Snazzy

OK I'm not American but the events of 9/11 have seriously effected my views on the world. Am I the only one who seems to hate the fucking wannabe bin laden and everything he stands for? Personally I hope he and everyone like him burns in hell for what they did. I hope the US managed to get him, and if they did - I hope they torture the bastard till he begs for mercy. Shouldn't even be given that, he's lower than scum in my opinion!

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Snazzy
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Interlude

Stick your head in an oven, you breathing piece of birthwaste. I hope you die in a fire that could have easily been avoided.

dropped9

Great post Pornwolf!

My fiancee's father is a volunter firemen in weschester county ny. After the first plane hit he ran down to the city to do whatever he could. He did not come home for 3 days. And when he did come home he only stayed for 2 hours, ate, showered and then went back down for another 3 days straight. He did not get paid. He found no glory in his actions.

What he did find were dozens and dozens of body parts and debri all over the place. It takes a strong person to pick fingers, bones, elbows, hands, you name it from rubble for days on end. And he was not the only one. There were thousands of men and women down their doing what people like you can only watch on tv.

Joe Sixpack

Hahahahaahaha!

Plat

we didnt get him, thats the thing.

my belief on the whole "OMG KILL BIN LADEN NOW!" thing that bush pushed was all bullshit propaganda to make us think we were at least trying to fight back. If we want to fight back then go after their main supply, not their leader

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Im fuckin retired

Plat

and Joe sup man :p i think ima come visit u guys next week when i get a day off from school, ur in charlotte right? I've been talking alot with Dallas lately :c)

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Im fuckin retired

[Labret]

American Patriotism.

If I die while doing my job, I am a hero as well.

Everyone is a hero now.

Just the Village Idiot

Labret you fucking moron... do you even know what hero means???

I gave the definition above...

If you die doing your job during "feats of courage or nobility of purpose" while risking or sacrificing your life... then as much as I hate to say it -- you would be a hero.

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[Labret]

So then plowing your mother counts...



If you say so.

Joe Sixpack

Which dictionary did your definition come from?

edmo

US faces 9/11 ad black hole
"US media companies are bracing themselves for huge losses of tens of millions of pounds as advertisers shun the anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks."
http://media.guardian.co.uk/advertis...772075,00.html

Running nonstop news during a terrorist attack actually loses money. Not many people want to see Billy Mays promote OxyClean while shit's hitting the fan.

Just the Village Idiot

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[labret] --

I have to admit... sometimes I think you actually are an intellectual. So going with that... why don't you answer me this...

If language means nothing and definitions don't matter, how does one share ideas???

By talking about each others mothers???

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edmo

There are some great pictures here if you have not seen them:
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue01...gart_intro.htm

Bill Biggart was a photographer that kept going closer to the towers as they fell. And some of the media was recovered in the rubble. His last photo is around two minutes from the time the second tower collapsed.

[Labret]

Im not sure where you see me questioning the definition of hero.

I am of the opinion that the term is used far too loosely these days.

Rudolph Giuliani... is not a hero. The 8 year old girl who carried water to the tired fireman... not a hero. The third floor janitor who lept to safety. Not. A. Hero. Everyone associated with that event is a fucking hero. Fuck, they paint the residents of New York as heroes.

2 years ago the entire nation was of the opinion that New York was a cesspool full of rude assholes. Now it is a city of Heroes.

I beg to differ.

X37375787

My opinion will most likely make lotsa people hate me, but I think that Osama Bin Laden's actions last year were the work of a genius. He knew exactly what he wanted to achieve and carried it out flawlessly. His strong fanastism, hate and believe drove him to plan this over years and years. The entire free world is shocked in disbelief. I am not saying that I agree with what he did, hell no - my own family could have been there, or even myself. I would not want to have anyone close to me die under millions of tons of debree. However, just like the Austrian Adolf Hitler managed to have millions of Germans follow his sick ideology and put more millions of helpless, innocent Jews and others into the gas chamber over 50 years ago, ObL managed to convince other fanatics to follow his vicious plan. Although only few Americans will admit it, the US does stick their nose into things that are beyond their range... it was just a matter of time until someone with the means to carry out a silent counterattack would emerge. And with ObL the muslim extremists found their daddy. Sad but true.

Every action is followed by a reaction. You mess with people and underestimate them, and you'll get stabbed from behind although you would have never ever expected it. Just my . Live with it or not.

X37375787

Heroes or not. The nation needs heroes to cope with the events that happened.... it happenes naturally that heroes emerge.

Joe Sixpack

I generally agree with you. I think September 11 was an extraordinarily successful terrorist attack. They kept the lid on it... there were no leaks before the actual event and 3 out of 4 planes hit their intended targets. I suspect they were more successful than they ever expected to be.

I give it an 8 out of 10

[Labret]

An 8 for what is the most spectacular terrorist attack in history?

A handful of sand monkies managed to do damn near single handedly destroy the American airline industry, instead of gently sliding into a recession, it catapulted us into one. The absolute spit in the face factor and kick in the nuts to national pride makes this a 10. It was absolutely amazing. Not too mention the loss of life and property damage.

The full repercussions have not been felt from this.

X37375787

Labret has a good point. Considering that the US will talk about it for the next century or so, I'd give it a 10 as well.

edmo

Yes but what happened to Japan and her Emperor after they dive bombed Pearl Harbor? What of Hitler and his Nazi party after we added our efforts to the War?

They were both destroyed. Sent into economic and civil turmoil. If you're judging simply in terms of bang for buck it was brilliant. If you're judging in terms of grand military strategy then Bin Laden would have been much smarter to stay quiet and hidden until he could have caused much more extensive damage. Bin Laden is a huge figure in the Islamic community and could have launched a massive and sustained attack on all his perceived enemies.

Instead he has pissed away his chance a leading the Muslim Jihad by destroying a building and a few thousand people. We're lucky that most of the people throughout history with the balls to bring us to war are so incompetent and so near sighted.

Joe Sixpack

If the fourth plane had destroyed the White House, it would have been a 10 no question.

Then you would have had:

1. The symbolic destruction of the US economy
2. The symbolic destruction of the US Armed Forces
3. The symbolic destruction of the US government.

In my opinion, the White House SHOULD have been the primary target. They failed to take it out.

greentea

In my opinion it should of been your home.. But they failed

X37375787

Japan ? Thanks to the early work of German refugee scientists Otto Hahn and Otto Frisch the US was capable of dropping 'Little Boy' on August 6th and 66,000 people were killed and 69,000 injured by the 10 kiloton explosion. Followed by the attack on Nagasaki, 'Fat Man' was dropped on August 9th - Nagasaki's population vanished from 422,000 to 383,000 and over 25,000 people were injured there.

Highly impressive warfare. :rolleyes:

The downfall of Hitler was not only thanks to our allies from overseas, but also due to the strong forces from the former Sovjet Union, that drove Hitler back from the East. Not to forget the British and the French Resistance.

Joe Sixpack

hahahahahaaha!

Sorry, Australians don't manage to piss of the sand ******s like you Americans do!

edmo

September 11 should not be classified as a 10 in terms of strategy.

A 6 or 7 would be more appropriate.

Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons in a single large city would be an 8.

Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons set off in multiple cities with millions dead and a great depression level collapse of the US and world economy would be a 9.

NBC weapons plus a complete revolution/takeover or destruction of the US Government and destruction of major metro areas of United States would justify a 10.

Pathfinder

I concur. I, having been involved in many military operations, I give it a 10. As operations go it was almost 100% in its success.

It was the most damaging, single attack, ever delivered to America, or even to its Military Forces, in loss of life and economic damage.

A few "sand monkies" did something that the Japanese and the Germans could not accomplish.

The best the Japanese could do was to float a few bombs over the mainland by balloon, and the best the Germans could do was to fire a few rounds from a Submarine.

While the enemy must be destroyed, I, as a professional soldier learned to respect, and even admire, my enemy when they carried out a well planned and professionally executed operation.

Just the Village Idiot

Here's where I see you questioning the definition of a hero...

"If I die while doing my job, I am a hero as well.

Everyone is a hero now."

No not everyone that does their job is a hero...

Giuliani is NOT a hero, the 8 year old is not a hero, and the janitor is not a hero.

New York is still a cesspool and full of rude assholes!

No it's not a city of heroes... but give the heroes their due!

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X37375787

Heroes or not. Anybody in that situation would have acted in a helpful manner, no matter what.

This Hero bullshit sickens me.

ChrisH

CluelessJoe,
They are firefighters because their fathers, and grandfathers were firefighters. That's what they grew up in.

On Sept 11 the FDNY lost almost 350 men, many that were very high in rank.

In their first 100 years the FNDY lost just over 700 men total.

Many people lived because these men went as far as the 78th floor saving people, and helping them get out. Only to have two 110 story buildings collapse on top of them.

Now if that doesn't sound heroic to you, you don't understand the English language very well.

No go die in a fire

ChrisH

There's alot less violence in NYC than Detroit, or Chicago. That's for damn sure!

[Labret]

What does that prove exactly?

X37375787

I don't get your point. If you choose to work in a job that brings a certain risk with it, you need to live with the risk, and well, sometimes destiny grabs you by your nuts and you die while doing your job. There's nothing heroic in my point of view. They did their job, cuz that's what they're doing, for Christ's sake.

Joe Sixpack

No that doesn't sound heroic to me at all. They were doing their job. End of story.

In fact, I think the terrorists were more heroic than the firefighters. They gave their lives for something they believed in, not because they had to but because they wanted to. They sacrificed their lives for Jihad - something they believed very passionately in. I'd say they qualify here:

It all depends on who's side you're on I guess.


So, save your rhetoric fuckface!

Pathfinder

I agree with [Labret] that the word "hero" is to liberally applied and thus reduces the value of being labled a "hero".

On the other hand I have always had ambivilant feelings about the lable of being a hero.

Today's military is an all volunteer force. Far less than 1% of the US population are active military on any given day. Military personell have to make sacrifices, and live hardships (even in times of peace) that civilians who have never served cannot really comprehend. Are they hero's to make the sacrifice?

In any given conflict approximately 10% of the military forces are actual combatants. In other words, at one point in time in Vietnam we had something in excess of 500,000 troops in country, so only approximately 50,000 were actual combatants that would actively engage the enemy on any given day. Were the non-combatants hero's for being there and supplying the logistics for the combatants?

About 85% of the forces at that point in time were drafted, but for the most part performed whatever job was assigned to them , be it a combat unit or not? Were they hero's?

Within the combat units, were all of those that engaged the enemy hero's, or was it only those that while engaged in a fire fight, performed above and beyond, that were hero's.

Joe Sixpack

And what about the enemy... those you were shooting at.

Were they heroes?

After all, they were exactly the same... just fighting for the other team.

Hitler was a hero to those who thought he was doing the right thing.

X37375787

Exactly, it's just the arrogant point of view that does not make people see the other side of the coin. Why do you think ObL is being worshipped like a god ? Because he was the one who stood up against the mighty enemy and struck him hard. He's their hero.

But then again it is sick (religious) belief that drives people to their actions. Certainly Hitler was a hero for those blinded by his strong visions, but the rest of the world had to watch innocent people getting massacred and burnt. All a matter of relativity.

Pathfinder

I posted this just a few posts above this. Pay attention FUS.

So in answer to your question; they had their share of hero's.

Joe Sixpack

So you agree that the "terrorists" were heroes?

X37375787

Yes they were heroes. Just not for the American people.

Pathfinder

Speaking from a military view point they volunteered to make the ultimate sacrifice for their cause and their mission was successful. If they had been members of the American Military they would have been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, our highest military award.

The semi-military organization they came from must be hated and destroyed, or made to become totally impotent.

Pornwolf

I think the rest of America takes this thing a little more seriously then us here in NY. We don't look at the Policemen & Firefighters who probably had no part to play in rescue as heroes. We don't use hereo as a blanket statement as weepy ass CBS would have you beleive. As a matter of fact, while the rest of the country watches the memorials on TV on the 11th, most of us here will be doing something else while getting on with our lives.

All of us here have watched the site get swamped by tourists every day now. I just left the area and looked at the huge hole in the ground. We are over it. We look at each other and shake our heads at the people that come here to look at it and take pictures while waving hi to the folks back home.

The people who ran in the buildings and gave their lives are heroes. The firemen and police officers that pitched in around the clock for weeks after have given firemen and policemen a new respect all over. Heroes? Maybe not, but we appreciate those guys a lil more than we did on Sept. 10th. A Fireman in Chicago can suck my dick though. I don't even want to start talking about what a policeman in L.A. can do for me. The respect that carried over to them is apalling.

People around the world die everyday. It happened to us. Once. It's over. We don't know why it happened or who did it. What the fuck are we supposed to achieve by thinking about this situation constantly. If something else happens it will most likely happen here. If a nuke goes off in the US it will be my skin that melts. If a biological weapon hits us it's my dick that will fall off. We are in the middle of this but we're not as concerned as the rest of America! We are more concerned about crime in the Bronx. How can you stress over something that Might happen?

Get over it guys.

X37375787

I agree with Pornwolf. It's honestly time to get over what happened - sadly the US government made it its primary goal to wipe out terrorism in the free world. What they don't see are the people they are stepping on while doing it. Wouldn't surprise me if someone else got pissed and planned a sudden attack.

Uhm, when a drunk, angry nazi fuck kills me with his car while I walk to work, am I a hero ?

Pornwolf

No. But when you make a decision to risk your life in an unusually dangerous situation and save a life you are. In war when a soldier saves his trapped platoon and a little girl in a Saigon village under heavy fire it's obvious to me that you guys think that soldier is not a hero. No purple heart for him after he gets his ass blown off because he's a soldier. That was his job.

C'mon, give credit where credit is due.

X37375787

Oh sorry, didn't read your post properly. Just scammed it But you're right.

Pathfinder

Most of the terrorists do not live in a free world. The USA's primary goal shoud be to wipe out its enemies, or, at the least, make its enemies totally impotent.

What you may not understand is that our government does see the people they are stepping on and they do not care. If it interferes with the destruction of the enemy, or making the enemy impotent, they should not care.

The USA is the most powerful Nation in the history of the World, and only fools would dare become our enemy. We will deal with enemies, as they appear, and if in these efforts we make more enemies, we will deal with them in turn. Bottom line, do not fuck with the USA.

We once had a flag that said "Do not tread on me". The world needs to read it, learn it and know it.

No, that would not make you a hero.

Someone that puts their own life in danger to save another, pretty much falls within the category of being a hero.

X37375787

See Pathfinder, this is exaclty the arrogant attitude that I, along with millions of Europeans, can't stand. I love US, otherwise I would not live here, but the 'mess with us and we'll crush you like a peanut' attitude simply makes my head shake.

From what I understood, the extremist muslim world got pissed at the US, because they did not leave the Holy Land after the Gulf War was over. That was one of the reasons why there is such hatred going on in the East. Now, if you think it is better to provoke others with your behavior, piss them off, get your ass kicked (see Sept. 11th) and then run a revenge campaign that will again piss even more people off ... ok, sure thing. Just don't be surprised if more innnocent fall as victims to an ignorant Bush regime.

Isn't it that many allied (with the west) countries surrounding Iraq voted against an attack on Saddam Hussein, because they are afraid of a massive economic recession in case Bush launched a sudden attack ?

Joe Sixpack

This is a typical military mindset. These people are not capable of independent thought. They do what they army tells them and they believe what the army tells them. Pathetic conformists.

X37375787

100 !!!

X37375787

*If* the (Quote) "USA is the most powerful Nation in the history of the World, and only fools would dare become our enemy", then please tell me why there was the Cold War, during which both sides were playing Cat&Mouse on the verge of a Third World War ?

Maybe the CCCP were fools, but they were pretty damn fucking powerful enough to scare Big Brother and make him tremble.

Pornwolf

You know what Equinox, I would normally agree with you. Not on the attitude argument though. All through history the success of countries has been determined by who is stronger. Nothing is different today. If Russia didn't have a history of having nukes(strength) they would matter to us as much as Greenland does. A nations status is still determined by strength. We are strongest. Sometimes we have to bark at the other dogs to remind them and keep them scared. So be it.


I think the way this 'terrorism' issue is being handled is very Cowboy like. But it is being handled by a Cowboy so that explains it. I'm sure if we were actually fighting terrorists we would have killed them, their babies, and erased their history from their local library for future generations. Maybe I'm a little too confident in our military but that's what I believe. I'm sure Pathfinder could tell me if I'm off base. I don't think we are hunting terrorists at all.