So about this U.S bailout. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Fletch XXX · 02-10-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

Know any people with savings in the bank or a private pension?

both my mom and step dad have been talking about the money that is now gone from their 401k.

between the two its well over 100k theyve told me. my mom was quite upset about it, she has always been anti-politician and even more so now.

TheDoc · 02-10-2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregE

The great depression lasted for ten long years.

Were it not for WWII the conventional wisdom is that it would have lasted a hell of a lot longer.

And, while we're on the subject of WWII, consider if you will that had the depression been shorter and/or milder it's quite possible that there never would have been a WWII. Hitler barely had enough support to come to power as it was and Japan's aggression in Asia was (in their eyes) about gaining enough natural resources to become economically self-sufficient and thereby depression proof.

Trust me, if the world sinks into another great depression what follows will be damn ugly.

Perhaps even as ugly as it got during the last one

It was not the war that pulled us out. The jobs the war created revitalize the economy, that was already moving ahead.

They drafted 15 million + people and forced them into war to lower the unemployment rate. During this time, Americans were 'FORCED' to work, no strikes allowed, money was controlled. Before the depression was over, employment levels and production levels, were returning to the levels before the depression, the eco was turning around on it's own and through other regulations.

Then War came, they forced Americans to serve and work, forced the unemployment level to drop, and try to count that as saving the Country. You HAD to work, even if it wasn't forced the cost of living was so high that the entire family (over and under the limits at the time) were FORCED to work.

Our Country was only in a recession, removed from the depression, when we went to war.

We aren't close to a depression... Not even .000000001% close. Not the worst state in the entire Country, at 15% unemployment is even close to depression or even some of our harder recessions.

Snake Doctor · 02-10-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmiDean

I think at least at this point we are in better shape in Canada due mostly due to the fact we have been paying down our debt for the last ten years and the fact that our housing loans and banks are very heavilly regulated by the goverment so no sub prime mess or bank collapse.
However on the job front we had the largest one month job loss in 32 years in January.
.

Well you guys sell alot of goods to the U.S., so obviously our situation is going to hurt you...but you're lucky that there have been no bank failures, your country has had a budget surplus for several years, your national pension system has been fixed (unlike our social security) and even if you do lose a job you won't have to spend all of your unemployment insurance just to keep your health care like you would here.

BlackCrayon · 02-10-2009, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

the TRUTH is that nothing should have been done, no bailouts of anybody any industry - where on god's green earth is it written or decreed that because you are born on the soil of a country named the United States that you deserve and are owed the affluence to own a single dwelling home, two cars and all the shit you see at the mall? it's not - but that is the mindset of a big majority, this sense of entitlement that if they float through life and are willing to make the supreme sacrifice of working 40 hours a week they deserve 'the American Dream'.

the only way to change that thinking is to understand that dream isn't guaranteed or owed, don't fucking drop out of school at 17 and start knocking up chicks and littering the world with more losers, marrying and divorcing and expecting some mighty corporation like General Motors to reward your failure with a job that pays 30 dollars an hour for doing work a trained monkey might be able to do and certainly a robot can.

Tough times build character, you'd see people whipping themselves into shape, teaching themselves and learning new skills, becoming entrepreneurs, corporations more on the ball, more innovative, if what should happen - happened.

Corporations need to be held accountable, Joe SixPack needs to be held accountable, politicians need to be held accountable, Wall Street held accountable - racking up trillions of dollars of more debt certainly isn't gonna fix shit - because it will do nothing to solve the fundamental problems that drove the economy off the cliff.

Nobody wants to take the bad tasting medicine. They want a Messiah to fix it all up. Obama surely isn't that and nothing is going to be fixed.

And I'm not a right wing oriented person really. I've never bought any of the rhetoric and blackmail coming from the rich that taxes and government regulation will stifle growth and investment - where are they going to run off to? Canada? Europe?

They need to pay their fair share - why there's still no flat tax is beyond me. But to blame this whole catastrophe on Wall St, the corporations, the rich - no way. There's 50 million or so morons out there who deserve their fair share of the blame.

People won't starve, there will be roofs over their heads - they just won't have a 52" HD TV, cellphones for their themselves and their kids, restaurant meals - boo fucking hoo -

I knew kids growing up who never ate in a restaurant until they were living on their own and making a living. Their families got by on what the old man earned. And the old man was always inevitably some dude who dropped out of high school, got married young and had a bunch of kids and all he was qualified to do was some retail salesman job or low level office job. The lucky ones got decent paying factory work.

I really don't think regressing is a good thing. If you like living in a home with no running water, no indoor plumbing and occaisionally having to steal to eat, have fun. This was life for my mom growing up and was pretty common at the time.

Pleasurepays · 02-10-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

I really don't think regressing is a good thing. If you like living in a home with no running water, no indoor plumbing and occassionally having to steal to eat, have fun. This was life for my mom growing up and was pretty common at the time.

that's all such bullshit. if your mom grew up in some village in Malaysia... fine. sucks for her, sorry to hear it.

if your mom grew up in the US.. fuck her. she had a choice. i grew up around nothing but filipino/mexican/vietnamese immigrants. these people came from the other side of the world, had less than nothing, grew up sleeping on dirt and living on rice or tortillas... and did WHATEVER it took to get out, get jobs, saved money, brought family, saved more money, bought homes, cars businesses etc... all while inbred idiots in this country look down on them for "taking their jobs" and while blacks blame racism for their issues.

never heard a mexican blame everything on racism
never heard a vietnamese immigrant complain about being "disadvantaged"
never saw a filipino immigrant bitch about life not being fair

they just work to make a better life for themselves.

they understand something americans have long forgotten... that when you want it... and want it bad enough and are willing to work for it... everything is possible.

the funniest irony about the rhetoric about "the american dream" is that its almost never americans actually getting off their ass, dusting themselves off, pulling themselves out of poverty and building a better life for themselves. they are too busy watching NASCAR, monster trucks and WWE while suing McDonalds for making them fat and demanding that Obama make their lives better.

like Mutt... i'm a humanist. i believe in people. its shame so few believe in themselves and each other.

nation-x · 02-10-2009, 09:10 AM

I think that PleasurePays and Mutt have a very low opinion of their fellow Americans and have made sweeping generalizations about them. In reality, the majority of Americans are hard working people who DON'T overspend.... but are finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.

You two (and those that hold the same opinion) must be insulated from reality. A reality where a huge percentage of our manufacturing base has left our country and that loss has trickled down to millions of average Americans... Including millions of small business owners who are having to close their shops because the local economy has gone to shit. There is your Trickle Down Economics in a nutshell.

You have an elitist attitude toward other people and furthermore are mere parrots of the elite class that rules the Republican Party...

The Industrial Revolution killed your theories of "help yourself" in large part because during a 20-30 year period there was a huge paradigm shift where 95% of Americans stopped working for themselves and started working for others. Our country was largely supported by agriculture at that time... fast forward to now... there is no possible way for those 95% to go back to being self supporting because there is no demand for their services when they have to compete with huge multi-national corporations and global supply.

The basic problem with the "conservative" position is that it is a narrow minded position where the strongest survive. That era is over. Without the consumer... there is no strongest... the conservative view is wolf pack mentality.

Snake Doctor · 02-10-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

I think that PleasurePays and Mutt have a very low opinion of their fellow Americans and have made sweeping generalizations about them. In reality, the majority of Americans are hard working people who DON'T overspend.... but are finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.

True dat.

In the 1970's real incomes for Americans became stagnant or declined.
We maintained our standard of living by having both spouses work full time.

Then later, we maintained our standard of living by both spouses working longer and longer hours.

Most recently, we maintained our standard of living by going into debt. This was fine as long as property values continued to rise, but that couldn't last forever.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...013003116.html

(BTW, if anyone is really interested in the truth about the decline of the middle class without all of the Lou Dobbs xenophobia bullshit, you should google Elizabeth Warren, a Harvard professor who has done some really great research in this area.)

Of course while the middle class has been grabbing their ankles for the past 30 years while someone keeps telling us how good we have it......the rich have gotten their tax breaks, their deregulation, and their free trade deals that have allowed them to ship our jobs overseas and turn their deca-millions into billions.
Now through the miracles of free market innovation we have a financial system about to collapse because of something called a credit default swap, millions of people are losing their jobs through no fault of their own and now we're going to be told we're greedy and have a sense of entitlement because we want our kids to eat or be able to see the doctor when they get sick?

Gimme a fucking break.

PseudoPrime · 02-10-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

they just work to make a better life for themselves.

they understand something americans have long forgotten... that when you want it... and want it bad enough and are willing to work for it... everything is possible.

the funniest irony about the rhetoric about "the american dream" is that its almost never americans actually getting off their ass, dusting themselves off, pulling themselves out of poverty and building a better life for themselves. they are too busy watching NASCAR, monster trucks and WWE while suing McDonalds for making them fat and demanding that Obama make their lives better.

Bullshit. Fucking myth... "Just get up and pull yourself out of poverty". People living in poverty need help to do that. But, lets cut welfare, food stamps, health care, child care, education spending, access to student loans. Then with no support system in place it's their fault.

adultspeech · 02-10-2009, 11:40 AM

Both sides of the aisle have debated whether or not FDR's policies worked for the economy, but one thing that cannot be refuted is that FDR helped to restore confidence. And, that is a powerful thing.

When confidence in the economy is gone, everything goes to hell in a handbasket. Take the stock market drop for example. "Money" didn't go anywhere. It's still there. The guy holding the stock that dropped in price may think money disappeared, but it didn't. The person from whom he bought the stock received money for that stock. The MONEY is still there.

What happens is that confidence levels dropped. When that happens, people hold onto the money they have (if they can) and they don't spend it. It doesn't go into circulation and is not used for purchasing goods and services. This in turn causes the providers of those goods and services to realize less revenue. Less revenue means that the provider cannot afford to maintain the employment of its workers. Layoffs follow which leads to high unemployment and even less confidence. This is a vicious cycle that can only be mitigated when confidence is restored.

The Obama Administration knows this. It's Econ 101. If one can restore confidence, then money will enter circulation faster than if circulation were reliant on basic needs alone. The very act of passing a stimulus plan will, hopefully, have some effect on confidence. This is why there is a sense of urgency from the administration.

Confidence is key.

Pleasurepays · 02-10-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

I think that PleasurePays and Mutt have a very low opinion of their fellow Americans and have made sweeping generalizations about them. In reality, the majority of Americans are hard working people who DON'T overspend.... but are finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.

You two (and those that hold the same opinion) must be insulated from reality. A reality where a huge percentage of our manufacturing base has left our country and that loss has trickled down to millions of average Americans... Including millions of small business owners who are having to close their shops because the local economy has gone to shit. There is your Trickle Down Economics in a nutshell.

You have an elitist attitude toward other people and furthermore are mere parrots of the elite class that rules the Republican Party...

The Industrial Revolution killed your theories of "help yourself" in large part because during a 20-30 year period there was a huge paradigm shift where 95% of Americans stopped working for themselves and started working for others. Our country was largely supported by agriculture at that time... fast forward to now... there is no possible way for those 95% to go back to being self supporting because there is no demand for their services when they have to compete with huge multi-national corporations and global supply.

The basic problem with the "conservative" position is that it is a narrow minded position where the strongest survive. That era is over. Without the consumer... there is no strongest... the conservative view is wolf pack mentality.

americans are finding it increasingly difficult to "make ends meet"

really?

huh?

here's a few ideas that might help those who find themselves in this predicament

1) stop living beyond your means
2) stop living on credit cards like a fucking idiot
3) stop buying the coolest phones and nicest clothes and biggest wheels as a priority over health care and saving
4) stop your excessive consumerist bullshit

the "poor" in this nation are living like royalty compared to actual poor people in the world. "poor" people anywhere else dont have a car, nice tv's, mobile phones etc. they are actually "poor" and don't have anything.

your view is the typical liberal/socialist/communist mentality... "you don't know whats best for yourself and you're not capable of making good decisions or taking adequate care of yourself... so lets get government in there to run your life and make those decisions for you and protect you from yourself because government knows best"

Pleasurepays · 02-10-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adultspeech

The Obama Administration knows this. It's Econ 101. If one can restore confidence, then money will enter circulation faster than if circulation were reliant on basic needs alone. The very act of passing a stimulus plan will, hopefully, have some effect on confidence. This is why there is a sense of urgency from the administration.

Confidence is key.

"Confidence" plays a short term, minor role. the actual mathematics of inflation and debt are what matter over the long term. people aren't going to make bad investments, invest in a tanking currency and/or economy for the long term because Obama gave a speech. that's not how financial markets work.

Snake Doctor · 02-10-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

"Confidence" plays a short term, minor role. the actual mathematics of inflation and debt are what matter over the long term. people aren't going to make bad investments, invest in a tanking currency and/or economy for the long term because Obama gave a speech. that's not how financial markets work.

No, confidence plays a huge role. It's not because Obama gave a speech, it's because someone is in charge whom people feel is competent and because he's going to "do something"......the parallels with FDR are too numerous to list.

People felt like Hoover didn't care and was in over his head. People felt like FDR cared and that he was doing something to make their lives better.

Confidence is huge...consumer confidence is one of the leading economic indicators. When consumers have confidence in the future of the economy, they're more willing to spend and invest. When they have no confidence, the bunker mentality prevails.

BTW, your line about people aren't going to make bad investments?

How the hell do you think we got in this mess? People bought overpriced houses they couldn't afford, got mortgages from banks who sold those bad investments to the bond market, and the bond investors bought credit default swaps to insure against mortgage defaults.
All of those were bad investments, trillions of dollars worth, made by both average consumers and so-called investment geniuses.

Pleasurepays · 02-10-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake Doctor

BTW, your line about people aren't going to make bad investments?

How the hell do you think we got in this mess? People bought overpriced houses they couldn't afford, got mortgages from banks who sold those bad investments to the bond market, and the bond investors bought credit default swaps to insure against mortgage defaults.
All of those were bad investments, trillions of dollars worth, made by both average consumers and so-called investment geniuses.

i meant people buying debt and investing in the financial markets to pay for printing 1.3 trillion dollars. "confidence" plays a role in the financial markets in the short term and has a short term influence.. not over the long term and in dealing with self created inflation and devaluing the existing investments in our debt. i am talking about what it takes to actually finance 1 trillion dollars we don't have and recovering from the consequences of printing that money. a compelling speech doesn't change the economics of the value of investing debt... and that's how debt is financed.. its financed by investors and those willing to invest.

and you're right.. the whole system went totally sideways for a long chain of reasons in the housing market/lending. no one complained.. no one cared. everyone on every level was happy to grab what they could and eager to get into homes they couldn't afford... that's precisely why the entire system should have been allowed to crash.

instead, we are going to have more regulation, more oversight, more rules, more legislation, more government and idiots that should have never bought a house they couldn't afford to begin with are going to be allowed to keep those horrible investments at the direct expense of tax payers.

lesson learned?

simple..

"its not your fault"

nice

$5 submissions · 02-10-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

i grew up around nothing but filipino/mexican/vietnamese immigrants. these people came from the other side of the world, had less than nothing, grew up sleeping on dirt and living on rice or tortillas... and did WHATEVER it took to get out, get jobs, saved money, brought family, saved more money, bought homes, cars businesses etc...

You just described my family, bro. I lived in the US for 24 years before moving back to the Philippines.

onwebcam · 02-10-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

We aren't close to a depression... Not even .000000001% close. Not the worst state in the entire Country, at 15% unemployment is even close to depression or even some of our harder recessions.

They aren't counting unemployment the same way now as they did then. The real numbers.

Snake Doctor · 02-10-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

i meant people buying debt and investing in the financial markets to pay for printing 1.3 trillion dollars. "confidence" plays a role in the financial markets in the short term and has a short term influence.. not over the long term and in dealing with self created inflation and devaluing the existing investments in our debt. i am talking about what it takes to actually finance 1 trillion dollars we don't have and recovering from the consequences of printing that money. a compelling speech doesn't change the economics of the value of investing debt... and that's how debt is financed.. its financed by investors and those willing to invest.

There are investors standing by waiting, begging, to finance that debt. Rates on treasuries right now are half a percent.
Half a fucking percent. People are willing to pay for the opportunity to own treasury bills.

There's a shitload of chicken money out there looking for a home, and adding 10% to our national debt at a time when there's a capital flight to safety is hardly going to be the inflationary death spiral you think it'll be.

Deflation would be the much bigger problem, considering how leveraged we are to begin with.

You can make the moral hazard argument all you want and I agree with most of it...but at the end of the day saving the innocent is more important than punishing the guilty.

potter · 02-10-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

americans are finding it increasingly difficult to "make ends meet"

really?

huh?

here's a few ideas that might help those who find themselves in this predicament

1) stop living beyond your means
2) stop living on credit cards like a fucking idiot
3) stop buying the coolest phones and nicest clothes and biggest wheels as a priority over health care and saving
4) stop your excessive consumerist bullshit

the "poor" in this nation are living like royalty compared to actual poor people in the world. "poor" people anywhere else dont have a car, nice tv's, mobile phones etc. they are actually "poor" and don't have anything.

your view is the typical liberal/socialist/communist mentality... "you don't know whats best for yourself and you're not capable of making good decisions or taking adequate care of yourself... so lets get government in there to run your life and make those decisions for you and protect you from yourself because government knows best"

Your view is so far off.

The problem started with the collapse of the housing bubble. Plus the credit bubble.

The problem isn't as you say, people are "living beyond their means". The problem is, those people with "debt", "credit". What have you are PAYING THAT OFF.

Let's say you have one hundred people. Those people have tons of credit and a house worth X. Their house = their "financial backing". They purchase lots of shit on credit because their house and income makes it affordable. They're not living outside their means, their living within the economy's current financial situation.

Now. The bubble pops. Their house is no longer worth X. SO instead of buying all this new shit every month. They begin to pay off that credit. They can still afford their bills and they were not living beyond their means. However because their house has plummeted in value they can no longer rely on it and must pay off their credit instead of spending that money elsewhere.

Let's say 25% of the population begins doing this. Business slowly starts to die off. People are not spending their money to buy shit anymore. They're spending their money to pay off the shit they've already bought.

Business #1 goes under. 1% of the population just lost their jobs.

NOW you have a serious problem with bad credit. 1% of people are now no longer able to pay their mortgages and credit off. This effects the credit market, making the economy tank even more.

People become more tight with their money and begin to spend even less. Money goes to bare essentials and paying off credit.

More businesses go under, and more jobs are lost. The cycle gets worse and worse. This is where we are at right now.

--------------------------------------------
What these "stimulus packages" are meant to do is to revive failing companies and combat the loss of jobs. It backs the bad loans and credit that is no longer being paid. So the credit market does not plummet even further.

The point is to ward off the end result of a terrible depression. Until people can retain their jobs and income long enough so they've paid off enough credit and saved enough. So that they begin to again SPEND MONEY. As that is the problem right now, no one is spending money. And the majority of those with enough to spend, are spending it on their credit and debts. We need people to get to a point where they no longer need to save and spend on credit/debt, but spend on goods and services again.

02-10-2009, 11:40 AM	#59
adultspeech Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 66	Both sides of the aisle have debated whether or not FDR's policies worked for the economy, but one thing that cannot be refuted is that FDR helped to restore confidence. And, that is a powerful thing. When confidence in the economy is gone, everything goes to hell in a handbasket. Take the stock market drop for example. "Money" didn't go anywhere. It's still there. The guy holding the stock that dropped in price may think money disappeared, but it didn't. The person from whom he bought the stock received money for that stock. The MONEY is still there. What happens is that confidence levels dropped. When that happens, people hold onto the money they have (if they can) and they don't spend it. It doesn't go into circulation and is not used for purchasing goods and services. This in turn causes the providers of those goods and services to realize less revenue. Less revenue means that the provider cannot afford to maintain the employment of its workers. Layoffs follow which leads to high unemployment and even less confidence. This is a vicious cycle that can only be mitigated when confidence is restored. The Obama Administration knows this. It's Econ 101. If one can restore confidence, then money will enter circulation faster than if circulation were reliant on basic needs alone. The very act of passing a stimulus plan will, hopefully, have some effect on confidence. This is why there is a sense of urgency from the administration. Confidence is key. __________________ All the Free Porn You Can Handle with One Hand \| Hot Dirty Sluts Blog \| Adult Article Directory

02-10-2009, 09:10 AM	#56
nation-x Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 5,370	I think that PleasurePays and Mutt have a very low opinion of their fellow Americans and have made sweeping generalizations about them. In reality, the majority of Americans are hard working people who DON'T overspend.... but are finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet. You two (and those that hold the same opinion) must be insulated from reality. A reality where a huge percentage of our manufacturing base has left our country and that loss has trickled down to millions of average Americans... Including millions of small business owners who are having to close their shops because the local economy has gone to shit. There is your Trickle Down Economics in a nutshell. You have an elitist attitude toward other people and furthermore are mere parrots of the elite class that rules the Republican Party... The Industrial Revolution killed your theories of "help yourself" in large part because during a 20-30 year period there was a huge paradigm shift where 95% of Americans stopped working for themselves and started working for others. Our country was largely supported by agriculture at that time... fast forward to now... there is no possible way for those 95% to go back to being self supporting because there is no demand for their services when they have to compete with huge multi-national corporations and global supply. The basic problem with the "conservative" position is that it is a narrow minded position where the strongest survive. That era is over. Without the consumer... there is no strongest... the conservative view is wolf pack mentality.