Bush to Congress: Renew Patriot Act

[nofx]

COLUMBUS, Ohio (CNN) -- President Bush on Thursday called on Congress to reauthorize the 16 provisions of the USA Patriot Act that are slated to expire at the end of the year, calling them "practical, important and ... constitutional."

"Congress needs to renew them all and, this time, Congress needs to make the provisions permanent," Bush told an audience of about 150 officers at the Ohio State Highway Patrol Academy in Columbus.

Bush said the act, passed six weeks after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, "closed dangerous gaps in America's law enforcement and intelligence capabilities."

He said that authorities have used the act to bring terrorism charges against 400 people, with more than half of those charges leading to convictions.

Since its passage, "America's law enforcement and intelligence personnel have proved that the Patriot Act works, that it was an important piece of legislation," Bush said.

He credited the act with helping federal, state and local law enforcement authorities "break up terror cells in New York and Oregon and Virginia and in Florida."

He added, "The Patriot Act has accomplished exactly what it was designed to do: it has protected American liberty and saved American lives."

Specifically, the act broke down a "bureaucratic wall" between law enforcement and intelligence that has resulted in better sharing of information, he said.

Further, the act allowed agents to set up "roving wire taps," which let authorities monitor the communications of terrorist suspects who use different cell phones without requiring they first obtain separate authorizations to tap each phone.

And the act allows Internet providers to help law enforcement officials trace threatening e-mails without risking a lawsuit, Bush said.

Bush noted that Congress oversees the application of the act, and he said he would soon name five people to serve on a federal board created by Congress to ensure that Americans' privacy and civil liberties are respected.

"Sen. Dianne Feinstein worked with civil rights groups to monitor the use of the Patriot Act; here's what she said: 'We've scrubbed the area, and I have no reported abuses,'" Bush said.

"Remember that the next time you hear someone make an unfair criticism of this important, good law."

The Democrat from California did indeed make that comment about a year ago, after the American Civil Liberties Union approached her for support in opposing the act, said Howard Gantman, a spokesman for Feinstein.

"We basically said we've very much like to hear about specifics," Gantman said. "The ACLU then, for really over a year, had no specific abuses they could point to. On their behalf, I'd say one of their problems, like us, is we have a helluva time getting information from the Justice Department about what was going on there."

The ACLU, in a posting on its Web site, said the Bush administration and former Attorney General John Ashcroft "essentially refused to describe how it was implementing the law; it left numerous substantial questions unanswered, and classified others without justification.

"In short, not only has the Bush administration undermined judicial oversight on government spying on citizens by pushing the Patriot Act into law, but it is also undermining another crucial check and balance on surveillance powers: accountability to Congress and the public."

[KRL]

Yeh, and they're also going to let frequent fliers get "travelers ID cards".

To get one you just have to get fingerprinted, retinal scan, and a homeland security full background check. The upside is no waiting lines at airports. You just cruise right through.

[StickyGreen]

we got over 3 years left...

[Babagirls]

Originally Posted by StickyGreen

we got over 3 years left...

im counting the days down..

[jollyperv]

I disagree....we may have 11 years left, you know Jeb dickfuck is gonna run in 2008, and you know it will be fixed once again.

[NTSS]

We are fucked!

[Mr.Fiction]

If you don't support expansion of the Patriot Act, you support the terrorists!

Turn yourselves in you traitors.

[Turf]

i dont think Jeb will run right after Bush jr... think they will wait a term and then go for the kill..

[Babagirls]

Originally Posted by jollyperv

I disagree....we may have 11 years left, you know Jeb dickfuck is gonna run in 2008, and you know it will be fixed once again.

thats my BIGGEST fuckin fear!!!!!! theres no way in hell Bush won this past election fair & square (the first one, MAYBE..).

i remember before & during the elections, here in Wisconsin, there were reports of republicans saying that vacant old houses were "active voters", and some how, those empty parking lots or acres of land got up on election day & voted for Bush.

Amazing that NOTHING was ever done about that, and yet, it was on the news for weeks. Simply fucking amazing.

[pornguy]

Funny, I have not read much about this in the news.

" He said that authorities have used the act to bring terrorism charges against 400 people, with more than half of those charges leading to convictions. "

[Babagirls]

Originally Posted by pornguy

Funny, I have not read much about this in the news.

" He said that authorities have used the act to bring terrorism charges against 400 people, with more than half of those charges leading to convictions. "

because its a crock of shit

[smack]

can anyone say "police state"?

[nofx]

Originally Posted by pornguy

Funny, I have not read much about this in the news.

" He said that authorities have used the act to bring terrorism charges against 400 people, with more than half of those charges leading to convictions. "

also funny that only about 250 people get convicted using the patriot act so the rest of the hundreds of thousands of people in the US must have their privacy raped.

[BradM]

Originally Posted by smack

can anyone say "police state"?

[jollyperv]

I wash my hands of this fucked up country. I really do. Every day that goes by makes me more fucking ashamed at how things are run by the government...rich, old white assholes who just don't have a fucking clue.

Make no mistake, America is my home, and I really do love it, but when it's the duty of every american to question their government and few do a fucking thing, I just get really bummed out and angry.

Anyone know a person who's renounced their citizenship? Because every fucking day that goes by makes me want to ditch the whole fucking thing and never look back.

[smack]

Originally Posted by jollyperv

I wash my hands of this fucked up country. I really do. Every day that goes by makes me more fucking ashamed at how things are run by the government...rich, old white assholes who just don't have a fucking clue.

Make no mistake, America is my home, and I really do love it, but when it's the duty of every american to question their government and few do a fucking thing, I just get really bummed out and angry.

Anyone know a person who's renounced their citizenship? Because every fucking day that goes by makes me want to ditch the whole fucking thing and never look back.

you can't quite. where would we be if george washington gave up at valley forge? or if franklin had just given up on getting french aid? america is not a land for quitters.

[kane]

I just hope that congress has enough sense to not listen to him.

[BradM]

Originally Posted by smack

you can't quite. where would we be if george washington gave up at valley forge? or if franklin had just given up on getting french aid? america is not a land for quitters.

This has no relevance to anything. Congratulations for making me lift an eyebrow to this.

[BradM]

Originally Posted by kane

I just hope that congress has enough sense to not listen to him.

Don't be a fruity fruit. Congress will do whatever he tells them to do.

[smack]

Originally Posted by BradM

This has no relevance to anything. Congratulations for making me lift an eyebrow to this.

how is that not relevant? i was responding to his "washing his hands" of this country comment. if more people would stop being distgusted and make their voice heard this country would be much ebtter off.

[BradM]

Originally Posted by smack

how is that not relevant? i was responding to his "washing his hands" of this country comment. if more people would stop being distgusted and make their voice heard this country would be much ebtter off.

Good idea. Make their voice heard and get arrested under the partiot act for conspiracy to overthrow the government, perhaps just being a terrorist or even worse guilty of treason.

Good idea. Be heard, then get arrested.

[smack]

Originally Posted by BradM

Good idea. Make their voice heard and get arrested under the partiot act for conspiracy to overthrow the government, perhaps just being a terrorist or even worse guilty of treason.

Good idea. Be heard, then get arrested.

what the hell are you talking about? i never said overthrow. upheaval can come from within. the power is inherent in the people. the system is capable of change. it just takes the will of the country to do so.

america is based on politcal dissent.

[BradM]

Smoke more weed buddy. It's helping numb reality.

[nofx]

Originally Posted by BradM

Good idea. Make their voice heard and get arrested under the partiot act for conspiracy to overthrow the government, perhaps just being a terrorist or even worse guilty of treason.

Good idea. Be heard, then get arrested.

[dopeman]

Originally Posted by jollyperv

I wash my hands of this fucked up country. I really do. Every day that goes by makes me more fucking ashamed at how things are run by the government...rich, old white assholes who just don't have a fucking clue.

Make no mistake, America is my home, and I really do love it, but when it's the duty of every american to question their government and few do a fucking thing, I just get really bummed out and angry.

Anyone know a person who's renounced their citizenship? Because every fucking day that goes by makes me want to ditch the whole fucking thing and never look back.

americans are getting exactly what they want. go talk to them. they are so brainwashed with fear and bullshit, they WANT this to happen.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by jollyperv

I disagree....we may have 11 years left, you know Jeb dickfuck is gonna run in 2008, and you know it will be fixed once again.

How are they going to fix it? They ran of brothers that are governors. Jeb won't run. If he does he will lose. Trust me, in 3 more years America will be tired of the name BUSH and Jeb knows that.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by dopeman

americans are getting exactly what they want. go talk to them. they are so brainwashed with fear and bullshit, they WANT this to happen.

Really? Despite the fact that Bush got 60 million votes( supposedly ) I can find very few that actually voted for him. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Really? Despite the fact that Bush got 60 million votes( supposedly ) I can find very few that actually voted for him. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Those people are called REPUBLICANS.

[dopeman]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Really? Despite the fact that Bush got 60 million votes( supposedly ) I can find very few that actually voted for him. Hmmmmmmmmm.

dude, he won fair and square this time. and that just proves that the public education system is a catastrophic failure. this administration is the most unabashedly corrupt crimimal machine in modern american history. they are gutting this country's finances, setting 'middle class' americans up for indentured servitude (bankruptcy legislation) and they're going to try to put many "pornographers" in federal prison all while conducting this massive demonstration of racketeering in the fucking Mid East.

"when they came for the muslims.. i didn't say anything."

and so on.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Almighty Colin

Those people are called REPUBLICANS.

Yet they only make up 35% of the voting public.

[TheJimmy]

Originally Posted by Almighty Colin

Those people are called REPUBLICANS.

eh hem...

not all republiCANs voted for him...

.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Yet they only make up 35% of the voting public.

They are also more likely to vote than Democrats and Independents.

The pre-election polls made it obvious it was going to be a very close election.

Final Gallup poll before election (Nov 1, 2004)

49% Bush
47% Kerry
3% Nader

+/- 3%

Actual results:

51% Bush
48% Kerry
1% Nader

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by TheJimmy

eh hem...

not all republiCANs voted for him...

.

No, of course not. Probably about 90% of Republicans who voted punched "Bush". Going by his near record approval rating among members of his own party.

[jayeff]

Don't hold your breath waiting for the American public or US politicians to try to change the White House course. The communist witch-hunts of the 1950's were far more overtly disturbing, yet there was no significant public reaction and just 7 senators spoke out against McCarthy initially. Had McCarthy not made the mistake of taking on the army, his search for communist conspirators likely would have lasted much longer.

In fact, you could easily come to the conclusion that hardly anyone in Washington cared about all the abuses which took place, even after they came to light. Although Joe McCarthy drank himself to death soon afterward, Roy Cohn went on to become a leading attorney, with clients such as Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump: even the Archdiocese of New York.

[theking]

Originally Posted by jollyperv

I wash my hands of this fucked up country. I really do. Every day that goes by makes me more fucking ashamed at how things are run by the government...rich, old white assholes who just don't have a fucking clue.

Make no mistake, America is my home, and I really do love it, but when it's the duty of every american to question their government and few do a fucking thing, I just get really bummed out and angry.

Anyone know a person who's renounced their citizenship? Because every fucking day that goes by makes me want to ditch the whole fucking thing and never look back.

I wonder how old you are. I wonder how often you read news papers...watch the news via TV...and more importantly how often you watch the House and the Senate via C-Span as they debate proposed bills. I wonder how many times you have voted in city...county...state and federal elections. I wonder how often you have expressed your concerns to your Congressman and/or your Senators and/or the White House...via phone...fax...email...snailmail. I wonder what interest you have taken in your government...other than to bitch.

I have listened to the bitching of people about government my entire life (I am in my late forties) and the "doom and gloom" lectures during all of the Administrations in my lifetime and all of the Congresses in my life time. Many...if not most...of the people I have known in my life have not ever voted in any election...city...county...state...and federal. Many...if not most...have ever contacted their Congressman or Senators...or the White House about any concern. Bottom line is the extent of many...if not most...peoples involvement is...bitching.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by theking

I have listened to the bitching of people about government my entire life (I am in my late forties) and the "doom and gloom" lectures during all of the Administrations in my lifetime and all of the Congresses in my life time.

Yup. And it happens all over the world too.

I'd say the Euro "doom and gloom" crows is even louder than the American one right now.

[theking]

Originally Posted by Almighty Colin

Yup. And it happens all over the world too.

I'd say the Euro "doom and gloom" crows is even louder than the American one right now.

A question for you Colin...do you take a more than average interest...in your government?

I take a greater interest than the average bear...and I am sure that the staff of my Congressman have uttered more than a few expletives under their breath...directed towards me. I used to take a big interest in city and county government (less now than before as I become more disabled I get out and about less) as they usually have a direct influence upon my life...more so than the federal government.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by theking

A question for you Colin...do you take a more than average interest...in your government?

I take a greater interest than the average bear...and I am sure that the staff of my Congressman have uttered more than a few expletives under their breath...directed towards me. I used to take a big interest in city and county government (less now than before as I become more disabled I get out and about less) as they usually have a direct influence upon my life...more so than the federal government.

From most people's point-of-view, probably not. I do not hold strong opinions on the major issues that divide the parties. I often see both sides of the debate and don't see one side as "right " or "wrong" but rather see that there could be different outcomes depending on one's philosophical viewpoint of what the world should be like.

Raising taxes, for example, can have numerous effects. It can take money out of the hands of businesses and people and so shrink the private sector. It can also reduce the government's budget deficits. But it can also grow the deficit if private sector profits are reduced from having less operating and investment capital and in the end they may pay less taxes. It also grows the power of governments.

No simple answers.

As far as the Patriot Act. It infringes on many rights and liberties which I think are important. It may also help with law enforcement and in bringing dangerous people in to custody. I am not sure how much it helps. The government is notoriously unreliable in citing such statistics. If there is a nuclear terrorist act on US soil the people will demand much more than the Patriot Act. The question is whether the current Patriot Act will actually help prevent such an act or not. And no one knows how capable any would-be terrorists are of such an act though I think we understand there are plenty with enough motivation. Ideally, I would like to see the Democrats take the House or Senate and bring the political power equation a little more in to balance. Then such debates would be a little more interesting and the ability to rescind any such emergency acts as needed would be much greater.

I am intensely interested in history and how government works but as something of an outsider. I don't vote.

[theking]

The pertinent keywords you used are "No simple answers." This not only applies to government but much of life in general.

Many...if not most...issues addressed by government are complex and are delt with...not in a perfect way...but in a compromising/imperfect way and certainly has never been applauded by all.

As someone once said...throughout our history we have managed to survive government...and I fully expect this trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by theking

The pertinent keywords you used are "No simple answers." This not only applies to government but much of life in general.

Many...if not most...issues addressed by government are complex and are delt with...not in a perfect way...but in a compromising/imperfect way and certainly has never been applauded by all.

As someone once said...throughout our history we have managed to survive government...and I fully expect this trend to continue for the foreseeable future.

I agree. Compromise should be the goal of politics. To come to resolution through agreements rather than revolution. I think a healthy point-of-view is to realize that the world will never be the way one wants it. Sometimes it will become a little more like you want it. At other times it will become less so. The question I ask myself is "it good enough"? My answer is firmly "yes". Is America better today than it was in 1950? I strongly believe it is better. Do we have more or less freedoms? I believe more over all. What occupies the airwaves and newstands today would have been impossible in 1950. Of course there is a segment of society from whom there is a backlash. It is always that way. Well, some freedoms advance and some retract. You can't smoke in restaurants in many states and you have to wear a seatbelt when you drive. Draconian!

That is a funny quote. Who said it? Sounds like something Twain would say.

[theking]

Originally Posted by Almighty Colin

I agree. Compromise should be the goal of politics. To come to resolution through agreements rather than revolution. I think a healthy point-of-view is to realize that the world will never be the way one wants it. Sometimes it will become a little more like you want it. At other times it will become less so. The question I ask myself is "it good enough"? My answer is firmly "yes". Is America better today than it was in 1950? I strongly believe it is better. Do we have more or less freedoms? I believe more over all. What occupies the airwaves and newstands today would have been impossible in 1950. Of course there is a segment of society from whom there is a backlash. It is always that way. Well, some freedoms advance and some retract. You can't smoke in restaurants in many states and you have to wear a seatbelt when you drive. Draconian!

That is a funny quote. Who said it? Sounds like something Twain would say.

I cannot remember who said it...and it does sound a bit like Twain...but I am thinking it could have been Will Rogers.

[jayeff]

There are no simple answers, but people only want simple answers. We are entering a very dangerous time, because it is far easier to sell extreme ideas, particularly those of the right-wing, via slogans and sound-bites, while concepts from the center and left usually need explanation. The more our politicial environment is dumbed-down, the harder it becomes for moderates to be heard and the greater the temptation simply to win votes by pressing peoples' buttons.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by theking

I cannot remember who said it...and it does sound a bit like Twain...but I am thinking it could have been Will Rogers.

That makes more sense.

[FIX01]

"'the Bush administration and former Attorney General John Ashcroft "essentially refused to describe how it was implementing the law; it left numerous substantial questions unanswered, and classified others without justification""

And there it is folks. A secret government creating secret, and even more disturbing (if at all possible) open ended laws which gives them the power to make the rules on the fly without any votes, discussion or debate.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by jayeff

There are no simple answers, but people only want simple answers. We are entering a very dangerous time, because it is far easier to sell extreme ideas, particularly those of the right-wing, via slogans and sound-bites, while concepts from the center and left usually need explanation. The more our politicial environment is dumbed-down, the harder it becomes for moderates to be heard and the greater the temptation simply to win votes by pressing peoples' buttons.

So arguments from the left are nuanced and those from the right are simple? I don't find that to be the case at all.

Just this week you have the Chairman of the Democratic Party calling the Republicans the "white Christian party". What is that but a soundbyte intended to increase the minority vote for the Democratic party? Of course, the Republicans do the exact same stuff on different issues.

Consider the politics of economics. You can read the arguments of Joseph Stiglitz or Robert Rubin on the left. Martin Feldstein and Milton Friedman on the right. There are a few best-sellers in there.

People find arguments they agree with to be intelligent and complex and those they disagree with to be unfounded and simple.

[theking]

Originally Posted by FIX01

"'the Bush administration and former Attorney General John Ashcroft "essentially refused to describe how it was implementing the law; it left numerous substantial questions unanswered, and classified others without justification""

And there it is folks. A secret government creating secret, and even more disturbing (if at all possible) open ended laws which gives them the power to make the rules on the fly without any votes, discussion or debate.

Well...Ashcroft is no longer the Attorney General...and I watched the Senate Hearings via C-Span when the Patriot Act and its "sunset" provisions were been discussed and I personally thought that Attorney General Gonzales was very forth coming with the Senators. He did not appear to hedge on any of the questions asked by the Senators.

[theking]

BTW...I have watched as former Attorney General Ashcroft testified before Senate hearings and he frequently appeared to hedge on his responses. I clearly see two different styles between the former Attorney General Ashcroft and Attorney General Gonzales.

[ADL Colin]

Originally Posted by theking

BTW...I have watched as former Attorney General Ashcroft testified before Senate hearings and he frequently appeared to hedge on his responses. I clearly see two different styles between the former Attorney General Ashcroft and Attorney General Gonzales.

That might not be good for us pornographers.

[theking]

Originally Posted by Almighty Colin

That might not be good for us pornographers.

Well...I have not heard Attorney General Gonzales discuss pornography...but it does appear that the Justice Department is gearing up to take on pornographers. It is my understanding that there has been 25 or so Attorneys in the Justice Department assigned to doing that very thing. I think that even if there is an injunction granted at some point in time that involves the new 2257 regs...it will be limited to certain provisions of the new 2257 and said injunction will not stop the Justice Department from coming after pornographers on the old 2257 regs...and taxes etc.

I think they are going to make a showing that they are attempting to limit the spread of porn in the US...so there are going to be some heads that roll...just my

[jayeff]

Originally Posted by Almighty Colin

So arguments from the left are nuanced and those from the right are simple?

Although I would hardly call Howard Dean left wing, his remarks certainly qualify as a Goebbels-like tactic. But as nothing more than a point-scoring tactic, those remarks are irrelevant to my statement about "extreme ideas, particularly those of the right wing". My point might have been clearer if I had used the word "policies" in place of "ideas", but in any case the crux was the word "extreme" and I did not claim that extremes were the sole province of the right.

Extreme ideas are much more appealing to a dumbed-down electorate, because they are already in tune with many peoples' prejudices and with the less savory aspects of the human character. In terms of electoral viability there is no left wing in the US, therefore the extreme right is the only extreme about which we need be concerned.