SICKO makes me hate the US more than I ever have

[seeric]

If I was ever more depressed that I just didn't stay in Brasil or Costa Rica, it was tonight when I watched confirmed what I've known for so long but refused to see.

It was like letting go someone who was on life support for 20 years that you just couldn't afford to keep resuscitated. I now am jealous of the French, British, Canadians, and damn, pretty much every other country besides this one.



Defend at will.

[papill0n]

America is still a great country - don't give up on her just yet mate

[seeric]

yeah i know ben, i served for this country. to see foreigners who i really respect for their culture and worldliness and human caring really makes you disappointed in the usa. i can see straight through this bs as it stood before even seeing the documentary. michael is known to edit cleverly, but you can't deny fact.

here's one for ya.

i recently had a car crash. cost me over 7k in emergency room bills. no insurance. i covered it of course. any other country, you're straight. here, they are all bizness. i don't care about that much, but it really upset me that there are so many people here that are insured and still get owned by big biz ins companies and for profit hmos that make all their loot on denying claims and all that. wow, how some people can sleep at night.

[buzzy]

Most of us in this country were brought up with the values that everyone has the right to free healthcare, education etc, basic human rights. I did watch Sicko and was kind of surprised, I wasn't really aware that it was like that in the US. But don't feel bad, there are alot of things that we respect and love America for, albeit the leaders let you down but Florida is one of my favourite place in the world! :D

[KILL_FRENZY]

I can say that I still love it

[seeric]

Originally Posted by buzzy

Most of us in this country were brought up with the values that everyone has the right to free healthcare, education etc, basic human rights. I did watch Sicko and was kind of surprised, I wasn't really aware that it was like that in the US. But don't feel bad, there are alot of things that we respect and love America for, albeit the leaders let you down but Florida is one of my favourite place in the world! :D

Lovely to look at, evil to hold.

You're better off where you are.

Don't believe what you see on TV.

Maybe it's my incessant independance and gypsy like adolescence that makes me irritated. I've been a world traveler and not willing to listen to the BS since age 17 so maybe I am biased.



I so wish that I could drop it all and disappear. I almost did and held back.

Maybe one day.

[wiggitywack]

Airek

I just saw SICKO for the first time last night, also it got me down a bit.
Perhaps it's time for you to go back to Curitiba ....or as I suggest Florianópolis.

I was just in Florianópolis 2 weeks ago and it was really nice - clean, seemed safe, beautiful beaches/lifestyle - and of course everyone has health insurance.

The only thing that sucks is the American Peso Dollar has lost so much value, soon it may be on par to the Real.

[seeric]

you have no idea my friend. brasil is in my blood and in time i will be back there for good.

this whole u.s.a. bullshit is overrated.

seriously.

floripas is the best spot on earth. well, there and buzios.

[jollyperv]

The thing that Michael Moore doesn't mention is how much more income tax the citizens of these countries pay for their so called free healthcare.

[Damian_Maxcash]

Worth every penny Jollyperv....

[directfiesta]

we don't have FREE healthcare ..

We have UNIVERSAL healthcare.

[seeric]

no they did address that.

i have no problems whatsoever paying more taxes. bottom line is the u.s. is run by people who don't give a shit about their citizens and it's all about making that buck.

they totally addressed taxes in other countries in the film.

i wouldn't care if i had to pay half of my earnings to tax if it helped us all.

go capitalism.

[The Demon]

You don't have a problem paying 65% taxes? I highly doubt that.

[Cyber Fucker]

yeah there is something wrong with US lately... even I, who live in Poland wouldn't like to live in US

[Damian_Maxcash]

Who pays 65% taxes?

[Juicy D. Links]

purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Drake]

Paying more tax for universal healthcare seems more logical to me. If you have a serious condition, you're probably not going to be able to afford the drugs and medical costs no matter how much you've save from being taxed less.

[xmas13]

US healthcare is a rip-off indeed, but you can't blame surgeons for making a million a year, by saving so many thousands of lives.

Life is priceless.

I hate drug companies though.

[directfiesta]

Who pays 65% taxes?


Mr. Rumor.

[TMM_Vlad]

YO! how fucked up was that shit going on in Guantanamo bay

[Johny Traffic]

You don't have a problem paying 65% taxes? I highly doubt that.

Who pays 65% taxes?

[CDSmith]

No one in Canada pays 65% taxes. That's something someone who doesn't live here pulled out of his ass.

Fact is as far as income tax goes we don't pay all that much more than Americans do. Someone in a high tax bracket here pays in the 40-45% range, and so do high earners in the US.

The difference is we don't have to spend thousands per year on private insurance like they do.

Try to spin it all you want with your "ya but you pay way higher taxes" crap but I think we have it pretty good here, all things considered. Wouldn't trade it either. I love not having to pay an extra $300, $500 or $1000 a month for health insurance, and love knowing that if I ever need a surgery or hospital stay that they're not going to slap me with a $100,000 medical bill.

Cheers.

[aico]

don't blame America, blame it's leaders. Although we are kind of to blame for them being our leaders I guess.

[buzzy]

People say though that we all pay 40% taxes. The large majority are not in that tax baracket which is for the high earners, most people are in the 20-30% tax bracket which is exactly the same as americans and we still get free healthcare.

[Probono]

Most Americans pay more taxes than they realize. They forget that on top of Federal taxes they pay State income taxes and sometimes City or County income taxes. Then comes the property tax, the sales tax at el.
What do we get? We are the cops of the world and are mortgaged to China.

[Drake]

I've only seen the first 15 or so minutes of SICKO. Isn't the entire film basically about people that HAVE insurance in the US that get stiffed when they need it? So even if you have insurance in America, apparently you may not be protected any more than somebody without it.

[Pleasurepays]

Fact is as far as income tax goes we don't pay all that much more than Americans do. Someone in a high tax bracket here pays in the 40-45% range, and so do high earners in the US.

The difference is we don't have to spend thousands per year on private insurance like they do.

thats not exactly true. what the tax bracket is... and what tax laws allow you to write off and thus the true tax rate one pays, are two entirely different things. although Canadas general tax brackets aren't much higher... what people actually end up paying in taxes is much higher.

i am too lazy to look things up but i am sure you will find that a person making 120,000.00 USD per year in Canada and 120,000.00 USD per year in the US are paying vastly different amounts in taxes. certainly far more than the cost of medical insurance.

only yesterday, i was listening to a lecture from Canada on how the US dollar will/might/can affect Canadas economy, Canadas tax system etc etc etc.

people don't have to spend 1000.00s per year on private coverage here. many people have amazing coverage through their employer... otherwise, it just costs a couple hundred to a few hundred a month for great coverage without having to deal with paying extra 1000s or 10's of 1000's in taxes. and with that, you dont have the issues of socialized medicine.

regardless of what anyone wants to argue about the pro's and con's of either system of health care... it should be clear to any sane person that each system has its pluses and minuses and is more a matter of personal preferrence, rather than what is "clearly working" vs. a system that is "clearly not working"... hence the arguments.

the bulk of our problems in the US have nothing to do with taxes, cost of insurance etc... but rather with a legal system that allows anyone to sue anyone, anytime for any reason and expect huge payouts. a system that breeds ambulance chasing attorneys. a system where drug companies are probably much too powerful a player and a system where people are short sighted and idiotic and came up with the painfully stupid idea of HMO's where the interest of the business and the customer are perfectly aligned (in this case, with costs) and have nothing to do with better care.

[buzzy]

I was mainly reffering to the UK so you're probally right about Canada. Though if you do hit the 40% tax bracket here you can just go off shore so I don't see why people complain about the taxes, mabye some people just have to find something to complain about every situation i guess...

good post

[L-Pink]

Here is the real scam.

Over a 25 year period that I owned my own business I paid not only for good insurance on each employee but I also paid for workers comp. Basically double insuring each worker. Now retired after paying insurance for 25 years and NEVER having a claim except cold medicine, I have a hard time finding anyone wanting to insure a guy that's 50 years old.

Why, well I'm now in a high risk age catagory. Well no shit! But what about the 25 years I paid when I wasn't? That is the sad thing about "old" people and health coverage. Most HAVE paid for it their entire lives, just never used it.

Note; before blaming the health industry look at how much insurance companies drain from the total.

[Damian_Maxcash]

I dont think it matters what your tax bracket or income is.

You get health care in the UK anyway - I thought that was the point of the film?

You are sort of making the point as well by the way you are reacting to this thread.

[SPACE GLIDER]

Plenty to make you proud, but more than enough to get you angry.

This is America.

[CDSmith]

Damn quote feature isn't working so I'll do it manually...

Originally posted by Pleasurepays:
thats not exactly true. what the tax bracket is... and what tax laws allow you to write off and thus the true tax rate one pays, are two entirely different things. although Canadas general tax brackets aren't much higher... what people actually end up paying in taxes is much higher.

No, what I said is pretty much exactly true. There really isn't all that much difference in what we pay in income tax here to that of the US. In some cases it can be somewhat higher, but not as much as people such as yourself would have everyone believe. I know, I live here, I've been paying taxes for over 25 years, and I know a lot of people in the states who've told me how they have it there.

I've compared, and I know. And to be honest, my own accountant/tax/investment guy not only agrees with me but has said it himself on numerous occasions.

i am too lazy to look things up but i am sure you will find that a person making 120,000.00 USD per year in Canada and 120,000.00 USD per year in the US are paying vastly different amounts in taxes. certainly far more than the cost of medical insurance.

Nope. See above.

only yesterday, i was listening to a lecture from Canada on how the US dollar will/might/can affect Canadas economy, Canadas tax system etc etc etc.

No argument there.

people don't have to spend 1000.00s per year on private coverage here.

They may not have to, but they do. In fact, several have posted on this very board over the years about what they pay for medical insurance. I've seen it as low as $100-$200 per month and as high as $600 and yes, a few even said they pay over $1000 a month (probably a family plan). Maybe you're not as in touch with your fellow Americans as you think.

many people have amazing coverage through their employer... otherwise, it just costs a couple hundred to a few hundred a month for great coverage without having to deal with paying extra 1000s or 10's of 1000's in taxes. and with that, you dont have the issues of socialized medicine.

Dude, stop trying to paint the rosey picture here. Many of us have read right on this board the accounts of people whose coverage only covered 70 or 80% of costs and they were left with owing $20k, $40k, $80k etc after a long illness. What about expensive drug treatments that aren't fully covered etc. When you are in the hospital here in Canada ALL of the meds they give you are covered 100% and for all intents and purposes... free. I realise it's not truly free, but like I said earlier... upon your discharge from a Canadian hospital we get NO bill. None.

regardless of what anyone wants to argue about the pro's and con's of either system of health care... it should be clear to any sane person that each system has its pluses and minuses and is more a matter of personal preferrence, rather than what is "clearly working" vs. a system that is "clearly not working"... hence the arguments.

THAT is completely true. Every word. I would never claim to say that Canada's system is perfect, it's far from it. I was merely trying to clear up at least the misconception that we pay "65% in taxes" which is pure bunk, and was pointing out a few of the advantage we have here, and stated that I prefer it here. Period.

the bulk of our problems in the US have nothing to do with taxes, cost of insurance etc...

Tell that to all those who are right now struggling for their lives to pay off a massive medical bill, and all those who are at risk because they can't afford decent coverage.

but rather with a legal system that allows anyone to sue anyone, anytime for any reason and expect huge payouts. a system that breeds ambulance chasing attorneys. a system where drug companies are probably much too powerful a player and a system where people are short sighted and idiotic and came up with the painfully stupid idea of HMO's where the interest of the business and the customer are perfectly aligned (in this case, with costs) and have nothing to do with better care.

No argument on all that.

You make some good points. A few very good points.

[seeric]

i need to marry a canadia beatchhhhhhhh

[Pleasurepays]

Tell that to all those who are right now struggling for their lives to pay off a massive medical bill, and all those who are at risk because they can't afford decent coverage.

what no few want to accept (mostly in the US) is that we live in a society driven by excessive consumerism and what is basically a credit economy. people here are retarded with money and it has long since become a cultural phenominon and economic necessity.

its often those same people that can always afford a new cool cell phone, a nice new car, cool clothes, the latest notebooks, the coolest ipods etc etc etc etc.... are also in that group that "can't afford decent health care"

they are in that group because they choose not to. many choose not to provide it for their children.


so its not a black and white case where everyone is struggling to pay for something they view as an absolute necessity but can't afford it.

we live in a society where it also just isn't a big priority until out of the blue, they are sick or injured and then start the complaining.

[CDSmith]

L-pink said:
Here is the real scam.

Over a 25 year period that I owned my own business I paid not only for good insurance on each employee but I also paid for workers comp. Basically double insuring each worker. Now retired after paying insurance for 25 years and NEVER having a claim except cold medicine, I have a hard time finding anyone wanting to insure a guy that's 50 years old.

Why, well I'm now in a high risk age catagory. Well no shit! But what about the 25 years I paid when I wasn't? That is the sad thing about "old" people and health coverage. Most HAVE paid for it their entire lives, just never used it.

Note; before blaming the health industry look at how much insurance companies drain from the total.

That is a point that neither Pleasurepays nor myself took into account. Fact is, here in Canada the elderly are covered just the same as anyone of any age is.

I'll admit, one of the downfalls our system currently faces is the sometimes long waiting lists for certain types of treatments and tests. However, we are free to head south of the border and pay for it if we think it's necessary to do so.

Most people here aren't 100% happy with Canada's universal health care system, in some cases far from it. But I don't know anyone who would trade with the US. Not a one.

[seeric]

i'm moving and marrying a foreigner.

done deal.

[D]

Yeah, A1r3k, as BP can attest to ()... I felt strongly when I first watched the film, too.

Still kinda do.

The insurance and drug companies in the U.S. are in dire need of an overhaul. At the heart of Americanism is the inherent right to life, liberty, and happiness - and I fail to see how labeling part of our citizenry as "uninsurable" does anything but work against that end.

I truly love this country, but, at times, I thank god that I have my dual citizenship to fall back on if my family or I ever need an easy solution.

[CDSmith]

Pleasurpays said:
we live in a society where it also just isn't a big priority until out of the blue, they are sick or injured and then start the complaining.

Indeed. In fact there are dozens of old threads on GFY where various individuals, nearly every one a US citizen, have had (or supposedly had) a bad illness, or major surgery, or horrible accident, and DID NOT have medical insurance and were now stuck with a huge bill to pay. You know, the donation threads. Please help.

I admit, I did send money to a few of them myself, but I always thought in the back of my mind "who in their right mind would live in the USA and not have health isurance?" But I realize it's not as black and white as all that. Some simply couldn't afford it. A few just never got it, like maybe they were just too cheap to spend the money at the time. Whatever the reason, it's sad when it happens. How does someone making 30 or 40K per year pay off a $150K medical bill? (and still keep one's house, car, life etc)

[seeric]

health care should be 100% covered. everything.

greatest country on earth. PFFFFFT.

my ass.

i bet congressmans don't pay a fucking dime for anything, or their familys.

from the most powerful country on earth, you should expect and demand more as citizens of it.

nothing shy of 100% coverage is acceptable.

[Damian_Maxcash]

i'm moving and marrying a foreigner.

done deal.

Hey A1r3k - I am British and a Kiwi - Two for the price of one - Europe and Australia/New Zealand.

When shall I book the church for? ;)

[L-Pink]

D, how many of those uninsurable are only uninsurable now. How many paid for years but aren't covered because they changed jobs or retired. When most workers retire their health benefits stop. On your own trying to find single person coverage is tough. To get NO credit for the years/decades you have paid is the real crux of the problem for many.

A problem never discussed.

[onlymovies]

Funny....we just watch sicko last night as well. How depressing.
Here's what i'd like to know about from all the people NOT in the USA....

WHAT IS MICHAEL MOORE NOT INCLUDING IN HIS MOVIE??

Are we getting a fair look at how it is outside of the usa? There has to be something that he's not saying or including....

I mean, it can't be that good outside the usa,..........can it??

[buzzy]

Originally Posted by onlymovies

Funny....we just watch sicko last night as well. How depressing.
Here's what i'd like to know about from all the people NOT in the USA....

WHAT IS MICHAEL MOORE NOT INCLUDING IN HIS MOVIE??

Are we getting a fair look at how it is outside of the usa? There has to be something that he's not saying or including....

I mean, it can't be that good outside the usa,..........can it??

Yes you are getting a fair look.

[Ryan St. Germain]

I'm with you on this one; I just watched Sicko a few days ago, and was also disgusted by it. It wasn't even new information to me, but it certainly made it tangiable seeing the way that some people were treated.
This country and more specifically it's governement, are in dire need of drastic change. Considering our reputation on the world stage, and the value of our dollar, I don't know how any politician could have the balls to tell us how great our country is doing.
I think that if our founding fathers saw the way this country is right now, they would bitch slap GWB.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Indeed. In fact there are dozens of old threads on GFY where various individuals, nearly every one a US citizen, have had (or supposedly had) a bad illness, or major surgery, or horrible accident, and DID NOT have medical insurance and were now stuck with a huge bill to pay. You know, the donation threads. Please help.

I admit, I did send money to a few of them myself, but I always thought in the back of my mind "who in their right mind would live in the USA and not have health isurance?" But I realize it's not as black and white as all that. Some simply couldn't afford it. A few just never got it, like maybe they were just too cheap to spend the money at the time. Whatever the reason, it's sad when it happens. How does someone making 30 or 40K per year pay off a $150K medical bill? (and still keep one's house, car, life etc)

for me personally, this is where i am conflicted. like a guy on a street corner asking for money. is it a scam? will he buy booze? is he insane? is he off his medication? does he just make 200.00 a day doing this, so he has no need for a job? will i give him 20.00 to make myself feel better so i can pat myself on the back and say "you know, i'm a good person" knowing in the back of my mind that i just bought him cheap booze?

this was a country that was founded on the idea of the individual and self reliance. as i guess is enevitable, it devolved into a country of people looking where to place blame, where to get a handout etc etc etc.

for me personally, i would like to see the line drawn somewhere in the middle. i don't want to pay for the guy who can always have new 200.00 designer jeans every week and loves clubbing but "can't afford health care" - but i wouldn't mind paying for those who truly need it and can't afford it.

i hate the idea of writing a blank check to be abused... as people tend to do.

i hate sending a message that says "hey, here's one more important responsibility in life that you do not need to be accountable for in any way, shape or form"

[Pleasurepays]

Funny....we just watch sicko last night as well. How depressing.
Here's what i'd like to know about from all the people NOT in the USA....

WHAT IS MICHAEL MOORE NOT INCLUDING IN HIS MOVIE??

Are we getting a fair look at how it is outside of the usa? There has to be something that he's not saying or including....

I mean, it can't be that good outside the usa,..........can it??

here's an idea.

why not break a worldwide stereotype of the average American and invest in a plane ticket and get outside and see how the rest of the world lives so you also have an informed view on how the world works outside of SisterRape, Kansas

[Linkster]

THe biggest problem never discussed about "health care" is that we wouldnt need any part of the system (insurance, coverage etc) if the lawyers had stayed out of the medical field to begin with

When I was growing up (yeah Im an old fart) we didnt have or need health insurance - it DIDNT even exist in the US. The whole reason it was even started is because someone decided to be a fucking idiot and go sue their doctor - they couldnt take the fact that some times humans screw up and make mistakes - and a court allowed that person to be awarded money - the most fucked up thing that has happened in the last 60 years.

This led to doctors being required to carry liability and malpractice insurance - leading to costs skyrocketing - leading to the insurance companies stepping in with health insurance and health groups

When I was growing up you could go to the doctor or the hospital and unless you were below poverty levels (which was already covered in a small form by the US) - you could afford just about anything - including heart surgery etc.

I was one of those that is uninsurable - although Im figuring out the system enough now to get around it - and had two heart attacks - now I didnt come her when they happened other than to try to sell some stuff to cover the bills that added up to over $100k - but more importantly - I found out that if you dont have insurance - every hospital and doctor out there has a contingency that reduces your cost by 90%. This shows how much of a paperwork and office cost has been added into the real cost of medical care in the US.


THE ANSWER - simply stop allowing people to SUE - for anything - this countires society has gotten to the point where the lawyers are running everything for us and if we dont like how life treats us - well then sue someone - that is what is SICK

[WarChild]

Tax rates vary from province to province and state to state. Some states of tax, some don't. Some it's higher, some lower. You get the point. Here's an illustration of the tax differences between Washington State and British Columbia

For our examples we will use two people, both full time employees of a company, both making $100,000 per year. One in Washington State and one in British Columbia. For simplicity, remove currency calculations and say they dollars are at par. We will use 2007 tax tables.

Canadian Tax Table: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individ...axrates-e.html
British Columbia $100,000 Salary:
Federal Income Tax:

-15.5% on the first $37,178 = $5762.59
-22% on the next $37,179 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $37,178 and $74,357), = $8170.58
-26% on the next $46,530 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $74,357 and $120,887), = $6667.18
TOTAL FEDERAL INCOME TAX = $20,635

Provincial Income Tax:
5.7% on the first $34,397 of taxable income = $1960.63
8.65% on the next $34,397 = $2975.34
11.1% on the next $10,190, = $1131.09
13% on the next $16,925, = $2200.25
14.7% on the amount over $95,909 = $601.378
TOTAL PROVINCIAL INCOME TAX = $8868.69

$20,635 + $8868.69 = $29,503 total income tax.

A Person making $100,000 a year in BC will pay a blended tax rate of roughly 29.5% before personal deductions.

United States Tax Table: http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article...164272,00.html
Washington State $100,000 Salary:
Federal Income Tax:
If taxable income is over $77,100 but not over $160,850: $15,698.75 plus 28% of the amount over 77,100 = $22,110.75

NO STATE TAX IN WASHINGTON

A Person making $100,000 a year in Washington State will pay a blended tax rate of roughly 22.1% before personal deductions.

So the tax rate is not that much higher in Canada.

Healthcare? Well, if you're in a job making $100K a year, you're most likely a professional. You'll probably have health care insurance provided by your employer. Lack of universal health care is more of a problem for retail workers and the unskilled. Personally, I'd take the American system. Why? Because I can afford to pay, so I want the best health care available to me immediately and I just don't care about those who can't afford to pay.

[L-Pink]

Here is how a responsible tax paying person runs into what could be financially devastating health issues in the US.

You work for your entire life under a companies health plan. The company paid all or part of your costs, if partial then the difference came out of your check. The company has insurance as an individual you never did, you were under their plan. Now you retire, by law you can continue your insurance coverage for 18 months by paying your former employer each month.

Then that's it. You are now on your own in the American insurance wasteland.

There is no way to continue your insurance on your own. You are forced out. You have to start from square one. Good luck.

[Pleasurepays]

THE ANSWER - simply stop allowing people to SUE - for anything - this countires society has gotten to the point where the lawyers are running everything for us and if we dont like how life treats us - well then sue someone - that is what is SICK

this is my point as well. the conversation about "costs" in the US, should't happen without taking into account the very reasons costs continually soar... and why insurance costs what it does. malpractice insurance is even expensive to the point that doctors are walking away from their own profession in greater and greater numbers because they can't insure themselves and don't want the excessive liability of trrying to actually help people.