The Economy? LOL

[Robbie]

I have seen some people post that "It's the economy stupid"

Most of those remarks have come from younger people or people who weren't involved in entertainment in the 1970's or 1980's.

I was working in bands during those really bad recessions. And the entertainment biz was kicking ass.

Well, guess what? It's kicking ass now too.

Just saw a report on CNN talking about how the unemployment rate is going up.

But they said the one bright spot? Entertainment. Movie revenue is up 5%
Bars are packed. Alcohol sales are up.

Their analysts were pointing out that it's a natural thing because EVERY recorded economic bad time (including the Great Depression) has seen a boom in business for everything entertainment related.

But one segment of the entertainment industry isn't seeing more sales.

It's us people in the porn biz. Our shit is free. No need to buy it.

We should be making tons of money right now. But instead we are scrambling to find a way out of this mess.

People will go to the movie theater with their girlfriend and drop $40 for tickets and concession stand to watch a 2 hour movie in this recession in record numbers.

They are going out to bars and dropping a couple of hundred bucks in a few hours in this recession.

But for some reason...they just can't find enough money to spend less than ONE DOLLAR a day to join a $29.99 paysite that probably gives them access to a dozen or more other sites on that network and have 24/7 access?

And at the same time...they are spending a FORTUNE at cam sites. Claudia-Marie is making so much money doing cams right now that it's unreal.

So what could be stopping all these people from joining those paysites?

Uh...why should they join? It's all free. Who amongst us would go to the store and buy a $30 piece of merchandise (paysite) when they can get the exact same thing with the exact same quality (torrent site) for free? And they don't even have to look for the Free one. All they have to do is login online and go to the handy sufer forums and it's all linked up for them in nice packaging.

[notime]

Humans (some, not all) have unlimited creativity and some just won't go "quietly into the night" and fight like tigers but a few just might give up and look for new ventures elsewhere that are possibly "easy".

[notime]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I have seen some people post that "It's the economy stupid"

Most of those remarks have come from younger people or people who weren't involved in entertainment in the 1970's or 1980's.

I was working in bands during those really bad recessions. And the entertainment biz was kicking ass.

Well, guess what? It's kicking ass now too.

Just saw a report on CNN talking about how the unemployment rate is going up.

But they said the one bright spot? Entertainment. Movie revenue is up 5%
Bars are packed. Alcohol sales are up.

Their analysts were pointing out that it's a natural thing because EVERY recorded economic bad time (including the Great Depression) has seen a boom in business for everything entertainment related.

But one segment of the entertainment industry isn't seeing more sales.

It's us people in the porn biz. Our shit is free. No need to buy it.

We should be making tons of money right now. But instead we are scrambling to find a way out of this mess.

People will go to the movie theater with their girlfriend and drop $40 for tickets and concession stand to watch a 2 hour movie in this recession in record numbers.

They are going out to bars and dropping a couple of hundred bucks in a few hours in this recession.

But for some reason...they just can't find enough money to spend less than ONE DOLLAR a day to join a $29.99 paysite that probably gives them access to a dozen or more other sites on that network and have 24/7 access?

And at the same time...they are spending a FORTUNE at cam sites. Claudia-Marie is making so much money doing cams right now that it's unreal.

So what could be stopping all these people from joining those paysites?

Uh...why should they join? It's all free. Who amongst us would go to the store and buy a $30 piece of merchandise (paysite) when they can get the exact same thing with the exact same quality (torrent site) for free? And they don't even have to look for the Free one. All they have to do is login online and go to the handy sufer forums and it's all linked up for them in nice packaging.

Robbie,

I would like to have a profesional and open minded discusion with you about all sorts of things in this industry. Right here in this thread. I respect you and I know you like open discusions.
I'll ask challeging and hard questions but only to get you thinking of possible solutions.
Not that I am a guru or hold the absolute truth but I do have a different (maybe European, but experienced) opinion on many things if you want to hear it.

Let me know if you are up for such a discussion the coming days,
maybe some gfy readers can pick up a thing or two while we are at it and share some common wealth.

Jack

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by notime

Robbie,

I would like to have a profesional and open minded discusion with you about all sorts of things in this industry. Right here in this thread. I respect you and I know you like open discusions.
I'll ask challeging and hard questions but only to get you thinking of possible solutions.
Not that I am a guru or hold the absolute truth but I do have a different (maybe European, but experienced) opinion on many things if you want to hear it.

Let me know if you are up for such a discussion the coming days,
maybe some gfy readers can pick up a thing or two while we are at it and share some common wealth.

Jack

Absolutely. I learn new things everyday, and everyone has different experiences in this business which lead to different ways of doing things.

The only things I ever try to make statements on are the things that I actually have experience in. When I do something, I try to do it right.

And I've had my hands in a lot of things. Some of the biggest tgps in the world for many years, a content company, a hosting company, a paysite and affiliate program. And I threw myself into every one of those venture 110% and am hands on from bottom to top.

So yeah, I welcome any insight that you may bring to the table from the things that you are more knowledgeable about and I can certainly leverage my own experience and knowledge to make it an interesting back and forth.

[Major (Tom)]

bars would be empty too if i was giving out free hooch in the parking lot.
Duke

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by DukeSkywalker

bars would be empty too if i was giving out free hooch in the parking lot.
Duke

Exactly.

[notime]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Absolutely. I learn new things everyday, and everyone has different experiences in this business which lead to different ways of doing things.

The only things I ever try to make statements on are the things that I actually have experience in. When I do something, I try to do it right.

And I've had my hands in a lot of things. Some of the biggest tgps in the world for many years, a content company, a hosting company, a paysite and affiliate program. And I threw myself into every one of those venture 110% and am hands on from bottom to top.

So yeah, I welcome any insight that you may bring to the table from the things that you are more knowledgeable about and I can certainly leverage my own experience and knowledge to make it an interesting back and forth.

Had meetings outside the office all day and gut stuck in traffic for 2 hours trying to get home. Sorry to keep you waiting Robbie.

Question 1.
How are you currently approaching the European market?
-seen from a cultural point of view
-seen from language point of view
-seen from a billing point of view

[notime]

Originally Posted by Robbie

.

Question 2
About Business models.

-29,95 Memberships are often reffered to as a "sale" in our industry. Would you agree a buyer/surfer/user could possibly see it as a long term commitment costing $360 per year just for one site and he/she joins at a point that he/she is horny and where the mind has been taken over by lust at that point?

-29,95 is cheap for a heavy user. That's $1 per day. Let's not go into hours or minutes.
If a user watches many ours per day, the hosting/bandwith would become expensive after the affiliate get's the lion share of the sale. Say an affiliate gets 50% to 70% of a sale, is the bandwith still affordable for a heavy user or does everybody, like insurance companies, use a calculation of the average usage based probably on many members only coming in once per week/month?

-Every member paysite with video is actually a (mini/niche) VOD site with a (recurring) membership model. But why don't these sites (and there are many...!) offer access based on HOW the surfer WANTS it at any given time ? Like per minute, per day, per call, per week, per GB, per dvd, per scene, etc.? Is the 29,95 membership model based on fear that the client will not return? Could it be a surfer would pay 5 or 10 just for ONE day or an hour and DOES come back for more later and is willing to pay more NOT to have a recurring membership ? Most people pay for sex because they are horny and want to see it NOW but as we all know 10 minutes later...the need is gone and the mission was accomplished. Click and exit the screen/tab/browser...See you tommorrow, next weekend, etc.

[Agent 488]

99% of paysites are total garbage.

[notime]

Originally Posted by Agent 488

99% of paysites are total garbage.

Then you should build one that is not garbage and fits your idea of what IS good
and make money while having happy surfers at the same time.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by notime

Question 1.
How are you currently approaching the European market?
-seen from a cultural point of view
-seen from language point of view
-seen from a billing point of view

Everything I'm answering about paysite business comes from what I have personally experienced with Claudia-Marie.Com

Question1:
Culture, language, and billing: I'm going to assume that is a billing question completely. That's an easy one for me to answer. I have Local Billing in the cascade, and they show a translated join page and preferred billing option for just about every location in the world. I can theoretically bill an Ayatollah in Iran after he is done preaching against the evil Western world and heads back to his room for the evening.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by notime

Question 2
About Business models.

Question 2:

Bandwidth is not an issue.
I have a 30 terrabyte a month package with a couple of servers..cost me $2628.00
The tour uses far more than the members area so what the members do or don't do isn't really a blip on the radar screen.

Giving the surfer what they want:
One of the first things I did when we opened up was become one of the first people to use Phantom Flicks. Bill at PhantomFrog told me that he had just finished testing it on a paysite and was ready to market it and asked if I wanted it right out of the gate. I did. What that does is give a VOD option to download to own. Thanks to piracy I only have the scenes that were available before I started protecting my content available in the VOD section. But still, it's nice. I've found that some people just don't like commitment. So they would rather spend $1,000 buying scene by scene over a couple of months time rather than spend $29.99 for everything.

I've also given them options for buying a membership. When an affiliate sends the surfer they get a $29.99/30 day option OR a $79.99 / 90 day non-recurring option (if an affiliate chooses his PPS code then the $29.99 option becomes $34.99 so I can break even)
Type in traffic gets both of those options PLUS a $10 / 5 day non-recurring option

Funny thing...if we get a $29.99 sale from an affiliate I end up with only a $9.52 profit for all of our work. (after affiliate 50% and processing fee) But I can sell that $10 / 5 day type in only option and make $8.17 ! And those guys that buy that $10 membership will come back and buy another one when that one is up! (they don't like the thought of rebills)

So I have the potential to make $8.17 x 4 = $32.68 profit off of the $10 non-affiliate sales a month as opposed to making only $9.52 for a month off of an affiliate sale.

That is one of the big reasons that all the paysites are starting to develop their own traffic and we are watching the affiliate model slowly ride off to the sunset with the bigger programs out there.

So the readers digest version: I offer them both "regular" memberships and VOD sales. I also give different pricing and membership durations. I try to search and find every last penny that might be out there at all times.

And oh yeah...we also do some price cascading. For instance if a person is up for a rebill and their card is maxed out...we aren't going to just automatically decline them. We start searching for what they can afford at the moment. Card isn't gonna make $29.99? No problem we'll try it again at a lower price and keep trying until we hit it.
People don't always have their credit card paid on time or under the limit for a lot of reasons. Just because a person is strapped this month doesn't mean I'm going to throw them under the bus. Next month they may rebill just fine.

[Joshua G]

how did itunes go from nothing to the #1 music retailer, competing against an ocean of free MP3 files, which were around a lot longer than Itunes?

my opinion...they provide an attractive, easy to use service that is well priced, has no DRM & no malware. They also have a marketing genius selling it.

I think the reason for your success is that you have marketing savvy & a great eye for product. not because surfers cannot find your content for free. I dont see any improvement in your Alexa number since you started protecting your content. One may argue it has hurt your traffic. but obviously you know your stats & sales & i dont. all i see is alexa.

IMO the real reason porn is dying...

Originally Posted by Agent 488

99% of paysites are total garbage.

not just the porn business, but TV, hollywood & madison avenue produces complete crap. Watch "all in the family" then tune into John & Kate plus 8. To the extent hollywood revenues are up, its because tickets are now 10.50 a pop. but behind the scenes studios are firing execs left & right as DVD sales tank. & alcohol will always sell. Thats how the Kennedys got their bank.

i think your assertion that free content is damaging is accurate, but its not the only reason.

[Major (Tom)]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

how did itunes go from nothing to the #1 music retailer, competing against an ocean of free MP3 files, which were around a lot longer than Itunes?

my opinion...they provide an attractive, easy to use service that is well priced, has no DRM & no malware. They also have a marketing genius selling it.

I think the reason for your success is that you have marketing savvy & a great eye for product. not because surfers cannot find your content for free. I dont see any improvement in your Alexa number since you started protecting your content. One may argue it has hurt your traffic. but obviously you know your stats & sales & i dont. all i see is alexa.

IMO the real reason porn is dying...



not just the porn business, but TV, hollywood & madison avenue produces complete crap. Watch "all in the family" then tune into John & Kate plus 8. To the extent hollywood revenues are up, its because tickets are now 10.50 a pop. but behind the scenes studios are firing execs left & right as DVD sales tank. & alcohol will always sell. Thats how the Kennedys got their bank.

i think your assertion that free content is damaging is accurate, but its not the only reason.

Well if you created a product, like a pc for example, and it took off to huge proportions, and it had a feature where you could buy your favorite scenes for a dollar, it would work.
Problem is, no one can mainstream porn that big, because porn isnt mainstrem. The company who ran this would have to be a non adult company because everyone in adult are idiots in some shape or form.
Duke

[notime]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Everything I'm answering about paysite business comes from what I have personally experienced with Claudia-Marie.Com

Question1:
Culture, language, and billing: I'm going to assume that is a billing question completely. That's an easy one for me to answer. I have Local Billing in the cascade, and they show a translated join page and preferred billing option for just about every location in the world. I can theoretically bill an Ayatollah in Iran after he is done preaching against the evil Western world and heads back to his room for the evening.

Ok, let's, as a Dutch surfer, enter your website and give some feedback on the experience to see what can still be improved.

I clicked and opened 2 tabs from your main site.
1) (VOD) http://claudia-marie.com/vod/index.html?nats=MDo3NToxMA
2) (Instant Access) http://join.claudia-marie.com/signup...3NToxMA&step=2

1)
First I click on "buy tokens" on the VOD part.
http://join.claudia-marie.com/signup...3NToxMA&step=2
What I see as a Dutch consumer is an English language page with billing in USD$ and the country pre-selection set at USA. The design is not the same as the rest of the pages when I click around to get more info.
So my feedback would be; Why not make it in the Dutch language, offer Euro currency and pre select my country where I am from.

Also when on:
http://claudia-marie.com/vod/index.html?nats=MDo3NToxMA
and I click http://claudia-marie.com/tour/08/050...on/player.html and then click on "back to the main page" I go to http://claudia-marie.com/tour/index.html which was not where I came from. And if I click "continue tour" http://claudia-marie.com/tour/index002.html? results in a page not found.

2)
I goto the "Instant access" part on http://join.claudia-marie.com/signup...3NToxMA&step=2
First thing I see again is the english language with USA pre selected with USD$ currency.
What is most surprising is that I can choose between Creditcards and checks. Checks are not used in Holland (0%) and creditcard is around 20% maybe. So most Dutch people would expect direct debit (Ideal it's called in Holland) which is one of the most popular payment methods or premium phonelines at Euro 0,80 per minute (also one of the top 2 payment ways locally).
"Instant access" suggest surfers to pay like I mentioned above (seen from a local view point) and I don't understand why I have to give all my information, create user/pass and click on a button called "Join now" (which suggest a from of membership instead of instant access and pay anonymously). I happen to know that from the Euro 0,80 per minute you can bill consumers in Holland (which is incl. 19% VAT) you can get a pay-out starting from Euro 0,52 (ex VAT) and more with volume. (www.dialxs.com offers above payment methods by the way)

Like I said. No critisism, just feedback that might improve your local marketing and get those conversions up and local billing payouts even higher!

[Major (Tom)]

Originally Posted by notime

Ok, let's, as a Dutch surfer, enter your website and give some feedback on the experience to see what can still be improved.

I clicked and opened 2 tabs from your main site.
1) (VOD) http://claudia-marie.com/vod/index.html?nats=MDo3NToxMA
2) (Instant Access) http://join.claudia-marie.com/signup...3NToxMA&step=2

1)
First I click on "buy tokens" on the VOD part.
http://join.claudia-marie.com/signup...3NToxMA&step=2
What I see as a Dutch consumer is an English language page with billing in USD$ and the country pre-selection set at USA. The design is not the same as the rest of the pages when I click around to get more info.
So my feedback would be; Why not make it in the Dutch language, offer Euro currency and pre select my country where I am from.

Also when on:
http://claudia-marie.com/vod/index.html?nats=MDo3NToxMA
and I click http://claudia-marie.com/tour/08/050...on/player.html and then click on "back to the main page" I go to http://claudia-marie.com/tour/index.html which was not where I came from. And if I click "continue tour" http://claudia-marie.com/tour/index002.html? results in a page not found.

2)
I goto the "Instant access" part on http://join.claudia-marie.com/signup...3NToxMA&step=2
First thing I see again is the english language with USA pre selected with USD$ currency.
What is most surprising is that I can choose between Creditcards and checks. Checks are not used in Holland (0%) and creditcard is around 20% maybe. So most Dutch people would expect direct debit (Ideal it's called in Holland) which is one of the most popular payment methods or premium phonelines at Euro 0,80 per minute (also one of the top 2 payment ways locally).
"Instant access" suggest surfers to pay like I mentioned above (seen from a local view point) and I don't understand why I have to give all my information, create user/pass and click on a button called "Join now" (which suggest a from of membership instead of instant access and pay anonymously). I happen to know that from the Euro 0,80 per minute you can bill consumers in Holland (which is incl. 19% VAT) you can get a pay-out starting from Euro 0,52 (ex VAT) and more with volume. (www.dialxs.com offers above payment methods by the way)

Like I said. No critisism, just feedback that might improve your local marketing and get those conversions up and local billing payouts even higher!

I think most people with credit cards can read english. I seen no increase in sales when I added a biller that can geo target. I only seen an increase in fees.
Duke

[notime]

Originally Posted by DukeSkywalker

I think most people with credit cards can read english. I seen no increase in sales when I added a biller that can geo target. I only seen an increase in fees.
Duke

Offcourse many, but not all people, in Holland/Belgium can read English.
But with 26 million people in this area that have an average of 30 to 40K $ in savings but of which only 20% max. has a creditcard AND where they are used to having OTHER billing methods then creditcards for porn online because of cultural habits, remaining anonomously & trust issues, it just might be interesting for most programs to have a look on this detail.

Adding a biller from outside this Dutch area that geo targets is nice but far from perfect, seen from a cultural point, language point and pay-out point of view.
Why do local billing companies from Holland itself pay out 0,77USD$ per minute (or better) and the popular ones used internationally pay out 0,19USD$ per minute (where the consumer pays the same consumer rates? And that goes for most European countries.
The direct debit has a few different angles also. The ones with possible chargebacks & the ones that are 100% chargeback proof. Within these 2 (both) there is money either moved from client to merchant OR from client to biller and THEN to merchant much later.
And all this varies per country also. It's a complicated market for people outside Europe and/or not so into billing details.

[Dennis69]

Originally Posted by Agent 488

99% of paysites are total garbage.

So let me get this straight... your saying the content in the paysites are garbage??? But surfers can spend hours looking at that SAME content on tubes, forums etc? I wonder why... could it be because it's FREE!!!!!

I know what your saying but I don't think thats the extent of the problem!

[Robbie]

notime, you are absolutely correct about the VOD section. It's purely CC Bill only on that section. The VOD section accounts for less than 1% of sales on Claudia-Marie.Com by the way. It would be nice to be able to have that in a translated manner. But God knows that getting NATS and billers to be able to correctly function together isn't always as easy as they make it out to be.

Bill built PhantomFlicks to go with CC Bill...so it's easiest and most productive to just have CC Bill in that cascade. So there's no option for language translation. But you are absolutely correct about that being a weak spot for non-english speaking customers.

It's just not enough of an income to justify the time and effort and higher processing fees that it would take to bring the VOD section up to speed.

In all reality...since piracy has gotten so rampant, I have considered many times eliminating that VOD section completely. But after reflection...I realized that it still makes a few grand so I just leave it as is and never update the VOD section with any new scenes.

So the only scenes that they can download from the VOD section (and potentially upload to a torrent or tube) are all older scenes that were already out there before.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

I think the reason for your success is that you have marketing savvy & a great eye for product. not because surfers cannot find your content for free. I dont see any improvement in your Alexa number since you started protecting your content. One may argue it has hurt your traffic. but obviously you know your stats & sales & i dont. all i see is alexa.

There has actually been a DECREASE in our Alexa number from 2007 to 2009.

And I attribute that 10000% to piracy.

You're not seeing the bigger picture. Using Alexa...take a look at the big boys of affiliate traffic in 2007. Look at The Hun, look at World Sex, look at AL4A, etc. Those were the biggest freesites in the world and sent the most traffic to people.

Now, take a look at the Alexa numbers for the traffic people that are CM's biggest affiliates...guys like Joggs and Boobster and XCel Those guys are the kings of making sales with their freesites for big tits.

See the HUGE drops all the way around?

Now, take a look at Pornhub, Redtube, etc. See the HUGE increase and high Alexa rankings?

Guess what happened?

All the surfers who used to go to the legitimate freesites: tgp's, blogs Well, they are now at the illegit TUBE sites full of stolen content.

Now if my affiliates can no longer send the amounts of traffic that they once could...that means that our tour no longer gets that traffic.

It's pretty simple to understand when you look at it the right way.

Same as I've been saying over the last year...affiliate sales are DOWN. Type-in sales are through the roof.

Reason being that the legitimate affiliates who run a proper free site have far less traffic to send than has ever been. And all that traffic is now enjoying full scenes on the tubes. My TGP's for instance, can in no way shape or form compete with Pornhub.

Doesn't matter how much hard work I do. Or how creative I am. In the end run...a site full of free full scenes and entire members areas will kick the fuck out of my blogs and tgps.

And THAT is why my Alexa rating is where it is on Claudia-Marie.Com and not much higher. At one point it was around 8,000 now it's 16,000+ I'm actually getting more type in traffic than EVER. But when I send out galleries and my affiliates put those galleries on their site...well, in 2007 a good affiliate might have sent me 50,000 uniques from that. In 2009 they might send 250 uniques They simply don't have that traffic anymore.

Hope that makes sense to you.

[notime]

Originally Posted by Robbie

notime, you are absolutely correct about the VOD section. It's purely CC Bill only on that section. The VOD section accounts for less than 1% of sales on Claudia-Marie.Com by the way. It would be nice to be able to have that in a translated manner. But God knows that getting NATS and billers to be able to correctly function together isn't always as easy as they make it out to be.
Mo or Lulu from www.translationsxxx.com can handle that I am sure.

Bill built PhantomFlicks to go with CC Bill...so it's easiest and most productive to just have CC Bill in that cascade. So there's no option for language translation. But you are absolutely correct about that being a weak spot for non-english speaking customers.
Here lies a challenge...

It's just not enough of an income to justify the time and effort and higher processing fees that it would take to bring the VOD section up to speed.
Lower processing fees I was talking about with better payouts, not higher ones or less pay outs.
Either you want something done or you do not, that is a personal choice and focus of things you deem to be important for you (or not). That's a matter of choice IMO

In all reality...since piracy has gotten so rampant, I have considered many times eliminating that VOD section completely. But after reflection...I realized that it still makes a few grand so I just leave it as is and never update the VOD section with any new scenes.
Maybe I'm Mr. positive but I truly believe that blaming others, everybody and the rest of the world doesn't cut it. Maybe you leave money on the table without realising it or haven't tested/tried it yet.
Our VOD does 1:50 to 1:100 average/daily in our vod in Holland/Belgium and where we charge people $1,40 per transaction to pay with a billing method that is 100% charge back proof and where the money comes in our bank account the next day. And people pay it just BECAUSE they want to use that method since they trust their own bank.

So the only scenes that they can download from the VOD section (and potentially upload to a torrent or tube) are all older scenes that were already out there before.

This is about fear. What could have been or what might, possibly, etc. It's better just to go your own way and trust your instinct. Go from your strenghts, not your weaknesses or fears. And rely on good product, service, after service, marketing and press. Mouth to mouth. Niches. Honesty. People WILL come back. They do. Trust me. Sometimes they cancel a join just to see if they get spam or still get rebilled. If they feel safe, they will come back if the product is unique and "hot" for them.

[notime]

Originally Posted by Robbie

There has actually been a DECREASE in our Alexa number from 2007 to 2009.

And I attribute that 10000% to piracy.

You're not seeing the bigger picture. Using Alexa...take a look at the big boys of affiliate traffic in 2007. Look at The Hun, look at World Sex, look at AL4A, etc. Those were the biggest freesites in the world and sent the most traffic to people.

Now, take a look at the Alexa numbers for the traffic people that are CM's biggest affiliates...guys like Joggs and Boobster and XCel Those guys are the kings of making sales with their freesites for big tits.

See the HUGE drops all the way around?

Now, take a look at Pornhub, Redtube, etc. See the HUGE increase and high Alexa rankings?

Guess what happened?

All the surfers who used to go to the legitimate freesites: tgp's, blogs Well, they are now at the illegit TUBE sites full of stolen content.

Now if my affiliates can no longer send the amounts of traffic that they once could...that means that our tour no longer gets that traffic.

It's pretty simple to understand when you look at it the right way.

Same as I've been saying over the last year...affiliate sales are DOWN. Type-in sales are through the roof.

Reason being that the legitimate affiliates who run a proper free site have far less traffic to send than has ever been. And all that traffic is now enjoying full scenes on the tubes. My TGP's for instance, can in no way shape or form compete with Pornhub.

Doesn't matter how much hard work I do. Or how creative I am. In the end run...a site full of free full scenes and entire members areas will kick the fuck out of my blogs and tgps.

And THAT is why my Alexa rating is where it is on Claudia-Marie.Com and not much higher. At one point it was around 8,000 now it's 16,000+ I'm actually getting more type in traffic than EVER. But when I send out galleries and my affiliates put those galleries on their site...well, in 2007 a good affiliate might have sent me 50,000 uniques from that. In 2009 they might send 250 uniques They simply don't have that traffic anymore.

Hope that makes sense to you.

Things, as we know it, are seeing a major shift, I agree.
But since every threat offers oppertunity, it's up to the smart folks to guide it into the right direction, instead of going quietly into the night....

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by Robbie

There has actually been a DECREASE in our Alexa number from 2007 to 2009.

And I attribute that 10000% to piracy.

You're not seeing the bigger picture. Using Alexa...take a look at the big boys of affiliate traffic in 2007. Look at The Hun, look at World Sex, look at AL4A, etc. Those were the biggest freesites in the world and sent the most traffic to people.

Now, take a look at the Alexa numbers for the traffic people that are CM's biggest affiliates...guys like Joggs and Boobster and XCel Those guys are the kings of making sales with their freesites for big tits.

See the HUGE drops all the way around?

Now, take a look at Pornhub, Redtube, etc. See the HUGE increase and high Alexa rankings?

Guess what happened?

All the surfers who used to go to the legitimate freesites: tgp's, blogs Well, they are now at the illegit TUBE sites full of stolen content.

Now if my affiliates can no longer send the amounts of traffic that they once could...that means that our tour no longer gets that traffic.

It's pretty simple to understand when you look at it the right way.

Same as I've been saying over the last year...affiliate sales are DOWN. Type-in sales are through the roof.

Reason being that the legitimate affiliates who run a proper free site have far less traffic to send than has ever been. And all that traffic is now enjoying full scenes on the tubes. My TGP's for instance, can in no way shape or form compete with Pornhub.

Doesn't matter how much hard work I do. Or how creative I am. In the end run...a site full of free full scenes and entire members areas will kick the fuck out of my blogs and tgps.

And THAT is why my Alexa rating is where it is on Claudia-Marie.Com and not much higher. At one point it was around 8,000 now it's 16,000+ I'm actually getting more type in traffic than EVER. But when I send out galleries and my affiliates put those galleries on their site...well, in 2007 a good affiliate might have sent me 50,000 uniques from that. In 2009 they might send 250 uniques They simply don't have that traffic anymore.

Hope that makes sense to you.

it does...
its just that i still see paysites like you, the Duke, Twistys, Playboy, still getting good alexa numbers, so i assume you are still selling your content. So instead of making a million a year, you make 500K. From where i sit, that doesnt seem like the worst thing in the world. But I make about 30K right now. i would likely feel different if i was making what you make. but it comes back to the question in the movie "wall street" - how many more yachts can you buy that will make you happy?

i see a free world that is so collosal, it seems like the "war on terror" or the "war on drugs" in terms of the fight. no matter how much time & energy you put into DMCA, the weeds keep growing.

PS - in the future, no more attacks from me on your business. i like you & what you do. Im a dumbass to attack you. "JoshGirls" by definition, are beautiful well endowed ladies who perform exercises that bounce their boobs. Hopefully you will like what i am about to start selling.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

PS - in the future, no more attacks from me on your business. i like you & what you do. Im a dumbass to attack you. "JoshGirls" by definition, are beautiful well endowed ladies who perform exercises that bounce their boobs. Hopefully you will like what i am about to start selling.

I appreciate that. Disagreement is one thing, and constructive criticism is good too. But fighting and attacking each other is only good for one thing: amusing other people.

I prefer to meet people on GFY and find ways to make money together. Friendships can be forged in this business that can be very profitable.

As far as the amount of money...I'll be totally honest with you, and I'll bet most others would agree: I had far less stress and worry and debt in my life when I was playing in bands making $200 a week. I didn't have a care in the world.

But now? Well...2 years ago everything had been going great for 10 years straight. Money growing and growing. So I invested a lot of that money into real estate. Which left me with some BIG mortgages to pay every month. My mom was driving a 20 year old car that breaks down constantly. So I bought her a nice little Chevy HHR, it's in my name because I'm making the payments on it...which also means I pay the insurance.
In 2007 I bought Claudia-Marie a new corvette. It was a promise I made to her if she would do the website. So we started it in May of 2007, and by August it was exploding! I had a Hummer that I wanted to get rid of so I used it as a trade in and bought the vette for her. So I'm making payments on that and the insurance is crazy.

I also decided in 2008 to get out of South Carolina. I was living in a small house in a tiny hick town in S.C. I had been frugal for all my life and decided it was time to get myself my dream home. I was making good money and I'm in my late 40's. I figured: "now or never"
Plus it was getting kind of scary living in the Bible belt in that little town...everybody knew what we did for a living and all it was gonna take was one town council member to decide to "get tough" and it would have been bad for me.

So I decided to move to Vegas and closer to the business. So I bought a big ass house for a shitload of money and a huge mortgage and moved here Sept. 26th, 2008

Well, I don't have to tell you what happened the very week I moved here...that's when the economy collapsed. lol

So yeah...I do need to make lots of money just to break even these days. A year ago it was still good. My affiliate work from all these years was still bringing home the rebills.

But over the last year, I have watched those rebills disappear too. Why would a guy keep rebilling on some of those sites when their buddies at work are laughing at him because they get the same site for free on illegit tubes and/or torrent sites?

So it's been devastating for me as an affiliate of other paysites. If it weren't for VOD sales to AEBN and cam sales to Streamray...my affiliate work would only add up to a few hundred dollars a month. Keep in mind that in 2007 I was making 80 to 90 grand a month off of my work as an affiliate.

So anyway, THAT is the reason I push so hard for others to protect their content. As an affiliate I simply can't make any money with sites who have their stuff everywhere for free. And I'm not talking about crappy sites either. I'm talking about sites that shoot their own stuff and shoot it damn well...like Naughty America for instance. Their content is better than ever. But it's also EVERYWHERE for free and everybody knows it.

I just want to change that so that myself and others who have made their living as an affiliate can start making money again on paysites. Cam sales are great. But they've always been great. It's trying to sell paysites that is a nightmare right now.

And if I can still kick ass with Claudia-Marie.Com by shooting exclusive content and KEEPING it exclusive by protecting it...then so can a company like Naughty America and the other hundreds of programs that I promote.

[Joshua G]

i still think its tough to separate the economy from the free stuff. every industry in america was looking at an abyss, & we've seen 2 years straight of job losses + banks being major assholes to their customers. its just my opinion that its hard to differentiate how much is the free stuff, how much is the economy. The music industry was mauled by the free world during a good economy, & people are still selling music.
i'm nervous because i'm "all in" on my paysite. it will be very sad if i cant raise enough sales to be self employed & bring my dream to the highest levels.
sorry to hear about the real estate shit. From my old job in real estate, i know how badly people have been fucked by the market vs their mortgages. a lot of bankers should be in jail IMO. along with the content thieves. People get years for ripping 100 bucks out of a bank, but nothing to rip an entrepreneurs 50K in labor off the web.

[Robbie]

The reason I say the economy isn't the main problem is my own experiences before through a bad economy. All facets of the entertainment business always have a great rise in sales in tough economic times.

It's happening now in every other form of entertainment EXCEPT porn. For the first time in history...the majority of people are aware that porn is now free. It never was like this before. We've had higher unemployment, higher interest rates, etc. Even a nightmare of a "gas crisis" in the 1970's. But porn and every other form of entertainment broke records for sales during those times.

But not now.

I have to admit that I'm a bit baffled that you and many other smart people don't think that having the product available for free and to everyone and that knowledge being widespread in the mainstream population would have this devastating effect.

I saw this happening a year ago. Claudia-Marie.Com took off from day one. It fulfilled it's target audience's needs perfectly.

Then sales started dropping off. Rebills started dropping off. Instead of growing it started going sideways.

That is when I started investigating and opened my eyes. When I was able to download my entire members area for free in a thousand different places...I knew what the problem was. And the fact that the links were posted on every big tit surfer forum out there told me that my target audience was getting it for free.

Once I got that under control, our sales and rebills returned to normal and it has been good times at Claudia-Marie.Com ever since.

The economy hasn't slowed us down one bit. But piracy sure as hell did. That's what I saw with my own two eyes. Hell, when I first started seeing the newscasters proclaiming we were going into a recession...I was telling everyone that the porn biz was about to enter a new golden age because people look for an escape from their worries.

But piracy stepped in at just the right moment to destroy that.

Honestly, I don't envy you with opening something new. Yes, you can do it if you're smart and bust your ass and maybe even listen to my experience and use that to jump ahead of the learning curve. But with so much free porn out there now, and so many people out there convinced that all porn is now free...it's a tough sell. I wish you luck, and remind you that to be successful you're gonna need to make your own luck.

[Joshua G]

i go back to the analogy on bottled water. it makes no sense to me that bottling water generates billions in sales per year. its absurd that the poorest people have a faucet & a bottle but people still pay for water. Sometimes logic can't explain things.

to bring that into porn (& music) there are still people that would rather pay then make the effort to find the free stuff. we've lost a lot of the casual, generic customers. but the niche people & the advanced fans who really focus on brands, seeking out very specific things, they're still out there. They'll pay for their latest love, because porn always has to be fresh.

when i go to the shady porn shops in times square, there are still dudes buying DVD's. Shouldnt DVDs be dead by now? Some people do not seek out the latest tech. they are set in their ways.

thanks for all your feedback. a reason im not mirroring your content protection is because i lack the money & knowledge to do it right. tonight i embedded my first flash video in my life. my feeling is that doing it wrong is just as bad as not doing it at all.

another reason is our relative positions in the business. Its not exactly bad for a no-name brand for the content to get shared. the cost in sales could be seen as free marketing. You have nothing to gain, where as me, if I get thousands of dudes liking my brand, i'll one day get their money from things other than the paysite. there is a master plan.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

i go back to the analogy on bottled water. it makes no sense to me that bottling water generates billions in sales per year. its absurd that the poorest people have a faucet & a bottle but people still pay for water. Sometimes logic can't explain things.

The reasoning for bottled water is easy...we were all shown television commercials for the last 20 years showing all kinds of nastiness in our tap water. Scared the shit out of everybody and we all started buying bottled water. I now use a water filter on my faucet...I'm still too worried to drink water out of the tap anymore. I don't think that analogy works in conjunction with porn.

But you're right about doing something correctly. You don't want to try and do protected streaming without putting in the time like I did and learning the flash and the necessary backend scripting.

And yes, you will get a lot of eyes on your stuff when it gets pirated. I do make sales that way too. Difference is...the stuff that's out there is the stuff I choose to be out there. And even that gets taken down after a few days by Remove Your Content.

Where you are going to run into problems is when a potential customer sees ALL of your stuff for free and you have nothing left to sell them. I would say that you are going to end up spending a majority of your time writing DMCA emails everyday.

It really sucks because just 2 years ago you could have released your project, got a few good affiliates and started making money. Now...it's tough to find affiliates that can actually send traffic and it's going to be tough to sell and rebill when you have your content stolen. I don't envy you for what you're trying to do. But if you ever need any help contact me and I'll do what I can.

[Joshua G]

well my life is about to become a grand experiment on whether the free world can kill a new paysite. i put JoshGirls.com online last night so CCBill & NATS can do their thing. you might like it. any feedback is welcome, you have my email. i was unable to get you at none@grampland.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

well my life is about to become a grand experiment on whether the free world can kill a new paysite. i put JoshGirls.com online last night so CCBill & NATS can do their thing. you might like it. any feedback is welcome, you have my email. i was unable to get you at none@grampland.

If you notice on grampland.com and shavedgoat.com there is a small link at the bottom of the main pages to email me. Keeps spam down on me.

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by Robbie

If you notice on grampland.com and shavedgoat.com there is a small link at the bottom of the main pages to email me. Keeps spam down on me.

thanks for the heads up. i'll hit you up when i have the affiliate program running. I'm optimistic theres still money to be made out there.

[Mock NyaMout]

Originally Posted by DukeSkywalker

bars would be empty too if i was giving out free hooch in the parking lot.
Duke

I dunno about free hooch. Maybe free cooch j/k lol.

[notime]

Originally Posted by Robbie

If you notice on grampland.com and shavedgoat.com there is a small link at the bottom of the main pages to email me. Keeps spam down on me.

I did not know you had those sites also.
Can you drop me an email please?
I might take better care of your advertising on those pages as a publisher with weekly payouts in euros with advertisers from around the globe.

Thanks in advance Robbie.

[seenoneseen'emall]

To all that contributed to this thread, it was indeed very informative. I share Robbie's former problem of living in SC because I operate out of NC. It is indeed amazing how much of the content is stolen on a daily basis but as porn site operators does anyone really care?

[FetishWeb]

Originally Posted by joshgirls

how did itunes go from nothing to the #1 music retailer, competing against an ocean of free MP3 files, which were around a lot longer than Itunes?

my opinion...they provide an attractive, easy to use service that is well priced, has no DRM & no malware. They also have a marketing genius selling it.

you might want to think on that a little harder. itunes was successful because of the ipod.

people knew in 2004 how to steal music, sure, what they didn't know is how to take it with them to listen to it on the go, at their work, in their car, etc.

[jackbdirty]

I'll tell you why the industry is taking such a huge hit. TUBE SITES< TUBE SITES< TUBE SITES. They steal the content.... put it up on their site...and give the shit away for free ... then they get huge traffic..... then turn around and shove it up our asses to pay to advertise on them. I don't know why the whole industry isn't going after these guys. Yeah, there are just a few instances where they are getting sued. But I think that they all need shut down. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Mock NyaMout]

Originally Posted by jackbdirty

I'll tell you why the industry is taking such a huge hit. TUBE SITES< TUBE SITES< TUBE SITES. They steal the content.... put it up on their site...and give the shit away for free ... then they get huge traffic..... then turn around and shove it up our asses to pay to advertise on them. I don't know why the whole industry isn't going after these guys. Yeah, there are just a few instances where they are getting sued. But I think that they all need shut down. Just my thoughts on the matter.

But thats part of my business plan.

Check with me in the Summer 2010

[fatfoo]

I think overall the adult industry online economy is worsening. I've heard people say their sales are like 60% in October, than what they should be. Actors / Actresses are getting less work. It's harder to make profitable TGPs. And tubes are spreading free content, and often stealing content. Stop content theft!

[incredibleworkethic]

One of the best things we can do is start adapting and applying new practices today. Not 5 years from now, not 1 year from now, not a month from now, not tomorrow, but today.

- Good content
- Good site design
- Good customer service
- Excellent update counts
- Excellent video security
- and maybe a unique twist to how porn is dished out and charged to the members.

[Mock NyaMout]

Originally Posted by IsItWorthJoining-com

One of the best things we can do is start adapting and applying new practices today. Not 5 years from now, not 1 year from now, not a month from now, not tomorrow, but today.

- Good content
- Good site design
- Good customer service
- Excellent update counts
- Excellent video security
- and maybe a unique twist to how porn is dished out and charged to the members.

I will let you know the answer when I launch my new site.

[gideongallery]

you are so fucking close to the correct answer, if you were truely creative instead of just a successful copycat of other peoples idea you would have gotten it by now.

[iaccess]

In my experience people will always try to get shit for free, they will search for hours just to save a dime. When you have sites like p0rnhub and myfr33pays1te.com out there that list very high in google, people just wont look any further. They beat off 5 minutes, cum and come back to that free site a week later to beat it another 5 minutes.

The only way I see you can get someone to actually pay for porn is if you have very specific niched content and even then you`re limiting your market because only a fraction of porn viewers will like your niche.

I found this thread very interesting just wanted to add my

[gaffg]

I would say cam sites would be a great biz to get into.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Robbie

The reason I say the economy isn't the main problem is my own experiences before through a bad economy. All facets of the entertainment business always have a great rise in sales in tough economic times.

It's happening now in every other form of entertainment EXCEPT porn. For the first time in history...the majority of people are aware that porn is now free. It never was like this before. We've had higher unemployment, higher interest rates, etc. Even a nightmare of a "gas crisis" in the 1970's. But porn and every other form of entertainment broke records for sales during those times.

But not now.

I have to admit that I'm a bit baffled that you and many other smart people don't think that having the product available for free and to everyone and that knowledge being widespread in the mainstream population would have this devastating effect.

I saw this happening a year ago. Claudia-Marie.Com took off from day one. It fulfilled it's target audience's needs perfectly.

Then sales started dropping off. Rebills started dropping off. Instead of growing it started going sideways.

That is when I started investigating and opened my eyes. When I was able to download my entire members area for free in a thousand different places...I knew what the problem was. And the fact that the links were posted on every big tit surfer forum out there told me that my target audience was getting it for free.

Once I got that under control, our sales and rebills returned to normal and it has been good times at Claudia-Marie.Com ever since.

The economy hasn't slowed us down one bit. But piracy sure as hell did. That's what I saw with my own two eyes. Hell, when I first started seeing the newscasters proclaiming we were going into a recession...I was telling everyone that the porn biz was about to enter a new golden age because people look for an escape from their worries.

But piracy stepped in at just the right moment to destroy that.

Honestly, I don't envy you with opening something new. Yes, you can do it if you're smart and bust your ass and maybe even listen to my experience and use that to jump ahead of the learning curve. But with so much free porn out there now, and so many people out there convinced that all porn is now free...it's a tough sell. I wish you luck, and remind you that to be successful you're gonna need to make your own luck.

Hi Robbie,

We're about set to launch the re-designed PeabodyCash and guess what? Unlike in october, when some of my models were dis-interested in going to a 'streaming-only' member's area NOW they are changing their tune. So I want to go 'streaming-only' for Fellucia Blow especially. Any advice in that area would be grand. I'm worried that, with the new affiliate program launching soon, if sales/rebills fall because of the points you made (and continue to make) that the pie will shrink for everyone.

Anyway, I've monitored what you've done to Claudia-Marie over the past year or more, and highly respect the courage it took to take such leaps (of faith and technology). So I'm convinced your direction is the one to take.

[Lassitor]

I don't know why some people here think that the adult "Porn" biz is different from any other business. When there is a recession or depression the crap businesses that had nothing really to offer are often the first to go. Even in Mainstream entertainment I have seen loads companies that offer nothing original and just recycle other peoples work go out of business.

For those who are creative and original they will remain in business.
For those who are just trying to ride on the coattails of others, you will go out of business.
For those who are innovative and resourceful you will stay in business,
For those who are lazy and angry, you will go out of business.

Simple rules, but true for any business.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Lassitor

I don't know why some people here think that the adult "Porn" biz is different from any other business. When there is a recession or depression the crap businesses that had nothing really to offer are often the first to go.

Because the entertainment industry has always thrived during hard economic times. I explained that pretty thoroughly in my original posts. Porn is entertainment. Entertainment is NOT like any other business.

Just like in the early 1980's...the bar business is booming as folks will drop $100 + a night partying, movie theaters are setting records (and it costs more than a hundred bucks to take a family to the movies and hit the concession stand)...and yet people can't afford $30 for a full month membership?

I speak from experience here. If it were not for the fact that everybodies work is available for FREE we would be in a much different situation right now.

The music industry was completely destroyed by piracy. And that happened during a booming economy. Find your nearest record store if you don't believe me...oh, that's right, there aren't any. NONE.

Same thing is happening to the adult industry. Whether you believe it or not.

I played in bands professionally from 1978 to 1998 and I was there in the packed clubs playing and making great money all through the recession of the early 1980's.

There's a reason why people don't buy porn like they used to. Pretty simple to figure out really...nobody wants to pay for something that is free.

[Lassitor]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Because the entertainment industry has always thrived during hard economic times. I explained that pretty thoroughly in my original posts. Porn is entertainment. Entertainment is NOT like any other business.

Just like in the early 1980's...the bar business is booming as folks will drop $100 + a night partying, movie theaters are setting records (and it costs more than a hundred bucks to take a family to the movies and hit the concession stand)...and yet people can't afford $30 for a full month membership?

I speak from experience here. If it were not for the fact that everybodies work is available for FREE we would be in a much different situation right now.

The music industry was completely destroyed by piracy. And that happened during a booming economy. Find your nearest record store if you don't believe me...oh, that's right, there aren't any. NONE.

Same thing is happening to the adult industry. Whether you believe it or not.

I played in bands professionally from 1978 to 1998 and I was there in the packed clubs playing and making great money all through the recession of the early 1980's.

There's a reason why people don't buy porn like they used to. Pretty simple to figure out really...nobody wants to pay for something that is free.

Well, in the early 80's Disco was the rage...The scene was totally different back then too. Us kids pirated Music on our cassette tapes but the real action was on the disco floor.

Today bars thrive when they innovate and change with the times. Karaoke, sports bars, theme bars are doing well.

There are plenty of Used and New record stores that allow the customer to trade old for credits for new. Record stores also adapt with the times too.

Porn simply needs to adapt. Who ever does 3D porn is going to make a billion really fast, I mean a live action 3D, not avatar 3D. There is probably a thousand ways to innovate the porn industry where even if the content is stolen and out there for free, the customer will still come to our sites for the experience of it.

Well, that is my

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Because the entertainment industry has always thrived during hard economic times. I explained that pretty thoroughly in my original posts. Porn is entertainment. Entertainment is NOT like any other business.

Just like in the early 1980's...the bar business is booming as folks will drop $100 + a night partying, movie theaters are setting records (and it costs more than a hundred bucks to take a family to the movies and hit the concession stand)...and yet people can't afford $30 for a full month membership?

I speak from experience here. If it were not for the fact that everybodies work is available for FREE we would be in a much different situation right now.

The music industry was completely destroyed by piracy. And that happened during a booming economy. Find your nearest record store if you don't believe me...oh, that's right, there aren't any. NONE.

Same thing is happening to the adult industry. Whether you believe it or not.

I played in bands professionally from 1978 to 1998 and I was there in the packed clubs playing and making great money all through the recession of the early 1980's.

There's a reason why people don't buy porn like they used to. Pretty simple to figure out really...nobody wants to pay for something that is free.

Before I started in this crazy business I was in the music industry for fifteen years, as a journalist for Rolling Stone and Billboard and Spin (and about twenty others) and as an A&R exec at Atlantic Records (and a short stint in Publicity for Polygram).

I wrote an article in 1999 called 'What the Record Industry Should Do RIGHT NOW To Stop The Next Napster'. Remember Napster? Well, there was about an eighteen-month window when the music biz got that site taken down, and everyone thought the threat was over. I knew better - perhaps because I was younger (then) than most of my collegues and more 'in touch' with this new thing called the World Wide Web.

Well, the point of the article was this: Every major label should start thier OWN download-only 'store' that sells their songs for a dollar apiece, or set a price for a full album below what a CD costs. Basically, everything that iTunes became just a few years after this. Did anyone listen? No. That article was written for an industry magazine, a place intended for professionals 'in the biz'. The feedback was immediate and overwhelming. Here's a small sample of the feedback I got back in '99:

'Shut the fuck up, we stopped Napster we'll stop anyone else that tries to steal our shit, you don't know what you're talking about, this will all blow over, the good times will return...'

Look around.

Not saying I'm a Genius, but after fifteen years in the music biz (starting when I was sixteen, BTW) and knowing hundreds of people in the industry, and having some level of respect based on my work, and STILL no one listened.

So Robbie is RIGHT y'all - which is why i comment so frequently on his posts. He doesn't have his head up his ass like so many.

So:
Go streaming only
fight the pirates
make money

[ezgirl]

I don't think the Industry is doing poorly because people have too much money. Since the only people working steadily with safe jobs are government employees maybe we should invent government porn.

[Mock NyaMout]

Originally Posted by ezgirl

I don't think the Industry is doing poorly because people have too much money. Since the only people working steadily with safe jobs are government employees maybe we should invent government porn.

you think ?