Amputate Your Head

There's an awful lot of finger-pointing, name calling, and universal condemnation going on here. No, I'm not talking about muslims or arabs or any of them. I'm talking about YOU AND ME. The people on this board.

When you decide that a person is this or that, take into account BEFORE you speak, that people here are from many different viewpoints. Some you may not understand.

Some of us are war veterans. Some come from a long line of family military history. Some are mama's boys that have rarely left their bedroom and their entire perspective is gained from CNN. And there are many others. I will speak only from my perspective.

For those of you who have no idea what it means to be a soldier, it's not a happy little dream world of college SATs and beer bongs. It makes NO difference what reason someone may have enlisted, (college credit, mad at mom & dad...) the bottom line is they are PAID KILLERS. And if you think they are anything less, then you probably also think Barney is a real dinosaur. Military personnel are trained to kill. Period. They live and breathe it. If you think we send soldiers off to foreign lands to go TALK to our enemies... better wake up.

As a part of this training and lifestyle, a certain mindset MUST be in place. That mindset is one of dark humor and deadly seriousness. Dark humor is the mindset that every police officer, fireman, soldier, FBI Agent, etc... MUST have in order to do their job.

I realize that alot of you may not understand this. But DO NOT mistake this for racism. Racism is an ugly thing, and no one will argue that except racists. I also understand that alot of you may still be very wet behind the ears and have snot still running from your noses. That's fine. But it's hard for you to comment on things you cannot understand. And branding someone a racist because it's the first word you could come up with, only thing you know how to do, or simply don't understand basic facts of life is wrong and damaging.

Viewpoint DOES matter.

Gary

Barney is not a real dinosaur?

JakeR

gary needs to grow up.

Gary

JakeR = Barney???

Sjayne

I understand what you are saying and I am not talking about people such as yourself. I am talking about those that take advantage of people like you expressing their viewpoints to make what are racist comments.

Major difference betwen those that are upset and angry that are essentially venting and those that use blatant racial slurs (often without even knowing what they mean) and those those that even entertain thoughts of rounding up ALL (and the post said all..not some..not the guilty...not those that aren't americans..it said ALL) arabs and killing them.

Don't think I am calling you all racists. I am not. I am calling people that made those comments racists.

Amputate Your Head

I think he used to be, but had a Pinnochio reversal.

Amputate Your Head

While we're on the subject here, let me clarify a few more things:

I don't find a damn thing wrong with the term "Ragheads". When we were in Desert Storm, we ALL called them ragheads. Are you going to now tell me that the entire US military is an army of racists? I didn't think so. They wear rags on their heads. What the hell is racist about that? Something on their fucking heads has nothing to do with their race.

If we follow your logic, then I could very well call YOU a racist for labeling me a "biker" simply because I ride a Harley. Starting to sound ridiculous? It should.

I know alot of you are just dying to equate "raghead" with terms like "******" and "spic", but those are universally recognized racial slurs. Any arguments here? I also understand that alot of people hang on every word just waiting to scream "RACIST!" because I suppose it makes you feel superior or something... you're BETTER than that and you need to shout it to the world.

Well I don't. I have no need to shout it from the mountain top. I'm secure with myself and my position on things as well as my beliefs. I DON'T have to like everyone. I DON'T have to take in Arab children and provide them with room and board to PROVE I'm not a racist.

By the way, racism had ZERO to do with the fact that OJ murdered two people.

Gary

I agree, in fact i'm kicking some arab children out of my house as i type this. Let them go mooch off someone else.

Bushman

Amputate,

I don't agree with you viewpoints. I am in the military now, and have been for 16 years. Calling someone a rag head is not a normal term to be thrown around in the armed forces. Although I have heard it thrown around, it is something that a military member can get into a world shit for. Remember the phrase "Punishable by the UCMJ"? Just because you got away with it while you were in doesn't make it right.

Many friends of mine practice Islam and come from the Arab nations. No need to use terms loosley. We are supposed to be fighting the common enemy, which is in fact the terrorist, not each other, or our allies.

So I believe your right about the name calling and finger pointing, it needs to cease immediately. Lets concentrate on expressing our opinions about the bastards that did it in the first place.

Amputate Your Head

Agreed Bushman, but again, context. No one I was in with ever used those terms intended as a racial slur. Merely enemy reference. We called them alot of things. Iraqis, nomads, assholes, losers, and idiots as well as many more. I'm not advocating going to the local mall and pointing at people yelling "Raghead!". Certainly if you address your commander as "raghead" you will surely be punished. I'm saying when it's used in the right context, I don't find it inappropriate. I can make virtually ANY word sound ugly if I want to bad enough.

You're welcome to disagree with that, and I'm not trying to change your mind. It's just my point of view.

Amputate Your Head

Tell me this:

When black gang members or even kids hangin' out on the corner, call their friends "******"... as in "Yo nigga, what's up?" Is this then also racist? It's a racist word so it must be right?

It's all about context.

Amputate Your Head

If this is true, then no one may ever be allowed to use any form of descriptive or colorful word ever again.

And Jeff Foxworthy must be brought down because his entire act is based on Rednecks.

Amputate Your Head

This ultimately leads us to the point that for no matter what situation we are talking about, we must identify every single person as "The individual or individuals allegedly responsible for performing, committing, or otherwise contributing to (input situation here)

Everyone. In every single sentence and reference at any time.

They're not "bank robbers", because they may actually rob other places too and take extreme offense to this.

I'm not "tattooed", I'm "voluntarily alternatively pigmented" and you better get it right or I will cry.

The list goes on. Isn't it time we drop the extreme politically correct shit already? Not every word or comment is derogatory or based on racism. There actually is a difference.

rhizome

You're doing a lot of justifying, aren't you Amputate? And I'm sure according to your crackpot psychology, only racists are so adament in justifying their non-racism.

Amputate Your Head

I'm justifying anything, except common sense. By the way, doesn't your country have a sports team called the "Canuuks"?

Well not anymore. I'm too offended. Change it.

Sjayne

See in my view if what you are saying is being taken by so many people in a way that you (you being a general term not pointing at one person) don't intend it then you must step back and realise that you are saying it wrong.

You may not be encouraging people to attack people (verbally) in the streets but you are giving other people far too much credit for their intellegence. What if a kid over hears you calling people ragheads? They will pick that up and they will use it. Congrats you have just taught a kid to single out people because of their race.

Your reference to black people and even Jeff Foxworthy are off track. Firstly these are people from within that minority reclaiming hateful terms. Its like you being able to make fun of your brother but if the kid down the street does it you are going to beat the crap out of them. I hate hearing black kids use those words because I know how painful those words are when they come out of the wrong mouth.

The phrases 'raghead' or 'dot head' show ignorance to that persons religion and the reason they wear turbans, a headscarf or in the case of the women a hajab head covering. You know those 'dot' well they are worn by Hindus. Want to find out about WHY they wear them go to this url: http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/women/bindi.htm

Again, no excused for being ignorant..all the answers to such mysteries are but a search engine away.

We don't have to agree with the reason they wear these things but just because they do doesn't make them part of the terrorist groups.

I grew up in Amish areas and maybe that did me good because I was surrounded by people in 'strange clothing'. I was also taught not to point and stare and make ignorant comments.

If you use a term to single out a racial group based on something superficial it is a racial if not racist term. You may not mean it that way but it is.

Sjayne

How about - the evil people that did this? Evil regardless of what country they came from? So how about just 'the terrorists' no need to group in entire races.

Amputate Your Head

Well Sjayne, good points there. But go back to what I said about bikers...

The majority of people in this world view bikers as nothing more than beer guzzling thugs that terrorize innocent people. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Sure there are some... there always is. But just because someone rides a Harley, does not make them a member of the Hells Angels. Yet people make this assumption every day of the week, and no one is complaining about THAT. I wear a black leather jacket with an embroidered eagle on the back. This makes me evil? No. But people still refer to me with the same terms as the guy that robs liquor stores and rides away on a bike.

I've traveled virtually every road in this country. I've literally had people shield their children from me simply because I'm tattooed. I've heard them tell their kids that I'm a freak. I wonder what those parents are teaching THEIR kids.

Do I MIND being called a freak because of my tattoos? No. Why? Because I know they simply do not understand. It's not personal... it's just ignorance. The same applies to the biker reference. I don't care what they say. I KNOW I'm not a thug. And I know they don't know any better.

I also can't be held responsible for the shit people fill their kids heads with. You're right. If people talk about "******s" around their kids all the time, then the kids will too. Some things are not meant for kids to hear. Kids are also not meant to see porn, but most of us don't condemn porn as evil because of that.

If anyone is lost in all this, my point is NOT to defend racism. My point IS that everything needs to be taken in context.

Amputate Your Head

Well, I don't believe in God. By suggesting Evil, you are suggesting Satan and hence, God in one form or another. Labeling them "evil" is not politically correct enough.

Sjayne

The biker point -

Then those people are WRONG and IGNORANT and as we all have been told as a kid two wrongs do not make a right.

And saying those things around kids will take hold just as fast as the N word. And no I won't say that word and don't call me overly PC for not doing so. I was taught never in my life to say it and I never have so I am not going to start now. It like just randomly using homophobic language. You may not be homophobic but the kids don't know that.

And on the evil point. I am not religious either. When I go to the memorial service tomorrow it will be my first time in a church in many may years. I am not going to serve god I am going to pay my respect along with other Americans. So..don't be that pedantic..evil=bad=wrong.

Amputate Your Head

All of this can ultimately be appied to the word "racist" itself.

By labeling me a "racist" (and I'm not saying anyone in particular did, it's just an example) you are also lumping me into a group to which I do not belong. I know I'm not a racist. I could take extreme offense to someone labeling me one. But I won't, because I know it stems from ignorance.

Do I have great love for every person on the planet? No. I do not. Does this make me a racist? Well, if that's your definition, then I guess it does. But remember...

Ignorance is a curable disease.

Amputate Your Head

Good discussion Sjayne.

Amputate Your Head

It's always reassuring to see that there really are people on this board that can discuss things rationally without resorting to pathetic empty threats.

I'd argue with you again anytime Sjayne!

Sjayne

Ditto. I am about to offically be a sociologist and and a political scientist so I suppose this is kind of my thing.

Also..the difference between the person calling someone a racist and the person that is a racist is the following:

A racist groups and judges people based totally on their race, religion, apprearance, etc. They don't actually know anything about the individual. They don't even give them a chance to view their opinions.

A person who is calling someone a racist should be (which doesn't always mean they are doing so) judging what someone has actually said and done. It is based on the actual actions and beliefs of the individual.

See the main difference is that one is seen as an individual and the other is seeing others as groups.

Americans are a nation that so highly values the individual and that should be kept in mind.

Bushman

Here is an example of what I am talking about. My son came up to me one day and said "Waz up my nigga?"

I was a little blown away by this. Then I realized that he got that phrase from the movie Rush Hour. He was only 11 at the time. So I explained to him that this particular colorful but harmless phrase, as him and I see it, could be harmful to others. So the context you use it in is not always the same as how the words are perceived. So the best thing to do is not use them at all. Especially in a public forum. Why stir up feelings of hate by using words that have the capacity to carry a double effect. Pain and comedy.

I don't think anyone here would say in front of a bunch of strangers, to their girl friend/wife, "hey babe lets fuck". Also you wouldn't teach these words in an elementary school. So if we don't want it taught to our kids (our future) then why do we use it so loosely?

Its not a necessary thing to say to get your point across and is still considered a racial slur because it may be offensive to some.



[This message has been edited by Bushman (edited 09-13-2001).]

Amputate Your Head

Sjayne,
No argument there.

But it does bring me back to my main point: If I refer to someone in a discussion about terrorists as "ragheads", I am referring to the terrorists, their armies, and anyone associated with them. Yes, as a group. The same way I referred to the Iraqi Army in Desert Storm as "ragheads" rather than "the opposing forces of Iraqi descent". That is ridiculous. Peole can preach until the end of time about political correctness, but "nicknames" will forever be assigned. It's simply reality.

People have always assigned monikers to other people. It provides some anger ventilation (anger, of course, being referenced based upon the situation example) while simultaneously identifying the subject of conversation. It in no way conveys sentiments of racism. It's all about context.

If I were to use the same terms in a different situation, such as a shopping mall, I very LIKELY would be considered racist. Because it's OUT of context. Should that person in the shopping mall be offended by it? Well, maybe. Sadly, due to language constraints and human nuance, each person ASSUMES different meanings and implications for different things. Very likely that person could be classified as racist, because all intelligent people understand there is a time and place for certain language.

I don't swear around kids because it's not appropriate. NOT because the situation wasn't appropriate, but because as a child they are unable to distinguish the difference. And the same should be applied to "terms of endearment" if you will.



[This message has been edited by Amputate Your Head (edited 09-13-2001).]

Amputate Your Head

As you should be. A child that age cannot possible have the capacity to understand the deep meanings that word conveys.
You're right. They aren't always perceived properly. But someone else's perception of my meaning, in a CLEARLY defined topic of discussion or location/situation is not my problem. If you don't understand the issue at hand (meaning the example discussion in question) then you should remove yourself from it. Not expect other adults to babysit grown adults as if they were children. There are no children here.

I've heard this many times from "supposed" adults.


Of course not. But this is not Disneyland. (I hate to keep using the word 'adults', but it's necessary I'm afraid) Adults express adult things in adult ways. You cannot realistically expect the world to speak in childish words. You might WANT it to, but it will never happen.

If this is true, then the city of Indianapolis needs to be renamed. It is offensive to Native Americans.

Amputate Your Head

Alot of ideas out there expressing sentiments that "those types of words aren't necessary to get your point across"... but they are. For both good and bad reasons alike.

They are emotionally charged words that we use daily to express our point of view. Some are able to use them properly in their appropriate context, and some will pervert and twist them into racial slurs. It's the way of the world.

But to even suggest that "One day the whole world will unite and that type of language will cease to exist and then we can all hold hands and sing We Are The Fucking World" because it's not necessary to express yourself is nothing more than a Utopian pipe dream. It's the way of the world. Depressing? Maybe.

But humans aren't so easily programmed as a computer.