Azoy?

OK here is how i see it. Doesn't matter if you buy an American car or not or if you believe in the long term American auto industry or any of the American car manufactures or not, the administration as well as congress and the senate should without blinking an eye give them the support they need in this tough economy and a chance to move forward to revive them self.
The United States is spending so much money in Iraq without thinking twice and much more then the money that the auto industry is requesting with no end to the spending in site for the war in Iraq yet when the American industry who is employing American people paying American taxes to the American government is asking for help they say to them "we'll see what we can do".
What the fuck is that ?
These are American jobs (more then a million jobs at that) in the automotive industry. Fuck what is that when the government you pay taxes to says to you "we will spend money oversees on people who hate us yet to you the American tax payer who needs our help we will think about it."
Don't know about you but it pisses the hell out of me when the government doesn't take care of it's own but spends the money oversees on people who will never add any value, contribute anything to the American economy or pay any taxes to the American government.
Am I wrong people ? Please share your thoughts.

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potter

Well look at it this way. GM made the same sales last year as Toyota. Ford this year, is projected to have the same profit increase as Toyota.

So for a moment - keep in mind American sales aren't the reason these companies are loosing money.

Now understand this. The American auto makers are currently paying 20 years retirement to their employees. Meaning people who retire, still get paid for twenty more years.

Also, with the American auto makers their employees are under a union. The current average for mechanics is $78/hour - which includes their benefits. That's $150,000 per year for each mechanic.

This might put into perspective a little bit on why the American auto makers need a bailout right now. The economy and market cannot support those wages. This is why the American auto makers are in such debate with the union right now.

Ok. Now that we've cleared that up. Realize, that right now the American auto makers face a huge problem. A problem in which money cannot fix. Giving the auto makers more money - only supports them enough to not go bankrupt right now. They're still going to have the same problem after they receive the bailout. They'll just need another bailout in the coming months.

This is why congress is having such a hard time with this particular bailout. It won't solve the problem. It'll delay the problem for maybe a year at best.


...... Also. Congress did just bailout the credit system. With 700 billion dollars. So your point is kind of null and void. The government did take care of it's own, go read a newspaper.

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potter

Oh, and a lot of people feel the first of the US Auto Makers to file Chapter 11 will prevail. Under Chapter 11 (bankruptcy) the company may stay intact however readjust all their holdings and financial processes. Meaning, they could dump the union and rehire their entire staff as non-unionized employees.

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tony286

they dont get paid $78 dollars an hour for the 500th time.Also foreign car companies in the place where the bulk of their workers dont have to pay for pensions or healthcare because they are government supplied.

tony286

I agree with you Azoy? they gave the banks 350 billion no jumping thru hoops and 150 billion to aig no jumping thru hooping. But for 15 billion its all the blue collar guy who busts his asses fault.

potter

Sorry dude, it's not like it's hard information to find.

(check out the bolded areas)

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...2_FORTUNE5.htm

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baddog

He said "which includes their benefits." Is that really hard to believe?

tony286

did you actually read the bold you meant for me. The guy on the line doesnt make 78 dollars an hour. A reporter took all they pay out and divided it among the ones that are working now and everyone ran with it but thats not what the guy working there now makes. Sorry

tony286

here read it again thats not what the current employee makes
The $78 figure, however, includes hourly wages, medical benefits and pension payments for hourly workers, along with medical benefits and pension payments for hundreds of thousands of retired workers.

GatorB

I hope you people realize that when companies fail to pay on the pensions the promise the US governemnt does. There is a program specifically for that. So if you think by not giving them a loan, beause that's what they are asking for, a LOAN, not a bailout that the taxpayer is saving money you are delusional because the taxpayer is still footing the bill.

Snake Doctor

That $78 figure (which seems to get bigger every time I see it, at first it was $70, but I digress) includes retiree benefits....which are deferred compensation....which would be like Toyota booking an expense today for workers they paid 20 years ago.

The problem is an accounting rule from ERISA that was passed in the mid 1980's, which bascially allows companies to grossly underfund pensions and assume unrealistic returns on investment...this means that companies like GM have been underfunding their pension plans for the past 20+ years, and have to make up for it now....the "catch up payments" that they are making now, because of their 20+ years of mistakes, is a big part of that $78/hr figure.

Today's UAW worker doesn't take home much more in pay and benefits than their non-union counterparts in the South (those non-union workers only make the good wages they do because their employers fear the UAW anyways....but that's another discussion)

So now everyone wants to UAW to take a massive pay and benefits cut...basically ask retirees to take smaller pension checks and give up their health care. Well that's bullshit.
The retirees should be first in line in a bankruptcy (unfortunately our bankruptcy laws aren't written that way..and retirees get fucked in the ass when a company files Chapter 11)

Making retirees take a cut would be like the company my father worked for seizing half of his savings today or putting a lien on his house because they're having financial problems today and they obviously "overpaid" him while he was working.
Underfunded pensions and health care accounts are the fault of management over the past 20-30 years, not the fault of the workers

This whole idea that potter is putting forward that this is all somehow the union's fault is just right wing propaganda. It's a red herring just like the corporate jets were.
It's the right wing trying to find a way to justify letting 3 million people lose thier jobs because those 3 million people mostly vote Democrat......whereas the banking lobby and insurance lobby can have all the bailouts they want because we know whose campaigns they fund and what lever they pull on election day.

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Azoy?

I was just stating a point. No need to be rude asshole.

The government doesn't take care of its own when it has to take weeks to decide if it will give the automakers employing American workers paying American taxes which supports the American government and the elected officials salaries a loan or bailout or whatever you want to call it.

The government doesn't take care of it's own when soldiers coming back from the war do not have a place to turn to and all of a sudden they are the forgotten once who the government turns a blind eye to.

The government doesn't take care of it's own when it spends so much money on a war without blinking it's eye to save people who hate you and your guys and would kill you at the first chance they could.

The government doesn't take care of it's own when it sends troops into battle without proper equipment or accessories to properly defend them self.

The government doesn't take care of it's own when it sends troops into a war that is orchestrated and no real reasons ever existed for the over 4000 man and women killed in the line of duty. Tell the mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, husband, wife's that the government takes care of it's own. You may not get the answer you believe it to be.

Bottom line the government needs to step up and for once act for the interest of the people who voted for them by not only giving these loans but saying to the rest of the world that "we stand by our industry and our people".

How do you think it looks to the rest of the world when the government questions and takes so long to reply to the American industry request for assistance?
Other governments are stepping up to offer assistance to their auto makers and it's time the congress, senate and president grow some balls and stand up for the American worker.

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Snake Doctor

This isn't true.
Car makers weren't in trouble last year or the year before.
The fact that consumers aren't spending money because they're scared of a depression and the banks won't lend money to most of the consumers who do want to buy a car isn't Detroit's fault.

These are the Main Street consequences of the Wall Street melt down.

Does Detroit need to renegotiate with the union? Yes....they already did, spent half of the year doing it. The labor cost difference between Detroit cars and Foreign cars built in the South will be about $250 per car once the new contract takes effect.

They also need to build more fuel efficient cars....these take time to develop, but they're already in the pipeline. They need some help to get from here to there, and when the economy is in the situation it's in, you can't turn your back on 3 million good paying jobs.

I understand having a moral problem with bailing companies out. I personally have a big moral problem with it...the banking bailout, the whole mess.
But there's ideology and there's what's practical.
Morally speaking, letting Lehman Bros go under was the right thing to do....practically speaking, it was the dumbest fucking thing the Treasury has done in the last 79 years.

Maybe bankruptcy and restructuring are inevitable for Detroit....but this is the worst possible time for that to happen. If the economy were otherwise sound (circa 1995 or even 1985) then the right thing to do would be to leave them on their own....but today, in this economy, they should get some help from the government IMHO.

If they do eventually end up bankrupt, I'm sure Uncle Sam will be first in line at the bankruptcy court to be repaid before any other creditor.

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Mr. Billy

Stop bashing unions. The businesses want to turn you against them. The Car companies have made much money even as they pay union wages and benifits. They simply have gone out of their way to work with the big oil companies to support the sales of low mileage inefficient cars that keep Americans dependant on oil and the oil companies. They are working to keep big oil in business. They could produce cars that get better mileage, but they have fought it with every ounce of their being. They could be competitive but they prefer to rely on a product line that is vulnerable to the whims of oil companies, which puts us, in turn, at the whim of oil producing nations outside of our borders.

Remember, in the USA, you might not be a union member yourself, but it was unions that got the 40 hour work week for everyone, and breaks and vacation and sick leave a whole lot of other things that make your workplaces safer and more tolerable. Employers will gladly treat you all like shit when they get the chance to. Ha ha yes go ahead and let them convince you to get rid of the unions!

Super Negro

the oil industry should bail out the car industry

kane

To me it is pretty simple. We spend around 10 billion a month in Iraq for which we are not getting anything back and probably never will. We take 3-4 months of what we spend in Iraq and loan it to the auto makers. Work with them to streamline and restructure their companies and help them get profitable and in return we get our money back and millions of people have jobs (and we get cars).

Normally I would say that if a business fails that is the system. Not everyone succeeds. However, in this case, the economy is already hurting and having the auto makers fail would only worsen the problem.

I am reminded of a line from a great movie called "I am trying to break your heart." It is a movie about the band Wilco and the making of the classic album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. In it they are arguing over the mix of a song and basically the argument comes down to either keeping it as it is or remixing it. If they remix it there is no guarantee they will like it any more and it will cost them about $1,000. One of the guys in the band says, "Just mix the song. This band has wasted $1000 on much stupider things."

I think making this loan to them is a small price to pay for helping out an American institution and three companies that helped build this country and in our time of need helped build the equipment used to defend it.

Mr. Billy

I think Super Negro us a genius! I'm surprised nobody has thought of this.

Given the behavior of the car companies and their support of big oil, by fighting mileage improvements and alternative energy technologies, It seems only fitting that big oil should be a major player in any automotive company bail out.

Super Negro

I can't take credit, Ashton Kutcher mentioned it on Real Time With Bill Maher a few weeks ago, it was brilliant

crockett

Toyota hasn't worked inside the US as long as GM or Ford. They don't have the years of retirement and benefits that they have to pay out here at their US plants. Toyota's are also generally more expensive then their Ford or Chevy counterparts.


IMO I think it's sicking that politicians will hand over hundreds of billions to wall street crooks that produce nothing but debit, yet argue and belittle the only industry in America that actually builds something over a few billion.

Yea the big 3 fucked up but so did every one else it seems.. so why are the auto manufactures the ones paying the price. With all the jobs they create, they are a needed asset.

I wonder how much these politicians will be complaining when the big three have to close their plants and then re open them south of the boarder in a few years when the economy comes back.

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In November, you can vote for America's next president or its first dictator.

tranza

All around money!

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I'm just a newbie.

Azoy?

Or worst yet having the voters throw the politicians out of office because they refused the auto makers car loans these people that put the economy of the state they are in, the people and the other stores depending on those workers out of business creating an even bigger hold in the economy while spending the money on a war that should have never taken place.
Gee thanks Mr. Politician for fucking up the American economy and taking your citizens with you motherfuckers.

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