Darin

Every type of site has its 'methods' which have been fine tuned and evolved through the years to be both productive and generate revenue.

Saying running a TGP is a dishonest way to make a living is a bit sarcastic, considering you are profiting from porn.

Real business people are hardly honest my friend.

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The Other Steve

Oh really???

If that is the case then I do business every day with a lot of cardboard cutouts - both in the adult industry on line and and non-adult off line.

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B_Maverick

I think Rayzor has the right concept. Your customers are EVERYTHING. Without them, there are no TGP sites...no Pay sites...no money. I think the biggest trouble is that it takes a long long time to get as big as The Hun or Worldsex...and most simply don't have the time or patience to do it.

Quality sells. If people like your site and are not jerked all over the place, they will come back. Each time they come back is a chance for a sale.

Why do you see the same commercials during the same television program...over and over and over? Because advertisers know that people don't make buying decisions the first time they see something. It takes constant hammering to get people to buy. If you chase a surfer off of your site simply because he hasn't bought anything in the first five clicks...then he might be lost forever. Why not give him something to come back to over and over...and maybe by his 20th visit, he will buy something.

Real world concepts apply here. If I walk into Sears, I don't want to be tricked into leaving just because I wanted to hang out in the tools section for two hours. Someday I might actually buy that set of 234 hand tools. Don't chase me away before I have the chance.

Serge Litehead

i kinda agree with your previous post and disagree at the same time.. how do you call and act upon ppl who want something for free? if your line of business giving stuff for free, is one story

but in cummon world we're living - nothing is free, surfers that come for free porn expecting alot of BS and if not expecting, they soon realize, no money - no honey

blind links is a bonus on top of free staff users get..
its not like someone starving to death with no money comes nocking on you door and you point him to the nearest diner

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Unleash_Hell

I have been shafted by a couple of companies in the adult industry (traffic), but my worst experience was with a mainstream software company that had nothing to do with the adult industry - completely ripped !
Never again.

12clicks

yes. I never agree with dopes.

give me you phone# so in 2-3 years I'll know how to find you and tell you you were wrong.

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Vick

This discussion has went on many times in many place so ......

The most important thing obviously is to maximize revenues

The surfer is a commodity to be bought, sold or traded. TGP's are not to hold the surfers hand and show them where to get tons of free material. TGP's and all free sites job is to get the surfer to the paysite as quickly as possible. The less time on a free site the less bandwidth used and the more likely they are to buy - i.e. maximizing revenues for the free site owner

No one has even done a conclusive study (that I have seen) but most likely if you have a TGP site and you have bookmarkers they are freeloading bandwidth sucking leeches. If they haven't bought in the first few clicks trade them for a new surfer or find another way to sell them, why hold their hand and keep giving them free porn hoping they might buy

It's not the most profitable model to give everything to the surfer, if the surfer becomes frustrated from clicking blind links and getting jerked around ... GOOD!!! Then when they get to a paysite they can appreciate quality and have been taught THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!!!

About the example of looking at tools in Sears for hours ... Tools are an investment and thought goes into investing in a good set of tools. They should last you a lifetime and can easily cost a few hundred dollars or more. Buying on line porn is a impulse buy, the surfer gets hot, sees something they like and BUY ON IMPULSE. Very few surfers view a $2.99 on line purchase as an investment and have to think about it for a few days. The dick (or clit) gets hard, they whip out the card and buy. From there is it for the PAYSITE AND THE PAYSITE ONLY TO GIVE THE SURFER QUALITY - IT IS NOT THE JOB OF A FREE SITE TO GIVE THE SURFER QUALITY MATERIAL

and I really believe you're way off the mark calling this thread "The Lack of Honesty in the Adult Field"

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FlyingIguana

the fact is, to build a tgp in today's environment, you need to skim gallery traffic to trades. you can gain more bookmarks by traffic trading than running a clean site much faster, meaning you make more money and can work on getting more sites up and running.

but, you are also sending the surfers to other quality tgp's. if the surfer doesn't have good productivity on the other tgp's, their scripts won't send you back as much traffic. so you start sending more to sites that your surfer likes and in return you get traffic from other tgp's where the surfer likes your site.

if you send them to a tgp and they don't want to be there, they simply close the new window. minor inconvenience. this is the future of cj sites because it works and the surfer gets tons of free porn without a zillion pop ups.

you do need a quality product, but should we be giving away quality on free sites? should we let surfers just have access to so much free porn their dicks are raw?

Que?

You try to outdo each other(tgp's) monopolizing traffic by offering more free stuff then the next .

Then you bitch about freeloading surfers and defend deception and jerking off the surfer when the tgp's get so good they get reluctant to sign up for anything. Mayor surprise duh...

if you cant sell your product without beeing an asshole your giving away to much.

Surfers didnt ask for more freepix and the shit that came with it. Its a Tgp competition thingy. A short cut way to make money from the start with, thats getting ever more sour by the day´. Costing a lot more to the biz than than is earned by a few.

Like warming yourself by burning cash...

The paysite sucks cuz the only way to get webmasters to promote them is by paying shitloads per signup which leaves no moolah for content. The quality paysites are all out there but nobody is reselling them on the tgp's. Not even the quality paysites themselves who use their exclusive stuff to promote ARS, teenteenteen and so on...(with a few glorious exceptions).

Thats right unseen honesty and quality gives a lot less for most even in the long run it seems.

You could be the one to start stemming this evolution by imposing rules for tgp use of your content. No you dont need to be able to police it just have it in your contracts. But it seems the content providers are as greedy as the next giving unlimited tgp use of their content and thus making this circle jerking tgp circuit possible...

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Vick

The only thing that marks how good any site is .... how much they earn

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Forkbeard

I believe this is the little ethical issue Unseen is railing against.

It's not obvious to all of us that maximizing revenues is more important than being honest in one's business practices.

But there's a huge class of people in this business who do, in fact, think it's obvious that revenues are more important than honesty. This thread is filled with arguments from utility: namely, that the stuff Unseen considers dishonest is really OK because:

1) it works and makes money;
2) it's faster/better/easier than other alternatives;
3) it's the "only way";
4) everybody does it.

Those propositions may be true, but as arguments, they don't really come to grips with Unseen's ethical complaint.

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FlyingIguana

ethical complaint? so we're suppose to just give away porn for free? free sites need to make money somehow, they need to generate traffic to make money.

its a way of distributing traffic to my other sites. i want to flow traffic through my system and the surfer wants free porn.
we both get what we want.

Forkbeard

Unseen, you are right.

Some of these guys don't even appear to understand what an ethical issue is.

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UnseenWorld

Your logic escapes me. If I were requiring people to put up misleading links, blind links, links to circle jerks and CP, THEN your argument would make sense. It's as if Ford took a stand against street racing which, according to your logic, would be hypocritical since they manufacture Mustangs. Non sequitur.



Like I said, two kinds of people in this business. SOME business people are dishonest, but the good ones can make a living without fleecing their customers or giving them the run-around.

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UnseenWorld

EVERYBODY would like something for free. The trick in marketing and sales is to convince the customer that the sample is so good, they should shell out money for more!

A blind link is a trick and a fraud, no two ways about it. If the links says "18 year old girl with big toy (16)" it should lead to a gallery fitting that description, not to the Farm Sex splash page or the next TGP down the block, which has a thumbnail of an 8 year old girl giving a BJ.

I find it amusing when someone wrote that the whole idea is to get the deadbeat visitor off his site. Yes, but get him off the site by convincing him to want to see something, and then delivering. I have no problem with a link like "Anal sex on the high seas (6)" that leads to a page with 6 Captain Stabbin sample clips. The customer is getting what he expected. But if you send him to "Lolitas In Lust TGP" (I made that up...no idea if there really is such a thing) from that link, it's just outright fraud and deception. A small one, perhaps, but it's just one more brick in the wall of evidence that this industry is run by a bunch of schmucks.

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Libertine

Actually, you are forgetting a rather large group of people: The semi-professionals. That is, the people that have other work besides this business, and don't take it very seriously, but aren't crooks either.
For example, I see this business more as a hobby than anything else. Sure, I make a few thousand bucks extra a month for trips and toys and such, but this most certainly is not my primary business.

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UnseenWorld

Because that is what you are offering. If I open a buffet restaurant and like an idiot offer "All you can eat for free" hoping to make money on drinks (not food), then that is my offer and I am bound by it. If I put up a door saying "More deserts here" but it leads out to an alley behind the restaurant, I'm engaging in dishonest business behavior.

Now, free porn is what TGP's are all about. Sometimes it's stated explicitly, sometimes it's implied, but that is the offer and the expectation. If you can't deliver the product you offer, find another line of work.

No business sells to every single customer who walked through their door. That's a fact of business life which the wise business person accounts for. Some businesses will kick out a visitor for loitering, but when they do so, they do so explicitly and not by trick.

I think the industry needs to work on better ways of filtering out the under-18 crowd, because I bet a large proportion of TGP "customer" are under 18, have no business being there, are chewing up bandwidth, and have no customer potential because they don't have a credit card. Perhaps someday we'll have an effective industry-wide free AVS system for this purpose. I tell you: It would boost our image quite a bit, because the public is concerned about minors viewing adult material. Certainly, we'd be getting a lot less attention from the Justice Dept if we did.

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JackFoley

This argument goes around in circles because if you are a TGP owner, your customers are inevitably "freeloaders" - people looking for free porn and coming to your site to find it.

If you hate freeloaders, then you send them off to a blind-linked trade so you can get some traffic back. But why do you want another site's traffic, if it's just going to be more freeloaders?

Someone said "if the surfer doesn't buy in 2-3 clicks, they're not going to buy." I don't think that's true, maybe the surfer just hasn't found what he's looking for yet. Most TGP owners don't list 100% of their own galleries, so WTF do they care if the surfer clicks all the links on their page?

I think the whole free site universe would be better off if they listed 10-20 of their OWN galleries (or sponsor-hosted galleries) and had 100+ non-blind links to similar trade sites.

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UnseenWorld

My beef isn't with TGP's, it's with the level of honesty evident in so many of them. There are dishonest pay sites out there as well. Should I thus close up shop entirely? I'm hoping that opening up a discussion will get some TGP owners to adopt a more honest model.

A good business person will find a way to make money from his traffic. Too many TGP owners are looking for the short-cut to fortune. As in the pay site world, the key to lasting success SHOULD be offer quality, offer a reason for coming (something that isn't available elsewhere...and is worth paying to get), and then deliver the promised goods.

I'm not one of those who'll decry The HUN for making it too easy to get quality goodies, because those goodies are like an advertisement or free sample. I've been to grocery store deli counters where you can literally have lunch because they will sample you anything behind the glass. However, I could never do that, because I'd find something I really liked and order a pint or pound of it.

I wonder as I stated elsewhere if a large part of the problem isn't that the system is clogged with people who CAN'T buy because they are underage and don't belong in your friggin' TGP in the first place?!

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JackFoley

I think that's an awesome idea, Adult.com for example could take the surfer's credit card info and e-mail address in exchange for REAL free access to a TGP, then upsell to Adult Platinum sites with the referring webmaster's code.

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UnseenWorld

Bottom line, find a way that makes the user want to go to that other site, don't just open up a trap door under him like the guy in the James Bond movie who displeased the Specter guy stroking his white cat.

What is disheartening is that the WHOLE IDEA of earning an honest living seems totally lost on so many people.

Most of the arguments I've read in this thread for the way most TGP's are run could also be offered by the heroin dealer, though I suspect there is a lot more honest among drug dealers (who need to rely on return business, knowing there is someone else a few blocks away selling much the same product).

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FlyingIguana

look, what is dishonest about it? do i kill people like a drug dealer? my surfers gets tons of free porn. in return for that i skim some of the galleries to other quality tgp's so i can increase my traffic which increases my bookmarks. meaning it makes it worthwhile for me to provide those surfers with free porn.

you don't get anything in this world for free.

12clicks

I'm amazed at the idiocy of this "ethical" argument.

defending blindlinks is equated to the argument of a drug dealer? yeah, ok.
Listen, say hi when you bag my groceries for me.

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SykkBoy

Come on, you're the one who admits you're only in this business to see naked women....
I'm in this business to make money....

we all have our own codes of ethics and morality....

sure free porn has killed the internet, but pandora's box has already been opened, you can either deal with it and find workarounds or sit around bitching about it all day......

sometimes what's "right" and what's "reality" clash like a motherfucker...

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FlyingIguana

you'd swear to god that free porn was a right for surfers.