A Few Good Reason to Hate Obama Care

[TheSenator]

Just got this from a Republican house wife who wishes Bush was still President.

Here are just a few very good reasons to hate ObamaCare:

? Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

? Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

? Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

? Page 42: The ?Health Choices Commissioner? will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

? Page 50: All non-U.S. citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

? Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

? Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

? Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)

? Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

? Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

? Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens

? Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

? Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

? Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No ?judicial review? is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.

? Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

? Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

? Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

? Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

? Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll.

? Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.

? Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).

? Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

? Page 203: ?The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.? Yes, it really says that.? Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected.?

? Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you?ll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)

? Page 253: Government sets value of doctors? time, their professional judgment, etc.

? Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.

? Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.

? Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!

? Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.

? Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.

? Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!

? Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.

? Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on ?community? input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.

? Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.

? Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.

? Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

? Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).

? Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?

? Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.

? Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.

? Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.

? Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient?s health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.

? Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

? Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.

? Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.

? Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.

? Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

[TheSenator]

Can someone please debunk this bullshit?

[nation-x]

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Can someone please debunk this bullshit?

why? So everyone else can argue about it?

[mmcfadden]

scary shit... is that what's going to be proposed?

[theking]

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Can someone please debunk this bullshit?

If you received that info via email...do what your President asked you to do...forward it to the White House.

[beerptrol]

"Just got this from a Republican house wife who wishes Bush was still President."

I stopped reading there

[BobG]

most of those can be suffixed with, "just like the insurance companies do now"

[dyna mo]

fyi, obama doesn't have a hc plan.

[nation-x]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

fyi, obama doesn't have a hc plan.

The winner is!....

[Porn Grounds]

I read like 2 lines and then remembered the other 4269756 threads here with the same email and all the points already debunked...so yeah I stopped reading...

Oh and tell that housewife she is an idiot...

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by beerptrol

"Just got this from a Republican house wife who wishes Bush was still President."

I stopped reading there

Same here.

[mmcfadden]

Originally Posted by Porn Grounds

I read like 2 lines and then remembered the other 4269756 threads here with the same email and all the points already debunked...so yeah I stopped reading...

Oh and tell that housewife she is an idiot...

which threads... i'm specifically asking about the debunking threads... not the rhetoric

[BestXXXPorn]

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Can someone please debunk this bullshit?

Do yourself a favor and read it for yourself... not sure there's anything to "debunk"

[Libertine]

See link below for debunking of nonsense.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-needs-check-/

[mmcfadden]

Originally Posted by Libertine

See link below for debunking of nonsense.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-needs-check-/

i'm kinda looking for debunking on the below listed... specifically 149, 150 and 167

? Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

? Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

? Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

? Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

? Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll.

? Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.

? Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).

? Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

? Page 203: ?The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.? Yes, it really says that.? Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected.?

? Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you?ll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)

? Page 253: Government sets value of doctors? time, their professional judgment, etc.

? Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.

? Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.

? Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!

? Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.

? Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.

? Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!

? Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.

? Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on ?community? input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.

? Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.

? Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.

? Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

? Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).

? Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?

? Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.

? Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.

? Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.

? Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient?s health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.

? Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

? Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.

? Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.

? Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.

? Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

[TheSenator]

Debunked line by line...

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/...alth-bill.html

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by mmcfadden

i'm kinda looking for debunking on the below listed... specifically 149, 150 and 167



? Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.


? Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll.

? Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.

149/150- not accurate. the penalty isn?t incurred if an employer "does not offer the public option," as the e-mail claims. Rather, it?s a penalty for not offering health insurance to employees.

167- true. This is the mechanism in the bill to enforce the individual mandate requiring everyone to have insurance. A person who doesn?t have insurance that meets minimum benefit standards (or other acceptable coverage, such as a plan that was grandfathered in) would pay a penalty of 2.5 percent of modified adjusted gross income for the year. The total penalty can?t exceed a national average premium for individual coverage, or family coverage if applicable.

[MK Ultra]

• Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
this happens to be true and is the main reason I'm dead against this so-called "health care reform"
People like me who are considered self-employed but can't afford to pay the $600+ per month for insurance are going to be penalized, it was on the news last night that a family of 4 making $66,000 per year would have to pay $3800 in penalties if no insurance.
Welcome to America 2.0 folks, get your wallets out so you can pay the air tax.

[TheSenator]

Originally Posted by mmcfadden

i'm kinda looking for debunking on the below listed... specifically 149, 150 and 167

? Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

? Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll.



More lies. The section ONLY refers to any employer who doesn't offer ANY insurance to his employees. If they offer either private insurance or the public insurance, they do not have to pay the 8%, regardless of the size of their payroll. The purpose of the public insurance system is to cover as many people as possible. An employee of such an employer who wants to buy the public insurance will have to pay an amount indexed to the probably meager pay the cheapskate employer is paying. (Think fast food franchise where everyone works for $8 an hour or less.) The fund created by this tax will subsidize the purchase of health insurance for these people.



An employer with a tiny payroll will pay considerably less, but again; ONLY if he doesn't participate in the public insurance system. Here's the table.



If the annual payroll of such employer for the preceding calendar year:

The applicable percentage is:

Does not exceed $250,000 ..................................... 0 percent

Exceeds $250,000, but does not exceed $300,000 2 percent

Exceeds $300,000, but does not exceed $350,000 4 percent

Exceeds $350,000, but does not exceed $400,000 6 percent



So, if they have a really small business, say 10 employees making $24,000 each, and don't offer insurance, they get off scot-free. In fact, if they have 20 employees making $15,000 per year, they only pay $6,000 into the fund.

If you ask me, there's a gap here. Really small cheapskate business owners are going to get off light, and all other taxpayers will have to foot more of the bill as a result.


? Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.



Yay! Finally, they got one right. Well, partially right, anyway.



Anyone without health insurance -- specifically those who choose to run around without health insurance because they're too cheap and stupid -- will now have to pay something into a system that is required to take care of them when they contract a serious illness or get hit by a bus. Let's see? if the guy makes $100,000 per year, the total tax is $2,500, which is far less than he would pay for health insurance now. And for those who think this is especially unfair to rich people who choose not to carry insurance because of their immense wealth, don't worry; the amount is capped at the size of the average health insurance premium. In return, the rest of us won't have to pick up the tab when the uninsured numb nuts is wheeled into the emergency room for a trauma because he was riding his dirt bike and slammed into a tree while not wearing a helmet. .



In other words, this is something to applaud, not to hate. It should encourage people to opt into the insurance system, which saves everyone money.

[TheSenator]

Originally Posted by MK Ultra

? Page 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
this happens to be true and is the main reason I'm dead against this so-called "health care reform"
People like me who are considered self-employed but can't afford to pay the $600+ per month for insurance are going to be penalized, it was on the news last night that a family of 4 making $66,000 per year would have to pay $3800 in penalties if no insurance.
Welcome to America 2.0 folks, get your wallets out so you can pay the air tax.

Well, isn't that like not riding without car insurance. Asshole who get on the road and damage shit that makes everybody insurance rates go up.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Well, isn't that like not riding without car insurance. Asshole who get on the road and damage shit that makes everybody insurance rates go up.

ex-fucking-actly.

[mmcfadden]

i'm confused... "If they offer either private insurance or the public insurance, they do not have to pay the 8%, regardless of the size of their payroll."

no business will pay for private health insurance because the gov't will low ball all costs. meaning... the government will put all of YOUR well being into there numbers.

There will be no more research provided except as deemed by the gov't, you will always pay a tax on something because the gov't decides they want to change something...

For the sake of all that makes sense... and oh yeah... your children... are you fuckin' crazy?

[Rochard]

The lies that are flying around about this issue is staggering.

The truth, at the end of the day, most of the items mentioned are currently in place. For example, I don't decide what benefits I get. In fact, I don't really even get to choose what company I get my benefits from - This is decided by my wife's employer, not me. At the end of the day, someone somewhere is deciding what benefits I get and it's not me.

The "death panel" is another example. It doesn't decide who lives and dies, but instead it's about properly explaining to people different options who might be facing death related issues.

What we need is the truth - and not a fucking peep from the HMOs who are behind all of this bullshit.

[MK Ultra]

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Well, isn't that like not riding without car insurance. Asshole who get on the road and damage shit that makes everybody insurance rates go up.

you make a choice to drive a car, no car = no insurance.
the only way to avoid paying Obama's poor tax is to:
A-stop breathing
B- leave the US
C- give a sizable amount of your income to a for-profit company

this isn't the America I was born in

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by MK Ultra

People like me who are considered self-employed but can't afford to pay the $600+ per month for insurance

Originally Posted by MK Ultra

you make a choice to drive a car, no car = no insurance.
the only way to avoid paying Obama's poor tax is to:
A-stop breathing
B- leave the US
C- give a sizable amount of your income to a for-profit company

d. figure out a way/work harder to make enough salary to get above the poverty level.

[Tom_PM]

Dining room table. Nuff said.

[Agent 488]

obama care is going to make the insurance companies 600 billion in profit over the next 10 years.

it is a joke, just another corporate looting of the taxpayers (you). first the banks sucked the government dry and now it's time for insurance companies to finish the job.

i think a government run option best but it is off the table.

what a joke.

[MK Ultra]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

d. figure out a way/work harder to make enough salary to get above the poverty level.

If I was at the poverty level my healthcare would be subsidized by the government and we wouldn't be having this argument,
I'm paid well enough but after the expenses there just isn't much left
I already work 60+ hours per week and haven't had a vacation since 2005,
are you saying I need to work more just so I can pay more money to the government or to a health insurance company?

There are a lot of people like me who are going to be badly squeezed by this fiasco-in-the-making, and all of us are going to end up with a lot less money in our pockets by the time it's all over.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by MK Ultra

are you saying I need to work more just so I can pay more money to the government or to a health insurance company?

.

not at all. i am saying the options you provided were lacking the most important one- you assuming responsibility for yourself. the fact is you need health care coverage, this is 2009. hc is outrageously expensive, i get that, i am a self-employed diabetic, not easy or cheap to get coverage and the coverage i do get doesn't cover my pre-existing condition. i pay a few hundred a month for insurance and ~$600 on insulin and testing supplies and my visits to my endo. so i am sure you can find insurance for much much less than $600/month, closer to $200 i'd say.

moreover, it would simply be irresponsible of me to not have coverage, blame it on the government or my current income and decide to not take care of myself or be prepared for any illness/accidents.

fact is, as much as a cluster fuck as it all is, the government is trying to help people like you and me with this plan. will it work? don't know. that's not the point

the point is it's not going to work to not have coverage or to say it's not fair to pay in when everyone else will be paying your bills when shit hits the fan for you, which it will eventually.

[GregE]

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Well, isn't that like not riding without car insurance. Asshole who get on the road and damage shit that makes everybody insurance rates go up.

Car insurance don't cost $600 or more a month. Well, not unless you really drive like shit

There's lots of self employed people out there who are gonna have some serious trouble pulling that out of their ass.

The real solution is to go with a true single payer plan. You know, like the rest of the civilized world did decades ago.

[dyna mo]

not sure where y'all are getting this $600/month figure. i guess you haven't looked into a hc plan.

www.ehealth.com is a good place to start, you will find dozens of plans in the $200 range.

[MK Ultra]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

not at all. i am saying the options you provided were lacking the most important one- you assuming responsibility for yourself. the fact is you need health care coverage, this is 2009. hc is outrageously expensive, i get that, i am a self-employed diabetic, not easy or cheap to get coverage and the coverage i do get doesn't cover my pre-existing condition. i pay a few hundred a month for insurance and ~$600 on insulin and testing supplies and my visits to my endo. so i am sure you can find insurance for much much less than $600/month, closer to $200 i'd say.

moreover, it would simply be irresponsible of me to not have coverage, blame it on the government or my current income and decide to not take care of myself or be prepared for any illness/accidents.

fact is, as much as a cluster fuck as it all is, the government is trying to help people like you and me with this plan. will it work? don't know. that's not the point

the point is it's not going to work to not have coverage or to say it's not fair to pay in when everyone else will be paying your bills when shit hits the fan for you, which it will eventually.

What I'm saying is they are going about the wrong way, forcing people to buy from a for-profit insurance company is fundamentally wrong, I would have less problem with a single-payer or socialized healthcare system,
(but the government being the government would in that case raise my taxes %30 to pay for it and then spend the surplus on pork.)

I'm 50+ and also diabetic, even though I'm type II and controlled with medication the insurance is still too high for me to afford atm.

as for me not assuming responsibility for myself I've always paid my own healthcare bills, and it's one hell of a lot cheaper than buying insurance, you my friend are making the assumption that I would just walk away from what I owe.

unlike you I don't believe in the altruism of government, they are doing it to make political points and nothing more.

[TheSenator]

Originally Posted by GregE

Car insurance don't cost $600 or more a month. Well, not unless you really drive like shit

There's lots of self employed people out there who are gonna have some serious trouble pulling that out of their ass.

The real solution is to go with a true single payer plan. You know, like the rest of the civilized world did decades ago.

Single payer health care is the only solution.

Health care is a right.

[Tom_PM]

I tried ehealth and it showed me ONE plan, 433 bucks a month, office visits not covered, with a rating of C+!! lol and I'm one non-smoking person. Oh, but I've had a heart attack, so I bet there's actually zero plans unless I tried to lie or something.

[nation-x]

Originally Posted by TheSenator

Single payer health care is the only solution.

Health care is a right.

You said it so it must be true!

[18teens]

Those are all a bunch of fucking lies.

[topnotch, standup guy]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i am a self-employed diabetic, not easy or cheap to get coverage and the coverage i do get doesn't cover my pre-existing condition. i pay a few hundred a month for insurance and ~$600 on insulin and testing supplies and my visits to my endo. so i am sure you can find insurance for much much less than $600/month, closer to $200 i'd say.

Paying for insurance that doesn't cover your pre-existing condition seems pretty pointless to me. Odds are any serious claim you make will be rejected, rightly or wrongly, on the basis of it being related to your pre-existing condition.

No way in hell I'd like to be forced to buy that kind of a shit policy.

[Tom_PM]

Originally Posted by topnotch, standup guy

Paying for insurance that doesn't cover your pre-existing condition seems pretty pointless to me. Odds are any serious claim you make will be rejected, rightly or wrongly, on the basis of it being related to your pre-existing condition.

No way in hell I'd like to be forced to buy that kind of a shit policy.

Of course it'll be rejected. One company had over 60% rejection rate in California. I dont remember the company, but the average rejection of claims in the entire US is reported to be over 30%.

Mind you, this is when a doctor says , "Ok Tom, you need this drug, and this procedure to get healthy." and some insurance agent who is PAID to save their own company money says fuck you doctor, fuck you Tom. You can die for all I care, thanks for the money.

We already know the boogyman intimately in this country, and 'pubes who try to scare gullible people are truly terrorists.

edit: 'pubes is one of my cute words for Republicans btw. Demoncrats, democraps, whatever. Equal time.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by topnotch, standup guy

Paying for insurance that doesn't cover your pre-existing condition seems pretty pointless to me. Odds are any serious claim you make will be rejected, rightly or wrongly, on the basis of it being related to your pre-existing condition.

No way in hell I'd like to be forced to buy that kind of a shit policy.

are you not aware that the hc plan we are debating does away with pre-existing conditions clauses?

also, my insurance plan is taylored to handle non-diabetes related issues and catastrophic events and accidents. when i cut my hand and needed stitches, i was covered.

that being said, i get your point and it's exactly the point i am arguing here- the government is trying to fix the issue. will it work? don't know. are they trying? yes.

[Scott McD]

Originally Posted by beerptrol

"Just got this from a Republican house wife who wishes Bush was still President."

I stopped reading there

Hahaha!