Barefootsies

a hundie DWB's

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Deej

God i love this thread!!!!

DWB you are right and i dont even have to tell you that!

Epoch yes you feel right, but DWB brought up a great point here that really should change your policies since you do porcess for the world and not just for the USA.

Safety of others comes before profit... bottom line. If you dont think so... Well then fuck you!

No one here in this argument so far as endured the detriment that DWB has in his career. I myself cannot even fathom the shit that DWB has encountered. From all that hes is most concerned for the safety and well being of his models which in the end are his main asset and all that truly matters. I commend that!

This guys is known as a pervert tranny fucker yet hes is probably the most respectable and loyal mother fucker here. Pure fucking irony!

i have never signed up to use Epoch but i would love to read the signing policies.

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TheDoc

The FBI does this because they have no power over your Company directly, that's why they inspect.

With 3rd party processors, they do have the power. It isn't your merchant account, they aren't even your members and really it isn't your money. Understand, they can do ANYTHING and ask ANYTHING they want, and you have no power to say no.

All it takes it someone to make a claim, and you will be forced to provide proof.

Compliance checks isn't just for VISA, it's for U.S. Laws as well.

And thank god they do... I would NEVER want to work with a 3rd party processor that didn't make sure every client was perfectly in check. It's not your money, just like it isn't mine, so you screwing with them, screws with me and everyone else too.

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DWB

Sure. I'm sure that very document would also stop a rouge employee from doing something inappropriate. I'm also sure it would also erase that date from the hard drive so it could not be found at a later date, when the time comes to upgrade their system. A Peice of paper is not going to stop a pervert.

You are also missing the other point, which is, why does Epoch have special privileges that are not even provided to the FBI or other law enforcement agencies? How can Epoch just shoot me an email and demand those IDs, when a government agency can not?

If WE have to abide by 2257, then so do they. I've said it over and over here, if they need them, grab the FBI and go see them, during normal business hours at the address listed. That's what the FBI would have to do, so that is what Epoch will have to do.

Of course, I've also said if Epoch wants to provide me with their employees IDs, the ones who will see these IDs, as well as sign a document stating they take full responsibility should anything happen to these models as a result of them having access to the IDs, then that is another option.

I have given them TWO solutions. Both of them are fair. They gave me one, to remove the content. Luckily for me, there are other billers in town, so I'm not going to jump through bullshit hoops to use Epoch when I can log into NATS and take them out of the cascade should that need to happen.

Deej

Everyone educated in this business knows that thai girls look young. I worked wth this thai girl damn near straight"off the boat" a few years back and i almost started hitting on her thinking she was 18 or 20, turns out she was 30 something almost 40. From then on I knew that thai girls (alot of all around asian girls) look young no matter what.



I feel DWB could be more diligent more giving up records to people hes fdoing business with but i also see exactly what DWBs point is... and to me it overcomes importance!

Hes potentially saving lives, reguardless of true outcome!

He is protecting not only his business but also his models no matter what the case may be.

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DWB

You're right. However, I have the power to turn them off in my cascade.

Then they need to get on the GF sites, because there are maybe 2 of them who are compliant.

If they are going to be checking IDs, then check ALL the fucking IDs, on every god damned site. Otherwise, they are wasting everyones times.

Deej

I think whats his point is that epoch is feeling above the law. Sure dwb could "comply" and just send the docs. Why shouldnt a processing company have to take the same route as the law if they so deem it necessary? why should a company have better advantages or easier avenues than the law?

If you dont want to save your profit margin with a legitimate process that the law has laid out then why should it be enforced without repercussion?

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Major (Tom)

I feel ya dwb. I don't like it neither.
I have faith in the people who process our cards, especially a company like epoch.
It's not some 3rd world gateway asking you for this info. I'm in no way disagreeing with you. I have only been asked once for an ID (not by epoch). I handed it over, but sanitized out all but name and age. This is where I feel that us as a business have to mutually trust each other. Yea, it's the jizz bizz and there are scumbags entering at an alarming rate. But there are still some good people left. In that I have faith.
Cheers bro,
Duke

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DWB

Naw man, one of them is Cuban, the other Colombian.

TheDoc

Because the processing site doesn't own the domain and they aren't producing the content at any level.

So legally, they are just covering their asses. If something ever went down, and they got pulled in, they could show proof they tried. They don't have to prove the age, but they would have to prove they attempted to filter it out.

... and when Visa starts telling them to check, Epoch won't be years behind.

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TheDoc

I don't disagree with ya man.. more than a few sites that EVERY processor could easily clear out... hell, before they even asked for a document. And clearly, some of those GF sites, NEED to be checked, every document.

Just don't forget, CCBill can ask and I'm sure has at least once (I know they won't allow newsgroups, and I was told because of age issues), even the merchant bank can ask. If you're doing business in Porn in America, be ready to provide proof at some point to someone, or lose money.

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andrej_NDC

Actually, its HIS money, epoch is just processing the money, they don't own it. Upon your logic people working at walmart at cash counters can take all the money they process during the day, its their money, right? No, they just get their share, they don't own shit.

DWB

That's BS. They don't need to cover their ass any more than hosting companies do.

If Visa wants to crack the whip and everyone has to show every ID for every site, and laws are changed, then I will live by that. But in the meantime while Epoch plays cowboy, they can do it with someone else. They can follow the 2257 rules just like everyone else has to.

Deej

Oh i hate you now, you threw me under the bus

I guess my assumptions got the best of me...

so disreguard my thai girls statement

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DWB

You nailed it there. Proof to SOMEONE would be legal authorities. Not hosting companies, not 3rd party companies, and not someone who you lease a CMS or cascading back end from.

TheDoc

If I send a C&D to a hosting company, they will make you show proof. Or I will own that hosting company.

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Deej

every document? you mean... one whatsoever? the majority of "gf" sotes out there have non at all!

we all know it...
10% of the "gf" sites out there have an inkling of proof and about 2% of those are actually legit.

I agree with DWB... before checking his cubans and cambodians you should all chekc the ALL TO WELL KNOWN fake ass ripped off amateur GF sites that we all know have no prrof at all to process. If you say a policy is the rteason then please enforce it to the fullest instead of selective processing!

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DWB

Well... you don't work with me. I can afford to toss you under the bus.

Yea, some of the Thai girls look very young. They are Asian and small. But I used to work a lot in Latin America and that is where these models are from. Cuba and Colombia.

Just to put into perspective, a Cuban girl goes to jail for THREE MONTHS if the police catch her just TALKING to a tourist, unless she is a licensed guide. Imagine what they would do with her for shooting porn with a tourist!?!?

DWB

No, they will have me show proof that I own the content. Not the models 2257 documents. That proves nothing, other than I have a copy of her documents and ID.

Deej

A loophole which should be(but isnt always) both ways...

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DWB

Right. Do full inspections or don't do any at all. However, they still need to inspect them in the proper manner, the same as a government agency has to.

Deej

Seriously? months in jail for talking to a tourist?

seriously... if you american processing companies want to continually process for countries other than where you are based, i advise you and implore you to involve your company and its policies with every country that you process. If not, dont expect people to give up everything for your profit margin...

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Barefootsies

You are missing my point.

If you want to do business with EPOCH, or anyone, you comply to their terms. Doing business with that business, and their contract and terms of service supersede the laws.

Same as a mainstream webhost does not allow adult sites, and will kill your account. Adult sites are not illegal in the U.S., or most of the world, but their TOS supersede them. Same as PayPal will freeze your account, or seize your funds for processing adult virtual transactions. They are not illegal, per se, but they are against their TOS and will close your account.

The point is. If you want to do business with them, and you agree to their T.O.S., you follow their rules period. It is not a 2257 issue, as being broadly painted. It is a compliance issue.

EPOCH supposedly get a complaint. They want to verify, as any processor would, that the models in the complaint are legal before their merchant bank or VISA get involved and start fining them, or drop them.

EPOCH has to think about more than just one DWB, and about all their clients they process for when it comes to compliance, and their merchant bank.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Sly

If your host receives complaints or has their doubts about legality of any content on their network, they will require you to prove that the content is legal. If you don't, you can either remove the content or they will boot you.

DWB

Yup, 3 months. The don't fuck around down there. Another reason I'm not giving her ID to anyone unless they are fully trusted and part of a government agency.

I've seen it happen several times. And if the girl has been arrested before for the same crime, she goes to jail for an even longer time.

Barefootsies

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

TheDoc

The C&D was just an example, but if it's an age issue. they will ask for proof or tell you go host with someone else. Some hosts don't like questionable content and once they get complaints, they will ask you. "Exactly" like a spam complaint, you show proof of the opt-in, so they can show the upstream provider.. If someone complains, you will be asked.

This is compliance issue though..


It's not loop hole, any U.S. Company 'allowing' illegal activity is illegal.

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Barefootsies

Ah ha! I get it now.

Hey officer, why did you stop ME for going 65 in a 55 when that guy next to me was clearly going 70 or faster?

Sorry chief. Still speeding and breaking the law. It has nothing to do with unfair treatment, or selective enforcement. You just pulled over first, and the other dude didn't.

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Enough Said.

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DWB

The coin has two sides. If they want MY business, even though it is small, they have to work within my terms and privacy policy as well.

Also, I don't have the contract in front of me. It was signed a long time ago. I'm curious to see if they even state they have the right to view the IDs or not. Even if it does state they can do that, Epoch is not the only game in town so I don't have to follow their rules.

Last, if they want to see IDs and documents, I say again... WHY ARE THEY ABOVE THE FBI OR OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES? Why can they fire off an email when the FBI has to go to your place of business during normal business hours, to see the same thing?

DWB

A hosting company is not going to ask for an ID. If they did, I would drop them too. There is NO shortage of GOOD hosting companies around.

They want to make sure the content is yours. I've done this dance before. Most of my content is on DVD as well, so it's not hard to prove that I own it.

Barefootsies

As I explained in my example with both hosting companies, and PayPal. It is not a 2257 issue. It is a compliance issue. The water is just being muddied.

But you're right. You can take your ball and go home, or down the road to the next person who WILL process for you, not ask you any questions, and appreciate your firm butt cheeks.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

DWB

You are right. But I would tell them the same thing, to visit my office during normal business hours, with someone from law enforcement, and they can see all the IDs they want. I'm not saying people can't see them, I'm saying there is a way to see them, the same way the FBI has to, or we won't do business together.

Sly

LOL. If a hosting company thinks you are using pictures of underage girls, they will either ask you to remove the contents or to show the proof that it is not under age.

And yes, you are free to move to any hosting company you want.

You may have done the ownership dance, obviously you haven't done the legality dance. Which is good for you. But it does happen. If you think hosting companies are going to let illegal content or questionable content run rampant on their servers you are nuts.

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DWB

What I'm saying is, I don't think Epoch should have the right to view them, HOWEVER, if they must, I have told them how they must do it. That way is the same as the FBI or the local police has to. If they don't follow the same rules that everyone else has to follow, then yea, I take my ball and bounce, and they lose no sleep over it as I'm small potatoes when it comes to my own pay sites.

Barefootsies

..and what would you tell your web host, as in Sly's example?

Say the same 'complaint' went to your web host. You would take the same stance? Telling MOJO, PHAT, or whomever to jump on a place and fly to Thailand with Federali's?

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

TheDoc

Let me put ya on the spot...

As an Affiliate, I want you to prove the girl is legal age. Nothing fancy, just proof so I can make sure I won't get into trouble. Or maybe my hosting company asked me..

Now the 2257 law pretty much clearly explains this, how to sanitize the records, and so on. It's not a privacy issue by law..

What now?

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DWB

You are correct, but out of the 1000s of girls I've shot, I've never ONCE, had anyone tell me any of them look underage until today, and its on a site that is 2 years old, with content that is at least 4 years old.

I don't push the envelope in terms of girls who look too young, that's why I don't have these problems.

DWB

First of all, I've been with my main host for many, many years and have a great relationship. I would give the OWNER a copy of the IDs, and that's it. Nobody else. If it was just some other host, I would tell them that they can view the IDs the same as the FBI has to. If they can't do that, I would take my business to another host.

TheDoc

The FBI inspects to make sure, the age, and OTHER 2257 Recorded Keeping things are taken care of, that can ONLY be checked in person. It's not like you could actually fax up all your records to the FBI... and Epoch is only asking for 2, not all.


We had been processing with epoch/ccbill for like 5 years, with the exact same members area for the entire time, NO complaints. We had a FORUM, no content.. it was TEXT "Stories." <--- Really, it was stories.

I had to pull it down or lose my processing with both. Questionable content.. not illegal, questionable.

No proof, no nothing... pull it down or that's it.

So we checked with our own merchant account... didn't make a difference, issuing bank didn't allow it either. Again, the TEXT was legal.

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DWB

It's not a privacy issue for AMERICAN law. I don't work in the USA.

The issue is, her name. I'm not giving out her name. If you would be happy with just her DOB and a photo, and OK with me blacking out even the issuing country, then I may be OK with that IF I knew you on some level, other than some dude who sends sales to my site.

Though, if you have to see her name and the country the ID is issued from, unless I know you on a personal level, my answer is no.

Barefootsies

Fair enough...

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Deej

Did I mention that I love this thread?

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After Shock Media

You are entering into a voluntary contract and if you can not complete your part it is your job not to enter into it. I do have a lot of Canadian models on my site and I can and will give out ID's. Privacy laws are simple to deal with. In your model release you can have the model sign off on the privacy issues. And yes anyone can voluntarily give up their right to privacy - see rules of entering many contests, if you win.

Some may use a 3rd party like netbilling to handle scrubbing and such. Others may add in ccbill and epoch to spread out the risks/charge backs/etc.

1. CCbill has asked for ID's in the very recent past. I know as I supplied them one. I would also guess if you did not supply the ID they would make you take down the model in question. Even Rand from Epoch said that, which I think is stupid as hell. I think they should suspend the account if they could not supply them. Perhaps give sites a couple chances just in case something did get lost, but if it happened each time a request came in, then suspend them until they could provide it.

You mention them closing up. OK sure and why dont you just get an agreement that it will be destroyed after viewing. I can understand your concern. Perhaps set up a time and day with Rand at epoch and do a live webcam chat, show the id on screen. Sure ya he could screen cap it but be realistic. Fuck I do not know I see your side too and I just feel your a bit more paranoid than me.

I know when CCbill asked for ours. We sent them the 3 they asked for. Had all identifiable info blocked out besides DOB and her picture.


At the same damn time I am sure that someone could totally alter an ID and send it in to any company and they would not even notice. It is not like they are holding the real ID. Hate to even admit this but I did it once when a model of mine who I knew for a fact was old enough was waiting for her ID to come in the mail (lost it) and wanted to do some live cam work for quick cash.

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DWB

The FBI has already gone through parts of the DVD industry, where I also work. They would only ask for a movie here or there, not all of them. Sometimes just a scene. It's the same thing.

That sucks. Sorry to hear that.

Hey, if the rules change and I can't play by them, I will move on to something else. If nobody will process for me, it may be a blessing in disguise and I would do something else. I'm not attached to anything, other than my own personal beliefs and morals, which can change at any time, with or without notice. lol Well, I have a lamp that I'm pretty fond of, but this business, I could probably do without if that day comes.

However, If better safety measures were put into place and processors and billers worked with law enforcement to check a models age, I would be OK with that. I trust the law when it comes to this matter, I don't trust the people in the porn industry.

andrej_NDC

But this is a different story...if the model is stupid enough to sign off the privacy thing, she has to deal with the consequences.

DWB

Again, I just don't see why either CCbill or Epoch is above the law. Why can't they get it like everyone else has to? This part I just can't be OK with.

Barefootsies

Again, you are muddying the waters.

If your agreement with EPOCH/CCBill/ToeHee Billing tells you that you need to comply with THEIR terms of service you signed back when you joined them. That supersedes any other 'legalities' you want to lay claim to.

I signed away those rights when you joined, typically. It is not a 2257 issue. It is a T.O.S. issue of compliance.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

DWB

Exactly. All it takes is one scumbag, and lets be honest, just because the company is legit, it does not mean they do not have at least one scum bag there.

Dirty D

Epoch's compliance department was out of control when I tried to add them to the mix.

They weren't happy with dozens of little nit picking things... on sites that have been active for years!
It finally became too much of a hassle and we did not add them.

We now deal with 7 different billing companies, Epoch will never be one of them.

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TheDoc

And risk... Epoch takes on the risk of 1000's of Websites and being so, so do all of us.

Personally, I HATE it when any of them ask for something... But, at the end of the day, I have to respect it for the safety of my business, and yours.

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