Machete_

200 crazy tinfoil hats

Deej

Also a very good point. When arguing the fact of law abiding terms based around totally illegal content. Whats the point? Selective repression?

I agree anyone has the right to show off what they want but again we are dealing with other countries rather than whats right... correct?

I gotta say... as commendable as it is DWB... it might be futile and pointless to fight such a matter.

Still its up to you to run your biz as you see fit...

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DWB

Hell, it's illegal to shoot porn in Kentucky (and almost every other state), but that doesn't stop people from doing it. It's also illegal to drive your motorcycle on the sidewalk where I live, but everyone does that too. I generally like to live by the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law.

1) I'm saying it's not worth the risk. However, if there is no risk here, then lets all just post our IDs right here, along with our models, and everything will be just fine. No dirt bags in this business, right? Couldn't happen right? I mean, how could a company like Ibill steal millions from webmasters and remain in business today? Not possible right? Shit happens.

2) They need to verify those documents the same way any government agency would have to. Epoch is not above them.

3) If a bank called me and asked for my girlfriends ID, I would not give it to them. Actually, I would not even send them MY ID via email. I would go to the branch and deal with it.

4) If Epoch is legit, and I believe they are, they can get the docs the legit way, the same way the FBI would have to get them. What's the point of listing your 2257 custodian address if nobody has to follow the fucking rules to view the ID and documents?

Again with the risk. Do you know the risk that one of the models they want to see the ID of, took to make that video? Do you know how many years she will sit in a Cuban prison? Do you know the risk we took filming it? Not only for shooting porn in Cuba, but for going to Cuba in the first place (which alone can land you 7 years in an US prison)? Do you know we were arrested in Colombia a few days after shooting the other girl and I spent 3 days in a Colombian jail (eating old rice and water) while the Colombian police took their sweet time making sure the models were not minors? Sorry, but Epochs "risk" doesn't really make sympathetic towards them. Don't talk to me about risk, please. I take huge ones every day I leave my house to work.

I agree. He needs to bring back the old one.

It's a few hundred years old, from India. Worth a LOT. It may have a genie inside, I've never looked. If you never hear from me again and Epoch disappears, you will know the answer.

DWB

If they will take a blacked out ID that they can not verify is even real, then there is no point.

DWB

So Epoch is now above all law enforcement and government agencies, who has to actually go to your place of business to view the documents, during normal business hours, to see the same thing Epoch is requesting I send them via email, when I have no idea who is sitting at the other end of that email and if he is some sex crazed whack job or not, and you talk of tin foil hats?

I'm putting you on ignore.

Machete_

No, they are not above the law, but you are seriously nuts.

1 - as I said on page #1. They need ensure that content they provide processing for is legal - period

2 - Therefor they will ask for documentations for those THEY consider to be questioable.

3 - they did not ask for her Social## - but documentaion. ID with blacked out name and data (exept birthdate) have worked in every single case for me.

4 - if you dont want to provide the documentation, then that is your choise. You take your content off, or take your business somewhere else.


But instead you go nuts and think they want to stalk your models.

DWB

Then it stops here. Just because some of you roll over and take it in the ass anytime someone asks you to, doesn't mean we all have to. They need to check the IDs the same manner in which everyone else does. I don't know why that is so hard for some people to understand. WHY do I have a place of business, where my records are kept, where I pay someone to sit there during normal business hours, in case someone wants to inspect those records, and have Epoch pop up and void all of that, and want me to send them via email. That's just not gonna fly.


It's called having a backbone. Something most people around here have never heard of.

I didn't say I wouldn't give it to them. I said they have to get it in the same manner everyone else does, and with someone from law enforcement.


No, I plan for the worst, as I don't know the person who I would be emailing these IDs to. Why would I foolishly assume he is 100% OK or not OK? I can't. Neither can you, neither can Epoch. Maybe he is OK, maybe he is not, but for sure he has not had a thorough background check and is not associated with law enforcement. Why is it safe with an totally unknown person simply because someone else from a porn company says it is? Use your head for once.

Also, it's not all about safety. That is part of it, but it's not the entire issue. I have a serious problem with them acting above the law. What's good enough for the FBI should be good enough for a porn 3rd party billing company. The fact that it is not, is what's so damn scary.

Though, let me ask you, have you ever had one of your models stalked or raped from a site member who tracked her down? And what are the odds of that happening, as it does happen? Why couldn't someone from INSIDE the industry do the same? Chances are it wouldn't happen, but that 1% chance is more than I'm willing to take.

Machete_

you dont get it.

They are not above the law, they are following the law. You on the other hand want them to "just take your words for it" OR report you to the FBI and let the FBI request the ID, and then let the FBI report back to the processor.

If you go to a bar, and the bartender ask for some ID. Then you try telling him, that you wont show it to him, but he can call a COP and you will show it to the COP, who then can inform the bartender if you are of legal age or not

It is your job to protect the Models from stalkers - yes. But its also your job to document that your content is legal. If you or the model dont like taking those chances, then maybe you are in the wrong business.

No, I have not had a model stalked by anyone as far as we know, And I have documented age of models a few times now.

Gerco

Fuck Eproch

Dropped them years ago.

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AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

So where are the pix of the models in question?

It's not like you have been asked to post the model's ID pix here.

To some extent I am in agreement with you, however I don't understand why you would raise this issue without showing pix of the models in question.

You are quick to invoke your right to not disclose any model info to the people processing your transactions (which puts their business at risk), while simultaneously ignoring/flaunting the fact that you are breaking the law by shooting the content which you shoot (irregardless of the age of the models).

While protecting the personal details about your models is a noble cause, I question why you are unwilling to provide redacted ID's to a company processing your transactions, and have thus far, not posted pix of the models in question.

ADG

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andrej_NDC

Dude, you have no clue what the 2257 law is all about. The custodian of records is there for a reason.

Machete_

Did I say 2257 anywhere? please show me where I said anything about 2257 law here.

It seem like you also have a problem getting through your thick head, that the processor need to see some sort of ID or documentation, that the model on the site he want proccessing for, is in fact over 18, since that are unable to judge by looks only.

She aparently "LOOKS" underage, that is why they ask. And yet you want to make the processor out to be the bad guy here? are you out of your fucking mind? (wait, I already answered that before, so dont need to repeat that)

Then DWB want to "protect" the model by having the FBI verify the age. What do you think FBI does? if they got involved they would most likely contact the local government and ask them to verify her age.

Do you think the model is more safe when the local government (where shooting porn is against the law) know the name and ID of a model shooting porn?


Since you are to fucking stupid to understand this, I doubt i can dumb the essence of this problem down even further, for your to have a chance to understand.

CaptainHowdy

This is still going... fuck.

TheDoc

The risk you or a model took is not my problem, it's not epoch problems, and it's not the entire Industries problem. But the risks Epoch take and the people they do business with, is some what, my problem along with a huge part of the Industry... that you are willing to give the middle finger to.

You CAN black out the personal info on the ID's.. The risk is lower than sending the ID through the mail. So your excuse is thin and weak.

Clearly you have been hanging around whinny bitches way to long.

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TheDoc

....

....


You couldn't make this shit up...

Right now, I'm Charlie Brown smacking his head against the wall reading this thread.

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MaDalton

i wonder what happens when someone sets up a site with underage porn and Epoch is processing it without questioning...

As I said, I would block the full name and adress (if it's on the ID). pictures of them are on the internet already anyways and the birthday alone can't harm anyone

and, as much as I hate to say that, but those who mention that you are the one putting them at risk by shooting them in the beginning are probably right.

shoot porn in a country where it's legal and you don't have to worry.

but it probably does not make you that much money than shooting in Thailand or Cuba does - so maybe there is the problem..

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AaronM

I read the first 2 pages until Rand stopped responding, then I skimmed the rest of the thread to be sure that I didn't miss any more responses from him.
That being said....

DWB, although I understand Rand's point of view on Epoch's behalf, I FULLY agree with you.

What troubles me the most is that although Rand came in here to defend Epoch, he never once offered an explanation as to why Epoch requested I.D. from the 2 specific models. He spoke in generalities which leads me to believe that he is simply posting blindly as Epoch's PR mouth piece knowing absolutely nothing about this specific situation. For all we/DWB know, it's an Epoch programmer making the request after beating off all night to DWB's content.

I also read as Rand completely dismissed an accusation about one of Epoch's employees. I myself have PERSONALLY seen an Epoch employee handle a situation in a way that could easily be questioned by at least one 3 initial agency.

Might as well sweep it under the rug then instead of doing due diligence and looking into it.

I happen to like Rand but that doesn't mean I agree with him in this thread.

DWB

Oh, I get it. Apparently, based on your post, it is you who doesn't get it.

They need to go WITH law enforcement to the location of my records and inspect them in the manner anyone else would have to do so. They do not get a pass to get documents any faster than a government agency can get them.

If they follow the law, they can go to the address and inspect the records. That is the law. The law does not state to send some dude at "support" my documents. Perhaps you should read it.

That is MY ID. If I walk into a bar and the bar tender and order a drink, but the bar tender asks for my sisters ID, he's not going to get it.

All I can do is at that statement.

Then STFU. When you do, come back and lets talk.

DWB

It's not just that ADG, its a mix of things, but what really gets my goat is why they can just send an email, from some dude in support, to get these documents, when the police or FBI can not. This makes them above the law and I'm not OK with that. Giving IDs to law enforcement is TOTALLY different than giving them to some dude in support working for a porn company, regardless if they are a credit card gateway or not.

I don't have a problem blacking out EVERYTHING and sending this to them. But again it brings me to a point, which is, if everything is blacked out, then WHAT IS THE POINT? With no name, or no means to verify the ID is real, HOW DOES THAT PROTECT THEM? It doesn't. So this is another thing that irks me. It's just total bullshit, as nobody is protected from this, as they can not verify shit.

Pics are coming, hang tight.

SleazyDream

i have no idea how old some of the asian woman on your sites are - but they look young

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Machete_

That is the part you are not getting. Its not YOU being sold on the website. You are trying to peddle porn with a model that looks... fuck it... I dont give a shit, do as you want. Maybe you can ask your friends in your sig for processing advice - they seem to know a lot.

DWB

This is 100% about 2257. This is what Epoch requested: "Please forward us your 2257 documentation for these models so that we can verify they were of legal age at the time of the shoot."

2257 is why we have to have IDs. NO OTHER REASON.

Just curious, do you use Ibill for processing? You are striking me as the type who would.


No, I want Epoch to have to view the IDs in the same manner the FBI would, and yea, with someone from law with them. Dude, I don't give a FUCK if the FBI wants to see my records. Why would I? Unless you are hiding something, you shouldn't either. At least they could 100% verify the model is of age, while Epoch can not, as they would get a totally blacked out ID. It makes no sense at all and protects no one.


Ummm, yes. I do not fear US authorities when it comes to 2257. They can not and will not cause problems for me for shooting in countries where it is illegal to shoot.

You need to get a batter grasp of how things work, both with 2257, inspections and the law.

DWB

BULLSHIT. Blacking out the ID protects NO ONE!!!!! How can it if the ID can not be verified?

OK, so they say, "that model looks young, send me your 2257 docs" and I do, but it's totally blacked out, except her name and her DOB. HOW IN THE FUCK can they determine that ID is real and valid? They don't even have her fucking name!!!

It's all BS man, it protects no one this way.

No, it seems like you are quick to roll over and take it in the ass from anyone who wants to give it. Just because they ask for it, doesn't mean they should have access to it.

TheDoc

Dude, they aren't a factor in the law. They aren't a Gov/State agency - they can't use the law, they can't enforce the law, they can't inspect you.

It's a law for our gov to inspect you.. not for others to inspect you. They actually have ZERO power to inspect you under the 2257 law.

However, they 100% have the power and LEGAL RIGHT to ASK you to prove ownership, age, and/or just to see if you 'follow' the laws in America. It's called 2257 documents, thus they asked you for them.

That DOES NOT give them the legal right to inspect you.

They check to make sure you don't have beast porn, rape, death, they also make sure it's legal age. They have the full and legal right to ask you to take something down or prove ownership, prove age, prove anything they choose.

Just like you have to the right to say no - they have the right to deny you because you failed to prove that you do comply with the law.


For the safety all of us in this business... they shouldn't process you until you prove the age.

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TheDoc

How the hell does anyone know if it's real? If the picture looks like the girl, even the FBI wouldn't have a clue unless they ran a check.

Again... you will send it through the mail/fedex which is 10000000x more unsecure than sending them blacked out ID's to epoch.


No I understand that Epoch is a 3rd party company leasing me the use of something they own that is like 10000x more valuable than my company and it effects 100's if not 1000's of other owners.

And I RESPECT that...

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DWB

Underage porn is clearly underage porn. We all know that. That is not what I shoot, and everyone knows that too.

Sure, and what then does it prove? No name, no address, no way to verify the ID is real or even who it is. Who does THAT protect then? What point does that serve? I could shoot a 17 year old girl, block it all out, and tell them I shot it AFTER her 18th birthday, and there is NO WAY to confirm that. That's my other point, it's all bullshit.

You may be right. But when I shoot them, I'm not thinking my procesisng company is going to have some dude from support hitting me up to see their IDs.

Yea, yea, then I will be broke like many of you guys who are dying a slow death right now. No thanks.

Exactly. This has always been my niche and I'm not about to change that.

DWB

Aaron,
You nailed it on the head.

In addition to my own fear of problems with them and the IDs, when I read ANYTHING that shows they may have some bad employees, it pushes me away further and faster. Then I read a comment from you as well that questions them. That is EXACTLY what scares me.

I also understand where they are coming from, but there is a way to check documents and a way not to. Blacking out that data does not protect them, as they can not confirm who the girl is, or even if it's a real ID. So why ask for it? Maybe some guy does just want to beat off to them, anything is possible. After all, it was "Joe" from "support" who made the request. If you ask me, this sort of request should come from the TOP, not a low level guy with no background check.

shake

Epoch are really fair people. Maybe you could work something out with them like sensor the model home address on the ID if that is really your worry.

Since they are the payment processor they are partly responsible for the content - their ass would be on the line if they received complaints about a model age and didn't do anything about it.

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DWB

You are right again. He didn't even look into it, he just dismissed it right away. As all of us knows, shit happens in this business. ANYTHING is possible.

I'm actually shocked at how many people here just blindly trust people they don't know, with information that doesn't even belong to them.

AmeliaG

Actually, I think this does make your situation kind of different from the average one. On the one hand, I understand a compliance department doing a spot check for age and it would seem negligent for CCBill to roll with someone Epoch was concerned about, after such a big public thread. But I'm honestly stunned that the GF sites flourish and get standard processing because, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, they would surely fail such a spot check, so why hassle a legit producer instead?

On the other hand, I've sent my own ID to more than one billing company just to get set up and more than one affiliate program who claimed they needed it for 1099 and most of those companies have hit me up a second time for ID. Which means to me that none of them are all that careful with how they file and protect that information. I like Epoch, but there are definitely some other companies I wish I had not sent my info to because it does appear to have been misused.

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DWB

Sure, but think about what you said.

If I black EVERYTHING out but her birthday, how does that solve anything? They don't know her name, they can not confirm the ID is real, thus it protects nothing.

Since everyone wants to use the bartender analogy, lets say I did walk into the bar and I was asked my ID. I showed them my ID with EVERYTHING blacked out but my DOB, to the point they could not even tell what kind of ID it was or if it was even legit. Do you think they would serve me? Of course not.

If a cop pulls me over and asks to see my ID. I hand him my ID with all the important information blacked out, do you think he would accept it? Of course not.

An ID that can not be verified, should they need to verify it (and whats the use checking age if you don't verify it), is useless.

DWB

I produce DVDs for pro DVD companies. If they buy the scenes from me or if they distribute the movies for me, THEY get a copy of the 2257 docs. We do not give them to the stores that sell the movies, or the mail order catalog who sells the movies, or to our merchant account for when we sell them on our own. We list a custodian of records address and if someone wants to inspect those records, they can come to the address listed and inspect them, during normal business hours. This is the way is is supposed it be.

To be honest with you, I would send them to CCbill to one person and one person only, as I know someone there I trust enough to send them to. I don't know ANYONE at Epoch, thus the issue.

Where Epoch really fucked up was sending their request from "support" rather than someone higher up the food chain. If the mail came from someone there who I know is accountable and carries weight there, it maybe a different story. But DUDE from SUPPORT, ain't gonna fly.

Yea, that sucks. I can't tell you how many times companies like Epoch, CCbill, Epass, have said they didn't get the fax I sent them, though my fax says they got it. That is dangerous if it is sensitive data.

DWB

That is the point. A government agency CAN verify them. That's why 2257 was created. Not for processing companies, but for law enforcement to make an attempt to protect children.

That means, if you are going to request my IDs, THEN DO THE DUE DILIGENCE TO VERIFY THEY ARE REAL, or GFY. If you are not able to confirm the ID, then you should not be looking at them.

Not a difficult concept to grasp.

DWB

You flip flop a lot in this post. One line you say they can, the other you say they can not.

You need to go back and look into 2257 a little better. It was not made for them.

2257 is for law enforcement, not for anyone else.

No they don't.

2257 was not created for them. You need to go back and look that up. It is for law enforcement.

Exactly. See your post below.

And I'm glad the do check for the bad shit. And no they don't have the "legal right" to ask for this. They can just tell me to piss off.

Right on. I have NO problem dropping them.

On the flip side, they should not be able to view my IDs until they employee who is going to view them, gets a full background check, and I get a copy of it along with a copy of HIS ID.

My records are open for them if they want to get off their asses to go inspect them, so long as they bring law enforcement with them and do so during normal business hours. If they want them, go fucking get them.

DWB

Actually, it is. I am fucking them.

TheDoc

Do they verify everyone? How do they verify a person is real in another Country?

They just call up the lost Provence in Thailand and ask for id on a chick named Porn Wii? No wait... if the U.S. Gov did that to verify the age, couldn't your girls get into trouble, equally just as easy?

I also find it odd that if you visit us, they ask you if you have a criminal background rather than just running a check on he big hooked up International computer that magically links the entire world together.

And they are doing due diligence to verify they are real.. they don't actually have to see if they are real, legal age or not. Maybe they just want to see if you keep documents just like they make sure you have a 2257 notice on your page.

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Major (Tom)

Being that they aren't a government agency, a written affidavit of you swearing under the penalty of perjury that she is of age should do. I would imagine atleast.
Duke

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DWB

Here are the two girls in question, who "appear fairly young."

Both have had kids, and both are CLEARLY not underage.



So please, what is the point in this? Why does "Joe" from "Support" hit me up asking about the IDs of these two girls, when I have girls who look way younger than these two. It doesn't make sense.

So what if I black out the IDs, they can not even verify the IDs are real or who the model really is, so how does this protect Epoch?

DOES ANYONE HERE THINK THESE GIRLS LOOK UNDERAGE?

spazlabz

THOSE GIRLS!!??

you have GOT to be kidding me LOL

no they appear to be very legal


spaz

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MaDalton

do we know that? the only one that can tell is yourself. careful: i am not accusing you, i just say that no one can tell that but yourself. No one (also not me) is granted innocence based on a message board reputation. 99,9% on here don't know you personally, so 99,9% have no saying in this. Do i think you shoot underage porn? No. Do I have a problem if Epoch would like to check one of my girls? No, but i see your point about protecting your models. I don't have that problem over here.

you're right about that, but my guess is that it would not have been questioned any further. and you would have saved a lot of typing on GFY. And I would have contacted my sales rep first and asked what this is about. I have not dealt much with Epoch yet, but so far Frank Gannon was always helpful in straightening things out. And if you would have explained what the problem is, i am almost sure that a mutual solution would have been possible.

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DWB

Actually the FBI has a attache in just about every country, they can check on an ID with ease. I know this for a fact.

MaDalton

haha, well, after seeing this i'd say someone needs his eyes checked if he thinks those are underage - you're right about that

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DWB

You are 100% correct.

Actually, I will contact them but as I'm in Thailand and Thailand is not the place of my records, I have to wait for those records to be given to me. Then I can address this with Epoch. Until then, I just have a lot of hot air to blow.

But did you see the screen caps of the girls? Jeeze.

DWB

Yea man, now it may be coming clear. Nobody with good eyes would even question those girls. So when such a mail comes from "support" about models who are CLEARLY of age, I circle the wagons and go on the defensive. It just doesn't make sense.

DWB

Exactly. Makes sense now?