Gun experts: opinion please - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

PornNewz · 10-22-2008, 04:24 PM

Kimber Custom II. My Fav, very well balanced.

sltr · 10-22-2008, 04:32 PM

1911, whole different gun and very very nice

mikesouth · 10-22-2008, 04:34 PM

look you guys are making my case here...a combat situation you dont use a fucking pistol unless you have no other choice. Can I hit an 8x8 target in one shot at 30 feet...if I couldn't I would use that shot gun you are talking about.

A handgun is a self defense weapon meant for close range if you need a .50 or 16 shots instead of 7 or whatever you will probably just find yourself dead because you weren't proficient with your weapon.

If you routinely need to shoot through windshields or car doors to defend yourself you may be able to make an argument but I assure you I can kill you just as dead with a .22 subsonic hollow point as I can with a 50mm artillery round. and it wont take me but one shot either way.

whatever you shot...practice practice practice.

AndreaM · 10-22-2008, 04:40 PM

If you're awakened at 3am, and stumbling about, you're probably at home, which means you're most likely to be shooting at a range of 15 feet or less. If you can't hit center mass at that range, you're better off with a shotgun for home defense. Or - practice combat shooting. It isn't really hard to improvise.

If you only have access to a range, practice 3 round bursts, 2 to the chest, 1 to the head. Shoot one handed with each hand. Shoot leaning around the range wall, using it for "cover." Start your target at 25 yards, and have a buddy work the pulley for you, advancing the target for 3 seconds then pausing, and advancing again.

If you have access to somewhere outside (like in the middle of the desert) - fill up 2liter bottles with water, put them at various heights over a distance, walk your course and a brisk pace, moving and shooting. It's a lot different than a perfect stance at a range.

Yeah - I know I'm just a girl - but I can shoot a 240/300 at 25 yards. 30 rounds in 30 seconds. ;)

sltr · 10-22-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

look you guys are making my case here...a combat situation you dont use a fucking pistol unless you have no other choice. Can I hit an 8x8 target in one shot at 30 feet...if I couldn't I would use that shot gun you are talking about.

A handgun is a self defense weapon meant for close range if you need a .50 or 16 shots instead of 7 or whatever you will probably just find yourself dead because you weren't proficient with your weapon.

If you routinely need to shoot through windshields or car doors to defend yourself you may be able to make an argument but I assure you I can kill you just as dead with a .22 subsonic hollow point as I can with a 50mm artillery round. and it wont take me but one shot either way.

whatever you shot...practice practice practice.

that's a much different post than the one where you call people idiots and they shouldn't be shooting if they can't hit the target at 30 feet with a 9mm.

i go to the gun club at least 2x a month and shoot at least a box of 9's, a box of .17hmr and as many shottie shells as my shoulder allows and i can tell you 30 feet is a fucking long distance for the 9mm.

mikesouth · 10-22-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

that's a much different post than the one where you call people idiots and they shouldn't be shooting if they can't hit the target at 30 feet with a 9mm.

i go to the gun club at least 2x a month and shoot at least a box of 9's, a box of .17hmr and as many shottie shells as my shoulder allows and i can tell you 30 feet is a fucking long distance for the 9mm.

No it isnt the point is the same if you cant make a head shot that 50 caliber isnt going to help you, thus you have no business shooting with a pistol. period. grab a scatter gun or a street sweeper

.22, 9mm or 50mm artillery its all equally deadly and if you cant hit what you are shooting at you have no business shooting any of them defensively, you'll just end up dead most likely.

If you think you need a .45 instead of a 9mm to kill someone yer an idiot. what you need is the ability to hit your target and the willingness to pull the trigger without hesitation if you have to.

baddog · 10-22-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

so is the frame size different or is it just a 16 round mag?

The frame size is the same. Apparently, the standard magazine has lots of empty space but this one is set up to hold two stacks. So they made the magazine with that intent.

BTW, if anyone needs ammo, and lives in SoCal I have access to a lot of 223, 308, 357 magnum, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 rounds.

Selling for $15/box.

L-Pink · 10-22-2008, 09:12 PM

H&K 45 ........ my favorite, shoot on average 150 rounds EVERY week.

sperbonzo · 10-22-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

No it isnt the point is the same if you cant make a head shot that 50 caliber isnt going to help you, thus you have no business shooting with a pistol. period. grab a scatter gun or a street sweeper

.22, 9mm or 50mm artillery its all equally deadly and if you cant hit what you are shooting at you have no business shooting any of them defensively, you'll just end up dead most likely.

If you think you need a .45 instead of a 9mm to kill someone yer an idiot. what you need is the ability to hit your target and the willingness to pull the trigger without hesitation if you have to.

I'm going to repost again, and there is extensive evidence that your comments regarding the equal lethality of all calibers is NOT correct... EXCEPT in a head shot.... But as I posted before:

I would submit that in a combat situation, the chances of getting a fast clean head shot are not very good, between the less than perfect situation, (re: lighting, movement, body position, etc...), and the fact that your adrenal glands are pumping like fire hoses, your shot placement accuracy will drop on average of AT LEAST 20%.

This is why center mass shooting is the most practical target in a real world deadly force encounter, as it allows for this natural degradation in accuracy when not in "range" conditions. Since you are then shooting for the torso, caliber and energy transfer (or lack of it due to over-penetration), make a BIG difference in terms of cavitation wounds to the body cavity, and the subsequent drastic and immediate drop in blood pressure.

(Speaking here as ex-army, ex-MCSO reserve deputy, and having read a bit on the subject).

With all that being said, I personally carry a Ruger P90 .45acp. Built like a boat anchor, never had a stoppage, always goes where I point it, ...and I practice.

.

NickB. · 10-22-2008, 09:27 PM

I stick with colt .45 - custom - best one I fired so far besides the magnum, Id just look like a cowboy walking around with that LOL

L-Pink · 10-22-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

I'm going to repost again, and there is extensive evidence that your comments regarding the equal lethality of all calibers is NOT correct... EXCEPT in a head shot.... But as I posted before:

I would submit that in a combat situation, the chances of getting a fast clean head shot are not very good, between the less than perfect situation, (re: lighting, movement, body position, etc...), and the fact that your adrenal glands are pumping like fire hoses, your shot placement accuracy will drop on average of AT LEAST 20%.

This is why center mass shooting is the most practical target in a real world deadly force encounter, as it allows for this natural degradation in accuracy when not in "range" conditions. Since you are then shooting for the torso, caliber and energy transfer (or lack of it due to over-penetration), make a BIG difference in terms of cavitation wounds to the body cavity, and the subsequent drastic and immediate drop in blood pressure.

(Speaking here as ex-army, ex-MCSO reserve deputy, and having read a bit on the subject).

With all that being said, I personally carry a Ruger P90 .45acp. Built like a boat anchor, never had a stoppage, always goes where I point it, ...and I practice.

.

The stopping power and shock factor when struck by a 45 is devastating. Period.

EscortBiz · 10-23-2008, 01:11 AM

for life and death situations only trust revolvers

james_clickmemedia · 10-23-2008, 05:36 AM

I am an H&k USP & glock 30 guy.... Also 40 & 45 are my caliber of choice.
The only reason to get a 9mm is price of ammo IMHO.

Anthony · 10-23-2008, 06:19 AM

mike south, u r being an idiot

I've taken alot of training in firearms. Combat shooting using time to set off the adrenal response. I'm a fucking awesome shot. Once adrenal dump hits, it changes to the worse.

It sounds more like you want everyone to know how great a shot you are, and frankly that type of advice will someday get someone killed. There is one rule in a gunfight. Kill the other fucker. Doesn't matter if it's a .45, 9mm, .40 or .22

Oh, and as my SAS instructors also say, "you can't have too many bullets in yer gun".

fuzebox · 10-23-2008, 08:19 AM

I've shot Dirty Danza's XD40 and loved it

thehand · 10-23-2008, 09:02 AM

If you plan an carying it, I like the Firestar S&W 40 - its very compact

This is my home protection Red Hawk 44 revolver (it wont jam:-):

DirtyDanza · 10-23-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzebox

I've shot Dirty Danza's XD40 and loved it

whats funny is you chose that over the HK

both great guns...

for those saying .40 is too much

Fuzebox's wife was shooting my full size HK .40 cal no prob no complaints...

brand0n · 10-23-2008, 10:33 AM

Got it, love it.

Vendzilla · 10-23-2008, 11:10 AM

Geez, everyone is talking about 30 ft range and head shots
It's a pistol, in defense, you'll be shooting from the hip more than likely and aiming for center mass, not the head, if you have time to aim, it's not self defense and if they live, you used the wrong pistol round.

baddog · 10-23-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

Geez, everyone is talking about 30 ft range

I have to admit, I thought that was the funniest. This isn't for drive-bys.

sltr · 10-23-2008, 11:21 AM

1 person is talking about headshot @ 30 feet, everyone else is saying doesn't happen tht way

Iscari0t · 10-23-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

Unless you are a cop.

http://lasdreserve.org/ is a decent way to get a concealed carry permit if you live near a station.

baddog · 10-23-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iscari0t

http://lasdreserve.org/ is a decent way to get a concealed carry permit if you live near a station.

Yeah , , , , ummm, I don't think so.

DirtyDanza · 10-23-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

1 person is talking about headshot @ 30 feet, everyone else is saying doesn't happen tht way

headshots at 30ft is really easy to do.. in a controlled situation...

like I said before im NRA cert expert with a pistol and I would not even try a head shot at 30ft unless I snuck up on someone... even then if you have time to sneak up you had time to sneak away

and the one who said shotgun is best for home is wrong as well...

now you got buck in your 12 and the bad guy is holding your kid in his arms... shotgun has to much spread and it is much argued weather it is good or not for home...

personally I have 2 kids.. my 12 is loaded this way..

empty so I have to rack it.. thats an audible warning to an intruder and will stand up in court..

then I got beanbag as my first shot.. then buck shot then bird shot buck shot bird shot..

reason being.. if I have to take that first shot while a bad guy has my kid I got my bean bag.. after that it's game on I guess... hope the bean bag works LOL

also have my pistol which I can hit damn near anything with.. although the other day I missed the target all together at 21ft which ive never done in my life.. how it happend I have no idea... the 100's of thousands of rounds I shot ths was the worst I have no idea where it went....

L-Pink · 10-23-2008, 11:42 AM

Couple things to note,

* The average hallway is what 20 feet?

* The average room is at best 20 feet wide?

* An intruder can cover that distance in a second.

* You will barely have time to point and shoot, forget aiming.

* You will probably have time for one shot, two at best.

* Most fights end up a wrestling match this is true with someone wounded as well.

* A 45 will likely send the person hit into shock even if just winged.

* A 45 will send someone into shock when hit even if he's wearing a vest.

* In event of a gunfight you can shoot the fucker thru the wall he's hiding behind. (with 45)

.

sltr · 10-23-2008, 11:43 AM

that's pretty much what i stated earlier,

i don't have kids- i count on shottie mcboomerson for home protection.

thehand · 10-23-2008, 01:22 PM

Reserve Deputy Sheriffs are issued a badge, an identification card, uniforms, a Beretta 92FS duty weapon, handcuffs, baton, and most other necessary equipment.

Reserve Deputy Sheriffs have full peace officer powers when on duty, and, if issued a CCW permit, may choose to carry a concealed weapon when off duty.

Reserve Deputy Sheriffs volunteer 20 hours per month of their time with the regular compensation being one dollar per year.

Reserve Deputy Sheriffs may also qualify for shooting bonus pay of up to $32.00 per month.

sltr · 10-23-2008, 01:25 PM

fuzebox · 10-23-2008, 01:48 PM

I love GFY gun threads

This is when you learn what % of GFY is actually Rambo in disguise.

Fucksakes · 10-23-2008, 01:49 PM

have anyone here ever had someone break into there homes?

I leave my house and the doors unlock.. I sleep with them unlock.

and if someone broke into my house.. it would most likely be kids.. but if it was someone with a gun.. Id let them take whatever they wanted.. "not my kids".. but that has never happened around here. and thats what we have house insurance for.

I don't even think I am allowed to have a gun here in Canada for protection.. only for hunting reasons..

fuzebox · 10-23-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fucksakes

have anyone here ever had someone break into there homes?

I leave my house and the doors unlock.. I sleep with them unlock.

I have bars on the front windows, an electric fence surrounding the property, and 24/7 armed security

Vendzilla · 10-23-2008, 02:52 PM

I just like shooting guns, it's fun, use to shoot guns with my daughter before she went into the navy, I own several guns, but if someone broke into my home, I would probably grab a base ball bat before a pistol, who knows?

Fucksakes · 10-23-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

I just like shooting guns, it's fun, use to shoot guns with my daughter before she went into the navy, I own several guns, but if someone broke into my home, I would probably grab a base ball bat before a pistol, who knows?

I once feared an ex of my current girlfriend.. and I bought myself a bat.

to this day.. we are friends and I got him working on my basement :P

glad I didn't kill him.

Vendzilla · 10-23-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fucksakes

I once feared an ex of my current girlfriend.. and I bought myself a bat.

to this day.. we are friends and I got him working on my basement :P

glad I didn't kill him.

Yeah, I don't want to shoot someone if I can help it, I've always loved going to a range and going thru 500 rounds of ammo, I feel really good afterwards. I have an AR-15 and I can go thru 500 rounds pretty fast with that

sltr · 10-23-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendzilla

Yeah, I don't want to shoot someone if I can help it, I've always loved going to a range and going thru 500 rounds of ammo, I feel really good afterwards. I have an AR-15 and I can go thru 500 rounds pretty fast with that

the ar-15 is a great weapon, i've been known to give them out as year end bonuses. here's a pic of cheff jeff with the bushmaster carbonlite ar with holographic site that i gave him for a year end bonus when he worked for me.

AndreaM · 10-23-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sltr

the ar-15 is a great weapon, i've been known to give them out as year end bonuses. here's a pic of cheff jeff with the bushmaster carbonlite ar with holographic site that i gave him for a year end bonus when he worked for me.

I wanna work for you!

brand0n · 10-23-2008, 06:55 PM

my bushmaster with eotech
my partners xd 40 subcompact and a note to our scary progger lol

10-22-2008, 04:24 PM	#51
PornNewz Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 851	Kimber Custom II. My Fav, very well balanced. __________________ Pornnewz.com PR Round up, No one is safe!

10-22-2008, 04:34 PM	#53
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,334	look you guys are making my case here...a combat situation you dont use a fucking pistol unless you have no other choice. Can I hit an 8x8 target in one shot at 30 feet...if I couldn't I would use that shot gun you are talking about. A handgun is a self defense weapon meant for close range if you need a .50 or 16 shots instead of 7 or whatever you will probably just find yourself dead because you weren't proficient with your weapon. If you routinely need to shoot through windshields or car doors to defend yourself you may be able to make an argument but I assure you I can kill you just as dead with a .22 subsonic hollow point as I can with a 50mm artillery round. and it wont take me but one shot either way. whatever you shot...practice practice practice. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

10-22-2008, 04:40 PM	#54
AndreaM Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: City of Lost Angels Posts: 174	If you're awakened at 3am, and stumbling about, you're probably at home, which means you're most likely to be shooting at a range of 15 feet or less. If you can't hit center mass at that range, you're better off with a shotgun for home defense. Or - practice combat shooting. It isn't really hard to improvise. If you only have access to a range, practice 3 round bursts, 2 to the chest, 1 to the head. Shoot one handed with each hand. Shoot leaning around the range wall, using it for "cover." Start your target at 25 yards, and have a buddy work the pulley for you, advancing the target for 3 seconds then pausing, and advancing again. If you have access to somewhere outside (like in the middle of the desert) - fill up 2liter bottles with water, put them at various heights over a distance, walk your course and a brisk pace, moving and shooting. It's a lot different than a perfect stance at a range. Yeah - I know I'm just a girl - but I can shoot a 240/300 at 25 yards. 30 rounds in 30 seconds. ;) __________________ Engagement Marketing/Brand Development K2Dynamics, Inc. [email protected] \| ICQ: 40794650 \| skype: andreajmata

10-23-2008, 01:11 AM	#62
EscortBiz Fuck Checks, CASH only! Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 19,422	for life and death situations only trust revolvers __________________ Spanking, Medical Fetish, Sleeping, Strap-on Anal Lesbians, Girls Fucking Guys, Handjob site REAL HOT, Shemales, Anal and Ass Licking sites 100% Real EXCLUSIVE with amazing retention, ccbill payouts, lots of content FREE FTP HOSTING Promote the largest and oldest member paid escort site, Converts 10 times better then any dating site, CCBill payouts ICQ# 158802076

10-23-2008, 05:36 AM	#63
james_clickmemedia Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Texas / London Posts: 2,204	I am an H&k USP & glock 30 guy.... Also 40 & 45 are my caliber of choice. The only reason to get a 9mm is price of ammo IMHO. __________________ $ CLICKMEMEDIA.COM $ CONVERTING ETHNIC TRAFFIC SINCE 1998 ~ $30+PPS BLACK-X.COM - NEW BLACK EX-GF SITE CLICKMEMEDIA.COM ~ ICQ - 8788771

10-22-2008, 04:32 PM	#52
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	1911, whole different gun and very very nice

10-22-2008, 09:12 PM	#58
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,151	H&K 45 ........ my favorite, shoot on average 150 rounds EVERY week.

10-22-2008, 09:27 PM	#60
NickB. Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,855	I stick with colt .45 - custom - best one I fired so far besides the magnum, Id just look like a cowboy walking around with that LOL

10-23-2008, 06:19 AM	#64
Anthony Keyboard Warrior Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: One of the outer rings of Hell Posts: 9,653	mike south, u r being an idiot I've taken alot of training in firearms. Combat shooting using time to set off the adrenal response. I'm a fucking awesome shot. Once adrenal dump hits, it changes to the worse. It sounds more like you want everyone to know how great a shot you are, and frankly that type of advice will someday get someone killed. There is one rule in a gunfight. Kill the other fucker. Doesn't matter if it's a .45, 9mm, .40 or .22 Oh, and as my SAS instructors also say, "you can't have too many bullets in yer gun". __________________

10-23-2008, 08:19 AM	#65
fuzebox making it rain Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: seattle Posts: 22,031	I've shot Dirty Danza's XD40 and loved it

10-23-2008, 09:02 AM	#66
thehand 235 Pound Gorilla Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,467	If you plan an carying it, I like the Firestar S&W 40 - its very compact This is my home protection Red Hawk 44 revolver (it wont jam:-): __________________ Tim Siner Who the Fu#k is TimSiner?

10-23-2008, 10:33 AM	#68
brand0n been very busy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: the queen city Posts: 26,983	Got it, love it. __________________ want to buy this spot for cheap? it is of course for sale. long term deals are always the best bet. brand0n/ at/ a o l dot commies.

10-23-2008, 11:10 AM	#69
Vendzilla Biker Gnome Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: cell#324 Posts: 23,200	Geez, everyone is talking about 30 ft range and head shots It's a pistol, in defense, you'll be shooting from the hip more than likely and aiming for center mass, not the head, if you have time to aim, it's not self defense and if they live, you used the wrong pistol round. __________________ Webair died? Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants think about that

10-23-2008, 11:21 AM	#71
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	1 person is talking about headshot @ 30 feet, everyone else is saying doesn't happen tht way

10-23-2008, 11:42 AM	#75
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,151	Couple things to note, * The average hallway is what 20 feet? * The average room is at best 20 feet wide? * An intruder can cover that distance in a second. * You will barely have time to point and shoot, forget aiming. * You will probably have time for one shot, two at best. * Most fights end up a wrestling match this is true with someone wounded as well. * A 45 will likely send the person hit into shock even if just winged. * A 45 will send someone into shock when hit even if he's wearing a vest. * In event of a gunfight you can shoot the fucker thru the wall he's hiding behind. (with 45) .

10-23-2008, 11:43 AM	#76
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191	that's pretty much what i stated earlier, i don't have kids- i count on shottie mcboomerson for home protection.

10-23-2008, 01:22 PM	#77
thehand 235 Pound Gorilla Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,467	Reserve Deputy Sheriffs are issued a badge, an identification card, uniforms, a Beretta 92FS duty weapon, handcuffs, baton, and most other necessary equipment. Reserve Deputy Sheriffs have full peace officer powers when on duty, and, if issued a CCW permit, may choose to carry a concealed weapon when off duty. Reserve Deputy Sheriffs volunteer 20 hours per month of their time with the regular compensation being one dollar per year. Reserve Deputy Sheriffs may also qualify for shooting bonus pay of up to $32.00 per month. __________________ Tim Siner Who the Fu#k is TimSiner?

10-23-2008, 01:25 PM	#78
sltr Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,191

10-23-2008, 01:48 PM	#79
fuzebox making it rain Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: seattle Posts: 22,031	I love GFY gun threads This is when you learn what % of GFY is actually Rambo in disguise.

10-23-2008, 01:49 PM	#80
Fucksakes Shit... Fuck! What the Hell? Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,567	have anyone here ever had someone break into there homes? I leave my house and the doors unlock.. I sleep with them unlock. and if someone broke into my house.. it would most likely be kids.. but if it was someone with a gun.. Id let them take whatever they wanted.. "not my kids".. but that has never happened around here. and thats what we have house insurance for. I don't even think I am allowed to have a gun here in Canada for protection.. only for hunting reasons..

10-23-2008, 02:52 PM	#82
Vendzilla Biker Gnome Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: cell#324 Posts: 23,200	I just like shooting guns, it's fun, use to shoot guns with my daughter before she went into the navy, I own several guns, but if someone broke into my home, I would probably grab a base ball bat before a pistol, who knows? __________________ Webair died? Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants think about that

10-23-2008, 06:55 PM	#87
brand0n been very busy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: the queen city Posts: 26,983	my bushmaster with eotech my partners xd 40 subcompact and a note to our scary progger lol __________________ want to buy this spot for cheap? it is of course for sale. long term deals are always the best bet. brand0n/ at/ a o l dot commies.