Why do you think TGP is killing the industry? - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 04-26-2004, 01:01 AM

TGP's suck.

AMADude · 04-26-2004, 01:01 AM

150 TGP's

AWW - Kevin · 04-26-2004, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bringer

hardly crying bro, i run a couple of TGP's myself and they are and will be part of the biz for a long time.
IMO we are giving away too much content for free, that does not mean tgp's are all bad and that without tgp's all our problems will be solved.

the Shemp · 04-26-2004, 01:02 AM

The sole purpose of my TGP is to make me money, not the galley submitters. I just use all those free galleries to get surfers, so i can sell advertising and traffic. Thats how it works guys, get over it....

bringer · 04-26-2004, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AWW - Kevin
hardly crying bro, i run a couple of TGP's myself and they are and will be part of the biz for a long time.
IMO we are giving away too much content for free, that does not mean tgp's are all bad and that without tgp's all our problems will be solved.

i know, i just found that pic and posted it in the first place i found

quiet · 04-26-2004, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlienQ

TGP's suck.

cheers to hardcore watermarking

KCat · 04-26-2004, 01:08 AM

It's not TGPs, it's all the "WEBMASTERS CLICK HERE & MAKE $$$$" links.

Surfers with credit cards are turning into webmasters.

AWW - Kevin · 04-26-2004, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bringer
i know, i just found that pic and posted it in the first place i found

It's all good

for those who complain about tgp's being all bad...TGP's / free porn is what brings most porn surfers to the internet in the first place. If there was no free porn (tgp's) they'd all be buying penthouse magazines and hiring xxx movies at the local video shop.

the Shemp · 04-26-2004, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KCat
It's not TGPs, it's all the "WEBMASTERS CLICK HERE & MAKE $$$$" links.

Surfers with credit cards are turning into webmasters.

isn't that the truth ....

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 04-26-2004, 01:21 AM

Surfers with credit cards are turning into webmasters.

Yeah no kiddin goto agree wit dat.

Kappy · 04-26-2004, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AWW - Kevin
It's all good

for those who complain about tgp's being all bad...TGP's / free porn is what brings most porn surfers to the internet in the first place. If there was no free porn (tgp's) they'd all be buying penthouse magazines and hiring xxx movies at the local video shop.

I doubt anybody here (and in other threads about this topic) has anything against tgp's itself, it's the amount of free porn (per gallery) that is given away. Free porn will be here forever and this is ok, free samples are important for every business. But the amount of free porn which is easily available today isn't doing a good thing to this business.

teomaxxx · 04-26-2004, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by papichulo
Nice troll attempt, Sleazy.

What's the problem, didn't get enough attention as a kid so you get it by trolling the boards for compliments?

Porn Mickey · 04-26-2004, 05:06 AM

People are still buying porn online searching our TGP sites, but look long and ask yourself would you pay 10, 20 or 30 bucks a month to look at content when you see what is for free?

KraZ · 04-26-2004, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Latona
I don't think it is killing the industry. P2P file sharing is a bigger threat. People go to TGPs to watch commercials. If they want more they have to buy. What's wrong with that?

Exactly .... P2P and free servers (don't ask me, I won't tell you) allow users to leech all day long without paying a dime.

blazin · 04-26-2004, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KCat
It's not TGPs, it's all the "WEBMASTERS CLICK HERE & MAKE $$$$" links.

Surfers with credit cards are turning into webmasters.

99% of all webmasters probably started as surfers

Basic_man · 04-26-2004, 07:56 AM

It give too much free porn!

Matt 26z · 04-26-2004, 11:31 AM

I know someone who isn't a webmaster, but he signs up as an affiliate everywhere to get the free promo content. He puts in fake info and a site that isn't his. He figured it out on his own too.

I wonder how widespread that is?

Maybe programs should make it a policy that your email be on the same domain your site is. Then verify the site is adult. That would stop non-webmasters from getting in.

SleazyDream · 04-26-2004, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blazin
99% of all webmasters probably started as surfers

duuuuuu

Strife · 04-26-2004, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by the Shemp
The sole purpose of my TGP is to make me money, not the galley submitters. I just use all those free galleries to get surfers, so i can sell advertising and traffic. Thats how it works guys, get over it....

Agreed

TheSwed · 04-26-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AWW - Kevin
It's all good

for those who complain about tgp's being all bad...TGP's / free porn is what brings most porn surfers to the internet in the first place. If there was no free porn (tgp's) they'd all be buying penthouse magazines and hiring xxx movies at the local video shop.

agree

wargames · 04-26-2004, 12:32 PM

tgp's are not killing the industry. As with every business if you dont evolve with the customer your basically dead in the water.

LOVE · 04-26-2004, 02:18 PM

TGP hit down ratio.
More ADS on TGP.
You see TV channels? TGP should have more than new advertising!

As on radio and TV - INTERRUPTION of the ETHER and display ONLY ADVERTISING!

bret · 04-26-2004, 03:07 PM

you need more then two hands to point the finger at what is "killing the industry"

irresponsable sponsors might have a couple fingers in their direction though.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 04-26-2004, 03:30 PM

TGP's were bolstered as major sponsor programs abandoned giving away free content on there tours.

Thus TGP's really had a place in the industry.
I good tour has free content already and if your smart you update that tour often to show traffic that the site is "Always new".

The engineering in tours has changed to contain content alot lately, I see it more and more anyways.

In hindsite ya can go back to circa 1995 and recall Intertain Inc, and Intergal they had huge tours complete with photos and video clips.
Later Danni's kicked in with a portal concept tour for her traffic.
The above 3 were goliaths and 1 still stands with the same concept and celebrates extraordinary success.

That art has been lost under the assumption that it is better to throw content to webmasters for use on TGP's and free sites.

How it became a staple standard in the marketing arsonal of affiliate systems I really do not know as the content gets blown out and chewed down at far faster rates.
Thus it effectively breaks down the value of the content's shelflife and consequencely over all value.

I personally do not think TGP's are a necessity in advertising.

4Pics · 04-26-2004, 03:38 PM

tgps rule

Snake Doctor · 04-26-2004, 03:47 PM

Those of you who think we would all make more money if there were no TGP's need to think again.
YOU wouldn't make more money, but the search engines would make a fuck of a lot more money.

If there were no TGP's or other sources of free content then the freeloaders wouldn't have anywhere to jerk off, I'll grant you that.

But there are still plenty of buyers on the web, and ALOT of them surf TGP's on a regular basis. If there were no free sites for them to bookmark then they'd go looking through the search engines to find a paysite to join, which makes the search engine money, not YOU.

If you see a TGP that gives away 60 seconds of free video or 15-20 thumbnailed pictures as competition to your paysite, then your paysite must really suck.

My

Theo · 04-26-2004, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex From San Diego
You are correct Soul. Whether you pay for a listing or try to submit, if your gallery "Looks like an advertisement" or "not enough content" you get denied. I started in this biz doing galleries and did quite well but over the years my money is in PPC and SE listings. I'll do 10 times the joins per day as any top notch tgp submitter does.

What it boils down to is, how you e*x*e*c*u*t*e you your business model. Free porn is here to stay....If you don't adapt, you just might be passed on by never to catch up.

yes, exactly. That's obvious by rules like "all pics must be in centered table" and so on. I think many tgp webmasters still haven't understood how their traffic works and if could, they would only list galleries with no ads at all.

bret · 04-26-2004, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenny2
... But there are still plenty of buyers on the web, and ALOT of them surf TGP's on a regular basis. ...

My

and you know this how?

samuel · 04-26-2004, 04:02 PM

I don't think tgps are killing the bizz, if the bizz is dying it is because now we have more to offer and some people doesn't know how to sell it instead of burn this game...

there are space for everyone, just a little of respect and clear rules before to start.

it's my opinion

samuel

Snake Doctor · 04-26-2004, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bret
and you know this how?

I know this by the 800-1000+ signups a month I generate off of pure TGP traffic. (All galleries, I don't own a TGP)

I also know what I do is a pittance compared to alot of gallery guys and TGP owners.

<IMX> · 04-26-2004, 04:09 PM

I don't think all the tgp webmasters understand what they are doing, tgp just happens to be the easiest entry point into adult webmastering.

However, there are some very high-level tgp guys, so the ratio of "elite" to novice is very low in tgp, so everybody complains about the tgp guys who don't have a clue...and just think they are out there to give away as much free porn as possible.

Quotealex · 04-26-2004, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by the Shemp
The sole purpose of my TGP is to make me money, not the galley submitters. I just use all those free galleries to get surfers, so i can sell advertising and traffic. Thats how it works guys, get over it....

the Shemp speaks the thruth.

Za Ha · 04-26-2004, 04:36 PM

Done right, TGPS are gold.

P2P is killing this biz.

Marauder · 04-27-2004, 03:16 AM

Why not look at the situation from this point:
TGPs exist in not a fantasy world. They follow the same rules as any other aspect of this business. So it's all about profit and expences.
Will it be reasonable to post in TGPs if your profit does not cover bandwith costs or if you have more profitable way to go? And how long TGPs will exist without fresh galleries every day? Since we do not see anything like TGP dieing currently it tells of one thing only: TGP posting is profitable.
Not for everyone of course - nobody can give any kind of guarantee that your efforts will be repaid. That's the matter of content quality and selection as well as your marketing talents.
TGPs were inevitable because of growing competition and they play their role in business - otherwise they just would not appear. So they are neither good nor bad themselve - they appeared by objective reasons and only objective reasons can get them disappeared or change business model. No whinings or complaints can help. We just have to live with that if we want to stay in business.

Just because of that I'd not say TGPs are killing the biz. Let's remember how many programs were running in 97-99 and compare with current numbers. Let's consider most of later surfers are not from US but they surf our sites as well. Let's consider newer chargeback rules and scrubbing followed by them. So... do you still insist that TGPs are the main reason of ratios go down?

bret · 04-27-2004, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenny2
I know this by the 800-1000+ signups a month I generate off of pure TGP traffic. (All galleries, I don't own a TGP)

I also know what I do is a pittance compared to alot of gallery guys and TGP owners.

how does that prove anything you said.

"and ALOT of them surf TGP's on a regular basis"

so i ask again, you know this how?

Snake Doctor · 04-27-2004, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bret
how does that prove anything you said.

"and ALOT of them surf TGP's on a regular basis"

so i ask again, you know this how?

Well one could reasonably conclude that if thousands of signups per day are generated from TGP traffic that there are alot of buyers surfing TGP's.

polish_aristocrat · 05-05-2005, 11:51 AM

good thread

Snake Doctor · 05-05-2005, 12:06 PM

Wow this is an oldie but goodie

BlackCrayon · 05-05-2005, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by impfest

The Only Reason
Tgp's may be Dragging Down the industry Is The Dumb Fucks That Post All Thier Best Pics On A Gallery

If Everyone Would Post Galleries Where The model Strips For the 1st 10 Pics Then Finally Shows All At The Last 5-10 Pics
Everything Would Be Fine

Every Day I See Dumb Fucks Posting The Entire Series Of Pics Showing All.

You Have To Give The Surfer A Reason To Join And See The Rest Of The set The Pics Where the model Shows all Ect.

Many Many Times I Have Seen Dumb Assed Webmasters
Post Thier Whole Members Area Free To Tgp's!

ideally but i've had my galleries rejected for not enough nudity. i think gallery submitters want to give away less but the tgp owners keep demanding more and more of a gallery. i say this only having done galleries for a few months, the return wasn't worth it for me.

Pleasurepays · 05-05-2005, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

TGP's aren't killing the industry.

Free porn (aka: advertising samples) is not killing the industry.

In fact, nothing is "killing" the industry. The porn industry will always be around.

Nothing can kill it. Wankers will always wank.

(and whiners will always find something to whine about)

it can't be summed up any better than this!

Rinaldo · 05-05-2005, 12:22 PM

wow old old old

Tempest · 05-05-2005, 12:49 PM

It's been a year since this post.. Is TGP dead yet???

seeric · 05-05-2005, 12:53 PM

you've opened pandoras box.

axelcat · 05-05-2005, 12:56 PM

very good thread

Thurbs · 05-05-2005, 03:31 PM

good read. tgps make money, some ppl make it, others strive too. seems like every business model, every industry.

wtfent · 05-05-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

yet i get 100's of signups a day... oddd

Well what if it was a 1,000 instead?

Huggles · 05-05-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pornwolf

2 years ago this TGP killing the business argument was a good one. Now, with broadband surfers making up such a large part of the signups, TGP's are as Rick said 'Just a commercial.' Picture galleries are no more than big ads now.

As long as no one regularly starts posting videos longer than 20 seconds we will be ok. Anyone that does that should be shot. I know a lot of big MGP owners that won't allow large movies to be added to their pool. Hopefully everyone else is on the same page with this.

Although, ratios would be incredible with no free porn out there. I don't think anyone could argue that.

Elephant list and such want a minimum of 4 movies.

4 x 20 seconds each....

Soon, if I have to compete with more submitters, I will raise it to 4 x 30 seconds each, 2.2 or so megs per file. Free!

Hey, it's the TGPs asking the submitters for more now!

05-05-2005, 03:59 PM

quote by A1R3K
you've opened pandoras box.
unquote by A1R3K

AND YEP he is right that should not be opened !

Donny · 05-05-2005, 04:03 PM

More than a year later and sleazy's still killing the business.

TexasDreams · 05-05-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleazyDream

can i have some extra ketchup for my fries please?

04-26-2004, 01:01 AM	#151
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	TGP's suck. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

04-26-2004, 01:01 AM	#152
AMADude Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 3,875	150 TGP's __________________ No sig, just here to fuck around.

04-26-2004, 01:02 AM	#154
the Shemp congrats to the winners Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Echo Beach Posts: 10,891	The sole purpose of my TGP is to make me money, not the galley submitters. I just use all those free galleries to get surfers, so i can sell advertising and traffic. Thats how it works guys, get over it.... __________________ i use Vacares...so should you Submit your picture galleries to my site...Outlaw TGP

04-26-2004, 01:08 AM	#157
KCat Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: PNW Posts: 2,204	It's not TGPs, it's all the "WEBMASTERS CLICK HERE & MAKE $$$$" links. Surfers with credit cards are turning into webmasters. __________________ ~ 300+ FHGs, 100,000 pics to use plus a rockin' Video of the Day download! ~

04-26-2004, 01:21 AM	#160
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	Surfers with credit cards are turning into webmasters. Yeah no kiddin goto agree wit dat. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

04-26-2004, 05:06 AM	#163
Porn Mickey we all love porn Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Nowhere Posts: 2,840	People are still buying porn online searching our TGP sites, but look long and ask yourself would you pay 10, 20 or 30 bucks a month to look at content when you see what is for free? __________________ $150 SignUp Bonus

04-26-2004, 07:56 AM	#166
Basic_man Programming King Pin Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Montreal Posts: 27,360	It give too much free porn! __________________ UUGallery Builder - automated photo/video gallery plugin for Wordpress! Stop looking! Checkout Naked Hosting, online since 1999 !

04-26-2004, 11:31 AM	#167
Matt 26z So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: ¤ª"˜¨๑۩۞۩๑¨˜"ª¤ Posts: 18,481	I know someone who isn't a webmaster, but he signs up as an affiliate everywhere to get the free promo content. He puts in fake info and a site that isn't his. He figured it out on his own too. I wonder how widespread that is? Maybe programs should make it a policy that your email be on the same domain your site is. Then verify the site is adult. That would stop non-webmasters from getting in.

04-26-2004, 12:32 PM	#171
wargames Kliris Join Date: May 2003 Location: ca Posts: 10,423	tgp's are not killing the industry. As with every business if you dont evolve with the customer your basically dead in the water. __________________ ICQ 212-115-582 Email Steve at Vas Media Group .com

04-26-2004, 02:18 PM	#172
LOVE Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 322	TGP hit down ratio. More ADS on TGP. You see TV channels? TGP should have more than new advertising! As on radio and TV - INTERRUPTION of the ETHER and display ONLY ADVERTISING!

04-26-2004, 03:07 PM	#173
bret Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: detroit Posts: 766	you need more then two hands to point the finger at what is "killing the industry" irresponsable sponsors might have a couple fingers in their direction though.

04-26-2004, 03:30 PM	#174
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	TGP's were bolstered as major sponsor programs abandoned giving away free content on there tours. Thus TGP's really had a place in the industry. I good tour has free content already and if your smart you update that tour often to show traffic that the site is "Always new". The engineering in tours has changed to contain content alot lately, I see it more and more anyways. In hindsite ya can go back to circa 1995 and recall Intertain Inc, and Intergal they had huge tours complete with photos and video clips. Later Danni's kicked in with a portal concept tour for her traffic. The above 3 were goliaths and 1 still stands with the same concept and celebrates extraordinary success. That art has been lost under the assumption that it is better to throw content to webmasters for use on TGP's and free sites. How it became a staple standard in the marketing arsonal of affiliate systems I really do not know as the content gets blown out and chewed down at far faster rates. Thus it effectively breaks down the value of the content's shelflife and consequencely over all value. I personally do not think TGP's are a necessity in advertising. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

04-26-2004, 03:38 PM	#175
4Pics Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 7,952	tgps rule

04-26-2004, 03:47 PM	#176
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	Those of you who think we would all make more money if there were no TGP's need to think again. YOU wouldn't make more money, but the search engines would make a fuck of a lot more money. If there were no TGP's or other sources of free content then the freeloaders wouldn't have anywhere to jerk off, I'll grant you that. But there are still plenty of buyers on the web, and ALOT of them surf TGP's on a regular basis. If there were no free sites for them to bookmark then they'd go looking through the search engines to find a paysite to join, which makes the search engine money, not YOU. If you see a TGP that gives away 60 seconds of free video or 15-20 thumbnailed pictures as competition to your paysite, then your paysite must really suck. My __________________ sig too big

04-26-2004, 04:02 PM	#179
samuel Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: email address Posts: 1,986	I don't think tgps are killing the bizz, if the bizz is dying it is because now we have more to offer and some people doesn't know how to sell it instead of burn this game... there are space for everyone, just a little of respect and clear rules before to start. it's my opinion samuel

04-26-2004, 04:09 PM	#181
<IMX> Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 2,728	I don't think all the tgp webmasters understand what they are doing, tgp just happens to be the easiest entry point into adult webmastering. However, there are some very high-level tgp guys, so the ratio of "elite" to novice is very low in tgp, so everybody complains about the tgp guys who don't have a clue...and just think they are out there to give away as much free porn as possible. __________________ $$$ Check out NICHE PAY the leader of Micro Niche Sites! They offer $1 Trials! $$$ $$$ Check out 10 FREE TRIAL SALES equals 1 FREE LAP TOP ! $$$

04-26-2004, 04:36 PM	#183
Za Ha Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Still lost Posts: 5,112	Done right, TGPS are gold. P2P is killing this biz.

04-27-2004, 03:16 AM	#184
Marauder Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 24	Why not look at the situation from this point: TGPs exist in not a fantasy world. They follow the same rules as any other aspect of this business. So it's all about profit and expences. Will it be reasonable to post in TGPs if your profit does not cover bandwith costs or if you have more profitable way to go? And how long TGPs will exist without fresh galleries every day? Since we do not see anything like TGP dieing currently it tells of one thing only: TGP posting is profitable. Not for everyone of course - nobody can give any kind of guarantee that your efforts will be repaid. That's the matter of content quality and selection as well as your marketing talents. TGPs were inevitable because of growing competition and they play their role in business - otherwise they just would not appear. So they are neither good nor bad themselve - they appeared by objective reasons and only objective reasons can get them disappeared or change business model. No whinings or complaints can help. We just have to live with that if we want to stay in business. Just because of that I'd not say TGPs are killing the biz. Let's remember how many programs were running in 97-99 and compare with current numbers. Let's consider most of later surfers are not from US but they surf our sites as well. Let's consider newer chargeback rules and scrubbing followed by them. So... do you still insist that TGPs are the main reason of ratios go down? __________________ AdultMasterCash revenue program

05-05-2005, 11:51 AM	#187
polish_aristocrat Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 40,377	good thread __________________ I don't use ICQ anymore.

05-05-2005, 12:06 PM	#188
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	Wow this is an oldie but goodie __________________ sig too big

05-05-2005, 12:22 PM	#191
Rinaldo Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 5,086	wow old old old

05-05-2005, 12:49 PM	#192
Tempest Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Location: West Coast, Canada. Posts: 10,217	It's been a year since this post.. Is TGP dead yet???

05-05-2005, 12:53 PM	#193
seeric .......... Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: .......... Posts: 41,917	you've opened pandoras box.

05-05-2005, 12:56 PM	#194
axelcat Adult Locals Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: West Coast Posts: 25,450	very good thread

05-05-2005, 03:31 PM	#195
Thurbs The Thrilla in Manila Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Thurbs' Lagoon, Christmas Island Posts: 4,785	good read. tgps make money, some ppl make it, others strive too. seems like every business model, every industry.

05-05-2005, 03:59 PM	#198
ThumbLord Guest Posts: n/a	quote by A1R3K you've opened pandoras box. unquote by A1R3K AND YEP he is right that should not be opened !

05-05-2005, 04:03 PM	#199
Donny As you wish... Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 13,754	More than a year later and sleazy's still killing the business.