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400 rounds

Anthony

Dude, your whole argument is one big fucking red herring.

It's akin to hearing about Canada burning down the White House.

If you think the world hasn't changed since then, you aren't throwing out straw man arguments, you're just flat out delusional.

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Webby

Ya kinda summed it up - bluntly

Only my and based only on what I see - there are two types of problem:

(a) People going crazy as we have seen today. That is not predictable and even the most highly qualified/trained owner of a weapon can turn on others.

(b) Second is more related to what you said - greed. Basically offenses to acquire "wealth" - armed robberies, drugs trafficking etc. The latter will kill each other and anyone around them who they may consider a potential threat. They have money and want more and nothing will stop the greed/killings. Check the list on death row - they may have been drug dealers, but they got convicted for killing people.

The second group is prob the main problem - tho in the process, others end up being armed to "defend themselves" and, will also kill each other, either in error or in an unpredictable unstable mental condition. It's a problem

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V_RocKs

Russia and China don't tell you about their mass killings... It is called communism.

We out populate everyone else in Europe and Asia...

Simple statistics...

30 people in Virginia once a while or 100,000 people a year in African nations....

My money is on the USA...

headless ghost

so Virginia really isn't for lovers?

RawAlex

Deep comeback.

Why do so many criminals in the US have hand guns?

Webby

Simple stats... ya don't out populate the rest of the world - the US is around 5% of world population, and, dumping any area where there could be dubious stats and taking the rest of the western world into account by itself - it's a massive difference in guns-related offenses and around 5 times more than all western countries combined (and a couple of Eastern countries).

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yota71

I had to put in an understandable approach. As angry as we all get about the people the laws and everything else. It is so hard for Humans to join together to fix our problems.

It can be done (I watched it happen for .XXX on GFY)
The sad thing is that people always wait until it directly benefits them (selfishness)

Most people have SOME valid points and even though they may disagree with others it is still a point. Now if we can just stop fighting ,recognize differences and stop pointing fingers we have taken the first step to a resolving problems.

Differences is one of the things that once made the US a great place

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AmateurFlix

The stats I was referring to, and what I thought our discussion had turned to specifically, was the # of domestic violence incidents in which a firearm was involved compared to those without one. No way can those involving firearms possibly be comparable to those without - my point being that in a situation such as that (which you gave as an example) any weapon at hand will be utilized, the presence of a firearm isn't going to make it any more or less likely to occur.

As far as your point about police being "outgunned" by criminals with more sophisticated weapons - this is mostly a misconception on the part of people unfamiliar with firearms. There is the odd incident with a criminal obtaining a fully automatic machine gun, however it is exceedingly rare that police are faced with one; even then, returning a spray of fire on full-auto is not usually the best approach. Those weapons are almost impossible to obtain legally here without getting special permits and paying well into the 5 figure range, and the gov't keeps close tabs on their sales - so legal availability isn't an issue, as they are already effectively banned.

Most other halfway-decent quality modern firearms are on a fairly level playing field with one another in any typical situation. Police like to get new equipment though, and claiming they are "outgunned" is a good way to obtain new firearms. Many of them still prefer using more traditional and proven technology (such as a simple revolver which is more reliable), which negates the idea that a more sophisticated firearm is going to be more effective in a typical law enforcement situation.

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Webby

Prob because they can Alex.

In a few other countries where perps did use arms in execution of stuff like robberies - they changed the firearms laws and also changed the sentencing procedures with a minimum of 12 years if a firearm was involved (that's before consideration of a penalty for the actual robbery offense).

The result? Armed robberies dropped dramatically - it's was no longer "profitable". And..... blue-collar theft/fraud increased

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DaddyHalbucks

This is horrible, just horrible.

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AmateurFlix

The US has similar laws - harsher penalties for offenses committed while using a gun - I'm not sure what effect that had on crime when implemented.

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CDSmith

I always wonderr why, when some crisis like this happens, that so many people feel the need to try to "solve" it or "explain" the problem, place blame, and try to put forth the ultimate "solution". Fact is IT HAPPENED, there IS no explanation for it, and arguing and yapping at one another about gun ownership and violent video games isn't going to fix or solve fuck all.

Just deal with it. Because after all the keyboard arguing and pissing, isn't that really all any of us CAN do?

And maybe make sure that the next time you see or hear someone exhibiting signs that they might be unstable, alert someone. Take it seriously. Some idiot making idle comments about how cool it might be to blow people away etc. I've literally heard of people laughing that kind of shit off, "ah he's just kidding, relax man".... sorry, maybe it's time to take creepy little jokes or comments like that a bit more seriously.

But in the end, if someone is going to go off their nut and kill people, they'll find a way to do it.

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Webby

Sorry... misunderstood! Na.. don't know about the actual stats re "domestics" - this was a few decades ago and prob changed now.


Not sure agencies dealing with serious crime would agree It's also, and still amazed with some of this, - there is a lot going on which never gets reported in the media - far more! Even where there are folks walking around and actually witness "incidents".

Can't and would never say stuff here, but there is one very serious "war" going on and know folks involved - they are only equipped with standard weapons (tho may have more than one) - but they have faced sophisticated weapons in the hands of crooks. If ya can, you adopt the standard LE procedure and run like hell or do whatever to cover your ass - then come back to fight another day. Dunno.. but don't sound like they actually want more sophisticated weapons - they work with what they got and take time to "evaluate" and then do a "surprise attack" (often with others and more heavy weapons - or let others take over if there are undercover problems).

There don't seem to be a great shortage of good weapons in the hands of "serious crooks" AF - tho may be because there are unlimited finances and little is going to stop that.

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Anthony

Not as deep as the bullshit you posted before it.

Why do so many criminals in Canada have hand guns?

Your debating skills have eroded over the years.

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AmateurFlix

Of course they wouldn't, when has any government agency turned down an opportunity to spend tax money

The fact remains that if you observe what type of weapons LE are carrying, you'll frequently see the more "primitive" weapons some would have you believe are ineffective, even when they have other choices available.

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maxjohan

Here is some facts that I digged up about Japan and New York, hope this is the truth:

Tokyo is the safest major city in the world. Only 59,000 licensed gun owners live in Tokyo.[25] Per one million inhabitants, Tokyo has 40 reported muggings a year; New York has 11,000.[26] The handgun murder rate is at least 200 times higher in America than Japan.[27] The official homicide rate in Japan in 1988 was 1.2 homicide cases per 100,000 population, while in America it was 8.4 homocide cases per 100,000.[28]

Robbery is almost as rare as murder. Indeed, armed robbery and murder are both so rare that they usually make the national news, regardless of where they occur.[29] Japan's robbery rate is 1.4 per 100,000 inhabitants. The reported American rate is 220.9.[30] People walk anywhere in Japan at night, and carry large sums of cash.[31]

http://www.guncite.com/journals/dkjgc.html

Deej

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dissipate

guess i'm the officiall GFY news whore for the day

Neighbor

the world is NOT getting better when we are breaking records of massacre deaths... lots of mourning today... my prayers go out to the families of the victims

CDSmith

That right there is almost funny, in a not-so-funny-yet-somehow-hilarious kind of way.

Here in Winnipeg we have about 25 murders per year give or take. I'm told by a few people from DC that they have that many over any long weekend.

Food for thought.

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Webby

Hehe... most likely they'd love an extended budget *lol*

Can't say much about this - the only people I know are not connected with spending money or "wishing" - they just "do" as needed :-)

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Webby

OK.. sure.. but Japan is known to be the best example of low crime

Tho again... take any western country and weapons-related crime is a tiny figure pro rata population and the US stands out like a shotgun to the face

When I was a naive lad - I was kinda.. stunned to have friends walking around with guns in holsters and kept asking em to stuff that shit away - it was "disconcerting" But.. hell, ya get used to it and they live with it every day. It was also a surprise to them that law enforcement in other countries did not have the same "habits" - gave examples of the EU where it would be a major frenzy if there was a weapons incident with a cop. It's just another world...

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AmateurFlix

I wonder what other differences one could find between Winnipeg and DC, in particular as far as demographics.

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KaliC

So it's a Chinese gang right? they had vests on and uniforms.

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CDSmith

Yes, DC is bigger in size and population.


But not that much bigger.


There is a definite gap when it comes to crime, no question. If you don't like the choice of cities in the comparisson then let's try Toronto and DC. There's STILL a huge gap in the yearly murder rate.


More food for thought.

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fuzzylogic

well, i was gonna post something cause my sister was on campus, but this thread has turned into something completely different. :/

Big_Red

this suxs so bad.

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AmateurFlix

You're missing the point. The populations of Winnipeg (and I'd guess Toronto as well) probably have a vastly different ethnicity than DC does.

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Drake

One guys goes on a rampage so we should disarm 100's of millions of law abiding gun owning citizens in a country founded on the principle to bear arms? Please.

Webby

Throw ya a thought AF - really since you mentioned ethnicity.

It really does not matter much about whatever race. You can stuff 100 people from all over the globe and they won't be "offending" re gun offenses at the same rate as is in the US.

Why? (And this ain't no heartbreak hotel story) - people who have been trampled on for.. literally centuries, will find whatever mechanisms they can to survive. In the middle of that - they will learn a few more ways of earning. It's not overnight but something over decades. It is only 60 years or so since a black guy entered a baseball pitch - that is roughly the time, looking back, as the Second World War - it's not that long ago. Since then there have been race riots (from MLK onwards) and a face of tolerance on race - but, it's skin deep.
No way can anyone claim certain races have equality with others - we can denegrate and find people "useless" or whatever, but the core issue is underneath - they adopt methods of finding money one way or other. These races could be African American, Italian, Jewish whatever... If a society slaps em down - of course there will be more crime from that area.

Only my - to select areas based on ethnicity is a social problem. It's something any country has to deal with and resolve. This is not only spreading over just the US - but it's borders where Mexican folks may enter the US and eventually get involved in crime (assuming most are not already involved in eg the drugs trade). Many will never have a rap sheet - but the fundamental problem exists and will not go away unless action is taken to resolve it.

Overall.. don't matter about race - people don't go around killing others because of where they may live. There is a problem where they live - and the source of "unrest" and it will show in crime stats.


PS .. Don't think ya have to wait much longer before the crime rate in New Orleans shoots up - it has already started. Why? Same old reason.

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AmateurFlix

Statistics prove this to be incorrect; overall certain ethnic groups, within the USA at least, have a much higher % of criminals than others do (the reasons for this are unimportant for this debate). It follows that a population with a smaller proportion of the same would have a lower % of violent crimes overall.

The example of comparing Winnipeg to DC seemed to indicate that the main difference between the two cities was gun laws, when in reality there are more factors involved, mainly the people that make up those cities.

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Webby

Why is there a higher percentage among certain ethnic groups? Social problems - it's 50 steps back, but that is the source of most crime. It's the same in all countries - not just the US.

Missing the logic on this :-)

OK.. When cherry-picking relatively small regions it's hard to come up with any balanced stats and can see what you mean. Again.. prob better to use whole nations to evaluate than smallish areas.

If you take Canada as a whole and compare with the US pro rata population - the fuller picture will show - and along the lines of international stats.

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AmateurFlix

I'll use an example.

Population group A has 2% violent criminals.
Population group B has 15% violent criminals.

One city has 1000 citizens of group A (20 of whom are criminals) and 1000 of group B (150 of whom are criminals). If statistics hold true this city should have 170 violent criminals.

Another city has 1900 citizens of group A (38 criminals) and 100 of group B (1.5 - on average - criminals). Statistically this city should have ~40 criminals.

So the city with a lesser proportion of the group that has more criminal elements ends up with only 40 trouble makers rather than the 170 the other city has, yet both have an identical number of citizens overall.

All other factors aside, which one would you expect to have a lower crime rate?

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Webby

Got ya! --- Sounds like back to the "social conditions"...

Just trying to find some actual stats - not easy!! Reasons are there are no totally reliable stats on international crime - simply because of regional/country variations. Eg.. some countries count multiple counts relating to one offense - as one offense - others don't. Interpol site is total crap on navigation and stats.

OK.. got these stats, but they still need to be taken as a guide only....

Murders with firearms in the US: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
Ditto in Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people

Looks like over fivefold increase..

This is supposedly "murders by firearms" only - not "firearms where injuries were caused" etc... or where firearms were used in commission of a crime etc.

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Gabriel Night

i cant imagine how a people do this

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Porno Dan

I hope you all realize that hand guns are illegal in Washington DC.

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Anthony

This was in Virginia. Where it LEGAL to own a firearm, and is a SHALL ISSUE state for Concealed weapon carry.

Unfortuantely, you can't carry a firearm on campus, or this wouldn't have happened.

There is a reason why most shootings are in schools, post offices, and goverment buildings.

Firearms are prohibited by law. That doesn't stop the criminal, like today. They dont' give a fuck about the law.

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Kevsh

Sort of off-topic but this is going nowhere...

I'll bet if it turns out the shooting spree was premeditated, the bomb threats called in to the police were to test response times to 911 calls on campus.

Just a hunch.

AmateurFlix

That doesn't surprise me at all. A bit of a different culture and (I'm guessing) alot less inner-city gang trouble than the US are probably the biggest reasons. I'm not very familiar with their gun laws, I think rifles are allowed but not pistols (?).

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JaneB

I think you are right. After something like this happens people always come out and say how the person was upset, mentally ill, etc. People noticed something was wrong, but did nothing about it. We should start taking stuff people say a little more seriously.

hdkiller

This is one of the guys (?)

http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/
http://vt.facebook.com/photos.php?id=6202368&l=d1b29

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yota71

There is two ways to look at every thing. Schools, Post Offices and Government Offices are also considered areas of high stress atmospheres.

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Webby

Wonder why you "can't carry a firearm on campus"?? Because the idiots will shoot themselves and others may be a clue. Next we'll have swat teams every time there is an "domestic" on campus. Why should LE risk their necks?

You think? :-) Apart from the publicity surrounding incidents like today - and it's only me, but never heard of many shootings in schools etc. Last shootings I know of were in a restaurant, on a freeway, in a lauderette in a certain state (which was obviously the most profitable launderette on the face of the planet *s*) and last was a boatyard in Florida.

Totally agree - they don't give a shit - especially if there is a sense of power thru having plenty money - they become "untouchable" (or so they think!)

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AmateurFlix

His point is that regardless of the initial cause the reason the events grow to such enormous proportions is because everyone in the area is prevented from having the means to put an end to it. Instead they need to wait for the police to organize a swat team and traverse the city while people are getting killed in the interim.

Whether the perpetrators take this into account while planning their attacks is anyone's guess, but it does present them with an unfortunate opportunity.

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AmateurFlix

People issued concealed carry permits are required to go through strict training before being issued, they don't give them to 'idiots apt to shoot themselves', at least in my area.

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Webby

Sure.. understand! It's back to the scenario where people are OK for a firearm permit - but who knows what may happen in their lives in the future or what their mental state may be. To totally secure the public - you'd need a crystal ball.


PS.. Ain't funny - but ya gotta smile You ever heard of a cop shooting himself in error, not once, but twice in his left side??? *lol* That's a hard achievement to beat!! Another shot himself in the foot - tho maybe not too uncommon. If folks who are trained can do this - what hope for the public?

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yota71

I understand Anthony's POV.
The point I was making was that most of these types of shootings are stress related in nature. The locations are not necessarily due to the lack of firearms being allowed.

Those locations are stressful atmospheres and angry people have a tendency to take out their vengeance on what they THINK pisses them off or is within their reach.

The fix for these problems are speculation and we can't forget that Humans have the gift / curse to adapt to restrictions place upon them.

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scottybuzz

if some asian kid wakes up in england having had a bads night sleep, he doesnt get a gun and go bust up a college. he grabs a knife or some shit. and cuts as many people as he can

yet in america he breaks into a car and gets one and then tears up a college because that is a cult thing to do now.

it is truely sad how you americans are in love with guns.

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