Europe's Crisis: Much Bigger Than Subprime, Worse Than U.S. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

Let that old scrap move his senile ass to the world behind the university doors someday!

Ok I need to drive somewhere, but hell do I enjoy this.

Well, he's been dead a couple years now

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

Well, he's been dead a couple years now

Oh shit, so he's haunting people from the coffin now!

Now I really go, don't get me into any more discussion.

tiger · 02-28-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

Europe needs to start placing little, teeny tiny classified ads in 1000s of newspapers across the region, advertising products.

MaDalton · 02-28-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

I have been reading about this for most of 2008 and all of 2009. Many economists and analysts have said the Euro will not survive. Even Milton Friedman said that the Euro will fail when they have their next serious recession...

not just because i studied business management and economics... the Euro will not go away. the only thing that might make it go away ever is a world currency. if there's a chance we ever will have one. probably not in our lifetime though

cykoe6 · 02-28-2009, 09:17 AM

I follow this issue very closely and there is no doubt that Western Europe's massive exposure to bad debts in Eastern Europe is leading to a potential catastrophe which could result in the end of the Euro. The situation in the Baltics is extremely desperate and getting worse every day. Latvia's sovereign debt was just downgraded to "junk" status last week. The IMF does not have enough money to bail out every country in Eastern Europe. Massive defaults are very likely all across the board.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-meltdown.html

Quote:

Failure to save East Europe will lead to worldwide meltdown
The unfolding debt drama in Russia, Ukraine, and the EU states of Eastern Europe has reached acute danger point.

If mishandled by the world policy establishment, this debacle is big enough to shatter the fragile banking systems of Western Europe and set off round two of our financial Götterdämmerung.

Austria's finance minister Josef Pröll made frantic efforts last week to put together a ?150bn rescue for the ex-Soviet bloc. Well he might. His banks have lent ?230bn to the region, equal to 70pc of Austria's GDP.

"A failure rate of 10pc would lead to the collapse of the Austrian financial sector," reported Der Standard in Vienna. Unfortunately, that is about to happen.

The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) says bad debts will top 10pc and may reach 20pc. The Vienna press said Bank Austria and its Italian owner Unicredit face a "monetary Stalingrad" in the East.

Mr Pröll tried to drum up support for his rescue package from EU finance ministers in Brussels last week. The idea was scotched by Germany's Peer Steinbrück. Not our problem, he said. We'll see about that.

Stephen Jen, currency chief at Morgan Stanley, said Eastern Europe has borrowed $1.7 trillion abroad, much on short-term maturities. It must repay ? or roll over ? $400bn this year, equal to a third of the region's GDP. Good luck. The credit window has slammed shut.

Not even Russia can easily cover the $500bn dollar debts of its oligarchs while oil remains near $33 a barrel. The budget is based on Urals crude at $95. Russia has bled 36pc of its foreign reserves since August defending the rouble.

"This is the largest run on a currency in history," said Mr Jen.

In Poland, 60pc of mortgages are in Swiss francs. The zloty has just halved against the franc. Hungary, the Balkans, the Baltics, and Ukraine are all suffering variants of this story. As an act of collective folly ? by lenders and borrowers ? it matches America's sub-prime debacle. There is a crucial difference, however. European banks are on the hook for both. US banks are not.

Almost all East bloc debts are owed to West Europe, especially Austrian, Swedish, Greek, Italian, and Belgian banks. En plus, Europeans account for an astonishing 74pc of the entire $4.9 trillion portfolio of loans to emerging markets.

They are five times more exposed to this latest bust than American or Japanese banks, and they are 50pc more leveraged (IMF data).

Spain is up to its neck in Latin America, which has belatedly joined the slump (Mexico's car output fell 51pc in January, and Brazil lost 650,000 jobs in one month). Britain and Switzerland are up to their necks in Asia.

Whether it takes months, or just weeks, the world is going to discover that Europe's financial system is sunk, and that there is no EU Federal Reserve yet ready to act as a lender of last resort or to flood the markets with emergency stimulus.

Under a "Taylor Rule" analysis, the European Central Bank already needs to cut rates to zero and then purchase bonds and Pfandbriefe on a huge scale. It is constrained by geopolitics ? a German-Dutch veto ? and the Maastricht Treaty.

But I digress. It is East Europe that is blowing up right now. Erik Berglof, EBRD's chief economist, told me the region may need ?400bn in help to cover loans and prop up the credit system.

Europe's governments are making matters worse. Some are pressuring their banks to pull back, undercutting subsidiaries in East Europe. Athens has ordered Greek banks to pull out of the Balkans.

The sums needed are beyond the limits of the IMF, which has already bailed out Hungary, Ukraine, Latvia, Belarus, Iceland, and Pakistan ? and Turkey next ? and is fast exhausting its own $200bn (?155bn) reserve. We are nearing the point where the IMF may have to print money for the world, using arcane powers to issue Special Drawing Rights.

Its $16bn rescue of Ukraine has unravelled. The country ? facing a 12pc contraction in GDP after the collapse of steel prices ? is hurtling towards default, leaving Unicredit, Raffeisen and ING in the lurch. Pakistan wants another $7.6bn. Latvia's central bank governor has declared his economy "clinically dead" after it shrank 10.5pc in the fourth quarter. Protesters have smashed the treasury and stormed parliament.

"This is much worse than the East Asia crisis in the 1990s," said Lars Christensen, at Danske Bank.

"There are accidents waiting to happen across the region, but the EU institutions don't have any framework for dealing with this. The day they decide not to save one of these one countries will be the trigger for a massive crisis with contagion spreading into the EU."

Europe is already in deeper trouble than the ECB or EU leaders ever expected. Germany contracted at an annual rate of 8.4pc in the fourth quarter.

If Deutsche Bank is correct, the economy will have shrunk by nearly 9pc before the end of this year. This is the sort of level that stokes popular revolt.

The implications are obvious. Berlin is not going to rescue Ireland, Spain, Greece and Portugal as the collapse of their credit bubbles leads to rising defaults, or rescue Italy by accepting plans for EU "union bonds" should the debt markets take fright at the rocketing trajectory of Italy's public debt (hitting 112pc of GDP next year, just revised up from 101pc ? big change), or rescue Austria from its Habsburg adventurism.

So we watch and wait as the lethal brush fires move closer.

If one spark jumps across the eurozone line, we will have global systemic crisis within days. Are the firemen ready?

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cykoe6

I follow this issue very closely and there is no doubt that Western Europe's massive exposure to bad debts in Eastern Europe is leading to a potential catastrophe which could result in the end of the Euro. The situation in the Baltics is extremely desperate and getting worse every day. Latvia's sovereign debt was just downgraded to "junk" status last week. The IMF does not have enough money to bail out every country in Eastern Europe. Massive defaults are very likely all across the board.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-meltdown.html

Quoting the telegraph for Monetary issues is like trying to get an unbiased opinion from foxnews.

Both articles in this thread have been written by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, a man who spend his whole career campaigning against the euro.

nolongerexists · 02-28-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cykoe6

I follow this issue very closely and there is no doubt that Western Europe's massive exposure to bad debts in Eastern Europe is leading to a potential catastrophe which could result in the end of the Euro. The situation in the Baltics is extremely desperate and getting worse every day. Latvia's sovereign debt was just downgraded to "junk" status last week. The IMF does not have enough money to bail out every country in Eastern Europe. Massive defaults are very likely all across the board.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-meltdown.html

Yet the polish government thinks its best time to start talking serious about introducing Euro.

You US folks wanna know what is going on on EU famous debates? Check this movie out

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5DlVFKBwbuU

Did you know that after Ireland's NO to Lisbon Strategy EU wanted to punish them, or even kick them out of the UNION? As this clever UK guy said - European Union can't simply take NO as an answer!

cykoe6 · 02-28-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

Quoting the telegraph for Monetary issues is like trying to get an unbiased opinion from foxnews.

Both articles in this thread have been written by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, a man who spend his whole career campaigning against the euro.

The article is written from a Euro skeptic outlook.... that is true. But it does not change the fact that there is a lot of exposure to Eastern European toxic debt in European banks. It is obviously difficult to predict the consequences or the outcome of all this.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

not just because i studied business management and economics... the Euro will not go away. the only thing that might make it go away ever is a world currency. if there's a chance we ever will have one. probably not in our lifetime though

It will all come down to Germany. Also, in order to survive EU will need to become much more centralized and the power of the ECB will need to be greatly expanded.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindzior

Yet the polish government thinks its best time to start talking serious about introducing Euro.

You US folks wanna know what is going on on EU famous debates? Check this movie out

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5DlVFKBwbuU

Did you know that after Ireland's NO to Lisbon Strategy EU wanted to punish them, or even kick them out of the UNION? As this clever UK guy said - European Union can't simply take NO as an answer!

Now that is an interesting video. Here, I'll embed it for you

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

Quoting the telegraph for Monetary issues is like trying to get an unbiased opinion from foxnews.

Both articles in this thread have been written by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, a man who spend his whole career campaigning against the euro.

What do you disagree with in that article?

cykoe6 · 02-28-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

What do you disagree with in that article?

There is nothing to disagree with. He is just attacking the source because the facts are not in dispute.

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cykoe6

There is nothing to disagree with. He is just attacking the source because the facts are not in dispute.

No there is plenty to disagree with, but until you called me out I really didn't feel like going into a sterile debate.

There is trouble no doubt, especially with Austria, who is the most exposed but on a European level it represents only 9% of aggregate GDP, not a number that can come close to bringing down the euro.

Some banks will suffer of course but unlike in the UK many are still making a healthy: profit Banco Santander ($11 billion in 08) BNP ($4.5 billion) SocGen ($3 billion)....

Wasn't it the Telegraph who was predicting they would be crushed in 08...hmmm

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

No there is plenty to disagree with, but until you called me out I really didn't feel like going into a sterile debate.

There is trouble no doubt, especially with Austria, who is the most exposed but on a European level it represents only 9% of aggregate GDP, not a number that can come close to bringing down the euro.

Some banks will suffer of course but unlike in the UK many are still making a healthy: profit Banco Santander ($11 billion in 08) BNP ($4.5 billion) SocGen ($3 billion)....

Wasn't it the Telegraph who was predicting they would be crushed in 08...hmmm

Yes, Austria is bad, but they are not nearly the only ones. European banks are leveraged much more than even US banks and the Eastern Europe problem is on a scale much larger than US Sub Prime. You seem to think that the problem is rather small and containable. You are going to be in for quite a surprise...

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

people are afraid period. look at this link and it should give you a clear understanding where we are at.

http://www.businessinsider.com/unsol...e-world-2009-2

That's amazing. Did you hear 120,000 protesters hit the streets in Ireland the other day protesting the economy? Yeah, things are fine... Nothing to see here folks

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

That's amazing. Did you hear 120,000 protesters hit the streets in Ireland the other day protesting the economy? Yeah, things are fine... Nothing to see here folks

Who said everything is fine? Problems are huge. This is why we don't need euroskeptic journalist writing sensationalist drivel just to forward their own agenda.

"The Russian budget is based on Urals crude at $95..."

$95 wow that is a big number... Why doesn't he say break even was at $70. Even better, at the time of writing he knows the revised budget is coming out in a couple of days - based on a barrel at $41 -

"In Poland, 60pc of mortgages are in Swiss francs. The zloty has just halved against the franc...."

60 pct down... oh no wait a minute turn out that was a drop from a short lived peak, it's only down 20% from last years normal levels.

Not saying everything is rosy but I like to be separate economics from politics, many people bashing the Euro aren't

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

That's amazing. Did you hear 120,000 protesters hit the streets in Ireland the other day protesting the economy? Yeah, things are fine... Nothing to see here folks

They have short memories. In the 80's they were one of the poorest countries in Europe, in a few years they have grown so quickly t they now have a GDP per capita higher than France or Germany.

A correction was to be expected.

MaDalton · 02-28-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

They have short memories. In the 80's they were one of the poorest countries in Europe, in a few years they have grown so quickly t they now have a GDP per capita higher than France or Germany.

A correction was to be expected.

correct - for years people all over europe were pissed about all the money and jobs that went to Ireland. i think all major companies like UPS, Microsoft etc. have outsourced their callcenters to Ireland. and as a thanks for that Ireland gave the EU a kick in the ass

buzzy · 02-28-2009, 01:37 PM

The Euro has been a failure since it started, nobody wanted it, it was imposed upon the people by force and now the people have to pay for the mess.

The EU is a joke and i foresee ALOT more riots like the ones in Greece in the near future.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

Not saying everything is rosy but I like to be separate economics from politics, many people bashing the Euro aren't

I don't care what happens the Euro personally.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

correct - for years people all over europe were pissed about all the money and jobs that went to Ireland. i think all major companies like UPS, Microsoft etc. have outsourced their callcenters to Ireland. and as a thanks for that Ireland gave the EU a kick in the ass

How did Ireland give the EU a kick in the ass? I certainly hope you are not referring to The Treaty of Lisbon...

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

I don't care what happens the Euro personally.

No but your references are from people who do.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

They have short memories. In the 80's they were one of the poorest countries in Europe, in a few years they have grown so quickly t they now have a GDP per capita higher than France or Germany.

A correction was to be expected.

I am aware of their history and calling this a "correction" shows you have no idea what is going on. Where are you from?

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzy

The Euro has been a failure since it started, nobody wanted it, it was imposed upon the people by force and now the people have to pay for the mess.

The EU is a joke and i foresee ALOT more riots like the ones in Greece in the near future.

Your a dumbass.

They made a survey in the UK a few years ago:

If the Euro was called the Crown would you be in favor of the UK joining?

The majority answered yes.

This is how deep the average person's understanding of currency is. I am guessing you are one of these average people.

BTW you might want to look at a recent chart of the pound

buzzy · 02-28-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

Your a dumbass.

They made a survey in the UK a few years ago:

If the Euro was called the Crown would you be in favor of the UK joining?

The majority answered yes.

This is how deep the average person's understanding of currency is. I am guessing you are one of these average people.

BTW you might want to look at a recent chart of the pound

What the fuck? I'm not talking about the UK. I know the UK is in a mess but what the fuck has that got to do with the euro?

Weirdo.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

No but your references are from people who do.

So, anyone that says anything negative about the Euro is being political and everyone who is pro Euro, like yourself, is just looking at the facts logically. Enjoy your delusions

MaDalton · 02-28-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

How did Ireland give the EU a kick in the ass? I certainly hope you are not referring to The Treaty of Lisbon...

of course i do

i like the idea of the EU and i like the Euro.

and i want both to succeed - although i of course also don't think that all ideas are brilliant they are breeding out in their headquarters.

but not to forget that since 64 years we had no wars between the participating countries. Never happend before for such long time.

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

So, anyone that says anything negative about the Euro is being political and everyone who is pro Euro, like yourself, is just looking at the facts logically. Enjoy your delusions

You are not reading what I am writing are you?

I am only saying articles predicting the collapse of the Euro have to be taken with a pinch of salt when they come from an openly anti-EU publications.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

You are not reading what I am writing are you?

I am only saying articles predicting the collapse of the Euro have to be taken with a pinch of salt when they come from an openly anti-EU publications.

They are not only coming from the Telegraph.

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

of course i do

i like the idea of the EU and i like the Euro.

and i want both to succeed - although i of course also don't think that all ideas are brilliant they are breeding out in their headquarters.

but not to forget that since 64 years we had no wars between the participating countries. Never happend before for such long time.

So, you don't believe people should have the right to vote?

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzy

What the fuck? I'm not talking about the UK. I know the UK is in a mess but what the fuck has that got to do with the euro?

Weirdo.

It had to do with the average persons limited understanding of currencies.

But now I see you are just limited altogether

halfpint · 02-28-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evie

How much that really worth?

250.000000 ZWD is equal to around $2.61

or 1 USD = 95.4200 ZWD and 1 ZWD = 0.0104800 USD

cykoe6 · 02-28-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

I am only saying articles predicting the collapse of the Euro have to be taken with a pinch of salt when they come from an openly anti-EU publications.

I agree that predictions of the Euros collapse need to be taken with a grain of salt. That does not mean that there is not a serious debt crisis in Europe right now. There is plenty of agreement on that from all sides of the argument. I personally believe the EU is a totalitarian nightmare and anything that leads to its dissolution is a good thing. Having said that, I very much doubt that the EU commissars will let the Euro or the EU collapse. They have their fat bank accounts, chauffeured cars and luxury apartments in Brussels at stake.

Slappin Fish · 02-28-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cykoe6

I agree that predictions of the Euros collapse need to be taken with a grain of salt. That does not mean that there is not a serious debt crisis in Europe right now. There is plenty of agreement on that from all sides of the argument. I personally believe the EU is a totalitarian nightmare and anything that leads to its dissolution is a good thing. Having said that, I very much doubt that the EU commissars will let the Euro or the EU collapse. They have their fat bank accounts, chauffeured cars and luxury apartments in Brussels at stake.

Totalitarian nightmare I don't know, the rest can't be argued with

MaDalton · 02-28-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

So, you don't believe people should have the right to vote?

people elect governments, governments make decisions. if government screws up they don't get re-elected. there is no perfect world, but so far this seems to be the most practical approach.

Michaelious · 02-28-2009, 03:56 PM

yeah i think its going to get much worse over here

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindzior

Yet the polish government thinks its best time to start talking serious about introducing Euro.

The Polish always had a chance to take the world around them seriously during the country's history, unfortunately, this country never failed to fail.

So far they were always only able to take seriously themselves and to benefit from their total and constant incompetence to anything.

A great parallel is their effort to build a tunnel for trains that failed miserably a couple weeks ago, because their most elite brains didn't count with the shocking fact that a train needs railways (those of us open minded folks already noticed that since the 19th century).

Poland is a waste of money without any measurable or even envisionable result at all, and it's the country's national politics to keep it like that.

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slappin Fish

They made a survey in the UK a few years ago:

If the Euro was called the Crown would you be in favor of the UK joining?

The majority answered yes.

This is how deep the average person's understanding of currency is. I am guessing you are one of these average people.

Why do I totally believe this?

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

Yes, Austria is bad, but they are not nearly the only ones. European banks are leveraged much more than even US banks and the Eastern Europe problem is on a scale much larger than US Sub Prime. You seem to think that the problem is rather small and containable. You are going to be in for quite a surprise...

The problem is as big as this world.

The lazy white man gets eaten by the smarter lazy white man - the banker, and it's because the devil made them to give all the money and power in this world to stranger's hands during the past couple centuries of evolution.

Those who are holding your money are not the best to trust or rely on.

Lord Aga · 02-28-2009, 05:07 PM

You nearly got me arrested this night! and not for climbing Nelsons column!

How u doing bud?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoComments

when you import:
American music, American culture, McDonalds, Pizza Huts, etc,
you import American financial calamities too.
Good luck, Europe. The last American Depression was conquered thru the WWII in Europe.
Us, Americans, know thta and we can easily do it again! Have you seen Iran and North Korea working on nuks to kill us all? We'll save the world once again and our own asses in the process.

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

Yes, Austria is bad, but they are not nearly the only ones. European banks are leveraged much more than even US banks and the Eastern Europe problem is on a scale much larger than US Sub Prime. You seem to think that the problem is rather small and containable. You are going to be in for quite a surprise...

Those are totally different systems that can't be compared on any level.

Did you ever try to apply for a mortgage or take a short term loan here in the Euro Socialist Empire?

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

people elect governments, governments make decisions. if government screws up they don't get re-elected. there is no perfect world, but so far this seems to be the most practical approach.

The people of Europe overwhelmingly do not support the Treaty of Lisbon (aka the EU Constitution). It was voted down in referendums in France, Holland, certainly would have been in the UK and arguably most of the rest of Europe had they not stopped having referendums due to lack of public support. Instead of listening to the people, politicians in pretty much every country in the EU, except for Ireland, decide to do a backdoor deal of sorts. Politicians in Ireland followed their constitutional mandate and had a public referendum on the adoption of the treaty (constitution) and, just like everywhere else in Europe that did the same prior, it was voted DOWN by the people. You criticize this and referring to it as "a kick in the ass"? Sorry, but you sound like a fucking fascist

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

The people of Europe overwhelmingly do not support the Treaty of Lisbon (aka the EU Constitution). It was voted down in referendums in France, Holland, certainly would have been in the UK and arguably most of the rest of Europe had they not stopped having referendums due to lack of public support. Instead of listening to the people, politicians in pretty much every country in the EU, except for Ireland, decide to do a backdoor deal of sorts. Politicians in Ireland followed their constitutional mandate and had a public referendum on the adoption of the treaty (constitution) and, just like everywhere else in Europe that did the same prior, it was voted DOWN by the people. You criticize this and referring to it as "a kick in the ass"? Sorry, but you sound like a fucking fascist

If you show me one single EU citizen that does know what is the core subject of the Lisbon treaty and will be able to put together two sensible sentences about it I will believe you.

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

You criticize this and referring to it as "a kick in the ass"? Sorry, but you sound like a fucking fascist

Please,

no strong words!

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

If you show me one single EU citizen that does know what is the core subject of the Lisbon treaty I will believe you.

Sadly you are right now that they renamed the EU Constitution the Treaty of Lisbon and politicians are hoping that the ignorance of their constituents will allow them to sneak it through the back door. Except for Ireland... Who let their people vote on the matter. There are obviously plenty of EU citizens in Ireland who know what the Treaty of Lisbon is about...

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

Those are totally different systems that can't be compared on any level.

Did you ever try to apply for a mortgage or take a short term loan here in the Euro Socialist Empire?

What is fundamentally different? I do not see it.

CarlosTheGaucho · 02-28-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

I do not see it.

That's what I'm talking about, and I mean now the relation between the bank and its regular / ass fucked client that has to get administratively tortured to death anytime he needs to borrow a dime.

And this is not connected with any artificial crisis, this is the way it is eversince here.

You ONLY get money if:

a) it's a small amount and you get seriously ass fucked

b) you have something solid / with a value as a warranty

So this way they turn virtual assets into real assets - ingenious isn't it?

The spending / credit balance culture is just not here and the banks know it better than anyone else.

Ok I'm tired now, gonna watch some porn and go to sleep, let's continue tomorrow and make this weekend memorable.

maxjohan · 02-28-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjxxx

It`s bullshit. Eastern European countries have really small debt:
Estonia - 3,4% GDP
Russia - 5,9 % GDP
Latvia - 7,4% GDP
Ukraine - 11,7% GDP

comparing with Central European contries:
Slovenia - 23,6% GDP
Czech Republic - 26% GDP
Slovakia - 35,9% GDP

or West European countries:
Netherlands - 45,5% GDP
Austria - 59,1% GDP
Germany - 64,9% GDP
Greece - 89,5% GDP
Italy - 104% GDP

The best is Japan 170% GDP, Lebanon 186,6% GDP and Zimbabwe 218.2% GDP

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_public_debt

Dont show anyone this, you may get someone after your ass. They has to keep the fazad alive. Usa, western europe- all riches, all food, no loose dicks!

Ethersync · 02-28-2009, 05:47 PM

The problem is Western European banks have already lent an enormous amount of money to people in Eastern Europe (either citizens or western investors speculating) that are not and will never pay them back. You know how easy it was to get credit in most of Eastern Europe from about 2002/3 until around 2007/8? Have you been to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, etc, etc...? You are right that the lax lending standards in Eastern Europe are not exactly the same as those in America... They are worse

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

That's what I'm talking about, and I mean now the relation between the bank and its regular / ass fucked client that has to get administratively tortured to death anytime he needs to borrow a dime.

And this is not connected with any artificial crisis, this is the way it is eversince here.

You ONLY get money if:

a) it's a small amount and you get seriously ass fucked

b) you have something solid / with a value as a warranty

So this way they turn virtual assets into real assets - ingenious isn't it?

The spending / credit balance culture is just not here and the banks know it better than anyone else.

Ok I'm tired now, gonna watch some porn and go to sleep, let's continue tomorrow and make this weekend memorable.

onwebcam · 02-28-2009, 06:10 PM

Regardless of where you are from does any of this sound familiar?

“Very soon, every American will be required to register their biological property in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will effect our security as a chargeback for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer being unable to work and earn a living. They will be our chattel, and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions.

Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, forever to remain economic slaves through taxation, secured by their pledges. They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debt to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap to us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud which we will call “Social Insurance.” Without realizing it, every American will insure us for any loss we may incur and in this manner, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and, we will employ the high office of the President of our dummy corporation to foment this plot against America.” Edward Mandell House

02-28-2009, 03:56 PM	#86
Michaelious Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6,720	yeah i think its going to get much worse over here __________________

02-28-2009, 06:10 PM	#100
onwebcam Fake Nick 1.0 Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Rent free, your head Posts: 27,653	Regardless of where you are from does any of this sound familiar? “Very soon, every American will be required to register their biological property in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will effect our security as a chargeback for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer being unable to work and earn a living. They will be our chattel, and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions. Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, forever to remain economic slaves through taxation, secured by their pledges. They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debt to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap to us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud which we will call “Social Insurance.” Without realizing it, every American will insure us for any loss we may incur and in this manner, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and, we will employ the high office of the President of our dummy corporation to foment this plot against America.” Edward Mandell House __________________ PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF..... ██████████████████▒ 99.5% complete.

02-28-2009, 01:37 PM	#69
buzzy Confirmed User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,606	The Euro has been a failure since it started, nobody wanted it, it was imposed upon the people by force and now the people have to pay for the mess. The EU is a joke and i foresee ALOT more riots like the ones in Greece in the near future.