Epoch is asking to see two of my models IDs - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Stacks Banned for Life · 09-20-2009, 12:20 PM

Supply them with redacted ID's, and that should be enough to prove their age.

50 Epoch requests

CaptainHowdy · 09-20-2009, 12:23 PM

Don't mess with the DWB ...

AmeliaG · 09-20-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

But who supervises them with this information? How can THEY be trusted? So what, some guy at Epoch turns out to be a kook, he stalks one of the girls, rapes her or worse, and if anyone even ties it to him, Epoch just fires him and keeps on trucking.

No fucking way. Give some unknown guy YOUR personal information if you are so comfy with it. You're a sexy gurl, you should not have anything to worry about, right? I mean, they bill for our sites, why would they have freaks working there?

If they were asking to see all of your paperwork for every single shoot, that would be asking you to go to a lot of bother, but, if there are just two girls they are concerned about, that seems like a way less annoying compliance interaction than, uhm, many. I would definitely recommend talking to your rep or asking support to put you in touch with someone in compliance though, if you want to be on the safe side.

And, yes, I've sent my ID to both Epoch and CCBill.

DWB · 09-20-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lagcam

If the content is more than 2 years old as stated, then the chances are that the ID in question is a paper Thai ID card that is written in Thai including the date of birth, and without checking with the Thai authorities I doubt anybody would be able to conclusivey verify if it was genuine or not.

At that time, even genuine ID cards looked like they had been done on an etch a sketch and put through the washing machine. The newer ones are in plastc form, have thai and English, and also contain a chip, but more than two years ago very few had them.

It's not Thai IDs, it's from Latin America. One from Cuba, the other from Colombia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim_Gunn

DWB, did they even provide a reason for the request when they originally contacted you?

Hey Jim,
They sure did.

"The models Anna & Claudi appear fairly young. Please forward us your 2257 documentation for these models so that we can verify they were of legal age at the time of the shoot."

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatif_3

if i was epoch i would can your ass

If I were you, I would start trying to figure out how to flip burgers again, because if you don't protect the people you work with, you will be out of a job real quick.

DWB · 09-20-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

DWB - There is no one in this business that will argue with you about your completely justified intentions to protect your models. You are absolutely right to do everything within your power to ensure their safety and protect their privacy. On this point we completely agree.

That's a start. However, unless you guys are going to give me YOUR IDs, and sign a document that Epoch will assume ALL liability should something happen to my models due to this, including breaking the privacy laws within their own countries, then it's not going to happen. Though, I'm going to take a guess that you guys will not be doing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

we are obligated to do everything we can to ensure that the sites we process for produce content which is legal and abides by association rules. We are your connection to the banks and card associations who will not contact you directly if a question were to arise.

I am obligated to do everything I can to ensure that the models I work with are safe and sound. I will not violate their safety, unless LAW ENFORCEMENT makes me do so. But, only during regular business hours, at the address listed on my 2257 compliance page. Why should Epoch get special treatment when the FBI has to follow the rules of inspection? Think about that for a minute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

Epoch passes an annual audit to ensure the security of our services. All employees who work in our risk-management and legal departments are all qualified, professional individuals who've been with us for at least five years.

Five whole years? Sure, I'll trust them then, why not?

I've been doing this for 11 and never once had a single problem, as I am a professional, working in the online and DVD markets. I'm qualified too. In fact, I'm a hell of a lot more qualified that your employees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

I invite you to come down to Epoch's offices and meet each of them and decide for yourself if you believe anyone has any mislead intentions. I'll even take you to lunch.

I've been there and your team took me to lunch, a little Italian place just around the corner from your office. It was damn good too. Thank you. But that doesn't mean I would give my models IDs to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

I can assure you that any identification request is legitimate regardless of previous approval or length of time the content has been online.

I can assure you all of my models IDs are legit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

We don't ask for 2257 documentation for fun, we do it because we are obligated to do so for the protection of everyone involved.

Then you won't mind also giving me the IDs of everyone who will be viewing my models IDs, along with a signed document that Epoch will assume ALL liability should something happen to my models due to all of this? I wouldn't ask for such a thing for fun, I do it because I am obligated to do so for the protection of everyone I work with.

This is pretty plain and simple. You are asking for something that you have no need to see. If Visa wants to see it, they can get with the FBI and visit the address listed, during normal business hours. You can come with them if you want. Those are the rules, and Epoch should play by them too. You are not above the law.

You have your Privacy Policy and I have mine. I'm not going to violate mine in order to please someone who is not affiliated with a government agency. Your Privacy Policy protects members, mine protects models. The safety of my models comes before the employees who have been working with at Epoch for 5 whole years. The same as you will not release your employees data to me, I'm not going to release my models to you.

spazlabz · 09-20-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

It came from a "Support Specialist." Not from either department you listed.

That would set my alarm bells off and I would contact my account manager and speak with him. If worse comes to worse I would call Risk and/or compliance myself and ask what is up. I have the numbers and believe me, with out sites we get asked for IDs on a schedule LOL

spaz

DWB · 09-20-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spazlabz

I have the numbers and believe me, with our sites we get asked for IDs on a schedule LOL

I just don't see why THEY need to see yours, mine or anyones IDs, without the proper authorities assisting them.

We all have to keep our documents and list where they are on your 2257 compliance page, so that a government agency, be it the FBI or local law enforcement, can inspect those records during normal business hours. WHY is Epoch above that? If the FBI can not send me an email and get those documents, Epoch sure as hell isn't going to.

The address for that content is listed on the 2257 page on my sites. They can call the FBI and go see them during normal business hours, just like everyone else has to. To give Epoch special privileges, when they are not associated with the law, is just reckless.

Have some fucking balls people. Why does the FBI (or any other government agency) have to visit your office during normal business hours (not get the docs via email), but you will give the same documents to Epoch via email, upon their email request, and send them to Epoch employees who could abuse the information you send them? That's madness.

Rand · 09-20-2009, 02:31 PM

DWB - We are in business together. But we have a lot of interests to protect, not just yours or ours. We are a well established billing company, going on fourteen years in this business. Why you believe we would jeopardize our operations over your site or anyone's make no sense to me.

Our agreement with each other states our policies of what we will and will not process for and the terms that you agree to abide by. My guess is that any IPSP out there is going to request the same to protect their business as well. Your processor helps you to remain compliant so your site(s) do not escalate to the point of the FBI or VISA requesting documentation. It's part of why you use an IPSP.

My only suggestion is if you don't want to provide the requested documentations is to remove the models in question

If you want to discuss this Monday with our risk department we can do that.

.

Tickler · 09-20-2009, 02:32 PM

DWB, I agree with you about only releasing them to the designated FBI personnel per regulations. The 2257 information is there for government legal purposes, not for general corporate use.

Epoch, if you so desperately need the information, then I suggest you use the proper channels for it. I'm sure DWB will be more than willing to permit the FBI to check the 2257 for you under the current legal regulations.

datatank · 09-20-2009, 02:38 PM

You are going to say goodbye to all your epoch rebills just for the sake of not showing a models ID?

CIVMatt · 09-20-2009, 02:38 PM

Bullshit, is Epoch has a problem they should contact the authoities and work through an official member of law enforcement

spazlabz · 09-20-2009, 02:43 PM

I see it as a 'like it or not it is part of doing business in this business' especially if you use a 3rd party biller. They make the rules. I curious about one thing...

Rand, is it in Epoch's contract/agreement/ToS that you have the right to inspect documents? I suspect it is

spaz

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

DWB - We are in business together.

Our agreement with each other states our policies of what we will and will not process for and the terms that you agree to abide by. My guess is that any IPSP out there is going to request the same to protect their business as well. Your processor helps you to remain compliant so your site(s) do not escalate to the point of the FBI or VISA requesting documentation. It's part of why you use an IPSP.

My only suggestion is if you don't want to provide the requested documentations is to remove the models in question

.

Kinda what I figured, in regards to how this conversation or discussion on legalities would go.

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tickler

Epoch, if you so desperately need the information, then I suggest you use the proper channels for it. I'm sure DWB will be more than willing to permit the FBI to check the 2257 for you under the current legal regulations.

Are you actually serious?

Who in the fuck wants the FBI or any other government agency poking around their business office is beyond me. I am all for standing your ground when you think there is something wrong, or unfair, but this situation is just crazy.

Call in the FBI to check docs instead of just handing them over to your billing company and defacto PARTNER IN BUSINESS?

Fucking unreal.

andrej_NDC · 09-20-2009, 02:47 PM

Some of you don't see a difference in showing your own ID at bars and showing IDs of other people? You can do whatever you want with your ID, its your right, but that doesn't mean you can do the same with IDs that don't belong to you. I think epoch is trying to play the police here.

XPays · 09-20-2009, 02:48 PM

you trust them to hold the credit card numbers of the members of your site, but not id's?

Rand · 09-20-2009, 02:51 PM

Why anyone would prefer to have the FBI knocking on their door instead of cooperating with their processor is beyond me.

You have to show ID to enter a bar. It is not unreasonable to request ID to process adult content which uses federally regulated monetary instruments especially if there is a question regarding that content.

Deej · 09-20-2009, 02:53 PM

It blows me away all the time as to how much sense DWB makes, even if it is right there im front of our noses already...

I totally agree with you DWB...

One person that is in it it for the profession and for the all around right things. Someone that dosnt hold their profit above their morals and success. Funny its coming from one of the people that most would least expect it from.

Any time we meet DWB... drinks, food and tranny hookers ar eon me!

Deej · 09-20-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

Why anyone would prefer to have the FBI knocking on their door instead of cooperating with their processor is beyond me.

You have to show ID to enter a bar. It is not unreasonable to request ID to process adult content which uses federally regulated monetary instruments especially if there is a question regarding that content.

I dont think hes saying he wants the fbi there...

he may have said come witht hem, but i think his point is that you are trying to do something that the fbi is not allowed to do themselves. If you truly need the documentation then you can take the same route that the fbi... which by all means is above you... has to take...

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Some of you don't see a difference in showing your own ID at bars and showing IDs of other people? You can do whatever you want with your ID, its your right, but that doesn't mean you can do the same with IDs that don't belong to you. I think epoch is trying to play the police here.

Let me make sure I follow your GFY logic....

So you want your billing company, and defacto partner in the adult business to..

1. Trust in you and your sites that you are following the VISA/TOS rules and regs
2. Trust in your transactions and that they are not fraud or illegal
3. Trust your members, and customer base to this 3rd party biller
4. Trust that they will pay you/and your affiliates promptly.

But you do not TRUST THEM with your docs??

Fucking unreal.

Deej · 09-20-2009, 02:57 PM

problem is epoch dosnt care about their profit loss with dwb and dwb dosnt care about his profit loss with epoch. so youre both willing to throw it away for policies and morals...

now which do you find more commendable... policy and profit or morals and safety of models.

I dont think for one second that epoch is going to endanger one of DWB's models, but thats not for me to risk. its for him...

DWB · 09-20-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

DWB - We are in business together. But we have a lot of interests to protect, not just yours or ours.

Our agreement with each other states our policies of what we will and will not process for and the terms that you agree to abide by. My guess is that any IPSP out there is going to request the same to protect their business as well. Your processor helps you to remain compliant so your site(s) do not escalate to the point of the FBI or VISA requesting documentation. It's part of why you use an IPSP.

If you want to discuss this Monday with our risk department we can do that.

You can visit my place of business, for that content, listed on my 2257 compliance page, the same as the FBI or any other government agency has to do. Epoch is not above the government.

I welcome an FBI inspection, and do not fear it, as I have nothing to hide. I come from the DVD side of the industry and many of us have already been inspected by Chuck Joyner, back when they were doing inspections. He did it the correct way, as will your company, or you will not get the IDs your "Support Specialist" requires.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

We are a well established billing company, going on fourteen years in this business. Why you believe we would jeopardize our operations over your site or anyone's make no sense to me.

Indeed you are, and I am one of the largest producers, if not the largest, in all South East Asia, and have been for 11 years, going on 12. Why would I jeopardize my operations and the safety of my models over your 3rd party processing company, or anyone elses company, makes no sense to me.

How can you be so sure one of your employees does not have a malicious motive? One of the posts early in this thread leads to believe someone from your company was unethical during a cam chat. Maybe that is true, maybe it is not, but I WILL NOT jeopardize a models safety if there is ANY chance of a rouge employee you may not currently know about.

Like I said, you are not above a government agency. You can inspect my records the same as they have to, so long as you come with someone from law enforcement. If that is unacceptable to Epoch, please take it up with those who wrote the 2257 laws. I'm sure they will be more than happy to accommodate your business and change the law for you. Just tell them Visa wants them to do it. That works well for site compliance, I'm sure the law makers will buy it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

My only suggestion is if you don't want to provide the requested documentations is to remove the models in question.

Or, remove Epoch from our cascade. Unfortunately this seems to be the only option, as I know Epoch will not be visiting my place of records along side a government agency, or providing me with the IDs of every Epoch employee who will view these documents, as well as a signed document that makes Epoch fully responsible for ANYTHING that should come of this that is damaging, physically, mentally or legally to the models. But hey, if you are game and accommodate my personal privacy policy, lets do it! However, I'm not going to hold my breath, as I'm sure it would violate Epoch's employee privacy policy to provide me with that information.

Deej · 09-20-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

You can visit my place of business, for that content, listed on my 2257 compliance page, the same as the FBI or any other government agency has to do. Epoch is not above the government.

I welcome an FBI inspection, and do not fear it, as I have nothing to hide. I come from the DVD side of the industry and many of us have already been inspected by Chuck Joyner, back when they were doing inspections. He did it the correct way, as will your company, or you will not get the IDs your "Support Specialist" requires.

Indeed you are, and I am one of the largest producers, if not the largest, in all South East Asia, and have been for 11 years, going on 12. Why would I jeopardize my operations and the safety of my models over your 3rd party processing company, or anyone elses company, makes no sense to me.

How can you be so sure one of your employees does not have a malicious motive? One of the posts early in this thread leads to believe someone from your company was unethical during a cam chat. Maybe that is true, maybe it is not, but I WILL NOT jeopardize a models safety if there is ANY chance of a rouge employee you may not currently know about.

Like I said, you are not above a government agency. You can inspect my records the same as they have to, so long as you come with someone from law enforcement. If that is unacceptable to Epoch, please take it up with those who wrote the 2257 laws. I'm sure they will be more than happy to accommodate your business and change the law for you. Just tell them Visa wants them to do it. That works well for site compliance, I'm sure the law makers will buy it too.

Or, remove Epoch from our cascade. Unfortunately this seems to be the only option, as I know Epoch will not be visiting my place of records along side a government agency, or providing me with the IDs of every Epoch employee who will view these documents, as well as a signed document that makes Epoch fully responsible for ANYTHING that should come of this that is damaging, physically, mentally or legally to the models. But hey, if you are game and accommodate my personal privacy policy, lets do it! However, I'm not going to hold my breath, as I'm sure it would violate Epoch's employee privacy policy to provide me with that information.

Baddog once said he was deemed an intellectual terrorist...

I think you too can be titled as such...

andrej_NDC · 09-20-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Let me make sure I follow your GFY logic....

So you want your billing company, and defacto partner in the adult business to..

1. Trust in you and your sites that you are following the VISA/TOS rules and regs
2. Trust in your transactions and that they are not fraud or illegal
3. Trust your members, and customer base to this 3rd party biller
4. Trust that they will pay you/and your affiliates promptly.

But you do not TRUST THEM with your docs??

Fucking unreal.

Do you guys have no privacy laws in the states? Or maybe privacy doesn't even exist there anymore? Everywhere else it would be illegal what epoch wants.

And just because I choose a biller, doesn't mean I have to trust them, there aren't many to choose from, so you have to choose the best of whats available.

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

problem is epoch dosnt care about their profit loss with dwb and dwb dosnt care about his profit loss with epoch. so youre both willing to throw it away for policies and morals...

now which do you find more commendable... policy and profit or morals and safety of models.

I dont think for one second that epoch is going to endanger one of DWB's models, but thats not for me to risk. its for him...

Agreed.

I, unlike a lot of people in this thread, am in the same boat as DWB. We both shoot content, and have to deal with 2257 as content producers.

That said, I simply prefer to pick my battles, and this is not one worth fighting, to me personally. However, DBW has his own motives, and business to run. I like DWB on a personal level, and I am not saying he is necessarily right or wrong. However, I simply do not see the point in all this.

When I sign up with a processor, I know they are little more than a middle man in the transaction process. We are in business together. I agree to their terms, just like they have to agree to the terms with their merchant bank, and their merchant bank with VISA.

I am essentially trusting them to not rip me, or my members, off. Trusting my members billing information with them. Trusting I will be paid for my memberships, and so forth. I am putting a lot of trust in them to remain IN business. If they had a question, like in this DWB case, I would just block out the non-essential (contact) info and show them whatever so I could get back to business. Not make a federal case about it, nor lose my rebills or effect my customers negatively over something like this.

But that's just me.

Sausage · 09-20-2009, 03:08 PM

Blank out the info that could lead to any harm, otherwise there must be another reason that you are dodging the request.

You do have the id's right ?????????????

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

And just because I choose a biller, doesn't mean I have to trust them, there aren't many to choose from, so you have to choose the best of whats available.

Sorry champ.

But when you sign up with a processor, you agree to their T.O.S.. It is a contact like any other. With processing companies, they have a section for compliance. If you do not want to use a third party processor, and agree to their terms, you go out and get yourself, and company, it's own merchant account.

Or do you not have contracts where you are from?

DWB · 09-20-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datatank

You are going to say goodbye to all your epoch rebills just for the sake of not showing a models ID?

Look, I may be a lot of things, and not all of them pleasant, but one thing I do is take care of the people who work with me. If that means I have to lose a little money and change processors, so be it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Are you actually serious?

Who in the fuck wants the FBI or any other government agency poking around their business office is beyond me. I am all for standing your ground when you think there is something wrong, or unfair, but this situation is just crazy.

Call in the FBI to check docs instead of just handing them over to your billing company and defacto PARTNER IN BUSINESS?

Fucking unreal.

Dude, I'm from the DVD world. Many of us have already been through inspections. It's no big deal if you have your house in order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Some of you don't see a difference in showing your own ID at bars and showing IDs of other people? You can do whatever you want with your ID, its your right, but that doesn't mean you can do the same with IDs that don't belong to you. I think epoch is trying to play the police here.

Exactly. If they want to see MY ID, lets do it. That is MY call to make. It is NOT my call to show them the ID of my models.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XPays

you trust them to hold the credit card numbers of the members of your site, but not id's?

It's not about that. It's about a potential employee using the information he receieves to stalk or harm the model. THIS IS PORN. There are some FREAKY fucking people around it. I don't trust anyone with the models IDs unless they are associated with law enforcement, and even then it's a risk, but its a risk you legally must take. But some dude at Epoch... not a chance. That guy will not be stalking a site member, should that guy turn out to be a nut job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand

Why anyone would prefer to have the FBI knocking on their door instead of cooperating with their processor is beyond me.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I trust the FBI with my IDs. Well, not totally, but more than some guys sitting at the other end of an email, who all work in the porn business. This business draws some crazy people to it, and I just can't take that chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

problem is epoch dosnt care about their profit loss with dwb and dwb dosnt care about his profit loss with epoch. so youre both willing to throw it away for policies and morals...

now which do you find more commendable... policy and profit or morals and safety of models.

I stand by the people who work with me. They are the reason I work. I won't risk their safety for a second, even if I lose a little money over it. I can sleep at night knowing I lost money, I wouldn't be able to sleep if something happened to one of those girls because of something that happened with Epoch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

I dont think for one second that epoch is going to endanger one of DWB's models, but thats not for me to risk. its for him...

Chances are there would be NO harm at all, as I hope everyone there is above board. But why take that chance when I don't have to? There are ALWAYS rouge employees out there and the porn industry seems to have more than most. It's just not worth the risk.

Deej · 09-20-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Agreed.

I, unlike a lot of people in this thread, am in the same boat as DWB. We both shoot content, and have to deal with 2257 as content producers.

That said, I simply prefer to pick my battles, and this is not one worth fighting, to me personally. However, DBW has his own motives, and business to run. I like DWB on a personal level, and I am not saying he is necessarily right or wrong. However, I simply do not see the point in all this.

When I sign up with a processor, I know they are little more than a middle man in the transaction process. We are in business together. I agree to their terms, just like they have to agree to the terms with their merchant bank, and their merchant bank with VISA.

I am essentially trusting them to not rip me, or my members, off. Trusting my members billing information with them. Trusting I will be paid for my memberships, and so forth. I am putting a lot of trust in them to remain IN business. If they had a question, like in this DWB case, I would just block out the non-essential (contact) info and show them whatever so I could get back to business. Not make a federal case about it, nor lose my rebills or effect my customers negatively over something like this.

But that's just me.

I agree with you BF... I sorta feel DWB is being a little strict here, but its his right to preotect his assets... hes not just thinking about rebills and these models, hes thinkign about his business as a whole and its future. Is it right or wrong whats hes doing, thats for neither of us or anyone else to decide, as im sure you agree.

but what i do feel... what epoch is asking isnt unreasonable... just as what DWB is asking isnt unreasonable. DWB has very good points... I mean he could sit ther and oblige epoch with instant ids... but hes not bending the law for anyone it seems. Seems he feels that anyone below the law can take the same route that the law takes to obtain such id if they so deem it necessary

WiredGuy · 09-20-2009, 03:17 PM

Assuming you refuse and change to another processor. Don't you think its reasonable to assume the new processor would request the same thing as well? It seems to make more sense to provide a blacked out version of the required ID's to simply prove her age and screen out their addresses/contact info.
WG

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

I agree with you BF... I sorta feel DWB is being a little strict here, but its his right to preotect his assets... hes not just thinking about rebills and these models, hes thinkign about his business as a whole and its future. Is it right or wrong whats hes doing, thats for neither of us or anyone else to decide, as im sure you agree.

Agreed.

It's DWB business to do whatever he likes. His position, or what he does, is not going to effect me, nor my business, one way or the other. So personally, I could care less.

Carry on.

andrej_NDC · 09-20-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Or do you not have contracts where you are from?

A contract to get me to evade law? What kind of contract would that be? I'm pretty sure the privacy law is above the contract. Billing company is not police, thats not their job.

Deej · 09-20-2009, 03:18 PM

This all brings up a big question ive always had but never asked...

Say you have your own merchant account.

Why would you then take on a 3rd party processing? What do they bring to the table beneficially? Do they ensure transactions? do they ensure checks get sent? What are the pros of epoch and ccbill? Why dont people get their own merchant accounts?

Deej · 09-20-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Agreed.

It's DWB business to do whatever he likes. His position, or what he does not effect me, nor my business, one way or the other. So personally, I could care less.

Carry on.

uncool BF... dont just deflect with its not hurting my biz... moving oin... FIGHT DAMMIT!

Deej · 09-20-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiredGuy

Assuming you refuse and change to another processor. Don't you think its reasonable to assume the new processor would request the same thing as well? It seems to make more sense to provide a blacked out version of the required ID's to simply prove her age and screen out their addresses/contact info.
WG

IS this what theyre worried about? is the models in question looking young? We dont know that...

or did i miss that?

is that the only reason epoch would ask for id?

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

A contract to get me to evade law? What kind of contract would that be? I'm pretty sure the privacy law is above the contract. Billing company is not police, thats not their job.

You enter, READ, and sign an agreement with a processing company, and agree to follow their rules and regulations. That includes compliance.

If you do not like their rules, you do not do business with them. Better yet, you do not ENTER AN AGREEMENT. Go get your own merchant account if you do not like the rules of third party processors.

If you think U.S. based processors are unfair, breaking your laws, are the Dubya of adult online, then go find one in your area of the world that matches your business model and practices.

Common sense.

BVF · 09-20-2009, 03:26 PM

I would love to see an Epoch grunt worker use a girl's information, then track her down in COLOMBIA, then hurt or kill her, and THEN see all of that shit tie back to DWB with a strong enough case that they can launch an international lawsuit to hold him responsible.

But the thing is......As crazy as that sounds, at least the tracking down part is somewhat feasible......Fuckers are crazy enough to actually show up in another country with pictures in hand.

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

This all brings up a big question ive always had but never asked...

Say you have your own merchant account.

Why would you then take on a 3rd party processing? What do they bring to the table beneficially? Do they ensure transactions? do they ensure checks get sent? What are the pros of epoch and ccbill? Why dont people get their own merchant accounts?

After the iBills iMonde and other billers who have went under. Most people use more than one processor to spread the risk. So if one goes under, you do not lose everything. Also some offer things others do not. Verotel covers things CCB doesn't for example. EU Direct Debit, and some Korean card, SMS, etc..

Rules of merchant banks vary. The biggest issue, U.S. based, is you have to do enough volume monthly. There are a few other sticking points, in there as well that escape my at the moment.

Also, third party billers handle customer support, charge backs, and scrubbing. Something you, and your business, would have to do yourself with your own merchant account unless you hire outside service.

There are parts I am leaving out, but that is the long story short of it.

DWB · 09-20-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

I simply prefer to pick my battles, and this is not one worth fighting, to me personally. However, DBW has his own motives, and business to run. I like DWB on a personal level, and I am not saying he is necessarily right or wrong. However, I simply do not see the point in all this.

I am essentially trusting them to not rip me, or my members, off. Trusting my members billing information with them. Trusting I will be paid for my memberships, and so forth. I am putting a lot of trust in them to remain IN business. If they had a question, like in this DWB case, I would just block out the non-essential (contact) info and show them whatever so I could get back to business. Not make a federal case about it, nor lose my rebills or effect my customers negatively over something like this.

In addition to thinking it is wrong for a processor to ask for such documents, lets look at one more, highly improbable freak of chance. Some of the countries I shoot in (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba) would literally arrest the model in question and she would spend the rest of her days rotting behind bars, for making porn. So long as her true identity is safe with me, and my sites blocked from her country, there will never be a problem. As soon as I start passing those IDs around and someone knows so much as her name, if that somehow, in some freak chance, got to the wrong hands, she is fucked.

Now, one of the models in question is Cuban, and lives IN Cuba, where the scene was shot. Lets say someone on staff at Epoch is Cuban and they tell someone in their family they just saw Cuban porn for the first time and her name was XXXXXXX. This person talks, that person talks, it makes it back to Cuba somehow and the girl is arrested.

OF COURSE that is a reach, but stranger things have happened. I once shot a black girl in BRAZIL who I met at random, who happened to turn out to be the girlfriend of one of my friends who lives in FRANCE. What are the odds of that? Shit happens. I also know a person who has been struck by lightning THREE TIMES. What are the odds of that? Or, what if one of them KNOWS this girl and is trying to confirm its her for various reasons? My point is, shit happens. But shit doesn't happen on my watch, with my models, do to my reckless behavior.

This is not even getting into the rouge, sicko employee. Nor is it getting into the fact that they will continue to ask for more and more and more and more until you can't send the IDs and docs to them blacked out. They will baby step their way into it, just as everything else is baby stepped into play.

Last but not least, there are others who welcome my small business, without the hassle of showing them IDs of models who are clearly of age.

I like Epoch. I've been to their office and seen how they do things. But that does not mean I trust every employee inside of their swank office. Hell, I don't trust 90% of the people in this business in general.

DWB · 09-20-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BVF

I would love to see an Epoch grunt worker use a girl's information, then track her down in COLOMBIA, then hurt or kill her, and THEN see all of that shit tie back to DWB with a strong enough case that they can launch an international lawsuit to hold him responsible.

But the thing is......As crazy as that sounds, at least the tracking down part is somewhat feasible......Fuckers are crazy enough to actually show up in another country with pictures in hand.

Dude, I have had MEMBERS, go to cities in other countries, with photos in hands and look for these girls. A few of them have been found!!! THIS SHIT HAPPENS!!!! Guys are fucking OUT OF CONTROL when it comes to pussy.

That's what I'm saying! No chances. It's not worth it. If they NEED the IDs, get the FBI to accompany you and visit the address for that content on my 2257 page.

Sly · 09-20-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

You enter, READ, and sign an agreement with a processing company, and agree to follow their rules and regulations. That includes compliance.

If you do not like their rules, you do not do business with them. Better yet, you do not ENTER AN AGREEMENT. Go get your own merchant account if you do not like the rules of third party processors.

If you think U.S. based processors are unfair, breaking your laws, are the Dubya of adult online, then go find one in your area of the world that matches your business model and practices.

Common sense.

That isn't entirely true and he kind of has a legitimate point but it totally depends on the American privacy laws, which I do not know.

You can not be held to a contract if it forces you to do something illegal. So even though you read and sign a contract you are not completely bound to it if something within that contract requires you to do something that is illegal. Now, is handing over government issued IDs to a third parties illegal? I really haven't the slightest idea.

That would pretty much be the key element in the whole argument.

Though, now I'm wondering even further... European content producers. If I buy content from you, is it legal for you to give me the IDs? Because I want them. And if it is legal, why is it legal?

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

....

No worries man. Like I said previously, I have nothing against you or a personal agenda.

As I said, it is your business to run as you see fit, and I am sure you have your reasons for sticking to your guns that I simply can not fathom... like your explanation above.

I am not judging you, nor claiming to know better than you. I am simply saying, I would make a different decision based on my own business, and how I run it. No more. No less.

andrej_NDC · 09-20-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

You enter, READ, and sign an agreement with a processing company, and agree to follow their rules and regulations. That includes compliance.

If you do not like their rules, you do not do business with them. Better yet, you do not ENTER AN AGREEMENT. Go get your own merchant account if you do not like the rules of third party processors.

If you think U.S. based processors are unfair, breaking your laws, are the Dubya of adult online, then go find one in your area of the world that matches your business model and practices.

Common sense.

Why should I. I love the states and love to use companies from the US. Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they say and do. Don't you have your own opinion on things? Also, I don't think there is anything in the contract about checking personal info of girls they bill for.

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

That isn't entirely true and he kind of has a legitimate point but it totally depends on the American privacy laws, which I do not know.

You can not be held to a contract if it forces you to do something illegal. So even though you read and sign a contract you are not completely bound to it if something within that contract requires you to do something that is illegal. Now, is handing over government issued IDs to a third parties illegal? I really haven't the slightest idea.

That would pretty much be the key element in the whole argument.

Though, now I'm wondering even further... European content producers. If I buy content from you, is it legal for you to give me the IDs? Because I want them. And if it is legal, why is it legal?

"laws of the land".

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Why should I. I love the states and love to use companies from the US. Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they say and do. Don't you have your own opinion on things? Also, I don't think there is anything in the contract about checking personal info of girls they bill for.

1. You enter an agreement/contract with a company.
2. You sign that you have read, and will follow that agreement. Including compliance.

Regardless of where YOU are located.

TheDoc · 09-20-2009, 03:40 PM

I'm not reading all this..

But the short of what I have to say is...

If someone complained about you, said they owned the content, sent them a notice, or for compliance (you have to follow US Laws to be complaint)... you may have to provide an ID.

Black out everything but the name, picture, and birth date. Now the excuse about privacy is gone.

DWB · 09-20-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiredGuy

Assuming you refuse and change to another processor. Don't you think its reasonable to assume the new processor would request the same thing as well? It seems to make more sense to provide a blacked out version of the required ID's to simply prove her age and screen out their addresses/contact info.
WG

I already use CCbill, and they do not ask. IT IS NOT THEIR JOB to police IDs, they have all made that clear by processing for "GF" sites. Their job is to provide 3rd party billing. So do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Billing company is not police, thats not their job.

Exactly. They are a processor. THEY NEED TO PROCESS!!!

If they want to check IDs, they need to start with the GF sites and work down from there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

After the iBills iMonde and other billers who have went under.

Perfect. Globill, Ibill, iMonde... all GONE. Lets say Epoch goes too. It could happen. What about my IDs? Who gets them? Where do they go at that point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

IS this what theyre worried about? is the models in question looking young? We dont know that...

is that the only reason epoch would ask for id?

They said two models "appear fairly young."

The closest thing to young is one of them has braces.

DWB · 09-20-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I'm not reading all this..

But the short of what I have to say is...

If someone complained about you, said they owned the content, sent them a notice, or for compliance (you have to follow US Laws to be complaint)... you may have to provide an ID.

Black out everything but the name, picture, and birth date. Now the excuse about privacy is gone.

It's more than that. However, the name needs to be blocked out as well. You can do damage with someones name, if you also have their date of birth and their photo.

Epoch is not above a government agency. If they want the IDs, they can go WITH law enforcement, to the location listed for that content on my 2257 page, during normal business hours, and see them. That shouldn't be a problem. If the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have to do that, SO DOES EPOCH.

The FBI will not be sending an email to me to inspect my records, the same as I would not send the IDs to the FBI via email. Why is Epoch above the law?

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Perfect. Globill, Ibill, iMonde... all GONE. Lets say Epoch goes too. It could happen. What about my IDs? Who gets them? Where do they go at that point?

You are a big player BROmance. Can't your lawyer simply draft a simply docs that ID's will be destroyed upon verification? Get it signed, provide docs, the end.

Barefootsies · 09-20-2009, 03:50 PM

Double post

09-20-2009, 02:31 PM	#58
Rand Industry Vet Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Santa Monica, CA Posts: 2,663	DWB - We are in business together. But we have a lot of interests to protect, not just yours or ours. We are a well established billing company, going on fourteen years in this business. Why you believe we would jeopardize our operations over your site or anyone's make no sense to me. Our agreement with each other states our policies of what we will and will not process for and the terms that you agree to abide by. My guess is that any IPSP out there is going to request the same to protect their business as well. Your processor helps you to remain compliant so your site(s) do not escalate to the point of the FBI or VISA requesting documentation. It's part of why you use an IPSP. My only suggestion is if you don't want to provide the requested documentations is to remove the models in question If you want to discuss this Monday with our risk department we can do that. . __________________ -- Rand Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

09-20-2009, 02:32 PM	#59
Tickler Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 650	DWB, I agree with you about only releasing them to the designated FBI personnel per regulations. The 2257 information is there for government legal purposes, not for general corporate use. Epoch, if you so desperately need the information, then I suggest you use the proper channels for it. I'm sure DWB will be more than willing to permit the FBI to check the 2257 for you under the current legal regulations. __________________ Big Sister Live - Live sex club paid in Euros Why all the PSYCHIC ads in the papers, and on TV? Makes $$$s on the web @ Psychic Access

09-20-2009, 02:38 PM	#61
CIVMatt Amateur Pimpin Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 13,075	Bullshit, is Epoch has a problem they should contact the authoities and work through an official member of law enforcement __________________ Make easy money with Webcams

09-20-2009, 02:48 PM	#66
XPays Team Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Inside the most accurately counting and reporting affiliate system in the world at XPays.com Posts: 13,002	you trust them to hold the credit card numbers of the members of your site, but not id's? __________________ InterNext Expo Domain Auction Live Now thru Feb 5 HuntingMoon GFY Domains Marketplace is LIVE XPays always pays! Top Site: * RealJasmine.com * + HotelHeiress® with The Paris Hilton Sex Video Insert the HotelHeiress® HD FEED into your members areas XPin.com Opening for Pin Partners Soonish Mainstream Offers For Emailers and DomainersNONADULT.COM Like Us!

09-20-2009, 02:51 PM	#67
Rand Industry Vet Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Santa Monica, CA Posts: 2,663	Why anyone would prefer to have the FBI knocking on their door instead of cooperating with their processor is beyond me. You have to show ID to enter a bar. It is not unreasonable to request ID to process adult content which uses federally regulated monetary instruments especially if there is a question regarding that content. __________________ -- Rand Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

09-20-2009, 12:20 PM	#51
Stacks Banned for Life So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 304	Supply them with redacted ID's, and that should be enough to prove their age. 50 Epoch requests

09-20-2009, 12:23 PM	#52
CaptainHowdy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Happy in the dark. Posts: 93,569	Don't mess with the DWB ...

09-20-2009, 02:38 PM	#60
datatank Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: My dog is blacker than Tupac Posts: 5,471	You are going to say goodbye to all your epoch rebills just for the sake of not showing a models ID?

09-20-2009, 02:43 PM	#62
spazlabz Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 6,548	I see it as a 'like it or not it is part of doing business in this business' especially if you use a 3rd party biller. They make the rules. I curious about one thing... Rand, is it in Epoch's contract/agreement/ToS that you have the right to inspect documents? I suspect it is spaz

09-20-2009, 02:47 PM	#65
andrej_NDC Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 7,760	Some of you don't see a difference in showing your own ID at bars and showing IDs of other people? You can do whatever you want with your ID, its your right, but that doesn't mean you can do the same with IDs that don't belong to you. I think epoch is trying to play the police here.

09-20-2009, 02:53 PM	#68
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	It blows me away all the time as to how much sense DWB makes, even if it is right there im front of our noses already... I totally agree with you DWB... One person that is in it it for the profession and for the all around right things. Someone that dosnt hold their profit above their morals and success. Funny its coming from one of the people that most would least expect it from. Any time we meet DWB... drinks, food and tranny hookers ar eon me! __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880

09-20-2009, 02:57 PM	#71
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	problem is epoch dosnt care about their profit loss with dwb and dwb dosnt care about his profit loss with epoch. so youre both willing to throw it away for policies and morals... now which do you find more commendable... policy and profit or morals and safety of models. I dont think for one second that epoch is going to endanger one of DWB's models, but thats not for me to risk. its for him... __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880 Last edited by Deej; 09-20-2009 at 02:58 PM..

09-20-2009, 03:08 PM	#76
Sausage Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 3,012	Blank out the info that could lead to any harm, otherwise there must be another reason that you are dodging the request. You do have the id's right ?????????????

09-20-2009, 03:17 PM	#80
WiredGuy Pounding Googlebot Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 34,482	Assuming you refuse and change to another processor. Don't you think its reasonable to assume the new processor would request the same thing as well? It seems to make more sense to provide a blacked out version of the required ID's to simply prove her age and screen out their addresses/contact info. WG __________________ I play with Google.

09-20-2009, 03:18 PM	#83
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	This all brings up a big question ive always had but never asked... Say you have your own merchant account. Why would you then take on a 3rd party processing? What do they bring to the table beneficially? Do they ensure transactions? do they ensure checks get sent? What are the pros of epoch and ccbill? Why dont people get their own merchant accounts? __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880

09-20-2009, 03:26 PM	#87
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	I would love to see an Epoch grunt worker use a girl's information, then track her down in COLOMBIA, then hurt or kill her, and THEN see all of that shit tie back to DWB with a strong enough case that they can launch an international lawsuit to hold him responsible. But the thing is......As crazy as that sounds, at least the tracking down part is somewhat feasible......Fuckers are crazy enough to actually show up in another country with pictures in hand. __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!!

09-20-2009, 03:40 PM	#96
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	I'm not reading all this.. But the short of what I have to say is... If someone complained about you, said they owned the content, sent them a notice, or for compliance (you have to follow US Laws to be complaint)... you may have to provide an ID. Black out everything but the name, picture, and birth date. Now the excuse about privacy is gone. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

09-20-2009, 03:50 PM	#100
Barefootsies Choice is an Illusion Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Land of Obama Posts: 42,635	Double post __________________ Should You Email Your Members? Link1 \| Link2 \| Link3 Enough Said. "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"