FightThisPatent

Great day 2 writeup:
http://www.avn.com/video/articles/30457.html

So what you will about Max's content (and many of you have commented to throw him under the bus), but he is defending himself against some serious charges, that when he wins (and that will be a lot in part due to Sirkin and Douglas keeping the court on track with what the law says and not what the prosecution wants it to say), it is a win for the entire adult biz.

Max said it best in the closing paragraph:

"I'm standing tall because I know I'm in the right," he said. "I'm facing down the government because they have no right to tell the American people what they can watch in their own homes that's made by consenting adults, with consenting adults and for consenting adults."

I've chatted with Max a couple of times, and he's a pretty straight-up, no-nonsense person and i respect the fact that he isn't out holding out his hand to ask other people to help bail him out like some have done before.

This is an important case as it deals with obscenity and the internet in crossing into state lines, for both DVD and digital video. Its not just his DVD's being shipped to Tampa, its also about internet access to his content from his website.


Fight the 1st amendment!

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baddog

I have only watched one video of his and could not finish it. He definitely pushes the envelope. My only concern is, what if he loses?

Of course it is great if he wins, but what about the alternative?

FightThisPatent

One part of the industry (the throw him under the bus side), say that let the extreme content go. The government can go after all of that content first.. will take them years to clean that up....and when they move down to the more mainstream porn, that by then, we'll have evolved to having sex through brain waves and have no need for imagery depictions.



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RayVega

well, It's an important issue and I wish Max good luck. You don't have to agree with what he does to acknowledge that what he is fighting for is as American as it gets.

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baddog

Understood, but doesn't answer my question.


Fight the sidestep.

camgirlshide

I sure hope he wins. Even if he does, it sickens me to think of the amount of money he will need to spend on lawyers.

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RayVega

IMO, it will be case law proving that the government does have the right to determine what is legal and illegal regardless of the age of the people involved or the people watching. Be prepared for a full out "War on porn". Believe it.

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tony286

baddog brings up a good point and question. I wish max the best.

FightThisPatent

ok, so you want me to play arm-chair attorney lol

if he loses, then it sets the precedent that cities and states can define what is obscene to their "community standards", and would put a chilling effect on all porn.

"softcore" or "mainstream" porn can be "obscene" by folks who don't like any resemblance to human fornication. So while Max's video are probably very hard for the jury to watch, and they will probably fine no artistic value in them at all in being grossed out, it is up to sirkin and douglas to remind the jury and the judge about the law and to return the not guilty verdict.

The impact affects both dvd and internet folks. for websites, some guy in some po-dunk town could be truly enjoying the internet video, but some hard-on whacko may have an agenda to rid the world of porn and start badgering his DA to follow suit and file suit like the Max Hardcore case.



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FightThisPatent

and when he wins, he won't get an "i'm sorry" from the prosecutors, nor be able to collect attorneys fees like a civil case.

The "Law" can be a bitch of a bulldozer.. just ask the people who get their homes taken away under "eminent domain"


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FightThisPatent

the tangential path here, is why aren't the prosecutors focusing on the pedophiles and CP freaks who commit physical and internet-based abuses?

This CP stuff is happening in the local areas, not overeas, right in every DA's backyard, and ASACP has tons of data that shows those leads appear to jurisdictions that difference could be made.

Focusing on what consenting adults watch in their home is ridiculous.


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tony286

wanna hear something hard, I think they really dont give a shit about cp or child molesters.When you look at the light sentencing they get it leads me to believe they really dont care at all.

baddog

Well, the one video I did see was implied CP. Kind of like selling a bindle of sugar and flour as coke. While sugar and flour are legal, wrap them up in a piece of paper and sell it for $100 and you now have a crime.

Fight the she wasn't really 13.

GetSCORECash

These obscenity laws are all over America and Max is not the first to be prosicuted under them. The only "safe state" is California at this moment.

It's illegal in the city of Miami to have Anal Sex!

If he loses it will give a prosecutor greater strength to enforce these laws which are on the books in city, county and states all accross the United States.

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baddog

and therein lies the problem. Have you seen any of his videos? Notice any artistic value?

I can think of other test cases I would rather rely on.

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FREE MAX!

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FightThisPatent

There's no money in extreme!


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brandonstills

Wonder if the FSC is helping out at all? Would be in the industry's best interest to not have another obscenity precedent.

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tony286

another great question

MaxCandy

Love em or hate him

He is our "Canary in a Coal Mine"

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DWB

Ahhhhh... wonderful to be an American.

Quentin

The government already has a definition of what is obscene -- it's the Miller test. It's vague, unclear, and worded in a way that is unhelpful to those trying to comply wut the standard, but it has been upheld by the court, again and again.

If you look at state and local obscenity laws, their definition of obscenity generally mirrors the Miller test almost exactly. This is not coincidence -- it is because anything more specific and exact than Miller generally gets shot down in court. The government cannot get *too* specific about what sex acts and types of depictions are patently illegal... I'm not qualified to do the constitutional law analysis to explain the reason why they cannot get more specific, but suffice to say that it isn't as simple as saying "no fisting."

Obscenity cases differ from other criminal cases in at least one important way: the nature of the crime and the statutory definition of "obscene" being what they are, there's little precedent that can be set as to what forms of depictions are patently illegal. Each case rises and falls on its own merits, and the "community standard" as determined by the jury in question.

That's kind of the whole point of Miller; each community decides for itself, on a case by case basis, what is or is not obscene. Sure, if the Tampa jury finds one way or the other, that could prove useful or harmful to one side or the other in future obscenity prosecutions within Tampa, but this jury's ruling has no real relevance to, say, a jury empaneled in Leeds, Alabama two years from now.

Also, as for California being "safe," tell that to Ira Isaacs, who is under indictment on obscenity charges in Los Angeles right now. Don't confuse the fact that paying porn actresses to perform is not considered prostitution under California law with the notion that producers in California are somehow safe from possible obscenity prosecution there.... totally different and separate issue.

- Q.

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_Richard_

I never got why it isn't prostitution..

mikesouth

OK theres a lot of completely offbase speculation here. First State law has nothing to do with this, this is a FEDERAL trial, doesnt matter if its Cali or Utah...Its the feds NOT the state. California is no more safe from federal prosection than Utah is.

Max's statement:
"I'm standing tall because I know I'm in the right," he said. "I'm facing down the government because they have no right to tell the American people what they can watch in their own homes that's made by consenting adults, with consenting adults and for consenting adults."

This trial is NOT about what people are allowed to watch in their own homes, as much as Max or anyone might hope it is if the jurors were to decide that way it would be "jury nullification" which trust me, they know nothing about, nor is it likely the judge will allow them to be educated. What it is about is simple do the videos pass the Miller Test.

The fact that the same judge who ruled that all the videos must be viewed in their entirety now appears ready to reverse that ruling after viewing only 20 minutes of one video says an awful lot.

Still it takes only one juror.

While I do hope Max wins I am not happy about the position this puts the industry in. He is making it much easier for the rest of us to be taken down because of the extreme nature of his content. This trial is highly important because it will be the first time that community standards has been applied in a federal prosecution involving distribution via the internet. Should the extreme nature of the content sway the jury to find it obscene, it's very likely they wont nit pick and say well yes its obscene but we dont think the citizens of Tampa should be determining the standards for the rest of the country because next the feds will use Utah or Alabamas standards.

It's a hail Mary play for the porn industry at best, and the chances of success are about the same.

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It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

tranza

If he looses, he'll probably appeal to a higher court and end up winning.

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theking

"it is up to sirkin and douglas to remind the jury and the judge about the law and to return the not guilty verdict."

What law is it that you are speaking about? It is my understanding that current law as decided by the Federal Supreme Court is in fact that "community standards" apply.

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Pleasurepays

If people in this biz weren't totally retarded, totally disorganized and actually had some guidelines and standards to work and live by this industry wouldn't have many real legal problems. How about not pushing? how about setting some clear, defensible boundaries and staying within them... rather than always challenging the world to shut you down?

There is a difference between drawing the line in the sand, one which you know can be defended and staying behind it and the totally incorrect assumption that anything and everything you do is somehow Constitutionally protected and to keep pushing the most influential groups in this country to shut you down by making sure they always have the ammo they need to keep firing at you until they hit something.

Right now many of you US idiots want to make the argument that shitting on, pissing on, vomiting on, pissing in girls mouths until they choke and cry etc isn't "obscene" or isn't obscene in GodsVillage, Indiana... and most of you then go further to suggest that what he is going through is unfair as if no one really knew that you can't just mail out totally over the top porn with some old wrinkly fuck pissing into a girls mouth until she starts to choke and cry to any state, county and city in the country without a serious risk of being prosecuted.

Really?

The biggest problem with this industry is that it is full of anti-social idiots with a strong resentment for authority. Thats all fine and well when you are rebelling against your alcoholic father who frequently tried to kiss you or watch you take a bath... but it's not hardly a winning formula for the long term success of a controversial industry whose greatest enemies are infinitely more organized, deep pocketed and focused on the simple goal of stopping you and that usually have the public and federal government behind them to do it.

The "rights" you many of you seem to think you have in the US are an illusion. People make the laws. People make the laws against people like you. They can because they know you are weak. You are the low hanging fruit of society. They will attack you because they know no one is going to defend you... because you can't defend yourselves. They will continue to attack you because they can always rely on the fact that you will constantly be throwing whatever offensive thing you do right in their face and daring them to do something about it. And they are fucking you over right now. They are arguing that each one of you is a Max Hardcore,.. no better. A disease in society. Eventually, they will win and you will lose and it will be your fault, because far too many people in this industry are irretrievably damaged, self destructive fuck ups... and because no one will separate you and what you do from the absolute worst of the worst in this biz.

The public doesn't see (and never will see) "good" and "bad" pornographers. They just see "pornographers" and the public perception of you will never be any better than the publics perception of Max Hardcore and some old guy shitting on an 18 year old runaway while she cries. And its not the publics fault. It's your fault. You repeatedly make the choice to defend the worst of the worst in a political and social climate where you will eventually lose. You don't even have the sense to pick and choose battles and choose battles you can win. Instead, you let the worst of the worst in this industry pick a fight on your behalf. Brilliant! Are you fucking kidding me? Eventually you will lose these fights... And once you finally lose... you will lose big because the fight against you will never stop and you don't have the brains or foresight to organize and defend yourselves, set standards and police yourselves. Instead... you are happy doing lines of cocaine off a strippers ass while complaining about who is President and how unfair life is and will just let the Christian Right do it for you.

How will the government restrict your business because you didn't have the brains, foresight and organizational skills to put yourself in a defensible position first? Because in the most important fights, you choose to not have a strong defensive plan or even an offense?

This industry is like a really big, cocky, heavy weight fighter with a glass jaw. Eventually, its going to catch one on the chin and it will be lights out for all. It's not a question of "if"... only "when" .... and why? because most of you stupid assholes prefer to think its your "right" and will keep doing that until its finally decided to take that "right" away because you just can't and won't see the bigger picture.


Obscene: ob·scene
Pronunciation: \äb-'sen, ?b-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin obscenus, obscaenus
Date: 1593

1: disgusting to the senses : repulsive2 a: abhorrent to morality or virtue; specifically : designed to incite to lust or depravity b: containing or being language regarded as taboo in polite usage <obscene lyrics> c: repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles <an obscene misuse of power> d: so excessive as to be offensive <obscene wealth> <obscene waste>

theking

Hear...hear.

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Quentin

You make some interesting and valid points -- but how exactly does the industry go about 'picking' its battles with respect to obscenity prosecutions? The government decides whom to indict, and the lawyers involved have a professional, ethical and legal obligation to defend their clients, and to do so vigorously. The industry's support for people who get indicted is typically rhetorical/verbal in nature, only (it's not like we're all lining up to contribute to the Max Hardcore Defense Fund here, after all....)

When it comes to self-policing, what would you suggest? In an age where becoming a "producer" means having a camera and a means to upload content to the Internet, true self-policing of the industry is a pretty complex and difficult task, to say the least, particularly once you consider the varying international laws and standards.

Should billing companies refuse to process for sites that offer content that is likely to be found legally obscene? (They already do this, to some extent) Should the industry actively "boycott" businesses that offer such content? If that's the plan, where do we draw the line, and who does the drawing of the line, so to speak?

It sounds like what you are advocating is setting up a list of "best practices," establishing a trade organization around those best practices, and enforcing those best practices by excluding and ostracizing producers who do not conform with the ground rules as set by the trade organization... is that about right? Setting aside for a moment the question of whether this industry CAN be motivated to do it, is that essentially what you think needs to happen?

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pornguy

Because we are an easier target. We are not united in any way, and that makes it easy for them to mess with us. I know the CP people are not united, but they are fewer, and harder to find, and they dont want to look bad when they can not actually find the bad guys, so they say we are bad guys.

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Snake Doctor

I agree with your point that the content is indeed extreme. The good news about that is that if they can't convict him on obscenity then they can't convict anyone.

Also, his videos don't have to have artistic value

There are 3 prongs to the Miller test. The burden of proof is on the government. They have to prove him guilty on ALL 3 POINTS.

He only has to prove his innocence on 1. (Actually he doesn't have to "prove" it, but I'm sure you get my point)

Also for the record, it can be literary, political, artistic, or scientific value.

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ADL Colin

I met him in France some years back. I'm pulling for him.

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payd2purv

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baddog

* Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
* Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions[2] specifically defined by applicable state law,
* Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. (This is also known as the (S)LAPS test- [Serious] Literary, Artistic, Political, Scientific).


So, which one do you think the government will fail on?

polle54

I am not sure I can backup what he is doing... for me the most extreme one I saw looked like something that could bring a fragile girl to suicide.

I can't embrace that. That was simply not okay in my mind.. no matter what she signed before the scene was made.

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baddog

After 20 minutes they would probably have the average juror vomiting in the courtroom.

TheDoc

It would be nice for Max to win this case, so the obsenity line is moved away from us.

To me, he was asking for this case. If you are in this Industry, doing what he does, then you know damn well that you don't send super hardcore porn through the mail. It's the quickest way to get nailed - and always has been.

So I expect the Gov to win this case. I feel the average guy will think his content is sick, degrades women, and is generally obscene. It even appears that the majority of Webmasters in this business feel the same way - some even hate max for his content.

The consenting adults angle in obscenity cases is a weak fight. As an example, it is legal to actually have sex with some farm animals in some states. So getting your dick licked by a dog, which isn't hurting the dog, is actually kinda legal. But once you film it, ship it, sell it, ect - it becomes obscene content on all 'consenting' parties.

I know they are different - but either way it's still consenting adults viewing what the average man probably considers obscene. Once the 'average' guy thinks it's to hard - it's over with and a new line has been drawn.

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escorpio

Agreed. I find it almost impossible to stick up for that piece of shit. I would like to see him go down, but not on obscenity because I believe in the First Amendment. But I would LOVE to see one of the models he has abused bring charges against him.

DaddyHalbucks

ASACP did it for CP. So, it can be done.

An "Adult Best Practices" seal might be a very good idea.

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SifuE

I actually read the whole thing, an hope he wins n wins big. This goes much much deeper than just him. Good luck to Max

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Pleasurepays

how did the movie industry do it? they were proactive. they had the brains to understand the problem and the intelligence to organize and solve it. they created a ratings system and they police themselves so the federal government doesn't have to.

i'm not saying thats an answer for porn... but it shows that a similar situation existed, people took a proactive stance to protect their industry and many decades later, no one is challenging them on it.

this industry does the exact opposite. it waits for the wrinkly old disgusting guy to get busted for pissing down a girls throat as she chokes and cryies... then when the thunder comes... 1/2 the people act as if they should be defending it no matter what, or are totally confused as to why a society should be concerned.... as if that makes any fucking sense at all or is going to have any meaningful impact in the big picture of things.... and in the meantime, the next old, disgusting wrinkly fuck is out there doing much worse things, and bringing the same heat again... and again and again.

Pleasurepays

i would say that ANY solution is better than being passive and continually putting the worst of the worst offenders, doing tasteless and very over-the-top things in front of a federal judge and jury, so that judge can then make decisions about YOU and how YOU should run YOUR business.

Mister E

very well said

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theking

I...for one...seriously doubt that the government will fail on anyone of them.

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Quentin

Yes, but ASACP's best practices really only affect whether or not you can join/sponsor ASACP.... those that don't make the cut have not been shut out of the business or cut off from billing (by and large, at least), so there really isn't that much iron in the glove, as they say.

People have tried to establish organizations along these lines before, and they haven't gained much traction. There was Larry Walters' effort some years ago, "Best Practices Adult Video" which Alec Helmy (XBIZ) set up, and there have been others as well.

The way I view things, there are several distinct questions and arguments where obscenity law and other forms of restrictions on speech and expressive conduct are concerned. I wrote about this for YNOT a couple years back -- with apologies to John Stuart Mill for my amateurish summarizing of his immensely important work.

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baddog

Pretty much my point.

Quentin

Believe it or not, the most likely vulnerability to the government's arguments may well be in prong 1 of the test, as strange as that might seem.

If the defense can show (and is allowed to present evidence to the effect) that Tampa residents have been downloading similar materials hand over fist, that could aid their argument that the videos are not patently offensive to enough of the community that the overall community's standard should be interpreted as 'loose' enough to tolerate content like Max's.

It will be tough sell, no doubt, and there's no guarantee that the judge will permit the defense to present such data (assuming that the defense has had the opportunity to gather the data in the first place, and has taken that opportunity), but Jeffrey Douglas, who is one of Max's attorneys in this case, has presented such evidence and made such arguments before, and has had some success in persuading juries that their community's standard is far more accepting of extreme porn than one might think.

This is not to say I think an acquittal is likely, but it certainly would not be the first time a defendant has faced seemingly long odds in an obscenity trial and come out on top. He certainly has very good representation going for him; if you have to step into court to face federal obscenity charges, you can't ask for much better than having Sirkin, Douglas, Kinsley, etc. in your corner.

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Q. Boyer

eightmotives

I highly doubt he will succeed in what he is doing. He is pretty much fighting an uphill battle, the content he shoots can be proven to show that participants are being abused. He will definitely go down for this due to the abuse his models are under during the filming process.

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TheDoc

Agreed... Problem I see though, is the average Webmaster - which is more exposed to hardcore porn - finds his content to be a bit to extreme.

The community would be at the tolerate point if the local porn stores also sell his movies or other similar hardcore related titles, and they are purchased. He sent these through mail - the Internet isn't in question.

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tony286

Well said but it will never happen in 100 yrs. I wish Max the best it has to really suck for him.