Libertine

There are lots of talented designers in this industry, yet it's one of the worst-paying industries out there.

So why aren't you guys trying to branch out to more lucrative industries?

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Loch

Its only the worst paying as i have yet to find one that delivers on time!
The rest suffer from that as clients assume they will be late therefor not willing to pay top dollar

Then the once good designers started taking on more work to pay the bills and "yes you guessed it" they started delivering late as well.

You are seeing this with even the big reputable shops today!
And for us paying top dollar it STINKS.

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JD

It's pretty damn hard to get people to pay decent prices that's for sure. Mainstream, the clients usually know less so they'll pay more BUT that comes at a cost. They're for the most part a support nightmare whereas adult webmasters usually know wtf they're doing with html/setup/etc or have a grunt that does it for them.

JD

btw Loch, you should give me a shot sometime ;) I'm pretty spot on with deadlines/time frames/etc

Basic_man

That's why I do some local mainstream as well. Very lucrative

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Twig

I'm a poser, not a designer.

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Sly

I can confirm that JD is great with deadlines. Deej is good at deadlines as well.

Barefootsies

A-fucking-men!!

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MetaMan

The word "designer" is thrown out to much these days, any idiot with photoshop thinks he is a designer.

real designers never have trouble finding good paying work.

Zuzana Designs

I think mainstream clients are definitely willing to pay more for their work because they expect to get more out of their business than adult clients. A large majority of adult clients open several tubes, tgps, blogs, and much more and hope to make money on one of them along the way. Therefore, they don’t want to spend very much money on any one design. Mainstream clients usually focus on only one business so they don’t mind putting the money into it. I think a high majority of the designers here all have a separate mainstream business or at least mainstream clients.

What I've found with a lot of people is they always want to talk you down no matter what your prices are in adult, unlike mainstream work where I can give them a price and they just pay. I think because they really don't know any better. I also get lots of clients that don't mind paying higher prices, so that's nice as well. My repeat clients don't try and haggle me with lower prices for the most part.

I pride myself in working to meet all my deadlines. I have a client management system that works great in assuring all my clients of a start date and preview date. The final product can vary because of the changes to the design. Keeping your clients happy is what it's all about and if you can't do that you can't have high design prices.

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gimme-website

Parts of your folio arnt rendering in chrome.

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Serge Litehead

we haven't updated our site in a long time - simply no time, branching out is next on our todo list, whenever that will happen who knows..


please excuse me if i get offended when someone approaches me wanting top of the line design for an average price or below average. it doesn't work this way. cheap money most of time get you cheap service/product and vise versa with credible companies.

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okny

I think it would take longer for a designer to build a name in mainstream then it is in adult but i do agree that mainstream has no limit and i've personally seen design projects over 50k+ just for a site design.

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Agent 488

mainstream is a scam. people bitch about adult, but most online mainstream biz seems like it's run by a million little bernie madoffs - and those are the honest ones.

Libertine

It takes longer, yeah. But 50k+ really is only the start of it, especially once you get into government projects.

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JimmiDean

JD has delivered everything we asked for on time on budget and usually early.

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Ron Bennett

Many good reasons mentioned...

Another one is, many who operate adult sites see web layout / graphics as "disposable" - use it for a little while, then buy a new one, and so on. Mainstream sites tend to seek web layouts / graphics that will be utilized for a long time.

Ron

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Twig

I've never used JD, but always heard good things.

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Deej

Thanks Sly. I only get backed up when i start juggling people. Usually its planned out well, but one client throwing off a content package or just not being around and it can start spiraling.

I do my best to stand by my word. Everyone is normally compensated anyway if there is an issue.

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Loch

If you accept the price and deadlines you should meet them PERIOD!!!
Dont over promise.

If someone is not willing to pay the money you need dont take on the business, again something designers have yet to master

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Libertine

A support nightmare? Are you kidding me?

A support "nightmare" is one of the best things that can happen to you. First, you get paid for creating the design. Then, you get paid for implementing it. After that, you get paid for training the staff on maintaining it. And finally, if any problems arise that are not your fault, you bill per hour.

Admittedly, you'll have to do more than whip up a quick front page in PS. But if you know what you're doing, it's definitely worth it.

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Most don't deliver on time, because Adult webmasters are way to fucking cheap to pay the price it's worth, therefore to keep business coming they take lower prices for their designs, then they have to double their clients just to maintain a good stream of money to make it worthwhile, but then it gets overwhelming and they start slacking because they realize it's really not worth it...

psili

Unless one is struggling hard to maintain paying bills, a support nightmare isn't worth it. Thus the key word "nightmare".

http://www.andyrutledge.com/calculating-hours.php

I'm not a designer, but the above article was helpful to try and calculate for development time pending the type of client. Maybe "designers" and "developers" aren't taking appropriate CYA approaches to projects, in regard to your question, and thus feel lame trying to branch out.

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Loch

Again, not the clients problem!

Terms accepted is terms accepted!

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Not really the clients fault, more the industries...

You jack your prices to above average industry prices and nobody is gonna buy... So in a way, it is the clients fault.

Sly

Not really. When you first start you need to do the grunt work to earn yourself a solid reputation. After you have that reputation of providing a quality product for a fair price and keeping our promises, you become in demand. As you become in demand, you can increase your rates. It will take awhile to develop that reputation, but that's how it works. You can't just pop in and expect everything to be hunky-dory.

I'm sure that Loch's prices today and over the years are quite a bit different from when he first started out.

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Loch

If you are good and have proven it i know a LOT of people that would pay designers 100 bucks pr hour and more.

Most designers are basement operations though and just jump from one client to the next.
Late on deadlines, disapears for days/weeks, House burned down, grandma got sick, Computer crashed, you name it and i have heard the excuse lol

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Loch

Contact me at Casper AT HDpornstreams.com please

I have one upcoming design project left for this year that i have yet to place in the hands of a designer, the one we use for everything else is a bit too busy with our other stuff at the moment.

I cant promise anything though, i have been burned by designers so many times its not even funny

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JD

right yeah I do the per hour stuff after but imo I'd rather NOT have to do the hourly stuff and just do the per project work. I've had numerous clients get rather pissy when I say that I'm going to have to charge them per hour to continue explaining things or making changes AFTER they've said it's good.

Sounds good. I'll shoot off an email now. What I've done for people that got "burned" in the past is nothing is due until screenshots of the psd are shown. Then it's 50% down 50% on completion.

gimme-website

Why do good designers miss deadlines??

Because designing anything is a creative process. And anytime you put a time limit on something creative you are setting yourself up to fail. It will be a compramise at best... at worst it will be pig awful.

Good design doesnt just happen. It evolves.

I mean seriously.. what do you people want us to do??

Example;
Say i'm working on your design. Ive just spent the day clicking, but it just doesnt look right. Im not happy with it.

Do i carry on and deliver a product that neither of us are happy with.
Or do I take it on the chin... lose time/money... and start again?

I say that a good designer who is proud of their work starts again.

And any designer who says they get it right first time everytime is lying.. or they knock out shit.

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Serge Litehead

we don't accept anything.. you come with request for help, we see if that's something we can help with, tell how much it's gonna cost - time and money wise. and do it if you accept it. everyone is happy. we do everything according to agreed terms but we also let our clients know that sometimes things may take longer than expected. - that is a normal scenario. bad when someone approaches trying to get everything for less - if you want something from us that will cost us more - we obviously don't accept it.

from posts above your major factor in dealing with designers is Deadline.
my company focuses to provide clients with Quality. people who come to us expect it and sometimes can wait for it - whether there's waiting line or design is not there yet.
thing that we don't do - we don't bullshit around.

-=-=-
back to thread subject.
design business like anything else has its own niches. everyone finds or keep looking to find its own niche. when they do - things can be very lucrative no mater in what industry you are. as long as you deliver what is expected you will be fine.

like JD or Meta said.. if you're good.. i mean if you're a PRO - you don't need look for jobs - they will be finding you.

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okny

I agree you with you on some levels, I worked for one of the biggest design companies in this industry not going to mention the name but sometimes designers get to a point where they feel that their work is so good it doesn't matter of the deadline which is wrong. The fact is time is money and sometimes works needs to be done by a certain date otherwise it's useless so in that sense the designer should look over and see whether he or she can even finish the project before jumping head first.

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gimme-website

I also agee with what you wrote onky.

Agreed.. no designer is so good that they can be a prima dona.
The happy medium lies somewhere in the middle.

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Barefootsies

Wrong.

If designers (or coders) want to command a premium pay. You provide a premium service.

Period.

I'll give you an example. I prefer working with konrad/borked/JamesK for my coding projects. I have used many many people prior who dropped the ball, blew deadlines by a mile, granny died 10 times, the coder-designer classic excuses, or just vanished. Whatever.

Since worked with these guys, they have not let me down (this includes Prez, SPANNOW, or FletchXXX as well for design btw on the designers of choice ).

That said, these guys are not the cheapest. They are some of the most expensive in the adult market place. But worth every fucking cent!!! So you are going to PAY for good code. You are going to PAY for timely attention, support, and accounting of time. You are going to PAY for a superior coder-designer.

The up side to this is, when something comes up, or a project misses a deadline. I am informed prior to it happening so I can plan accordingly. They identify problems they come across, and fix them when needed. They provide accurate estimates of times on projects. They know better, and admit to, not take on something they can't commit to 100%. Which actually may cost them some business, but keeps their clients happy.

I will gladly wait for 2 weeks to get borked/konrad/Prez/regulars to work on something because I know it will be done, and done right the first time. These guys can knock out shit in an afternoon that most GFY coders or designers take a week or more to do (depending on project). Which my dudes, I know then they get to it... it will be done right. I know I will be kept in the loop along the way, and the code is excellent and stable.

Sure. Design is a creative process. I am not happy with every design I get, but I am very visual, and creative myself. I try and work up a very detailed idea or concept of what I want. Including color patterns, example sites, how I want things to work, and so forth to designers so they get it very close the first draft. Then we fix, or tweak it from there.

The point being, people will pay good money for superior service. But if you are like 95% of the jokers in adult who think it's ok to blow deadlines by a mile, not be upfront on your time commitments, and workload (so you can get more business) and drop the ball... no one is going to pay you a premium for that shit.

Most people in adult, or looking for work, deserve the low wages they are getting.

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gimme-website

"Since worked with these guys, they have not let me down"
SO they have NEVER let you down...

"The up side to this is, when something comes up, or a project misses a deadline"
But they do miss deadlines>>>??

HUH??

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Barefootsies

It's called communication. Something most, in my experience, do not use.

Shit happens. A kid gets sick. Wife crashes car. Life happens.

You apparently are trying to break this down to a simple, 'they miss deadlines, so they forever suck', mantra. That was not my point. I am talking about patterns in behavior. Especially when you use a coder/designer more than one time.

When a deadline has been missed, it was either we found some errors in the code, I did not like a design or it was missing something, or some very understandable issue came up ONCE. They (being he guys previously mentioned, and I work with regularly) informed me of it immediately, and then worked double time to resolve/finish the work.

I have worked with coders, and designers, recommended on this forum for years who simply disappear. They will accept every job posted they can get their hands on, then play the shell-squeaky wheel game. Disappearing for days/weeks on end. Shifting work around based on who is complaining the loudest. Sitting around playing XBOX all day and blowing off your shit. Wanting advances on work not done, especially after missing deadlines for no good reason.

What I am saying is, I am trying to paint a broad picture for your nig that encompasses some 100+ working experiences with people from this board, the lancer sites, Indians, Paki's, highly recommended while paying kudos to the guys I work with now that are worth every cent, and should be paid a premium.

Most do not provide premium service or quality, and deserve the pay they get.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

gimme-website

Agreed.

And my point is EVERY designer will at some point miss a deadline.
Even the good ones.

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Barefootsies

Shit happens.

The vast majority of designers/coders do not provide a quality service, or support. Rightfully so, they do not deserve quality pay.

Quality designers/coders get repeat business and clients. So they are not always fishing for new business. As someone else has mentioned previously. I know myself, and I am sure others, will wait a week or two for a quality coder/designer to do the work over just picking up some joker.

What they may not cost you in money, they WILL cost you in time and aggrevation. Guaran-fucking-teed!

Just like trying to hire a shade tree mechanic, or doing it yourself. It tends to take longer, and may not be done as well, and cost you more time then sending it to the dealer or shop down the road.

I simply send my shit to the professionals and have them get my truck done in a day, the right way, the first time, versus waiting a month for some shade tree fuck.

That same example translates to most skilled trades.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

gimme-website

I agree with you on all points

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okny

If you agree on all points then this thread is dead, you have too disagree on something

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Barefootsies

Not all designers/coders are unprofessional ambulance chasers.

There are many who do good work for others, and there are the guys I work with regularly that do excellent work for me. Even though they cost more than others, they are professionals, and I like the way they conduct business.

They demand a premium and are worth it. They make new projects, and my life, so much easier.

When I hand it off, I know it is in good hands, and will be done timely. If there is a problem, I know I will get notification, and it will be fixed. I will not have to chase them down to get some un-professional excuse as to why it was not done. I prefer working with the same people, and once you find those who are professionals. They typically stay busy.

That said, there is the flip side of the low ballers most complain about who never want to pay for anything. I'll give you a quick example on that side of the coin...

Current project in sig. I have CMS/script already done, customized, designer in place, and all you need to be up and running in 1-2 weeks (depending on workload).

A decent number of those who contact me think price is too much for CMS/script or whatever. Claim they will just go have their own built, get their own designer, cheaper content whatever.

Ok. So let's look at this rationally.

I have everything in place to have you a fully functioning website you can drive away in 2 weeks time, including CSS/html, installations, integration, including payment API and any tweaks and mods, including content for a set price.

You are a cheapskate and so you want to cut corners and do the following....

1. Try and find a quality coder who will build you a CMS/script to do the same thing.
2 .Try and find a quality designer who can do what you need in design.
3. Try and get comparable content at the price point I can offer.
4. Hopefully your designer can code css/html because not all can.
5. The CMS/script development time can take months! Not only to get initial writing out of what you need, and want. How you want it to work, look, and so on. Then work out the kinks and testing, plus fixes and final mods before skinning, and then whatever....

The point being, best case scenario is 2-3+ months costing you even more in time, and eventually money, trying to nickel and dime to get it cheaper. In the end, you will probably have an inferior product depending on where you go. Where you can get a total solution for a few bucks more.

The point being, you could have been making money for those 2-3 months instead of trying to reinvent the wheel to save a few bucks. Plus that is assuming your coder and designer you find, and pick even FINISH the product to begin with.

It is a lot more complex than most people think when it comes to building a good website on a solid platform, and when it comes to a flagship type of site, or one you just want running stable. It is worth the added cost to pay for the better designer and coders.

Unfortunately, their are few professionals available, and most that are that caliber, have steady work and clients. Most do not think of it, but the time lost trying to be cheap is a MAJOR FUCKING PISSER and in the end will cost you more in time/money/aggravation then it's worth.

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Enough Said.

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SayWhut

This is so true:-

Barefootsies

Hilarious!

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

RenegadeCash Mark

lmao the animation is funny as hell.

I find that good designers who know what the fuck they are doing usually get snapped up pretty fast for a decent slary paying job rather than making money freelance.

Sure they can make more money freelance, but when you put the time the spend with retards and people bitching about prices it's much easier to work a 9-5 or whatever.

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Barefootsies

True dat.

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"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Killswitch - BANNED FOR LIFE

I'd also like to say, I'm not a designer, I'm just going by what my designer friends have told me, haha... Though I do, as a programmer, run into those el-cheapo bastards who want me to recode Facebook for $150.

EscortBiz

mainstream clients are way slower moving then adult industry people, so if you try to get a mainstream client he thinks and thinks more and talks and talks more and needs to change things and ask for agreements and nda's and junk and bullshit

adult is yes or no here is the money on to the next thing

I have that are in mainstream 100% they just move so damn slow

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Libertine

The basic idea behind a support nightmare is that a certain client keeps needing more and more time. If you're committed to a single set price, that indeed becomes a nightmare.

On the other hand, when you do projects for larger companies, NGOs, the government, etc., you typically have a contract that specifies exactly what you're required to deliver.

Plan well, and you'll also have a maintenance contract that includes a set number of hours for support and upgrades, with additional billing for additional support and development.

And that's where the real money is. Not in single orders, but in long-term contracts.

Most designers who just sell single designs are extremely vulnerable. A busy month can mean they have to turn down work, and a slow month means their income grinds to a halt. It's hard to plan ahead that way - you'll never know how many orders you'll be getting in the next half year.

If you add service, maintenance, training and support agreements to the mix, you can build a constant stream of income. That makes it far easier to plan ahead and grow your business.

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Barefootsies

Well said Libertine.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"