Ford, GM Chrysler

[mmcfadden]

How will that effect YOU if they go under?

My prediction would be at a minimum 10 years of economic hard times.

[kane]

If they just cease to exist it will be very bad for this country. If they are forced into bankruptcy and can operate as they restructure it will be bad, but it won't be nearly as bad as it could be.

[mmcfadden]

Originally Posted by kane

If they just cease to exist it will be very bad for this country. If they are forced into bankruptcy and can operate as they restructure it will be bad, but it won't be nearly as bad as it could be.

i've been in the housing market and felt the shit for years now... now EVERYONE is feeling it...

I don't think 34 billion is enough because the economy aint turning around in '09. Bandaids on bandaids...

[Big Joe]

How much would 34 billion be divided by each legal US citizen? Or all the money that was supposed to help thus far?

[KillerK]

not very much

They need to give like 10 trillion dollars and then people would have some cash

[kane]

Originally Posted by mmcfadden

i've been in the housing market and felt the shit for years now... now EVERYONE is feeling it...

I don't think 34 billion is enough because the economy aint turning around in '09. Bandaids on bandaids...

I heard today that the car makers have admitted that the total they could need could approach somewhere in the area of 100 billion. That is a lot of money. At least they have said they are willing to give some concessions like selling jets and executive pay cuts and they are open to strict supervision and oversight. Unlike most of the bailouts this would be a loan and last time the government loaned car companies money they got it back faster than expected.

I personally think the economy will bottom out sometime in January. Right now we have the holidays and people are spending money and kind of ignoring problems as much as they can. After the new year the bills for the holidays will come due, all the extra Christmas workers will be let go and thins will be ugly. Hopefully once the market bottoms out Obama and his team will have a good plan in place to get things jump started quickly.

[siccmade]

Without GM I lose my day job.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by kane

I heard today that the car makers have admitted that the total they could need could approach somewhere in the area of 100 billion. That is a lot of money. At least they have said they are willing to give some concessions like selling jets and executive pay cuts and they are open to strict supervision and oversight. Unlike most of the bailouts this would be a loan and last time the government loaned car companies money they got it back faster than expected.

I personally think the economy will bottom out sometime in January. Right now we have the holidays and people are spending money and kind of ignoring problems as much as they can. After the new year the bills for the holidays will come due, all the extra Christmas workers will be let go and thins will be ugly. Hopefully once the market bottoms out Obama and his team will have a good plan in place to get things jump started quickly.

100 billion will not save them. No cars are sold. Why help a dead company. Let it go down. New ventures will start. Next generation cars wont come from Detroit but from Palo Alto.

[kane]

Originally Posted by grumpy

100 billion will not save them. No cars are sold. Why help a dead company. Let it go down. New ventures will start. Next generation cars wont come from Detroit but from Palo Alto.

I guess, in the end, it depends on what their restructure plan is. If they are actually going to make major changes within their companies and positions themselves in a way that allows them to compete in the future I think saving them is a good thing. If they are just going to use the money to keep them afloat for a few more years in hopes that the economy picks up and people start buying again then no, they shouldn't get the money.

If they fail other car companies may sprout up, but I think the damage done to our economy would greatly reduce their chance of succeeding and competing. People will still buy cars. They will just buy honda or Toyota or whatever is still out there. You could even argue that those companies will grow because they will be getting new customers who were previously loyal to one of the big 3. If a new company comes along they will have to have the capitol to start up, build a nationwide sales team (I suppose they could buy up the vacant property from the failed big 3) and then convince the American people to buy their cars in a large enough number to help keep them around. That is not going to be an easy thing to do. when it comes to cars people like a name they know. Names like ford and chevy and jeep and honda and toyota have been around for decades and have built a following and the trust of the buyer. Something new will have to compete with that and during an economic down turn it will be very hard.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will be very difficult for them to succeed and last. I think it is worthwhile to look into helping these car companies. After all they are looking for a loan, not a handout like the banks and financial companies are. We should at least take a long look at it and determine what is best for them and the country as a whole.

[kane]

Originally Posted by grumpy

100 billion will not save them. No cars are sold. Why help a dead company. Let it go down. New ventures will start. Next generation cars wont come from Detroit but from Palo Alto.

Oh, one other thing. Cars are sold, just the numbers are falling off right now because the big 3 allowed themselves to fall in love with big SUVs and trucks. They convinced half the nation that they need a big SUV or truck when 95% of them don't and then they made those gas guzzlers and sold them in mass. Then gas went up to over $4.00 a gallon and those SUVs suddenly didn't look so great. Gas is cheaper now but most people feel it will be going back up so they are not buying the big cars anymore. Add into that the price tag (many of these cars are 35-40K and more) and people just can't or won't spend that much on a car right now.

So the perfect storm of high gas prices, a bad economy and their lack of vision in developing smaller more economical cars that could compete with the Honda's and Toyota's of the world put them in a very bad spot.

[bellybuttonlint]

1. the federal reserve is a PRIVATE BANKING CONSORTIUM.
2. these banks hold incorporation status since the 300 fucking years ago.
3. your a fucking slave that is under the illusion that your free..in every sense of the word.
4. THIS IS ALL ABOUT POPULATION CONTROL
5. todays world is a global economy, you would think the average joe shmoe would see that and say " gee wiz martha, its a power struggle. the world is up for grabs!!! time to get a fucking cannon, stock up on all the essentials, prepare for the worst and try to ride it out so we atleast have a chance"

paper is worthless.
gold and silver? tapped out and dropping
oil? dropped
stones? dropped

anything of worth has lost its value.
the WORLD IS fucking bankrupt. and can never repay the debt.

ANYTHING THAT HAD WORTH , doesnt anymore..and if it did regain its worth back...the fucking debt is so huge IT CANT BE REPAID
holy fucking shit at how fucking dumb you people are!

hurry run!, cnn has another broadcast!

you dumb fucking idiots, when will you realize this?

[- Jesus Christ -]

Originally Posted by bellybuttonlint

1. the federal reserve is a PRIVATE BANKING CONSORTIUM.
2. these banks hold incorporation status since the 300 fucking years ago.
3. your a fucking slave that is under the illusion that your free..in every sense of the word.
4. THIS IS ALL ABOUT POPULATION CONTROL
5. todays world is a global economy, you would think the average joe shmoe would see that and say " gee wiz martha, its a power struggle. the world is up for grabs!!! time to get a fucking cannon, stock up on all the essentials, prepare for the worst and try to ride it out so we atleast have a chance"

paper is worthless.
gold and silver? tapped out and dropping
oil? dropped
stones? dropped

anything of worth has lost its value.
the WORLD IS fucking bankrupt. and can never repay the debt.

ANYTHING THAT HAD WORTH , doesnt anymore..and if it did regain its worth back...the fucking debt is so huge IT CANT BE REPAID
holy fucking shit at how fucking dumb you people are!

hurry run!, cnn has another broadcast!

you dumb fucking idiots, when will you realize this?

[Nikki_Licks]

It seems since tough times have hit and the economy is in the shitter, banks tightening up on loans and such, they have made it pretty tough for anyone to buy a new car now or even get a loan.

I remember when almost anyone could get in a new car with a not so good credit rating. The last I had heard, the general rule of thumb is that you have to have a credit rating of 750 or higher to even be considered for an auto loan.

So I guess what I am getting at, is with the hard times and people losing or could be losing their homes , jobs or just people just tightening up.......there won't be that many people buying new cars?

I think the Big 3 drove those businesses into the ground and will probably do the same given the chance again. They knew this was coming along time ago and really did nothing to try and prevent it. When times were good, they had a huge opportunity to sell to a big audience and failed. Now they want a chance to sell again to an audience that may not be there.....

I doubt there is even a chance that they can do anything good at this point. They have produced crap cars for years, their customer service totally sucks and I don?t think they cared about the customer. We lost faith and gave up on American Car Manufactures? many years ago. Now my wife and I drive foreign autos.

If we give them a bailout, maybe a personal guarantee on that loan from each Executive would help some. If they really feel their new scheme will work and they are that confident, then they should show some good faith and put up some collateral. While they are at it, they can liquidate some high ends items they don?t need?..like all those private corporate jets.

One thing for sure, it truly is a sad situation the workers are in.



Just my

[nico-t]

let them die, its natural economics, they fucked up with producing gas guzzling inefficient low quality cars for decades - im surprised it took this long. The rest of the world moved forward, now with the shitty state of the US car industry they have no choice to compete with european and asian cars... see it as a fresh start, over time this will be best for them.

This is the fault of the elite as usual. Oil, gas guzzlers so there is huge ongoing demand for oil, thats what made the US car industry it is today. This scheme of big companies and government elite was bound to blow up in their face.

[hjnet]

Originally Posted by bellybuttonlint

1. the federal reserve is a PRIVATE BANKING CONSORTIUM.
2. these banks hold incorporation status since the 300 fucking years ago.
3. your a fucking slave that is under the illusion that your free..in every sense of the word.
4. THIS IS ALL ABOUT POPULATION CONTROL
5. todays world is a global economy, you would think the average joe shmoe would see that and say " gee wiz martha, its a power struggle. the world is up for grabs!!! time to get a fucking cannon, stock up on all the essentials, prepare for the worst and try to ride it out so we atleast have a chance"

paper is worthless.
gold and silver? tapped out and dropping
oil? dropped
stones? dropped

anything of worth has lost its value.
the WORLD IS fucking bankrupt. and can never repay the debt.

ANYTHING THAT HAD WORTH , doesnt anymore..and if it did regain its worth back...the fucking debt is so huge IT CANT BE REPAID
holy fucking shit at how fucking dumb you people are!

hurry run!, cnn has another broadcast!

you dumb fucking idiots, when will you realize this?

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by grumpy

100 billion will not save them. No cars are sold. Why help a dead company. Let it go down. New ventures will start. Next generation cars wont come from Detroit but from Palo Alto.

and thats the EXACT thing they are going to stop..

I think that one thing we may see is someone like Bill gates stand up and buy one or more of the companies once they ask a reasonable price. Sadly it will start to make money, but when you try to start the car you will get a blue screen..

[Rochard]

How many jobs has the US lost this year? Wasn't it like 1.5 million?

How many does the big 3 have working for them? It's more than 1.5 million..... Imagine doubling the amount of people unemployed over night.

[xmas13]

The world is coming to a fucking end.

2012......................

[Dollarmansteve]

Originally Posted by grumpy

100 billion will not save them. No cars are sold. Why help a dead company. Let it go down. New ventures will start. Next generation cars wont come from Detroit but from Palo Alto.

hahahahahahahaha this is my favorite thing that people are saying. That some upstart company (ie tesla, whom i assume you are referring to) is going to save the car industry. Let's look at some facts

a) Tesla can't build a car for much less than $100k
b) Tesla doesn't know how to mass produce automobiles, yet a company like GM can sell, oh $190 Billion dollars worth of mass-prodiced cars
c) Tesla can't source a transmission for their car that lasts more than a few thousands miles. Electric motors have MASSIVe torque that is not rpm dependent, ie they shred the shit out of transmissions.
d) Try getting 1,000,000 sets of batteries in 1 year to mass produce electric cars.

It doesn't matter whether cars are electric or gas-egnine powered, they still have to be manufactured and assembled. Im sure Tesla has a cute 'factory' now, with lots of fancy silicon-value trimmings and what not, but they have no infrastructure to actually build cars.

Elon Musk can have all the money in the world, but he doesn't have the intellectual capital of about 250 combined years of mass producing cars. Tesla or any other start-up company will NEVER build 1,000,000 electric cars in one year, not without the help of a major automotive manufacturer. In fact, he has recently been poaching employees from the autmotive industry to help solve the massive manufacturing problems he's encountering. He's realizing that just becaue you founded paypal sold it to ebay, it doesn't make you the messiah of all business.

[grumpy]

i wasnt talking about Tesla, just saying the cars will come from totally diffrent companys then we know now.

Its also is the ignorence of the directors flying over in private jets asking for the bailout.

They have to start produce diffrent cars then they have been producing over the last 25 years. When the ricers started to appear in the streets, that should have ring a bell.

[TheDoc]

What they should do is give me and a team I pick, power over all 3 companies and within 6 months I will have all 3 turning profits. Within a year one would over take as the leader again.

Those are probably some of the worst setup and ran Corporations in this Country. I really feel they have set this all up on purpose, thinking they would get an easy bailout like before, access to more easy money, all so they can keep sucking the companies dry every chance they can.

[Dollarmansteve]

Originally Posted by grumpy

i wasnt talking about Tesla, just saying the cars will come from totally diffrent companys then we know now.

Its also is the ignorence of the directors flying over in private jets asking for the bailout.

They have to start produce diffrent cars then they have been producing over the last 25 years. When the ricers started to appear in the streets, that should have ring a bell.

Fair enough.. I guess i just wanted to have a tesla rant

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by Rochard

How many jobs has the US lost this year? Wasn't it like 1.5 million?

How many does the big 3 have working for them? It's more than 1.5 million..... Imagine doubling the amount of people unemployed over night.

If they go bankrupt someone will buy them. There would only be a short term job loss.

[mmcfadden]

Originally Posted by Rochard

How many jobs has the US lost this year? Wasn't it like 1.5 million?

How many does the big 3 have working for them? It's more than 1.5 million..... Imagine doubling the amount of people unemployed over night.

1.2 million in 3 months...

The U.S. recession deepened last month as U.S. companies shed jobs at the fastest pace since the early 1970s, pushing the unemployment rate to its highest level in 15 years. Nonfarm payrolls fell a larger-than-expected 533,000 in November, the U.S. Labor Department said Friday. The economy has lost more than 1.2 million jobs in the past three months. Here, President-elect Barack Obama?s statement on the jobs report:

The 533,000 jobs lost last month, the worst job loss in 34 years, is more than a dramatic reflection of the growing economic crisis we face. Each of those lost jobs represents a personal crisis for a family somewhere in America. Our economy has already lost nearly 2 million jobs during this recession, which is why we need an Economic Recovery Plan that will save or create at least 2.5 million more jobs over two years while we act decisively to maintain the flows of credit on which so many American families and American businesses depend.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by mmcfadden

1.2 million in 3 months...

maintain the flows of credit on which so many American families and American businesses depend.

The problem not the answer.

[Vendzilla]

Maybe I would care if they didn't assemble the cars in Mexico or Canada. Toyota's are more american now than Dodge and Ford

[adult-help]

You are too pessimistic. European auto manufacturers are having troubles too.

[Kudles]

Not exactly sure

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by Biddy

Not exactly sure

bot is not that good

[kane]

Originally Posted by Rochard

How many jobs has the US lost this year? Wasn't it like 1.5 million?

How many does the big 3 have working for them? It's more than 1.5 million..... Imagine doubling the amount of people unemployed over night.

Experts say that the job losses will be far more reaching than just the direct employees of the big 3 because there are many companies that manufacture parts for them that will go under and other companies that contract to them that will go under. Some say the real number is somewhere around 3 million. Others say that 3 million is a number a number created by the big 3 and is way over inflated. Either way I would guess the real number is somewhere between 1.5 and 3 million and that would not be good for us. Not only is that just job losses, but many of these workers have spent many years working for these car companies and when that job goes there is not another job like around so they will be forced to either take a much lower paying job in some other field or go back to school and learn something new. Neither of those is an inviting situation if you have a family and a life that you have built around the job you have. Chances are many of these people will end up bankrupt.