split_joel

I have found myself over the past year and a half becoming more conservative both life style and in politics, the one thing I do not understand is why most conservative talk host are so keen on saving the republican party? In my eyes the republican party has been bought out and has been destroyed and has not been conservative in a long time. Also on taking back the republican party how do they feel there going the right way by not only disagreeing with obamas policy's as I do with most but LIE about certain policy's. My main example is obama has increased focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan however these talk show hosts say obama is destorying national security when I feel it was bush who lost focus of the war and focused on a horrible lost cause iraq. You can argue bush's reasons were oil but that is over now why are the conservatives scared of admitting obama may be going in the right direction when it comes to the country's security.

Discuss please

eZe

politics are most effectively argued within an emotional context and not an logical one (listen to any number of speaches by George Lakoff on "frames"). The republican party understands this very well. For examples of this looks at these handles for political topics:
- war on terror (actually in the case of Iraq not true there was no WMD or major terrorist support)
- partial birth abortion (technically not correct as in these cases the fetus is already dead)
- embryonic stem cell research (technically the stem cells come from a blastiocyst)
- pro life (so much better than pro choice)

It is much easier to fire people up and get them to vote your way when you contend that national security is being destroyed. Even if it isn't true if you can get the label out there just hearing it and speaking it forms neural pathways that support the emotional "frame." As evidenced by the labels above which were adopted and picked up by the national media the Republican party is good at framing the debate this way.

split_joel

Are people really that naive though? I mean I understand most people just agree with what they hear but at what point do people say enough with the bullshit? It is scary for someone my age who has one child and will be having more in the future knowing the kind of world they are growing up in.

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Deej

You shouldnt be discussing politics or raising children with people... Im sure you will just say something stupid... IN fact im positive if you talk to much about either subject you will be say something very fucking stupid...

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split_joel

You can put me down all you want when it comes to this board, my way of thinking, politics but do not for one second question my ability to raise a child. Not cool.

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Deej

Was it a low blow? possibly... but i guarantee me statement to be true...

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Barefootsies

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

spunkmaster

Most conservative talk hosts would drop the Republican party in a heartbeat if there was a real conservative party that could bring in enough votes to overtake the Democrats....

The problem is the big money and power comes from the socially liberal side of the GOP like the Trumps and Bloombergs etc. so now the GOP has a huge clash between the christian right and the social liberals.

My bet is your conservative leanings are also on the libertarian side which is why you question the Republicians ?

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split_joel

Yes you are correct that I am on the libertarian side, and I do question the republican party to the core. I think the GOP does not represent conservative values nearly as much as they should and I could be wrong but I think the republican party is more like the democratic party of the 50's-60's and the liberals well... i am not going to go there but ya. I just do not understand I think generally people would vote for a true conservative, there just has not been one in a longgggggggg time.

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Poindexterity

because admitting you were ever wrong is a no no in politics.
remember bush's answer when he was asked last time he'd made a mistake.
he claimed to have never done it.

mmcfadden

maybe ron paul?

onwebcam

Both Parties should be abolished. The only reason these politicians affiliate with either one of them is because of the funding. Ron Paul will tell you this himself that thats the only reason he's in the Republican Party.

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split_joel

Ron Paul would be a good example however when your ignored by 96% of the media and have no funding compared to the rest its almost impossible.

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jwerd

Maybe when he was running for President 96% shut him out, but now he's on almost weekly on one of the big news stations discussing HR 1207, the fed, the economy, health care reform, etc. Ron Paul has gained so much momentum since Obama took office and the politics as usual continued their path.

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Joe King

The same elites control both the Republicans and Democrats. It does not really matter who is in power. Democracy in the USA is an illusion.

Glenn Beck

All parties should band together to defeat the socialist Obama and his private ACORN army of thugs

Deej

Fine Joel... You want to have a civilized conversation?

Why even consider either party? In our state of jeopardy what would/should any red blooded American do?

Can you say revolution?

Now why dosnt anyone form and do that?

Do you think we should?

Do you think we can?

The government got to powerful. The people got too lazy.

Is this even "America" anymore?

Bottom line is if youre truly interested in what your topic is you would be asking different questions...

Its very obvious to anyone that can think for themselves that gvernment parties are nothing but a sham, as stated before, they are only there for money and power... absolutely nothing to do with "for the people"

John Adam is rolling in his fucking grave...

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mynameisjim

Talk show hosts need to cater to their listeners and their potential audience. They could care less what is actually going on in the country or what is best. Trust me, conservative talk show hosts are MUCH, MUCH happier when a Democrat is in office because it's much easier to find and retain new listeners.

If guys like Rush Limbaugh cared so much about the country, why doesn't he run for office? He is popular enough, he has enough money. He could win. But he doesn't give a shit, he just wants the money and the fame so he can drive his $500K car and talk into a solid gold microphone.

But this applies to either side, I just singled out the Republican talk show hosts because of the original post. Bill Maher wouldn't be nearly as popular if it wasn't for the Bush years so it works both ways. It's good to be in the pundit business when the other side is in office.

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BlackCrayon

People, well i should say dumb people like to look at politics like sports. Their team vs the opposing team. They don't care what their team does or says, they will root for them regardless.

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split_joel

I agree with you 100%, i think the people have gotten lazy and this is why the government has gotten so much power. Do I think there should be a revolution? Yes I do, however I do not think there is enough angry people to make this happen. I also believe that even if a conserative person got elected into office it would do nothing because there is still the 97% of corrupt politicians that control what gets passed and what does not get passed.

I hope one day there will be enough pissed off people to stand up and I am not saying violence unless as a majority we are ignored.

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Agent 488

oh shut up.

kane

Something that the Republican party does so much better than the Democrats is how they can zero in on a subject and get a group of people to vote just based on that. Here is an example. During the last presidential election there were some CNN reporters in Ohio talking to a bunch of voters. There were several of these peoplethat said they thought that Obama was the better candidate and that he would probably do a better job as president than McCain, but that they wouldn't vote for him because he was pro-choice. They felt that morally they could never vote for a pro-choice candidate. So they voted for McCain based on that one ideal.

Another thing they have done well is that they have turned the word liberal into a dirty word. In this country being called a liberal is a terrible thing. They then were able to convince a bunch of people that these horrible liberals would force their daughters to get pregnant while at school only to have them abort their babies three days before the due date. And it works. There is always a certain segment of the population that feels so strongly about one subject that they will vote for or against someone based solely on that subject the republicans have figured out how to tap into that.

We see it again with the tea party people. The republicans are losing control of the christian conservatives so they are now starting to latch onto the birthers and tea party people. If you notice anytime any of these people say something outrageous the republicans don't disavow what they say, they just don't comment on it. They are slowly trying to get these groups to work with them in hopes of winning back either the house or senate in the next election.

jwerd

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Deej

SO far Im blown away at your clear logic...

What are you angry about the most?

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Matt 26z

The problem is that America just doesn't care about anything until shit hits the fan.

Remember, we are a country of men that doesn't watch what we eat until after our arteries are clogged. This applies to every single aspect of American life.

America refuses to demand no taxation without representation and show up at the polls to doll out punishments where necessary.

Another thing that has to change is how taboo it is to talk positively of other countries. Here, the US is the best in everything and even where improvements are necessary we are still the best. France does this or Sweden does that falls on deaf ears here 99% of the time. The US has too much pride for it's own good.

split_joel

TBPH

The two that really get to me are borders and language. I am a firm believer that a lot that is wrong with this country is the amount of people who come here illegally. Now to be fair I know this country was founded on immigration and coming for a better life, however I think the times have changed as you said people have gotten lazy. Most not all come here to mooch of the people and our government. Most do not do an honest day work, and do not honor the American way of life "if it even exist anymore. On that I also think there is a problem developing where it is okay not to speak English and requiring schools to also teach to those who cannot speak English. Prime example, where I live in San Diego there are several resturants/fast food places where you go to order and they speak Spanish before speaking English, some places you have to speak to a manager to even order in English. There is a school by where I work who teach in Spanish over English. I believe also that a lot of people who come here to rape our family values and mooch of the people are a lot of the cost and contribute to a lot of crime. The immigrants of today are not the immigrants of our fathers who came here and worked there asses off just to bearly get by because America was a better home for them and there families.

Another issue that really gets to me is free trade agreement between other countries. I disagree 100% to sending jobs outside the US for products that could be made here, just to get cheaper prices.

There are many other issues I can go into but simply put, I am a 22 yr old who has been working since I was 16 years old. I openly admit the biggest mistake I ever made was not finishes school but at the same time I am not going to use that as an excuse to live as a thug, or mooch off the government. I will work hard until the day I choose to retire, to make the best life I can for my family and myself. That is what scares me about the generation I am growing up in. I was tought growing up that you do the best you can and never give up and you will make something of yourself wethier you are making shit for money or are a millionaire that is what makes you a man, living up to your faults and not making them twice. I cannot say the same for most people my age.

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split_joel

I hate to ruin my own good thread i got going here as the topic seems to be going well but I am surprised we have not heard from baddog yet, wether we would agree or not I do not know yet but he normally likes these threads.

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nico-t

lol, why would you care? he is in every thread with one sentence attempting to be clever, but never supports his vague opinions with arguments.

pornguy

Hey Joel.. You guys keeping your heads down over there??

Next time you guys crusie into Rosarito beach hit Susannas for dinner.. She is a friend and could use the good business. take friends with you. Best 5 star in the state of Baja

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GatorB

yes especially people who take the views of Hannity, Beck, Rush and O'Rielly as gospel.

it's scary that tens of millions of ignorant Americans can vote.

nation-x

People who make their money from adult and also say they are "conservatives" are fucking idiots. Pure and simple. Show me a single piece of anti-porn legislation that Dems have introduced... go ahead... I promise not to wait because you will never find any. You idiots just let the talking heads convince you of some idiocy because they touch on some point you might agree with them on... but how many of you can get behind their anti porn stance?

cykoe6

It depends on what is meant by the term "conservative." This term means much different things to different people (just like the term "liberal" in Europe means someone who believes in free market economics while the US it is generally used to mean someone who supports an activist and "progressive" government).

"Conservative" is sometimes used to describe religious fanatics who want to impose their morality on the rest of us (I prefer the term "idiots" for these type of people). It is also commonly used to describe people who are opposed to big government, taxes, government interference in the economy, government social programs etc. In general the word "conservative" is used to mean people who oppose an activist government and the progressive agenda.

As I am someone who is opposed to government interference in people's lives I obviously don't support laws banning pron (or any other thing that consenting adults choose to engage in that does not harm others). I believe individual rights and personal freedoms outweigh the supposed "greater good" that government social programs and regulations supposedly provide. I am called a "conservative" because of my opposition to government intrusion into people's lives which is perfectly consistent with working in porn.

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gornyhuy

Why the fuck can't the libertarians get anything going politically? It seems like every 'conservative' I talk to eventually claims that he is "really a libertarian at heart".

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nation-x

Since when did "conservative" get equated to "anarchist"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative

They are not even close to the same thing...

nation-x

I have news for you self proclaimed "conservatives" that post here... you are not conservatives at all... you are either Neo Liberals or Anarchists... Do you really agree with what "conservatives" actually do or are you just applying the "conservative" label that these politicians are touting because they oppose the Democrats? There is actually very little divide between The Republicans and The Democrats... really only minor differences.

The "Tea Party Movement" is actually a neo-liberal movement that the Republicans have claimed as their own in rhetoric... but they don't really even have anything in common except for opposition to the Democrats. Show me ANY instance where the Republicans substantially reduced government while they were the majority. You can't... it's as simple as that. Any reduction in regulation by the Republicans was purely a handout to Corporations... since when have they reduced Federal Power over the states? Since when have they done substantial welfare reform? "Conservatives" are blowing smoke up your ass and you seem to be liking it because you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed into thinking you were actually part of some "conservative" movement... when the FACT is that the neo-liberal movement is being used as a propaganda tool to further corporate control of our Democracy.

Educate Yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

The real threat to our Democracy is before the Supreme Court as we speak. They are deliberating whether or not Corporations have the same rights as individuals and are afforded the same free speech rights as an individual. If they are afforded free speech rights... then what's next? Voting rights? This is an affront to our freedoms in grand spectacle. If those corporations are allowed free reign over our election process... we won't have a democracy anymore... we will have a fascist state where corporations control the government even more than they do now.

split_joel

Do you listen to everything that big corp media tells you? The tea partys are not made up of many true conservative, and if you had any clue then you would look up libertarian then listen to ron paul. Although the libaterians are not called conservatives, this is what the conservative party was based on plus or minus a few religious beliefs. As a conservative this is what I want from my government.

THAT IS IT! Limited government, leave it up to the states as it was when this country is founded, if you wanna call me an idiot for that then you are more of a nut job then the people who listen to rush or mark.

Also if you knew anything there is quite a difference between a conservative and a republican and a liberal and a democrat.

The republicans are what you are speaking out against and I do not support them either

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Wizzo

Wow, some actual good points being made and glad people are starting to realize it's the political parties that are the real threat and interestingly enough the one man that turned down being King of America, George Washington a true patriot , warned that if we allowed political parties to form it would be the downfall of what we have built...

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eZe

Yes people are this gullible. The game is the get the emotional label/frame into the main stream media. Everytime the label is heard or spoken in CREATES neural pathways that trigger an emotional reaction. REGARDLESS of its truth.

take "War on Terror" come on.... really???? I saw it on TV it must be true.

The first paragraph you wrote is the idea of defining "framing" the debate in an emotional issue. Emotion trumps logic. This is the reason they vote against their own self interest. i.e. the emotion of the abortion issue trumps the logic of I think he will do a better job.

Liberals have long argued on the basis of logic not emotion. Crazy you would think it just the opposite but not so. Look at global warming as an issue. No amount of scientist saying it is real is going to win vs. job loss.

If you want better examples listen to this. It is fascinating. http://www.ad-traffic.com/lakoff.mp3

cykoe6

You are an idiot.

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kane

I don't think I said that liberals use emotion in the debates as much as conservatives. My point is that conservatives have been able to turn the word 'liberal' into a dirty word. They call someone a 'liberal' and it is almost a slander and they have been able to convince a lot of people in this country that anything that has to do with 'liberals' is bad for the nation.

eZe

I don't think we are disagreeing. I am saying this is a byproduct of conservative framing issues emotional terms.

nation-x

Really? I think you were just proven to be the idiot.

nation-x

You obviously didn't read what I posted.

Tom_PM

When one mentions the better use of emotional terms and words and titles the republicans use to gather their loyals, one must remember that part of the republican loyals are religious types. They are like wicks for the flame of believe what I tell you politics. It's what they live all of their lives. Faith in things that directly contradict facts is like mothers milk.

Luckily, the united states is not a 2 party system and never has been. Just because a party used to be popular doesnt mean it has to be "saved" or resurrected or redefined. Pick a new party that better represents your own values is a better choice IMHO, and by the way even better, vote on the content of a candidates character, not on the color of their affiliation.

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kane

For sure. I think just the religious aspect of the conservatives gives them more of an ability to manipulate voters on an emotional level. Not to mention other sticking points like guns and abortion.

cykoe6

By you linking to the Wikipedia definition of anarchist and trying to imply that I am an anarchist? Believing in limited government does not make me an anarchist any more than you having earned your GED in prison makes you an intellectual.

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webair

Joel I think you would make / ar a SUPER dad! Your like a big kid! And i mean that in the kindest sense.

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nation-x

Oh Hah! You got me there didn't you! Not...

YOU were defining what a conservative was... a conservative is not what you said it was... that is where the grab is bro... you don't even know what the fuck you believe.

cykoe6

You like to use the dictionary so here is a definition that might interest you.

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Bill8

Nice to see a bit of reasonable discussion about this topic, not the girlish whining you usually hear from the corporatist "republican" right wingers.

Sadly, libertarians can't govern, and I say this as a lifelong registered and donating libertarian. There is an inherent flaw in libertarian political theory, in that it depends on an intelligent and well educated population.

Which we do not have, and arguably cannot have.

I often use the term "corporatist" as a way of indicating the political theory that we are really ruled by a class of elites that use the artificial personhood of corporations to hide and manipulate.

Both republicans and democrats are actually corporatists, in this model. The media is a wholly owned product of corporatist influence. yada yada yada.

And there is no easy way out of this situation, short of a a massive change in electoral policy that takes the money out of elections, combining with an equally massive shift in corruption investigations that assumes that politicians are corruptible, rather than treating them like mini kings and queens who are unimpeachable and beyond reproach.

And this is unlikely to happen.