Blistex

Why does anyone succeed why others fail? Not everyone was born with a silver spoon like you Colin.

You are the one claiming entire ghettos of people are only there because they are lazy and stupid. No other factors involved.

ADL Colin

Haha. Right. I went from having state-assisted free lunch in high school to the top tax bracket today.

Now what we all want to know is why have I succeeded while you have failed? That whole "slavery to corporate America" attitude is keeping you down. Invest in corporate America. Participate. Be a part if it. You look at the top income earners in the world and despise them. I look at them and learn.

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Blistex

So far all it looks like is you learned how to argue like 12Clicks.

I have more stuff so I am better than you. I consume more, I contribute more to the machine that owns me, therefore I am better.

Congrats to you and all your stuff. I wish I could wake up every day and realize my identity rests upon what someone decides to sell me. You rule.

Libertine

You apparently misunderstood it. Take another look.

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Libertine

Good point. For some reason in today's culture people seem to think wealth has an intrinsic and decisive moral value. A rather odd conception, if you ask me.

What it does show quite nicely is how animalistic and irrational humans actually are. They place all their value in a kind of social acceptance which is ultimately and rationally utterly meaningless.

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ADL Colin

So you wish to exchange one animalistic, irrational, utterly meaningless sense of being for another and then proclaim the second to be superior? What did you do today that was so great? Feed the poor, donate to charity, write a book? What?

It's not about "social acceptance". I don't where you get that from. I earn so I can do whatever I wish. If I wish to take a year off from work, so be it. If I wish to read and study for a year without having to work, I can. It's called "luxury class" for a reason, you know.

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ADL Colin

PW,

I don't know what you're trying to say.

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Blistex

Why do you always think in terms of consumption? You have a sickness.

Some people choose spirituality, education, or other non tangibles as a measure of self worth.

Libertine

What gives you the idea that all values are animalistic, irrational and utterly meaningless?

Btw, I did write a book today... or at least a few pages of it

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ADL Colin

Who says I do? You assume too much.

I went to one of the top universities in the world. Educating onself is too easy. I prefer a greater challenge.

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ADL Colin

And what makes you the authority to say that the pursuit of wealth is animalistic, irrational, and utterly meaningless? Actually, I'd say it's quite rational and what is meaningful to one is not to another. And animalistic? A strange set of pejoratives from Punkworld. You make quite the leap from the pursuit of wealth to "social acceptance".

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Blistex

Thats not what he said.

People, like you, who base their self worth on accumulation of capital and goods, and judge others based upon their lack of capital and goods, are irrational.

You have no identity outside of what you consume.

It is possible to have wealth without making it your identity.

ADL Colin

Hey, cool. I made a $25k/month deal this morning and played video games. I hope you got as much satisfaction as I did. What are you writing? You know I love writing. ;-)

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kenny

They ended that double tax making it more likely for people to take out money and pump it into the economy.

Small buisness has also accelerated last quarter.

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theking

It is also possible to have wealth and have identity other than wealth. Wealth is not a bad thing or a good thing.

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ADL Colin

Where did I say that? Where did I mention "identity" or associate consumption with self-worth? You're just another parrot droning on and repeating the same old tired phrases; "capital and goods" .. blah, blah, blah ..."consumption" .. blah, blah. blah ... "irrational" .. blah blah blah. You post but do not read.

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Blistex

Hence why I said, "It is possible to have wealth without making it your identity."

Blistex

Gee it was hard to make that assumption when you are saying people are poor simply because they are lazy and stupid and saying I am just a impoverished blathering idiot because I choose not to consume and embrace corporate America as much as you. No, you are not transparent. It was real hard to figure out what you value.

Libertine

The pursuit of wealth, in todays society, is in most cases a pursuit of a higher position on the social ladder. A bit like trying to become the head or the alpha wolf.
Why do almost all kids want to become popstars, actors models and other things like that? Simply because the job seems nice to them? No, because being considered beautiful, being admired, being copied and having "bling bling" all amount to one thing: extreme popularity, in other words, an extremely high position on the social ladder.

Moreover, it's a value which is imposed on us by society. Having loads of money, loads of useless gadgets, more cars than you can ever drive are presented as the "good" life. Not just good from the perspective of enjoyment, but from a moral perspective. The rich and famous are presented as role models, not because of their contribution to society, not because of their fulfilling lives, but because of their position on the social ladder.

However, apart from that position on the social ladder and massive amounts of unnecessary gadgets, what do riches actually bring to one's life?

...

<i>To be continued. Have to do some grocery shopping now before the stores close, will be back later. </i>

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ADL Colin

Where did I say "people are poor simply because they are lazy and stupid"? I challenge you. Quote me. If you value education so much why don't you read more carefully? Where did I say "because" indicating cause and effect?

Board Debate 101, my friend. Read the words that are written and leave the preconceived notions you came in with on the coat rack. You started out sounding like an idiot confused that I quoted the BBC.

You WILL get your education today. I was a teacher once, you know ;-)

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theking

Hmm...so you did...time for another cup of coffee I think...or maybe some sleep.

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Blistex

Oh look, Colin wants to play the semantics game.

So you didnt say that poverty was a disease of the stupid and lazy?

Confused? I just find it mildly ironic that a super patriot such as yourself would quote the traditional enemies of the right. Its like Coulter using the Socialist Times a source.

ADL Colin

LESSON ONE for you, Blistex. Use an incendiary title for your threads like "All bow before the power of America". Guaranteed to suck in a good crowd.

Points? 3 so far. Measured by the number of new partner requests from GFY today.

I'm here on this porn businessmessageboard to make more money. What are you here for? What is your goal? Surely not just out of loneliness. ;-)

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ADL Colin

Read above. Should I give you another lesson or are you starting to catch on now? I hope you're a quick study.

Ahh, I see now. You attempt to fit everyone into either a "left" box or a "right" one. Hmmm. Kinda simplistic. Is it not? What kind of member of the "right" is anti-capital punishment, pro-abortion, and believes that there should be social nets? Seems like your boxes are overflowing. You need new ones.

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ADL Colin

No, not semantics. It's called hyperbole, little fishy ;-)

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Blistex

No need, we have been watching AMP say the same thing for the last two weeks as he got his ass handed to him.

We know... we know... its about impressions blah de blah de blah. More consumption, more money, more posts, more more more, Colin needs more.

Quote:

Ahh, I see now. You attempt to fit everyone into either a "left" box or a "right" one. Hmmm. Kinda simplistic. Is it not? What kind of member of the "right" is anti-capital punishment, pro-abortion, and believes that there should be social nets? Seems like your boxes are overflowing. You need new ones.

You stuck yourself in a box calling everyone poor and stupid who doesnt agree with you or live like you do or who do not want to live like you do. No need to run down the list of your more sensitive traits, its about as tired as the guy who yells ****** and says, "im not racist, I got a black friend".

ADL Colin

What is this? "I know you are but what am I?" Were you trained at the Pee Wee Herman School of Debate or something?

Again. Why are you here?

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Blistex

eh? You say that I "attempt to fit everyone into either a "left" box or a "right" one", and I simply point out that rather than me placing you in a "box" that you did a fine job of categorizing yourself with your astounding theory of intelligence and poverty, I am now Pee Wee Herman alumni? I am assuming your major was not logic nor debate.

To watch you trip over your words.

Zebra

Sorry, I thought this was the bathroom.

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Old School

12clicks

Gee, which name did you used to post under before this one?

No, actually its, "you have nothing in a world were its simple to have something so I'm better than you"
a man's gotta eat.


oh, the sillyness of the loser.
yes, I'm owned by the machine.


deluding yourself that you haven't failed will get you nowhere, son.

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Libertine

Ah, you edited. Makes things a bit easier.

First, about pursuing riches being rational and meaningful. For that, we have to start at the end.

Life is temporally limited. Chances of dying probably are 100%, if you look at past results. Since one can't assume the unknown, all we have for sure (for sure being a very relative concept) is one single lifetime.
We can now take three routes; we can either say that there are no valuable things, and thus that that single lifetime has no value, nor do the things one does with it, we can say that only things without temporal limitation are valuable (may seem like an odd idea, but it can be defended rather well with some elaborate reasoning), and thus that that single lifetime has no value, nor do the things one does with it, or one could go with the most popular route.
The popular route, ofcourse, holds that there are valuable things, that a single lifetime is valuable, and that the things one does with his single lifetime are valuable as well.

If one holds that a life is valuable, and that the things one does with it are valuable as well, there are two possible positions. Either the value of life is solely intrinsic to life itself, or it is not. If it is, it does not matter what one does with it. If it isn't, apparently actions are valuable as well. In this case, it only matters what one does if actions have different values.

Let's assume that different actions do have different values, and that it does matter what one does. If we do this, we have a problem. On what do we base the values? If we base the values on the actions themselves, we are playing a game of randomness, hardly an option for deciding on real values.
So, let's choose an alternative - let's base the values of actions on the results of those actions. This at least gives us the possibility to come up with non-random values.

One possibility is to say happiness is the ultimate value. One could very well argue that hapiness is intrinsically valuable. After all, it's the one thing which feels good for everyone. In that case, however, one would be forced to admit that the happiness of others is just as valuable as that of oneself. After all, there is no objective reason to consider oneself more important than others. In this case, the pursuit of riches for oneself would be irrational and without value (or at least with relatively little value), since it is very clearly not the best way to create happiness for humanity as a whole. So, let's look at some other options.

One could, after a drinks, say that money and material possessions are intrinsically valuable. That would just be silly, though, since it would once again be completely random. One may just as well say that lack of money and material possessions are intrinsically valuable, and that humans should therefore pursue those things. One could even say the same thing about venerial diseases, for that matter, with the same (complete lack of) arguments.

But what about hedonism? Maybe the pleasures wealth brings are valuable? At least, if one says that they are valuable in themselves, and not because of the potential happiness they bring. This position faces the same problems as considering happiness the ultimate value: there is no reason to place more value in one's own pleasure than in that of others, and pursuing riches would most definitely not be the best way to bring pleasure to humanity... or oneself for that matter. Even a heroin addiction would probably do a better job at that.

One way to giving value to the pursuit still remains open, namely that of social approval. There is no doubt as to whether the pursuit of riches brings social approval. It does. But what makes social approval valuable? Most certainly not rationality... after all, social approval is about as random as things can get - just look at socially accepted fashion, beauty, convictions, ideals etc. over the years.
Social approval only gets it's value from one place, namely our "herd instinct". Just like wolves strive to become the leader of the pack, chimps strive to rise in group hierarchy, lions strive to become the alpha animal... humans strive to rise on the social ladder. Not a rational decision, but an instinctive, animalistic one.
And just how meaningful is this? Well, it depends. Ofcourse, for the dog becoming the leader of the pack it's perhaps the most important thing in his life. To us, humans, the dog becoming the leader of his pack is irrelevant. To us, humans, the dog is but a dog, an irrational animal, acting purely on instinct, leading an unimportant life, which doesn't mean a thing when looking at the big picture.


To this you would undoubtedly reply with something about meaning and values being subjective, so here's a small pre-emptive strike :
If values and meaning are subjective, you will have to accept that objectively speaking, your views are as valid as those of a random neonazi skinhead, that the lifestyle of a crackwhore is just as meaningful as the lifestyle of Gandhi, that any discussion about values or morals is impossible and that child rapists are on the same moral level as you are.

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Libertine

Working on a novel about the dichotomy between freedom and social/psychological ties, the effect of the certainty of death on the choice between those, and how those things are related to different types of satisfaction in life.

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12clicks

Nature demands the best rise to the top. its not for everyone.

stop making things up. when asked, most kids do NOT want to be popstars, actors, or models.

there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the alpha wolf.

This is a nice liberal idea but its false.
Society (the group I belong to) has decided as a whole what we value and what we don't. We value success. If you don't, no one is keeping you from opting out.

No, wrong again. *moral* and *success* are not linked except by society's losers in their attempt to explain why success is bad.

says you.
when you're on the outside looking in, you can only guess as to why we accept people as role models.

I love liberals. always telling others how much they should have and what is unnecessary.

enjoyment of life, opportunities to learn, to travel, to give your children a head start to succeeding themselves, good schools for them, the list goes on and on.
communism failed for a reason.

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broke

So....



******s blame the white man for keeping them down.



Or did we establish something new that I missed?











Jesse Jackson does more harm to blacks that any white man could do.

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Perfect Gonzo

ADL Colin

This is simple. My values are the best - even better than yours.

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Libertine

12clicks, your style of quoting is rather annoying to quote. Nonetheless, I'll reply.

Nature is pretty much irrelevant in terms of values. Natural has nothing to do with valuable or right. If it did, eating with a fork would be wrong, for instance.

Because most realize that their chances of becoming one are virtually non-existent. Ask a kid if he or she would want to become one, and you'll see that most will answer yes. ()

There's nothing right with it either.
However, if it gets in the way of a fulfilling life, there IS something very wrong with it.

So you're saying social pressure doesn't exist? In that case, are you the magical man from happy land who lives in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane?

So, are you saying that the majority of people do not consider working hard, ambition, discipline, perseverence good? Or are you saying that those things are not linked to success?

So you refuse to believe that children accept people as rolemodels because they see them 24/7 on tv, billboards, hear them on the radio, get their figurines with the happy meals at McDonalds, encounter large articles about them in every single children's or teen magazine in existence, but instead choose their role models by random? Once again, are you the magical man from happy land living on Lollipop Lane?

I said nothing about "should". As for unnecessary... if you wouldn't die without something, it by definition is unnecessary for life.

Did you just admit that children with rich parents get a head start to succeeding? I think you just contradicted half the posts you made on this board

As for your list... those things don't require you to be rich. Really, they don't. Loving parents, a good upbringing, friends, libraries, scholarships and perseverence go a long way.

As for communism failing for a reason... indeed it did. The reason however isn't that you need to be rich to lead a happy life.

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12clicks

true
False. one would be forced to admit nothing.
Life is not objective.
only if you play along with your false ideas from above.

Happyness for humanity is not my goal.

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Libertine

Ah, so you go for complete subjectivity. Ofcourse, complete subjectivity is irrational (or maybe you have a reason to assume that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, whatever the subject may be?), is relatively meaningless (we can't share our thoughts, ideas, etc with others, none are really better than the others, and thus values only have an extremely limited meaning, both in time and range), and very animalistic (rationality is what sets humans apart from animals, so if you choose an irrational basis for your values, you go for instinctive perception).

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JDog

Cool, I could start saving my money now that the econ is up!

jDoG

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broke

What are we talking about here?

I forgot.



I am all for the 'success' of the 30 year 'War on Poverty'.

I even send extra tax dollars because it worked so well in the past.

You all should too.

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Perfect Gonzo

Libertine

Actually, one would. You admitted that happiness is intrinsically valuable. Now, do you admit that others also have the ability to feel happiness?
If yes, since you yourself admitted happiness is intrinsically valuable, theirs is valuable as well.
Now, please give a reason why their happiness is less valuable than yours?


Btw, how did you get the idea that life is not objective?
And why, if you consider that truth is objective while bias is subjective, should we choose bias over truth in your opinion?

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hyatla

Jobless growth. Means nothing.

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12clicks

true but at least you know I'm reading ALL of your post.

ahh, but if nature is irrelevant to you, your values are irrelevent to others. More so considering your values conflict with those of society (as stated in earlier posts in this thread) my argument for nature has a basis, your argument for YOUR brand of values has only you.


says you. of course, backing it up with proof will be impossible.

but you see, it doesn't! it often gets in the way of the unfulfilled life of the under achiever but I'm not concerned about that.
it does not get in the way of the alfa wolf or his family.

the pressure to succeed always exists. this is not a social pressure. you're wrong.
If you lived alone in the world there would be no society to pressure you but you would still be pressured to succeed (survive)
does this help your argument?



Are you saying these are the things you find wrong with society?
good luck.
of course they are, do you disparrage them because you want a utopia where people will give you what you refuse to work for?

Not at all. Do you not have children or have you just done a poor job raising them? I shape my children's environment and they choose the role models my environment shapes them to choose.
once again, having no logic, you fall back on lollipops.


only a fool stops producing when he reaches only what is necessary.

A head start is far different then your clap trap about a silver spoon. The aim of every parent is to give their children a head start.

so be poor, no one is stopping you. It's your wish to stop people from being rich thats assinine.

"rich" is a product of success. its ok that you have no desire to succeed, just don't expect to be applauded for it.

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12clicks

It isn't. However, I work for my happiness. If they choose not to, they are entitled to whatever is left. nothing more.


Because any man who doesn't have a bias to himself and his family is a fool.

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ADL Colin

Tell me, Punkworld. What set of values is the best? For whom?

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Libertine

Your argument has a basis, yes, one that is commonly known as the "naturalistic fallacy". I hardly think a logical fallacy is a good basis for an argument, then again, conservatives have always liked them.
And how exactly does it cause my values to be irrelevant to others? Most of the people I know, know what the naturalistic fallacy is, and know why nature can not be used as a basis for values. Not everyone shares your conservative love for logical fallacies...

The only argument for it being right would be your naturalistic fallacy. Since that's a logical fallacy, it doesn't hold.
Ofcourse, I realize you consider trees having green leaves morally right, but the rest of us consider it amoral.

Ofcourse pursuing riches never gets in the way of life... people spending too much time at their work to enjoy life and - for instance - spend time with their children is something that never, ever happens. Right?

There is a big gap between "surviving" and being what society considers "succesful".
If you believe there is no social pressure, you are either very naive or very stupid. You think highschool girls want to be cheerleaders just because they like cheerleading? You think the suicide percentage among gay men is much higher than it is among straight men because of chemical inbalances?

Ofcourse, people want to do what they do well. However, what they do is largely determined by social pressure.

You dodged the point quite nicely, ripping things entirely out of context.
Recap:

Now, please answer this: do you still say moral and success are not linked?

So you keep your kids out of school, and away from all their peers? That hardly seems healthy...

Interesting choice of words. Why do you consider production so important? Why isn't spending time with your family more important, or doing the things in life that you enjoy? Why does choosing to do that make one a fool?

So, the silver spoon doesn't give a head start that is of any real influence? Make up your mind already... is the head start important for children or not? If not, why do your children need it

Assuming you entirely evaded the point, I take it you have no other reasons why being rich would be important?
As for wanting to stop people from being rich... where exactly did I say I wanted to do that? Be rich, be poor, I don't care, that's your business. I have more money than I need, I just refuse to let the pursuit of it get in the way of the things I value most in life.

No it isn't. Rich is a measure of success in business, but it isn't in many other fields. Contrary to what you seem to believe, the world doesn't revolve around money for everyone.

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Libertine

Depends on what kind of values you are talking about.

For society, I think something where people are given as much freedom as possible to decide for themselves would work best.

For individuals, I think whatever brings the greatest amount of fulfillment and happiness for them would be best.

From an aesthetic point of view, I think whatever stimulates authenticity and originality works best.

etc.

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ADL Colin

That's not subjective? Why bother at all with the "I think" line then if what you are expressing is not subjective but a universal truth? Why is it that the people who believe that value systems are not subjective don't agree on which ones are good?

On a more specific note, what about individuals who are most happy competing in the social pecking order?

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Libertine

Who said anything about this being the universal truth? This is my view based on deliberation on the different variables in the equation. However, sadly, I am not omniscient

About those individuals: freedom does not take away one's possibility to take part in communities.

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ADL Colin

YOUR view? Subjective.

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