Affiliates beware, another non paying program - HowIGotRich - Page 25 - GoFuckYourself.com

Juicy D. Links · 12-07-2009, 08:13 PM

what going on here any poon pics?

marketsmart · 12-07-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

Thanks a lot, but no this is not related.

If you look through my posting history you would probably notice I don't post to get fans or friends but to state my opinion when I feel I got something worthy to say.

I consider D a good friend and also have no grudge again you, misunderstandings can happen for tons of reasons and hope the 2 of you work it out.

Great! Maybe you and D can go jack off at the movies...

seriously, you should have just stayed out of the thread..

now that the relationship is pretty clear between you and jenni... both your posts are lame...

Deej · 12-07-2009, 08:25 PM

Due, would you pay shoehorn if you were in DirtyD's position...

yes or no?

Due · 12-07-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart

put it in your terms and its not an issue.... Why cant people comprehend this..

Also promotion via keyword hijacking adware does not appear to be in the TOS.

Would you have looked at it different if that is how it was done ?

At the same time please keep in mind that adware is not actual illegal software but is also operating in the grey area as it's usually designed to take advantage of those from who you are superior (in other words, the stupid surfers)

If you deal with the law then you have to be very specific if you start specifying certain things. In this case it seems to be neither allowed nor disallowed.

AaronM · 12-07-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart

Great! Maybe you and D can go jack off at the movies...

seriously, you should have just stayed out of the thread..

now that the relationship is pretty clear between you and jenni... both your posts are lame...

Agreed.

p.s. See sig.

AaronM · 12-07-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

If you deal with the law then you have to be very specific if you start specifying certain things. In this case it seems to be neither allowed nor disallowed.

Specifically speaking:

Dirty D made a decision to not pay an affiliate but continued to accept the affiliates purchased traffic.

That's stealing.....Specifically speaking.

letitride · 12-07-2009, 08:38 PM

Bump for Shoehorn. Bump for Justice.

Deej · 12-07-2009, 08:44 PM

mispost...

Mutt · 12-07-2009, 08:47 PM

any non-shady program in this position would have used this thread/drama to make themselves look good - they'd have made good on the money they owe Shoehorn without agreeing with him. everybody would have clapped and commended DirtyD for doing the right thing.

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 12-07-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juicy D. Links

what going on here any poon pics?

Shoehorn wants his money and Dirty D is on vacation...

Oh, and here's a poon pic:

ADG

marketsmart · 12-07-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

Also promotion via keyword hijacking adware does not appear to be in the TOS.

Would you have looked at it different if that is how it was done ?

At the same time please keep in mind that adware is not actual illegal software but is also operating in the grey area as it's usually designed to take advantage of those from who you are superior (in other words, the stupid surfers)

If you deal with the law then you have to be very specific if you start specifying certain things. In this case it seems to be neither allowed nor disallowed.

i hear your point. what people have to understand is that adult was built on a foundation of a "free for all". this industry has grown past that which is why people with no business background are having a tough time surviving. brick and mortar companies learned a long time ago that when it comes to business, contracts rule..

any judge will tell you that ignorance is no excuse when it comes to law..

the issue here, imho, goes to the core of contractual law. if you run a business, then you need to run your company as a business.

i deal with a lot of mainstream affiliate programs and they are all very clear when it comes to their terms and their clients terms.

i dont have a single personal issue here with d. what i do have an issue with is that shoehorn acted within d's tos (which doesnt really exist).

in a court of law, this is a cut and dry case...

Minte · 12-07-2009, 08:49 PM

This is going to be the most expensive $350.00 in the history of the adult internet.

Should've paid the man his money.

Deej · 12-07-2009, 08:54 PM

So who is going to design your show floor t shirts?

Sly · 12-07-2009, 08:57 PM

I have a feeling this thread just got more life... 10 pages worth.

marketsmart · 12-07-2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

This is going to be the most expensive $350.00 in the history of the adult internet.

Should've paid the man his money.

FAKE NIC....

(at least that what's dirty d says about anyone that doesnt take his side)

fmltube · 12-07-2009, 09:03 PM

I am not sure if the Playhouse Theater constitutes out of the country but judging by the girl in the picture, she does look like an ugly fucking foreigner.

Shoehorn! · 12-07-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronM

Specifically speaking:

Dirty D made a decision to not pay an affiliate but continued to accept the affiliates purchased traffic.

That's stealing.....Specifically speaking.

Exactly, that is the real issue here.

Due · 12-07-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart

Great! Maybe you and D can go jack off at the movies...

seriously, you should have just stayed out of the thread..

now that the relationship is pretty clear between you and jenni... both your posts are lame...

It's funny that my opinion is interesting now that you are aware of my relationship to Jenni.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

Due, would you pay shoehorn if you were in DirtyD's position...

yes or no?

I would base my choice if he made an effort or not to solve it.
I probably would have paid him and moved on.
Do I think he deserved it ? Probably not.
Again, it's all a question of his attitude towards me.

Varius · 12-07-2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

Also promotion via keyword hijacking adware does not appear to be in the TOS.

Would you have looked at it different if that is how it was done ?

At the same time please keep in mind that adware is not actual illegal software but is also operating in the grey area as it's usually designed to take advantage of those from who you are superior (in other words, the stupid surfers)

If you deal with the law then you have to be very specific if you start specifying certain things. In this case it seems to be neither allowed nor disallowed.

If any promotional tactic is not illegal and not specified as not welcome in the program's terms, then yes - sales generated are to be paid out. In your example, if the adware isn't illegal, he should be paid (though obviously posting a thread about that situation would likely garner him a lot less support).

Shoehorn! · 12-07-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

I would base my choice if he made an effort or not to solve it.
I probably would have paid him and moved on.
Do I think he deserved it ? Probably not.
Again, it's all a question of his attitude towards me.

So someones attitude towards you determines if you pay them the money you owe them or not? I am glad I deleted that email from you that you sent me a couple weeks ago about using your billing.

And once again for the record, I tried to "solve" this with him over a period of two weeks.

Due · 12-07-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart

i hear your point. what people have to understand is that adult was built on a foundation of a "free for all". this industry has grown past that which is why people with no business background are having a tough time surviving. brick and mortar companies learned a long time ago that when it comes to business, contracts rule..

any judge will tell you that ignorance is no excuse when it comes to law..

the issue here, imho, goes to the core of contractual law. if you run a business, then you need to run your company as a business.

i deal with a lot of mainstream affiliate programs and they are all very clear when it comes to their terms and their clients terms.

i dont have a single personal issue here with d. what i do have an issue with is that shoehorn acted within d's tos (which doesnt really exist).

in a court of law, this is a cut and dry case...

There is absolutely nothing that is a cut and dry case when speaking the law. Words like intend, effort or best effort, knowingly makes a world of difference.
Especially dealing within areas where it is questionable if it can be defined as cybersquating or not.
Most companies is very strict about their contracts but very often they are not worth the piece of paper they are written on.

We have ourself had to write off 6 digits sums in the past due to word games in contracts. A contract/tos give you something to challenge, it doesn't protect you

Due · 12-07-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoehorn!

So someones attitude towards you determines if you pay them the money you owe them or not? I am glad I deleted that email from you that you sent me a couple weeks ago about using your billing.

And once again for the record, I tried to "solve" this with him over a period of two weeks.

Actually my terms is quiet clear and I guarantee payments till termination of the service, regardless if I receive settlements or not from our carriers and contractual partners.

Deej · 12-07-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

It's funny that my opinion is interesting now that you are aware of my relationship to Jenni.

I would base my choice if he made an effort or not to solve it.
I probably would have paid him and moved on.
Do I think he deserved it ? Probably not.
Again, it's all a question of his attitude towards me.

I get the feeling youre doing your best to answer this without flat out saying yes you would pay him to save face with your friend...

So assume you are still in DirtyD's shoes... or a couple days ago rather when this thread was posted. Seems shoehorns emails all seemed professional and willing to cut it out, just wanting his money earned, especially since it was accepted before then not accepted and payments denied without notice later.

so here 'you' are with finding this thread... are you saying even though it wasnt in your TOs that you would not pay your affiliate and move on?

You wouldnt pay him if he got a little pissy beforehand? Youre saying you would base your choice to pay him on emotions between one another and not was legally binding?

There is one simple answer here and some people seem to want to fight that...

xxweekxx · 12-07-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minte

This is going to be the most expensive $350.00 in the history of the adult internet.

Should've paid the man his money.

sssh you are a fake nick.. what do you know noob?

and yes dirty d this will cost u $x,xxx or even $xx,xxx in lost sales.. dumb fuck..

Shoehorn! · 12-07-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

You wouldnt pay him if he got a little pissy beforehand? Youre saying you would base your choice to pay him emotions between one another and not was legally binding?

Just so you know, all my emails were professional. I tried to explain to him what I was doing and tried working with him to get my money, but he refused.

beerptrol · 12-07-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juicy D. Links

what going on here any poon pics?

No but here's a poon video

marketsmart · 12-07-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

There is absolutely nothing that is a cut and dry case when speaking the law. Words like intend, effort or best effort, knowingly makes a world of difference.
Especially dealing within areas where it is questionable if it can be defined as cybersquating or not.
Most companies is very strict about their contracts but very often they are not worth the piece of paper they are written on.

We have ourself had to write off 6 digits sums in the past due to word games in contracts. A contract/tos give you something to challenge, it doesn't protect you

thats why lawyers have insurance and thats why one should use them..

if you lost a case in court due to the wrong interpretation by your lawyer(s) then you can sue your lawyer..

i would be interested in hearing more about your case where you had to pay 6 figures..

did your lawyer suck or was their lawyer that much better?

or did you make the mistake of relying on people with no legal training to interpret the contract?

Deej · 12-07-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoehorn!

Just so you know, all my emails were professional. I tried to explain to him what I was doing and tried working with him to get my money, but he refused.

I figured that... that specific part was hypothetical...

marketsmart · 12-07-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

It's funny that my opinion is interesting now that you are aware of my relationship to Jenni.

because its a clear case of conflict of interest...

come on bro... its human nature to stand by the ones we love and choose sides based on feelings..

i wont fault you for that... i will fault you (as a successful business person) for not knowing when to sit on the sidelines..

if your girl wants to support this shitbag then fine, but support her at home not on the boards..

letitride · 12-07-2009, 09:50 PM

Agreed. Support her all you want on your dime. Not mine. Sit on the sidelines and watch because your views are subjective. Bottom line is shoe was fucked over and wasn't paid for the joins he WORKED HIS ASS OFF to send over. The TOS were not clear. You and your old lady should play with each other on your own time. THIS IS OUR TIME.

Due · 12-07-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart

thats why lawyers have insurance and thats why one should use them..

if you lost a case in court due to the wrong interpretation by your lawyer(s) then you can sue your lawyer..

i would be interested in hearing more about your case where you had to pay 6 figures..

did your lawyer suck or was their lawyer that much better?

or did you make the mistake of relying on people with no legal training to interpret the contract?

We paid 6 figures to our clients which I do not regret, we did not collect the same payments from our contractual partners that had the direct contract with the telecoms via interconnect agreements.
We could not collect as our contract said we would be paid when they got paid and passed on the payments. If they did not get paid there would not have to legally pay but only make an effort to collect the payment, not collect based on their best effort.
Our contract was vague, although it was about 20 pages, it's a lesson learned and mistake that will not repeat.

Personally I think a few people got some fat bonuses to pull that stunt but can't prove it and we did spend a lot of money trying to challenge it and ultimately decided to put it to rest.
It taught us a very important lesson, I would never put a client in the same position if I had previously told them I would pay. I pay. (granted you do not engage in criminal activity)

marketsmart · 12-07-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

We paid 6 figures to our clients which I do not regret, we did not collect the same payments from our contractual partners that had the direct contract with the telecoms via interconnect agreements.
We could not collect as our contract said we would be paid when they got paid and passed on the payments. If they did not get paid there would not have to legally pay but only make an effort to collect the payment, not collect based on their best effort.
Our contract was vague, although it was about 20 pages, it's a lesson learned and mistake that will not repeat.

Personally I think a few people got some fat bonuses to pull that stunt but can't prove it and we did spend a lot of money trying to challenge it and ultimately decided to put it to rest.
It taught us a very important lesson, I would never put a client in the same position if I had previously told them I would pay. I pay. (granted you do not engage in criminal activity)

correct me if i am wrong, but it sounds like you did the right thing based on your beliefs and paid the clients even though you were at fault for not having a clear and concise contract?

so, what would have happened if you would have not paid your client? it sounds like you would have had a valid reason to not pay your client? your client would have understood?

if so, then why did you pay the client?

kush · 12-07-2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

I have a feeling this thread just got more life... 10 pages worth.

I was thinking the same thing!

Agent 488 · 12-07-2009, 10:05 PM

i was thinking i shouldn't put my hand in dirty d's popcorn bucket.

Due · 12-07-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart

correct me if i am wrong, but it sounds like you did the right thing based on your beliefs and paid the clients even though you were at fault for not having a clear and concise contract?

so, what would have happened if you would have not paid your client? it sounds like you would have had a valid reason to not pay your client? your client would have understood?

if so, then why did you pay the client?

Sorry I'm not being clear. Our payments is guaranteed. It means that we guarantee the payments. That's why we paid our clients!

I do not know if our clients would have understood, we never asked

fmltube · 12-07-2009, 10:24 PM

C'mon, for fucks sake. Even Walmart shows goodwill with taking refunds without a receipt and you don't even have to have bought it at their fucking store. Pay it, get some respect back (if possible), and then change TOS. If you don't change the TOS now, it will really look like you are purposely trying to fuck webmasters over who use the same marketing idea.

Shoehorn! · 12-07-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JenniDahling

Thanks Shoehorn, and for the record, I'm not an employee of HIGR.

My mistake - subcontractor.

Deej · 12-07-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by letitride

Agreed. Support her all you want on your dime. Not mine. Sit on the sidelines and watch because your views are subjective. Bottom line is shoe was fucked over and wasn't paid for the joins he WORKED HIS ASS OFF to send over. The TOS were not clear. You and your old lady should play with each other on your own time. THIS IS OUR TIME.

no offense, but who the fuck are you?

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude · 12-07-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty D

I am leaving the country for a couple weeks and will NOT be online.

This is fun, but I will be unable to play

My crew is available for any issues. (non shoehorn issues of course)

Bash away - lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penrod

That's what my friends Dad told him when he was little before he went to do a prison stint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488

i was thinking i shouldn't put my hand in dirty d's popcorn bucket.

True dat...

Send us a postcard Dirty D...since you are apparently "vacationing" at a "resort" without internet access.

ADG

fmltube · 12-07-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

True dat...

Send us a postcard Dirty D...since you are apparently "vacationing" at a "resort" without internet access.

ADG

Shoehorn! · 12-07-2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

I am biased, but this is art.

will76 · 12-07-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Due

Also promotion via keyword hijacking adware does not appear to be in the TOS.

Would you have looked at it different if that is how it was done ?

At the same time please keep in mind that adware is not actual illegal software but is also operating in the grey area as it's usually designed to take advantage of those from who you are superior (in other words, the stupid surfers)

If you deal with the law then you have to be very specific if you start specifying certain things. In this case it seems to be neither allowed nor disallowed.

you are crazy if you are trying to compare scumware to google ppc. There is nothing wrong with legit adware. The problem is with scumware that is really spyware and tries to prentend to be "adware". What zango did is not even close to how google ppc works. To make that assertion is as dumb as saying google ppc is the same as cyber squatting.

will76 · 12-07-2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

any non-shady program in this position would have used this thread/drama to make themselves look good - they'd have made good on the money they owe Shoehorn without agreeing with him. everybody would have clapped and commended DirtyD for doing the right thing.

1/2 the people here would still give him " wow way to go! " " takes a big man to admitt to his mistakes" " you are top notch bro" etc... if he pays up. It's never too late to get the "that a boys" from the bro club wanna bees.

How many times you see someone steal, get outted, backed into a corner, so they say "opps my bad, i am sorry" and everyone is like " awhhhh he is soo top notch, took a big man to say you made a mistake". fuck that he stole, got caught and had no choice but to cop to it. Nothing big about that shit...

thankfully Dirty D sounds so hardheaded he wont ever pay so we don't have to hear the " wow might swelll of you for doing the right thing, you are great" bullshit on page 43.

Iron Fist · 12-07-2009, 11:28 PM

Jeebus.. almost 20,000 views and 25 pages? Passing through..

Shoehorn! · 12-07-2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

you are crazy if you are trying to compare scumware to google ppc. There is nothing wrong with legit adware. The problem is with scumware that is really spyware and tries to prentend to be "adware". What zango did is not even close to how google ppc works. To make that assertion is as dumb as saying google ppc is the same as cyber squatting.

If nothing else this thread has separated the knowledgeable from the ignorant, and the people to do business with from the scammers.

DWB · 12-07-2009, 11:32 PM

This thread delivers.

Pay the man.

Oh, and fuck Epoch.

Socks · 12-07-2009, 11:38 PM

Same shit, different year, but 1/10th the money in question.

Matyko · 12-07-2009, 11:39 PM

llonger than a contest thread OMG!!!!

umbralui · 12-07-2009, 11:46 PM

sad sad....

Dodge2hot · 12-07-2009, 11:46 PM

The main thing I have a problem is this. Not only is Dirty D saying that what Shoehorn did was WRONG, but he offered to pay Shoehorn $100pps for a month for the same fucking traffic.

So if Shoehorn is in the wrong, then WTF is Dirty D offering $100pps to Shoehorn to keep this traffic and sales coming in?

See that is the part that tells you that Dirty D didn't have a problem with the terms used. He just didn't want to fucking pay Shoehorn.

If someone is screwing me over, I do NOT offer them more money to Fuck me over even more. So why that thread went on with people defending Dirty D is beyond me.

12-07-2009, 08:25 PM	#1203
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	Due, would you pay shoehorn if you were in DirtyD's position... yes or no? __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880

12-07-2009, 08:44 PM	#1208
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	mispost... __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880

12-07-2009, 08:47 PM	#1209
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	any non-shady program in this position would have used this thread/drama to make themselves look good - they'd have made good on the money they owe Shoehorn without agreeing with him. everybody would have clapped and commended DirtyD for doing the right thing. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

12-07-2009, 08:49 PM	#1212
Minte Babemeister Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Madison Posts: 7,081	This is going to be the most expensive $350.00 in the history of the adult internet. Should've paid the man his money. __________________ You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

12-07-2009, 08:54 PM	#1213
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	So who is going to design your show floor t shirts? __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880

12-07-2009, 08:13 PM	#1201
Juicy D. Links So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: N.Y. -Long Island -- Posts: 122,992	what going on here any poon pics?

12-07-2009, 08:38 PM	#1207
letitride Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36	Bump for Shoehorn. Bump for Justice.

12-07-2009, 08:57 PM	#1214
Sly Let's do some business! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 31,288	I have a feeling this thread just got more life... 10 pages worth.

12-07-2009, 09:03 PM	#1216
fmltube So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 886	I am not sure if the Playhouse Theater constitutes out of the country but judging by the girl in the picture, she does look like an ugly fucking foreigner.

12-07-2009, 09:50 PM	#1230
letitride Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36	Agreed. Support her all you want on your dime. Not mine. Sit on the sidelines and watch because your views are subjective. Bottom line is shoe was fucked over and wasn't paid for the joins he WORKED HIS ASS OFF to send over. The TOS were not clear. You and your old lady should play with each other on your own time. THIS IS OUR TIME.

12-07-2009, 10:05 PM	#1234
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	i was thinking i shouldn't put my hand in dirty d's popcorn bucket.

12-07-2009, 10:24 PM	#1236
fmltube So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 886	C'mon, for fucks sake. Even Walmart shows goodwill with taking refunds without a receipt and you don't even have to have bought it at their fucking store. Pay it, get some respect back (if possible), and then change TOS. If you don't change the TOS now, it will really look like you are purposely trying to fuck webmasters over who use the same marketing idea.

12-07-2009, 11:28 PM	#1244
Iron Fist Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 23,400	Jeebus.. almost 20,000 views and 25 pages? Passing through.. __________________ i like waffles

12-07-2009, 11:32 PM	#1246
DWB Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Encrypted. Access denied. Posts: 31,779	This thread delivers. Pay the man. Oh, and fuck Epoch.

12-07-2009, 11:38 PM	#1247
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,478	Same shit, different year, but 1/10th the money in question.

12-07-2009, 11:39 PM	#1248
Matyko PsyHead Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 8,662	llonger than a contest thread OMG!!!! __________________ -=- Register with our ref link and we help you with the setup! -=- AdSpyglass.com - Double your profit from brokers

12-07-2009, 11:46 PM	#1249
umbralui Do as i say, not as i do! Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in the mountains Posts: 13,755	sad sad....

12-07-2009, 11:46 PM	#1250
Dodge2hot Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 197	The main thing I have a problem is this. Not only is Dirty D saying that what Shoehorn did was WRONG, but he offered to pay Shoehorn $100pps for a month for the same fucking traffic. So if Shoehorn is in the wrong, then WTF is Dirty D offering $100pps to Shoehorn to keep this traffic and sales coming in? See that is the part that tells you that Dirty D didn't have a problem with the terms used. He just didn't want to fucking pay Shoehorn. If someone is screwing me over, I do NOT offer them more money to Fuck me over even more. So why that thread went on with people defending Dirty D is beyond me. __________________ Sexy N Nude