

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TheFLY

I'm pretty sure this model has been tried before... of showing the surfer a demo of the members area... it doesn't work. Gammacash used to do this... it never really caught on...

Think about it like a nightclub -- if you could look inside and see that there are maybe 2 hot chicks and they are both with some other guys -- you're not going to pay a $10 cover... The grass is always greener on the side you can't see hehe... U show the surfer the members area and it doesn't look so appealing anymore... Look at what amateur pages does -- the surfer gets teased with a strip show -- think of the psychology here.... it's personalized... not just about a matrix of pics in some browsing interface...

Maybe try your system on webcam sites... micropayments for private shows would work if it was an easy system... These cam girls have to coach the morons into paying for private 1 on 1... The easier it is to get money from these guys the better...

But all this speculation doesn't mean much -- either you can out-perform traditional membership systems (where most of the money is just made on the surfer forgetting to cancel the rebill) or you can't -- otherwise who will send traffic? Especially when token systems have been around FOREVER and that never really caught on...

TheFLY

i hate to be the naysayer but really micropayments have been promised to the masses since the 80's man... i used to read about it in BBS magazines... it's a geek concept... sure geeks think it's a cool idea but the general public doesn't think like us... common sense doesn't always translate... the real geeks would never pay for porn anyway -- you are appealing to the dumb fucks that buy exercise equipment on infomertials... why do you think the ratios are so bad? getting conversions is like trolling for morons and suckers...

DannyW

Fly - this is the reason its so hard to sell subscriptions. There's only so many times you pay for a nightclub ticket before you learn that the ones that won't let you see inside are the ones that aren't any good.

Again - surfers are sick of this. Many have been fooled once, maybe twice. They aren't going to be fooled a third time.

Our system lets him see the girl he's going to be dancing with at the nightclub, before he pays to get in. Then once he's paid, he's got $10 in his pocket to spend on all the other girls.

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DannyW

Thanks Fly, but Token Systems cannot be compared to PAYC. It charged 20 cents or more per gallery BEFORE letting the surfer see what was in it.

It didn't allow upsells within the gallery.

It didn't have a traffic reward system, so there was no incentive for anyone to list the galleries.

And each purchase required the user to go through several pages, entering PINS etc, to get access to the gallery.

And I'm told they had poor support, poor security, and poor marketing. I hope you won't hear that from the people we're working with right now.

If you're trying to fool the surfer into parting with his money, PayAsYouClick isn't for you. If you have spotted that there are a lot of people that want porn, and you happen to have some of it for sale, PayAsYouClick just might be another way of getting the money out of his pocket and into yours.

Regards
Danny

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2dXtreme

I'm not sure this will be a success, but just imagine if TGP's converted all those free galleries to this model.

I know, I know propably a pipedream but I would love to see it come true.

I think I will try this concept and see where it takes me

DannyW

Hit me up if you want me to take you through a demo 2D

ICQ : 175562783

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TheFLY

ok well at least u thought this through but it won't matter if it doesn't make money...

looking at this grassroots of this biz now -- i'd try to do something with these movie archive guys... right now they are all under AVS but if u could offer them some kind of more profitable movie archive (where the surfer just pays for the movies not in his collection) -- then u may be onto something...

right now I think most of these archive sites use movies legally through the "AVS" so you probably would have to figure out a way to get a lot of really hot movie content... probably won't be easy to compete w/ DeluxePass they got some really good movies...

DannyW

Fly - thanks for that. Hope we can get you to try us out on your sites.

And yes, I also see movies as one the major targets. They pay masses in bandwidth and scratch for a profit. And they're going exactly the same way as the free pics. A year ago you would only see ten second clips, now you get 4x1 minute clips posted on the hun.

It's so easy to charge for clips. Look at those sites that show 2 out of twenty 30-second clips each day, so surfers keep coming back. That's great, but give them an option to pay 5 cents for each of the other 18 in the series. That's 90 cents you just made, and you've still got the upsell.


Regards,

Danny

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Kimmykim

If theFly doesn't like it, it must be bound to work.

JosephS

A great idea. Good luck.

But capping the webmaster and referral commisions is a BAD idea!
You dont want to be locked into this program you say? Why?
If its a good idea then stand behind it.
Many adult webmaster programs pay for referring webmasters and they pay for life. That encourages people to referr larger accounts. You could always change your terms in the future if you properly inform everyone ahead of time as most TOCs leave room for their terms changing. But it makes no sense to cap referral commissions.

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DannyW

Thanks Joseph, we'll give that some serious thought.

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meatloaf

Hi DannyW,

I think the PRODUCT is great, but like everything it needs mass behind it. 40% processing fee is too high, 20% & we can talk.

But like all other technologies this will only WORK if you are doing something to get users to signup for the product. This technology needs to be like paypal for tgp's extra to move over in a big way.

If you've got a plan for this many, many webmasters will get behind you. But if you are soley relying on webmasters to recruit your users then it will be very limited.

meatloaf

meatloaf

Another thought, if you have patented the technology why don't you license or joint venture up with the existing 3rd party payment processors? This would give you access to mass users. If paypal wasn't out of adult they would have been an ok option.

if you had a massive user base, or a fast growing user base then many sites would convert over. The marketing behind a premium style section with most tgp's /movie posts would be very interesting.

What are your plans for getting mass users to adopt your technology? Pre-bundling, a commission based structure for people recruiting users (like 5% of what the user spends for life). that would be some incentive to bundle & promote in mailers etc.

How solid is your company?

DannyW

Hi Meatloaf,

You're absolutely right about needing the mass of surfers and webmasters. Its a chicken and egg problem, and it has stumped every previous attempt at micropayments. Without lots of users, it isn't attractive to webmasters. Without lots of sites, it isn't attractive to surfers. So it would go nowhere without someone taking the first step.

We can't solve that problem on our own, and in any other industry the product wouldn't have a chance of getting off the ground.

But if the adult industry chooses to make it work, it can, and so far it looks like we're on the way. The way to get that mass of surfers is through the existing high-traffic adult sites.

All being well, we should soon have a lot of part-free / part PAYC galleries on existing high-traffic TGPs. These galleries will automatically pay a proportion of their PAYC income to the TGP that sent the traffic. Even before the PAYC income becomes significant, they will still be upselling to subscription sites, so nobody loses by building or listing these galleries.

Once surfers are exposed to a large number of these galleries with the extra pics or video clips costing just a few cents, we'll start getting them signing up.

Once we start getting the signups, it becomes more attractive to webmasters, and more attractive to surfers. More surfers mean more sites, more sites mean more surfers - the effect snowballs.

Once it is at that level, you could see a substantial amount of free porn move to PAYC, which will drive UP the subscription income for sites that choose that model. You would no longer have to moan about free porn and TGPs - TGPs would be the life blood of the industry.

Once we're getting the volume through, we can negotiate better processing rates, and I would expect our rate to drop down nearer 20%.

But at these early stages, we're paying 15%+5% holdback for processing, 10% for our costs, bandwidth, development, chargeback fees etc, and the referral commissions add another 10-20%. The referral commissions are designed to provide a massive reward to the early adopting webmasters - its designed to help crack this chicken and egg problem.

So we don't have the luxury of dropping our "headline" rate down to 20% - and you have to remember your PAYC income is ON TOP of what you're currently getting from subscription partnerships.

If our product is truly successful, the benefits for the whole of the adult industry are immeasurable. And we've constructed the payment model so nobody should lose a penny by trying it, and get rapid extra income if it works.

Try it. You have so much to gain, and nothing to lose.

Regards,

Danny
ICQ : 175562783

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DannyW

Meatloaf - our last posts crossed.

Initially, 10% of what the surfer spends, capped at $10.

But look, you can't ask for low fees in one breath and high referrals in the next ;-) We've tried to strike a balance between the two. We want to reward early adopters, but we are capping the referrals so we can drop the fees as quickly as possible once traffic builds. we might reconsider the best mix, but for the start-up period it looks about right.

How solid is the company? We are a new company set up in the UK to develop this opportunity, totally debt free. We intend to stay that way, so you won't see us funding referrals from money we aren't getting in, or dropping our fees to an unsustainable level.

We are not averse to a partnership or license scheme with existing processors on the right terms. We approached several during development, it was like talking to a brick wall. Now they can see the system works - they know where we are.

Best Regards,
Danny

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WebDork

I think the concept is great. Im certainly willing to trial it!

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pornguy

Danny we are interested and have a site that we can build around it...

I have tried to get to your site but your server is down...


e-mail me at tech at adultswebsites dot com



Thanks.

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tony286

I think micropayments arent a good thing, if its a question of surfers feel like they are getting screwed for a full memebership then shame on the people creating those sites. You had mentioned something about they just want to wank off. Someone spends $10 ,downloads the pics he needs to jerk off and we never see him again. I think micropayments arent the answer, I think stop making crappy sites with the same old content and worn plug ins is the answer.

DannyW

Thanks for your interest in www.payasyouclick.com. We weren't planning an announcment yet, I but wouldn't want the thread to go unanswered.

We suspended the technical trial last year while we made some significant changes. These were in line with the feedback we received on this and other boards, and with ideas put forward by the webmasters involved in the trial.

Main advances :

a) No longer requires the user to download the toolbar
b) Supports all major web browsers, not just IE.
c) Payment structure is completely revised - roughly in line with third party processors even on transactions of one cent.
d) Simpler site-conversion for webmasters - 15 minutes per gallery / AVS.
e) Several features demonstrated at Internext that I can't yet reveal.

We also needed to overcome some regulatory and commercial hurdles, including obtaining a licence from the UK's Financial Services Authority, and securing sufficient finance to properly develop the business. We've now got both of these.

We are currently working with a number of well known content providers / webmasters to put together the initial wave of sites, ready for an official launch in the second quarter of 2004.

If you would like to be involved in the initial launch, please contact me at dwatkins at payasyouclick dot com. We would like to hear from TGP owners, gallery builders, and small to medium sized paysites.

I won't be monitoring this thread, but I will contact those who've posted their interest here today.

Best Wishes,

Danny Watkins

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BV

micropayments works for those peepshows that you drop a quarter in and the curtain opens for 30 seconds

sexsup

The idea is really good, and the improvements too (overall the toolbar download matter)
Good luck

Davy

Gone with the wind!

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