Judge Halts Mandatory Flu Vaccines for Health Care Workers

[Fletch XXX]

?These are not libertarians, they are not lefties, they are not right-wing lunatics,? Mr. Kindlon said of his clients in a phone interview on Friday. ?They are health care professionals, and they think the vaccination is not going to be good for them. They have no confidence that either the seasonal flu vaccine or H1N1 vaccine is going to do any good for them.?

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...re-workers/?hp

Thoughts?

[GatorB]

They are retarded and I hope the get the flu and feel like shit.

[uno]

Originally Posted by GatorB

They are retarded and I hope the get the flu and feel like shit.

Same, but I'm still for them having the choice to be morons.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by uno

Same, but I'm still for them having the choice to be morons.

If they were taking care of a already sick relative would you feel that way?

[uno]

Originally Posted by GatorB

If they were taking care of a already sick relative would you feel that way?

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. I haven't had my coffee yet.

[After Shock Media]

It has nothing to do with them. It has everything to do with they are dealing with people that are high risk.

Why not have claustrophobic nurses not wear masks or quarantine wardrobes. How about we allow people who faint at the sight of blood to work surgery or collecting blood.
May as well not require them to stay home if they are sick, they need the money after all.

[TheDoc]

The vaccine is the dead flu virus, just because you get the vaccine doesn't mean you won't get the flu, you can get the flu several times a year... and just because you have the vaccine doesn't mean you won't or can't transmit the flu.

That's a smart judge..

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

The vaccine is the dead flu virus, just because you get the vaccine doesn't mean you won't get the flu, you can get the flu several times a year... and just because you have the vaccine doesn't mean you won't or can't transmit the flu.

That's a smart judge..

Yes I keep wondering why vaccine people keep saying if you have been vaccinated you can't still pass on the virus lol.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Yes I keep wondering why vaccine people keep saying if you have been vaccinated you can't still pass on the virus lol.

Because you are far less likely to get infected if you come into contact with the virus when you have been vaccinated against it.

[Joshua G]

did they even bother testing the vaccine? when health care workers don't want to take it, that sends a message.
Local news in boston discussed a 24 year old girl that took a seasonal flu shot august 23rd...she can't talk anymore.
i have no confidence in a drug created on the fly...

[Elli]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

did they even bother testing the vaccine? when health care workers don't want to take it, that sends a message.
Local news in boston discussed a 24 year old girl that took a seasonal flu shot august 23rd...she can't talk anymore.
i have no confidence in a drug created on the fly...

Exactly. Where are the years of testing? or are we just treating the general population as guinea pigs and in 15 years we'll say "well, we shouldn't have, but we were under tremendous pressure to do SOMETHING."

[epitome]

That's fine. When one of their patients gets sicker and/or dies, the families of the sick/dead patient should be able to sue that healthcare worker for recklessness endangerment and a bunch of other shit. Oh, and since it was a personal decision of the healthcare worker, their malpractice insurance should not cover it. Personal liability all of the way.

Having to get the shot is an occupational hazard. You know that shit going in...

That'd be like an ironworker refusing to tie off when 500 feet in the air; not allowed.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

did they even bother testing the vaccine? when health care workers don't want to take it, that sends a message.
Local news in boston discussed a 24 year old girl that took a seasonal flu shot august 23rd...she can't talk anymore.
i have no confidence in a drug created on the fly...

It's not actually a "drug created on the fly".

Creating different vaccines fairly often works in roughly the same way. When you're merely talking about different strains of a specific subtype of virus, the process is almost exactly the same.

There are a few possible risks with vaccines: a virus that has not been inactivated, adjuvants (agents to help provoke a reaction from your immune system) that turn out to be toxic, and contamination.

Now, the first risk is a rather small one. If something would go wrong there, it would be detected very quickly and the effect would essentially be that you immediately got the disease you were being vaccinated against - the reason it would be detected so quickly.

The third risk is a small one, too. It's essentially the same kind of risk you run when getting IV fluid, or even when you something. Obviously, the standards vaccines are held against are quite high, so you'd typically run a bigger risk getting a hot dog from a corner stand or taking some vitamin pills with breakfast.

Adjuvants, however, could be somewhat of an issue.

They essentially serve to help provoke a reaction by your immune system, helping your body in recognizing the deactivated virus as a potential threat which should be remembered. More practically speaking, they usually induce a tiny local inflammation, which triggers an immune response in the place where the inactived virus is also present, causing your body to basically associate the virus with disease.

Obviously, then, they can't be entirely harmless - after all, don't they trigger a response from your immune system?

The good news is that they've been researched quite well during the past few decades, potentially dangerous ones are no longer being used, and the ones that actually are used with flu vaccines (where it's already known what kinds are most likely to be useful - something that varies per type of virus) have been well-tested.

Moreover, they're not the scary, dangerous materials the alarmists make them out to be. For example, what's often used are aluminum salts, which are also present in your deodorant, your food, etc. The immune reaction being provoked with the vaccines is comparable to that which you would see in a woman who cut herself a little while shaving her armpit and then applied deodorant - a small bit of redness and swelling.

There are some more advanced adjuvants, such as certain enzymes found in specific viruses, but those are equally safe, and have been tested extremely well before being allowed on the market.

Basically, if on some given day you cut yourself shaving, apply deodorant and aftershave to your body, eat a few meals, come near one or two sneezing people and take some vitamin pills, you're exposing yourself to the same type of "risks" that taking a vaccine exposes you to - larger ones, actually, because the sneezing people have a realistic chance of infecting you with something.

Also, keep in mind that with large groups of people, it's inevitable that some things happen - with or without vaccination. Vaccinate a million people, and you will inevitably see a number of them suffer from unexplained or rare diseases in the months that follow. Just because with any given group of such a size, there will be a few people developing unexplained or rare diseases in the timespan of a few months no matter what you do.

Hell, among some ethnic groups sudden death during sleep occurs about 40 times per 100k young, healthy population per year (google "sudden unexplained death syndrome"). In a group of a million, that's 33 deaths per month, or slightly over 1 per day - which gives a rather large chance that someone would suddenly die the day after a vaccination if 1 million were vaccinated, despite the vaccination having absolutely nothing to do with it. And that's just one syndrome

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Libertine

It's not actually a "drug created on the fly".

Since H1N1 has only been known of for a few months I don't know how you can suggest otherwise.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

did they even bother testing the vaccine? when health care workers don't want to take it, that sends a message.
Local news in boston discussed a 24 year old girl that took a seasonal flu shot august 23rd...she can't talk anymore.
i have no confidence in a drug created on the fly...

Originally Posted by Elli

Exactly. Where are the years of testing? or are we just treating the general population as guinea pigs and in 15 years we'll say "well, we shouldn't have, but we were under tremendous pressure to do SOMETHING."

Depends are we talking about the regular flu vaccine or H1N1 vaccine, which by the way is next to impossible to get even if you want it.

The standard flu shot is safe to say has had time to be studied. Works pretty damn much the same way as polio vaccine, small pox vaccine, and even chicken pox and measles vaccines.

Then again parents are trying to prevent the polio, and small pox ones now too. Pretty much on 100% junk science and surprise, surprise we are seeing those pop back up on the map. Terrific reason why celebrities should watch what fucking things they get behind and start yapping their mouths about on a national stage. All for freedom of speech - issue with spreading false/BS info that can cause other people harm. Slippery slope, so naturally I defend their ability to say that shit. General people need to at least get an idea of how smart or educated someone is. Just because they can look good on some show or movie and remember lines - does not make them equally or often more qualified to spread info on such matters over actual scientists.

Hell I can probably just bring up MSG right now and watch as the majority of anti vaccine people will also jump on the anti MSG issue too - despite all evidence and even blind studies by those who supposedly have such issues.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by baddog

Since H1N1 has only been known of for a few months I don't know how you can suggest otherwise.

The two sentences below the one you quoted explain the statement.

Describing flu vaccines as "drugs created on the fly" implies that there's something new or untested about them. But that isn't the case. Flu vaccines are made with existing adjuvants, based on an existing principle, using existing techniques.

It's a bit like putting new tire chains on your car when there's heavy snowfall. You didn't just create a new type of vehicle on the fly, you merely adapted an existing vehicle to new conditions.

It would be different if they used a new class of adjuvants, or used specific characteristic molecular structures of a virus that hadn't been used for that purpose before.

[Relentless]

He didn't rule that they can't get the vaccine..

He ruled that the government and their employer can't FORCE them to have a virus (even a dead one) injected into their body.

BIG DIFFERENCE.


Think it through. If an employer is allowed to make an injection mandatory, what comes next? Maybe they require employees to take antibuse so they can't drink alcohol, or they require them to be on a particular medication for any other reason.

The decision is about maintaining a person's right to control what does or does no go into their body. Simple and correct decision.

[uno]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Depends are we talking about the regular flu vaccine or H1N1 vaccine, which by the way is next to impossible to get even if you want it.

The standard flu shot is safe to say has had time to be studied. Works pretty damn much the same way as polio vaccine, small pox vaccine, and even chicken pox and measles vaccines.

Then again parents are trying to prevent the polio, and small pox ones now too. Pretty much on 100% junk science and surprise, surprise we are seeing those pop back up on the map. Terrific reason why celebrities should watch what fucking things they get behind and start yapping their mouths about on a national stage. All for freedom of speech - issue with spreading false/BS info that can cause other people harm. Slippery slope, so naturally I defend their ability to say that shit. General people need to at least get an idea of how smart or educated someone is. Just because they can look good on some show or movie and remember lines - does not make them equally or often more qualified to spread info on such matters over actual scientists.

Hell I can probably just bring up MSG right now and watch as the majority of anti vaccine people will also jump on the anti MSG issue too - despite all evidence and even blind studies by those who supposedly have such issues.

Watching Bill Maher last week I had the same feeling. He's totally against flu vaccines. He had Bill Frist on who was talking about the importance of vaccines. Maher pretty much refused to listen to the science and common sense of it, much as he does with food and other drugs. This flu vaccine paranoia is just crazy.

[Babaganoosh]

Originally Posted by baddog

Since H1N1 has only been known of for a few months I don't know how you can suggest otherwise.

A doctor from the CDC was on NPR the other day and said the H1N1 vaccine was created in exactly the same way as the standard flu vaccine that was available in World War 2. The H1N1 vaccine was simple to create. The only difference is the dead or inactive virus the serum contains.

[Fletch XXX]

Bill Frist family owns hostpitals and is heavily involved in medicine/hosppital business, i woudnt believe anything he has to say regarding medicine since he makes living from it. LOL conflict of interest if there was ever one.

[uno]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

Bill Frist family owns hostpitals and is heavily involved in medicine/hosppital business, i woudnt believe anything he has to say regarding medicine since he makes living from it. LOL conflict of interest if there was ever one.

He was still talking common sense regardless of how many kittens he killed.

[Babaganoosh]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

Bill Frist family owns hostpitals and is heavily involved in medicine/hosppital business, i woudnt believe anything he has to say regarding medicine since he makes living from it. LOL conflict of interest if there was ever one.

Doctors all make a living from medicine you fucking tool.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by Relentless

He didn't rule that they can't get the vaccine..

He ruled that the government and their employer can't FORCE them to have a virus (even a dead one) injected into their body.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

Think it through. If an employer is allowed to make an injection mandatory, what comes next? Maybe they require employees to take antibuse so they can't drink alcohol, or they require them to be on a particular medication for any other reason.

The decision is about maintaining a person's right to control what does or does no go into their body. Simple and correct decision.

Think it through. Medical workers come into contact with patients who have weakened immune systems all the time. An outbreak of the flu in a hospital can easily kill a bunch of patients. If you work in a hospital, preventing your patients from dying should be your primary goal.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Libertine

Think it through. Medical workers come into contact with patients who have weakened immune systems all the time. An outbreak of the flu in a hospital can easily kill a bunch of patients. If you work in a hospital, preventing your patients from dying should be your primary goal.

Maybe they should force every patient to have the vaccine when they come through the door then? After all when they enter the hospital they could be infecting other patients. In order to have the right to be treated at a hospital it should be a mandatory vaccine injection. What do you think comrade?

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Maybe they should force every patient to have the vaccine when they come through the door then? After all when they enter the hospital they could be infecting other patients. In order to have the right to be treated at a hospital it should be a mandatory vaccine injection. What do you think comrade?

Patients don't have much of a choice about needing to be taken into the hospital, and don't come into contact with lots of other patients. Medical workers, on the other hand, are free to choose jobs, and come into contact with tons of patients.

If you're going to risk killing leukemia kid, aids guy and scid chick, you probably should go looking for a different job

Aside from that, here's a little something to keep in mind: just about every med student gets mandatory vaccinations (hep B). As it happens, most med students have at least one parent who's a physician. So do you honestly believe that the medical community is trying to kill off its own children with dangerous, untested vaccines?

[BlackCrayon]

according to a recent study 1 in 4 people said if they or a family member had h1n1 they would still go into work...

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Libertine

Patients don't have much of a choice about needing to be taken into the hospital, and don't come into contact with lots of other patients. Medical workers, on the other hand, are free to choose jobs, and come into contact with tons of patients.

If you're going to risk killing leukemia kid, aids guy and scid chick, you probably should go looking for a different job

Aside from that, here's a little something to keep in mind: just about every med student gets mandatory vaccinations (hep B). As it happens, most med students have at least one parent who's a physician. So do you honestly believe that the medical community is trying to kill off its own children with dangerous, untested vaccines?

Right so when flu patient A. is in the waiting room with weak immune patient B. then what? Do you think they quarantine every patient from one another? Do you think each medical professional changes clothes and showers from going from patient A. to patient B. ? lolz Its the flu its spread through the air, through contact etc. A medical professional does not have to actually have the virus in order to pass it from one patient to another.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Right so when flu patient A. is in the waiting room with weak immune patient B. then what? Do you think they quarantine every patient from one another? Do you think each medical professional changes clothes and showers from going from patient A. to patient B. ? lolz Its the flu its spread through the air, through contact etc. A medical professional does not have to actually have the virus in order to pass it from one patient to another.

Jesus. You didn't even pass high school biology, did you?

The lifespan of viruses outside of living bodies is rather limited. Moreover, without cells to infect, the virus won't replicate.

By contrast, during an infection the body serves as a virus-replicating factory of sorts, copying the virus over and over again. Coughs and sneezes send droplets of mucus containing the virus flying around the room, providing a constant source of potential infections.

An infected person has a chance of transmitting the virus that is literally thousands of times higher than the chance of simply carrying the virus from an infected patient to an uninfected one.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by Libertine

Think it through. Medical workers come into contact with patients who have weakened immune systems all the time. An outbreak of the flu in a hospital can easily kill a bunch of patients. If you work in a hospital, preventing your patients from dying should be your primary goal.

In that case, anyone with a sniffle should be sent home immediately but they are not...

Every medical care worker should be HIV tested and fired if they have AIDS but they are not....

Every medical worker should be forced to get a full medical exam once per week but they are not....

Your logic is flawed. Sick people work in hospitals every day. Sick people provide excellent medical care in some cases, and healthy people provide horrible medical care in other cases. Why don't we require ambulance drivers and EMTs to get injected? How about Taxi Cab drivers - They come in contact with more people every day than any hospital staffer... are are far less sanitary.

Why don't we require airline flight attendants to get injected? They are on a fucking plane with you for 6+ hours breathing RECIRCULATED AIR that you are all sharing and they are traveling all over the country/world each week where diseases are much more likely to be passed around.

Think...

[digifan]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

It has nothing to do with them. It has everything to do with they are dealing with people that are high risk.

Why not have claustrophobic nurses not wear masks or quarantine wardrobes. How about we allow people who faint at the sight of blood to work surgery or collecting blood.
May as well not require them to stay home if they are sick, they need the money after all.

I agree..

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by Relentless

In that case, anyone with a sniffle should be sent home immediately but they are not...

At my faculty and the hospital, people are strongly urged to stay at home if they suspect there's a chance they might have the flu.

Originally Posted by Relentless

Every medical care worker should be HIV tested and fired if they have AIDS but they are not....

Tests for HIV, Hep B, etc are mandatory. If you test positive, you're banned from a wide range of jobs because of the risk of infecting patients. Likewise if Hep B vaccination doesn't provide sufficient immunization. Unsatisfactory titer? You'll never be a surgeon.

Originally Posted by Relentless

Every medical worker should be forced to get a full medical exam once per week but they are not....

The costs of that would be prohibitive, and possible gains would be small. Regular checkups, however, actually are required.

Originally Posted by Relentless

Your logic is flawed. Sick people work in hospitals every day. Sick people provide excellent medical care in some cases, and healthy people provide horrible medical care in other cases. Why don't we require ambulance drivers and EMTs to get injected? How about Taxi Cab drivers - They come in contact with more people every day than any hospital staffer... are are far less sanitary.

Your knowledge is lacking.

Minimizing the amount of infections among hospital workers minimizes risk of outbreaks. Providing excellent care doesn't matter if you infect a kid who has leukemia with the flu, since the infection has a good chance of killing the kid.

As for cab drivers - they don't typically spend their days among immunocompromised patients, nor do they perform medical procedures which bring them into close physical contact with their clients.

Originally Posted by Relentless

Why don't we require airline flight attendants to get injected? They are on a fucking plane with you for 6+ hours breathing RECIRCULATED AIR that you are all sharing and they are traveling all over the country/world each week where diseases are much more likely to be passed around.

Think...

How many airplane passengers are undergoing chemo? How many aiplane passengers have large open wounds from surgery they just had? How many flight attendants change bandages on their passengers' bodies? How many flight attendants inspect their passengers' various orifices? Etc.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Libertine

Jesus. You didn't even pass high school biology, did you?

The lifespan of viruses outside of living bodies is rather limited. Moreover, without cells to infect, the virus won't replicate.

By contrast, during an infection the body serves as a virus-replicating factory of sorts, copying the virus over and over again. Coughs and sneezes send droplets of mucus containing the virus flying around the room, providing a constant source of potential infections.

An infected person has a chance of transmitting the virus that is literally thousands of times higher than the chance of simply carrying the virus from an infected patient to an uninfected one.

Yes you only catch the flu by being sneezed, coughed, or breathed on..... Can't touch it by say picking up a pen to fill out a form in an ER or doctors office after someone with the virus. Dies instantly right...

I mean a person could never catch it by say touching a door handle on an exam room touched by someone infected then touching a patient right? After all hospitals and doctors offices are 100% sanitized at all times lol..

But shit if it is spread almost 100% by breathing, coughing, or sneezing hospital workers wearing masks should stop that then right?

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Yes you only catch the flu by being sneezed, coughed, or breathed on..... Can't touch it by say picking up a pen to fill out a form in an ER or doctors office after someone with the virus. Dies instantly right...

I mean a person could never catch it by say touching a door handle on an exam room touched by someone infected then touching a patient right? After all hospitals and doctors offices are 100% sanitized at all times lol..

But shit if it is spread almost 100% by breathing, coughing, or sneezing hospital workers wearing masks should stop that then right?

How exactly do you think the virus gets to hands, objects, etc?

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Libertine

How exactly do you think the virus gets to hands, objects, etc?

Oh ya thats right, the virus can only be spread from one person to the next. Not from one infected person, to a non infected person or object to someone else.. nah.. Thats why the cdc says don't bother washing common surfaces or your hands to stop the spread..

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Oh ya thats right, the virus can only be spread from one person to the next. Not from one infected person, to a non infected person or object to someone else.. nah.. Thats why the cdc says don't bother washing common surfaces or your hands to stop the spread..

Again: how exactly do you think the virus gets to hands, objects, etc?

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Libertine

Again: how exactly do you think the virus gets to hands, objects, etc?

Oh are you saying that people who have the swine flu don't goto the doctors office, ER, or hospital? lol That makes sense. The only way the virus could end up at the hospital would be via the people that work there.....

[Relentless]

Libertine... what country are you in?

In the US no run of the mill medical care worker has mandatory HIV testing. Urging people with the sniffles to stay home is NOT the same as telling them they are fired if they do not. The idea that the government or an employer should be allowed to REQUIRE you to be injected with anything is simply 'batshit-crazy.'

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Oh are you saying that people who have the swine flu don't goto the doctors office, ER, or hospital? lol That makes sense. The only way the virus could end up at the hospital would be via the people that work there.....

Are you illiterate? I'm asking a very simple, basic question.

Again: how exactly do you think the virus gets to hands, objects, etc?

Try answering it.

[woj]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Libertine... what country are you in?

In the US no run of the mill medical care worker has mandatory HIV testing. Urging people with the sniffles to stay home is NOT the same as telling them they are fired if they do not. The idea that the government or an employer should be allowed to REQUIRE you to be injected with anything is simply 'batshit-crazy.'

I'm pretty sure kids are required to have certain vaccinations already... do you think that is batshit-crazy too? If not, why would it be so crazy to have those working in the medical industry to have certain vaccinations/tests done as well?

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Libertine

Are you illiterate? I'm asking a very simple, basic question.

Again: how exactly do you think the virus gets to hands, objects, etc?

Try answering it.

If you can't find the answer in my last response I can't help you. lol

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by woj

I'm pretty sure kids are required to have certain vaccinations already... do you think that is batshit-crazy too? If not, why would it be so crazy to have those working in the medical industry to have certain vaccinations/tests done as well?

I understand the process of vaccination and I am for it. I am against the idea that an EMPLOYER can require an employee to be injected with something or lose their job. That's a very different standard. This is not the government mandating an injection. This is a private hospital owned and operated by the private sector saying 'You let us inject you with something or we fire you.'

They are using a brand new untested vaccine with no track history. They want to inject it into pregnant women. At one time in the 50s and 60s they released a drug called Thalidomide which they believed was safe but they failed to have a long enough track record to know what impact it would have on an embryo. oops...

Show me a study that tells us what happens to the fetus of a pregnant woman injected with the new vaccine for H1N1. You can't, because none exists. Yet you think a pregnant nurse should lose her job if she tells her EMPLOYER that she doesn't want to be injected with an untested vaccine?

Seeing the difference?

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by Relentless

Libertine... what country are you in?

In the US no run of the mill medical care worker has mandatory HIV testing. Urging people with the sniffles to stay home is NOT the same as telling them they are fired if they do not. The idea that the government or an employer should be allowed to REQUIRE you to be injected with anything is simply 'batshit-crazy.'

I'm in the Netherlands, but mandatory vaccination and testing before being allowed to perform exposure-prone procedures is pretty common around the world, as far as I know.

It only makes sense, to be honest - you don't want a patient to be infected with an incurable illness if a clumsy surgeon nicks his own hand during an invasive procedure.

[Relentless]

This is a picture of a typical thalidomide child:



That's what can happen when you give a pregnant woman a medication that you have failed to test sufficiently.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

If you can't find the answer in my last response I can't help you. lol

I'll take that to mean that no, you have no idea whatsoever of how it works.

So I'll go ahead and explain it.

When an infected person sneezes, coughs into his hand, wipes his nose, etc., he contaminates things for the period of time the virus can stay alive outside of the human body. Now, this can cause him to directly infect someone else, or - what you are focusing on - cause an indirect infection.

While indirect infections are indeed a risk, they're limited by the fact that outside of a living body, the virus won't stay alive for all that long. Moreover, because the virus does not have any cells to use to replicate itself, no new viral particles are being created.

So if someone infected with the flu goes all around a hospital, sneezing and coughing everyhwhere, if he fails to infect anyone it won't be long before the virus has died off again and everything is safe once more.

However, if he does infect some people, they will also start spreading the virus around.

And that's where vaccinations come in. By vaccinating health care workers, you greatly increase chances that the virus from one patient will die off before it gets the chance to infect someone else. And keep in mind that the flu virus, for example, only stays alive for a few minutes on human skin.

It's the same concept as herd immunity: the lower the chances of a person infecting someone else, the lower the chances of a full-blown outbreak. Because outbreaks depend on each case of infection causing one or more additional cases of infection before ending.

Now, if health care workers simply get vaccinated and follow proper protocol, chances of the infection being spread are quite small. Sure, a few infected patients might infect a few others, but there's a decent chance that there's enough distance in space and time between contact with infected individuals and susceptible individuals to prevent infections from spreading out.

On the other hand, without vaccinations, health care workers themselves can actually become sources of infection rather than just uninfected short-term carriers. You don't need to be an immunologist to see just how much more likely and how much faster that makes the spread of infections.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by Relentless

This is a picture of a typical thalidomide child:
[picture]

That's what can happen when you give a pregnant woman a medication that you have failed to test sufficiently.

And that's why a vaccine with, say, radically new and different adjuvants would have to be tested extensively before being used.

That's the whole point here, which has been described rather thoroughly in this thread: this H1N1 vaccine is not something radically new. It uses well-tested adjuvants, and the only really new part is the strain of influenza that's present in an attenuated form.

But if the attenuated form of the virus would have serious long term side effects, the same would go for the actual virus a thousandfold. Not to mention the fact that those side effects would also have showed up using attenuated forms of similar strains over the past decades.

[Agent 488]

logic and science doesn't work with these idiots. why bother.

just because some apes managed to type a couple keys on a computer doesn't make them intelligent.

Originally Posted by Libertine

I'll take that to mean that no, you have no idea whatsoever of how it works.

So I'll go ahead and explain it.

When an infected person sneezes, coughs into his hand, wipes his nose, etc., he contaminates things for the period of time the virus can stay alive outside of the human body. Now, this can cause him to directly infect someone else, or - what you are focusing on - cause an indirect infection.

While indirect infections are indeed a risk, they're limited by the fact that outside of a living body, the virus won't stay alive for all that long. Moreover, because the virus does not have any cells to use to replicate itself, no new viral particles are being created.

So if someone infected with the flu goes all around a hospital, sneezing and coughing everyhwhere, if he fails to infect anyone it won't be long before the virus has died off again and everything is safe once more.

However, if he does infect some people, they will also start spreading the virus around.

And that's where vaccinations come in. By vaccinating health care workers, you greatly increase chances that the virus from one patient will die off before it gets the chance to infect someone else. And keep in mind that the flu virus, for example, only stays alive for a few minutes on human skin.

It's the same concept as herd immunity: the lower the chances of a person infecting someone else, the lower the chances of a full-blown outbreak. Because outbreaks depend on each case of infection causing one or more additional cases of infection before ending.

Now, if health care workers simply get vaccinated and follow proper protocol, chances of the infection being spread are quite small. Sure, a few infected patients might infect a few others, but there's a decent chance that there's enough distance in space and time between contact with infected individuals and susceptible individuals to prevent infections from spreading out.

On the other hand, without vaccinations, health care workers themselves can actually become sources of infection rather than just uninfected short-term carriers. You don't need to be an immunologist to see just how much more likely and how much faster that makes the spread of infections.

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by Libertine

And that's why a vaccine with, say, radically new and different adjuvants would have to be tested extensively before being used. That's the whole point here, which has been described rather thoroughly in this thread: this H1N1 vaccine is not something radically new. It uses well-tested adjuvants, and the only really new part is the strain of influenza that's present in an attenuated form. But if the attenuated form of the virus would have serious long term side effects, the same would go for the actual virus a thousandfold. Not to mention the fact that those side effects would also have showed up using attenuated forms of similar strains over the past decades.

And if YOU believe that, then you should get injected with it....
but if a pregnant woman doesn't believe that would be best for her embryo, she should not be fired for saying no. Pretty simple...

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Libertine

I'll take that to mean that no, you have no idea whatsoever of how it works.

So I'll go ahead and explain it.

When an infected person sneezes, coughs into his hand, wipes his nose, etc., he contaminates things for the period of time the virus can stay alive outside of the human body. Now, this can cause him to directly infect someone else, or - what you are focusing on - cause an indirect infection.

While indirect infections are indeed a risk, they're limited by the fact that outside of a living body, the virus won't stay alive for all that long. Moreover, because the virus does not have any cells to use to replicate itself, no new viral particles are being created.

So if someone infected with the flu goes all around a hospital, sneezing and coughing everyhwhere, if he fails to infect anyone it won't be long before the virus has died off again and everything is safe once more.

However, if he does infect some people, they will also start spreading the virus around.

And that's where vaccinations come in. By vaccinating health care workers, you greatly increase chances that the virus from one patient will die off before it gets the chance to infect someone else. And keep in mind that the flu virus, for example, only stays alive for a few minutes on human skin.

It's the same concept as herd immunity: the lower the chances of a person infecting someone else, the lower the chances of a full-blown outbreak. Because outbreaks depend on each case of infection causing one or more additional cases of infection before ending.

Now, if health care workers simply get vaccinated and follow proper protocol, chances of the infection being spread are quite small. Sure, a few infected patients might infect a few others, but there's a decent chance that there's enough distance in space and time between contact with infected individuals and susceptible individuals to prevent infections from spreading out.

On the other hand, without vaccinations, health care workers themselves can actually become sources of infection rather than just uninfected short-term carriers. You don't need to be an immunologist to see just how much more likely and how much faster that makes the spread of infections.

Yup...

How long can the H1N1 virus live on environmental surfaces?
The influenza virus can live for 2-8 hours on surfaces such as books and doorknobs. Viruses can be spread when a person touches a contaminated surface like a desk, for example, and then touches their own eyes, mouth or nose before washing their hands. Therefore the best way to protect yourself is to wash your hands frequently, and to keep your hands away from your eyes, mouth and nose.

http://www.des.umd.edu/biosafety/rest/h1n1.html#seven

How long can the virus live on a countertop or other surface?
The virus can live on hard surfaces for at least several hours and possibly more than a day. For that reason, it is important that you wash your hands after coughing or sneezing to avoid passing on the virus.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/H1N1/h1n1_faq.htm

How long can a virus like novel H1N1 live on a surface outside its host?

The H1N1 virus is new. Research is being conducted to better understand its characteristics. Studies have shown that flu viruses can survive on hard surfaces and can infect a person for up to 2 to 8 hours after being left on items like cafeteria tables, doorknobs, and desks. Frequent handwashing will help you reduce the chance of getting contamination from these common surfaces.

Flu viruses may be spread when a person touches droplets left by coughs and sneezes on hard surfaces (such as desks or door knobs) or objects (such as keyboards or pens) and then touches his or her mouth or nose. But, routine cleaning will kill these germs.

Until a vaccine is available, the best way to help fight novel H1N1 influenza (flu) is to cover your nose and mouth with a tissue when you cough or sneeze, then throw the tissue away. Wash your hands often with soap and water, especially after coughing or sneezing. Stay home if you're sick, and limit contact with others to keep from infecting them.

http://answers.flu.gov/questions/3943




Thank God it dies nearly instantly when outside of a living body.. phew. A mere 8 hours.

Im sure its unlikely that more than 1 person would touch say a doorknob, or a chair, etc, etc in a 2 to 8 hour span.. Especially in a public health facility like say an emergency room, or a doctors office. They usually only get like 2 people there a day...

Good thing people don't do things like read magazines or stuff like that while waiting to be examined... phew..

What medical school do you currently attend? Im glad we have brilliant medical students such as you that can give sound advice to the members of gfy like .

Originally Posted by Libertine

While indirect infections are indeed a risk, they're limited by the fact that outside of a living body, the virus won't stay alive for all that long. Moreover, because the virus does not have any cells to use to replicate itself, no new viral particles are being created.

Sound sound advice....

[Agent 488]

if your immune system is so strong you should be able to shrug off any negative side effects of the vaccination.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Yup...

http://www.des.umd.edu/biosafety/rest/h1n1.html#seven

http://www.doh.wa.gov/H1N1/h1n1_faq.htm

http://answers.flu.gov/questions/3943

Thank God it dies nearly instantly when outside of a living body.. phew. A mere 8 hours.

Im sure its unlikely that more than 1 person would touch say a doorknob, or a chair, etc, etc in a 2 to 8 hour span.. Especially in a public health facility like say an emergency room, or a doctors office. They usually only get like 2 people there a day...

Good thing people don't do things like read magazines or stuff like that while waiting to be examined... phew..

What medical school do you currently attend? Im glad we have brilliant medical students such as you that can give sound advice to the members of gfy like .

Sound sound advice....

Now go google how long it stays alive on human skin

(hint: it's rather shorter)