A Quote from the American Civil War (before it ended)

[wehateporn]

?Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late? It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision? It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.?

Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864

[CurrentlySober]

i cant afford an American Civil War (before it ended)...

[Barry-xlovecam]

The CSA lost, didn't they?

The States' Rights Argument has been beat to death for years and they are still beating the broken drum.

[TheSquealer]

Interesting,... propaganda during war time. That never happens.

[Bill8]

you want a tissue or something?

go ahead and do something about it.

[Verbal]

Originally Posted by CurrentlySober

i cant afford an American Civil War (before it ended)...

With all due respect CurrentlySober, this hasn't been funny for well over a year.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

The CSA lost, didn't they?

The States' Rights Argument has been beat to death for years and they are still beating the broken drum.

Yeah since we have centralized things more we have not lost many of our rights.

patriot act, ndaa, indefinite imprisonment of citizens, citizen kill lists, warrantless searches, wire taps, spying on everyone's bank accounts, free speech cages, free speech free zones, undeclared wars of aggression, drone bombing of funerals, hospital workers etc. The list could go on forever.

I wonder why people would fight for their state not to join those causes?

[BlackCrayon]

they should of totally dropped the slave thing if they didn't want to be remembered that way.

[u-Bob]

Technically it was not a 'civil war'. </2 cents>

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Yeah since we have centralized things more we have not lost many of our rights.

patriot act, ndaa, indefinite imprisonment of citizens, citizen kill lists, warrantless searches, wire taps, spying on everyone's bank accounts, free speech cages, free speech free zones, undeclared wars of aggression, drone bombing of funerals, hospital workers etc. The list could go on forever.

I wonder why people would fight for their state not to join those causes?

You know, people bitch about how their rights have been trampled and blah blah blah... And I just don't see it.

I still need a driver's license to drive my car and still go through the same search when I get on an airplane, just like I have for the past forty years. I do not need permission to leave the country or drive to another state, and so long as I do not shoot, kill, maim, hurt, rape, or rob anyone else I'm pretty much free to do whatever I want.

We have access to more information, free information, and none of it is censored.

The other things you mentioned...

Patriot Act: I do not know of anyone who has been personally affected by the Patriot Act. At all.
Indefinite Imprisonment of Citizens: Did we start locking up people and not giving them trials. I must have missed that.
Citizen Kill Lists: Sure thing.
Warrantless Searches: We've always had this; It's called Probable cause. I know us Americans are so afraid of searches and our privacy, but frankly, the cops are welcome in my house any time for any reason. I have nothing to fear; My life is pretty fucking dull.
Wiretaps: Great, read my email and listen to my phone calls. They can even read my text messages. All they'll find out is where my daughter is, being as that's what most of my text messages and phone calls are about.
Free Speech Cages: That's new to me.
Free Speech Zones: New to me also. Are you saying I can't stand outside of my town hall and call Obama names? I'm guessing I can.
Undeclared Wars Of Aggression: Now that's comical. My father died in Vietnam and I do not recall us declaring war on anyone. We do not need to declare war to have a military action, nor do I consider them "wars of aggression". Iraq attacked Kuwait, signed a peace treaty, and then violated it.
Drone Bombings of Funerals and Hospital Workers: I don't recall this. I'm pretty confident that it would have been front page news.

Whatever here.

[sperbonzo]

Originally Posted by u-Bob

Technically it was not a 'civil war'. </2 cents>

Correct. A "civil war" is when two or more factions are fighting for control of the whole government/country. This was a war of succession, where certain states wanted to leave and be independent. This was, technically, their right under the constitution and the federalist papers.




.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Rochard

Drone Bombings of Funerals and Hospital Workers: I don't recall this. I'm pretty confident that it would have been front page news.

Whatever here.

and with this one point, you have completely discredited anything you have said

confident are you

[Yanks_Todd]

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

bla bla bla ... you are a tool.

Man I thought Rochard had a point until I read this rebuttal. The third "bla" is where you really proved your point. Then calling him a tool, wow, impressive. I can't wait for you to tell us how you are enjoying Harvard. There is no way they aren't crawling GFY for just this type of intellectual prowess.

[Yanks_Todd]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

and with this one point, you have completely discredited anything you have said

confident are you

That did happen. But civilian casualties in a war have nothing to with us losing rights.

[Captain Kawaii]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

The CSA lost, didn't they?

The States' Rights Argument has been beat to death for years and they are still beating the broken drum.

Your education has failed you. Read the quote again. Get someone to explain it to you.

[kane]

Originally Posted by wehateporn

?Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late? It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision? It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.?

Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864

It is true, the winners are the ones who will write the history and determine how things are viewed in the future.

There is a book called "When in the Course of Human Events" that is a very good read for anyone interested int he civil war. The author makes the case that slavery was only one of the many reasons behind the civil war and that it likely would have ended without the war. The real reason was money. At that time the US was very much an agricultural power and we sold a ton of crop like tobacco and cotton. Most of these cash crops were grown in the south, yet the leadership of country was based in the north. Those in the south were getting sick of paying taxes on their crops to pay for those in north and that led to the beginning of the secession. The author even points out that slavery wasn't presented as one of the reasons for the war until about three years into the war when the popularity of the war started to lag in the north.

The author is a tax historian so you expect him to look at things with a economic/tax slant, but it is still good read that makes you take a little different look at one of the major events in our history.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by Rochard

You know, people bitch about how their rights have been trampled and blah blah blah... And I just don't see it.

I still need a driver's license to drive my car and still go through the same search when I get on an airplane, just like I have for the past forty years. I do not need permission to leave the country or drive to another state, and so long as I do not shoot, kill, maim, hurt, rape, or rob anyone else I'm pretty much free to do whatever I want.

We have access to more information, free information, and none of it is censored.

The other things you mentioned...

Patriot Act: I do not know of anyone who has been personally affected by the Patriot Act. At all.
Indefinite Imprisonment of Citizens: Did we start locking up people and not giving them trials. I must have missed that.
Citizen Kill Lists: Sure thing.
Warrantless Searches: We've always had this; It's called Probable cause. I know us Americans are so afraid of searches and our privacy, but frankly, the cops are welcome in my house any time for any reason. I have nothing to fear; My life is pretty fucking dull.
Wiretaps: Great, read my email and listen to my phone calls. They can even read my text messages. All they'll find out is where my daughter is, being as that's what most of my text messages and phone calls are about.
Free Speech Cages: That's new to me.
Free Speech Zones: New to me also. Are you saying I can't stand outside of my town hall and call Obama names? I'm guessing I can.
Undeclared Wars Of Aggression: Now that's comical. My father died in Vietnam and I do not recall us declaring war on anyone. We do not need to declare war to have a military action, nor do I consider them "wars of aggression". Iraq attacked Kuwait, signed a peace treaty, and then violated it.
Drone Bombings of Funerals and Hospital Workers: I don't recall this. I'm pretty confident that it would have been front page news.

Whatever here.

Patriot Act: Look up "know your customer"

Free speech cage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

Free speech free zones:
Obama just signed it into law. H.R. 347

Undeclared wars of aggression: Just because they were done in the past does not make it ok. That would be like saying "yeah rape happens big deal". So bombing the Philippines is what? What country did the invade to have us do that?

Bombing funerals: Obama has made it policy to bomb an apartment building, wait for hospital and rescue workers to show up and try to save the women and children and bomb it again. Then follow up with more bombings on funerals and mourning ceremonies.
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/04/obam...ombs_mourners/
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com...-and-funerals/

Oh yeah and what country did Pakistan invade for us to be bombing the shit out of them?

[mce]

Before the Civil War, the concept of a US entity and national citizenship was foreign to many state residents. Lincoln changed all that. Thanks for the awesome quote.

[Yanks_Todd]

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

oh no? ..did you get a little butt hurt?

no, I was insulting you. I guess Harvard is out sport.

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by kane

It is true, the winners are the ones who will write the history and determine how things are viewed in the future.

There is a book called "When in the Course of Human Events" that is a very good read for anyone interested int he civil war. The author makes the case that slavery was only one of the many reasons behind the civil war and that it likely would have ended without the war. The real reason was money. At that time the US was very much an agricultural power and we sold a ton of crop like tobacco and cotton. Most of these cash crops were grown in the south, yet the leadership of country was based in the north. Those in the south were getting sick of paying taxes on their crops to pay for those in north and that led to the beginning of the secession. The author even points out that slavery wasn't presented as one of the reasons for the war until about three years into the war when the popularity of the war started to lag in the north.

The author is a tax historian so you expect him to look at things with a economic/tax slant, but it is still good read that makes you take a little different look at one of the major events in our history.

This is also exactly the way it was taught to me in college. A bit different from history in high school.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by Captain Kawaii

Your education has failed you. Read the quote again. Get someone to explain it to you.

I read it as belly aching bullshit ...

[Shotsie]

Originally Posted by kane

At that time the US was very much an agricultural power and we sold a ton of crop like tobacco and cotton. Most of these cash crops were grown in the south, yet the leadership of country was based in the north. Those in the south were getting sick of paying taxes on their crops to pay for those in north and that led to the beginning of the secession. The author even points out that slavery wasn't presented as one of the reasons for the war until about three years into the war when the popularity of the war started to lag in the north.

I don't think that's completely true or else the South wouldn't have went broke halfway into the war. Well, the North cut off all their supply routes. The North had all the industrial centers, the South - like always - was clinging to an obsolete way of life. The way society was set up in the Antebellum South was close to medieval feudalism. You had a couple extremely wealthy plantation owners, everybody else was basically serfs. And then the slaves. The South needed the North and vice versa. What's funny about that quote is that all the major confederate generals, even the president of the confederacy, were educated in the north.

[mce]

Originally Posted by Shotsie

I don't think that's completely true or else the South wouldn't have went broke halfway into the war. Well, the North cut off all their supply routes. The North had all the industrial centers, the South - like always - was clinging to an obsolete way of life. The way society was set up in the Antebellum South was close to medieval feudalism. You had a couple extremely wealthy plantation owners, everybody else was basically serfs. And then the slaves. The South needed the North and vice versa. What's funny about that quote is that all the major confederate generals, even the president of the confederacy, were educated in the north.

Not necessarily, I believe there was a Nobel winning economist who proved that the south could have industrialized even with slavery. I forgot the details. Interesting study.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Patriot Act: Look up "know your customer"

And you have a problem with this: "The activities of customer due diligence that financial institutions and other regulated companies must perform to identify their clients and ascertain relevant information pertinent to doing financial business with them".

In other words, if a bank is laundering money for terrorists, they could be held accountable. Sounds fucking reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Free speech cage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

Awesome.

The Constitution states we have the right to free speech, and that "Congress can make no laws" limiting this. But that's never been true, has it? You can't protest on my front lawn at 3am; Your trespassing and disturbing the peace. In some cases, you also need a permit for a large group of people.

Frankly, when there are security issues involved, there are and must be limitations on protesting and freedom of speech. If ten thousand people suddenly storm my home town "protesting" and breaking windows and setting fire to cars, yeah, there needs to be some limitations.

I'm okay with this, but mostly because I don't want people protesting on my front lawn at 3am.

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Undeclared wars of aggression: Just because they were done in the past does not make it ok. That would be like saying "yeah rape happens big deal". So bombing the Philippines is what? What country did the invade to have us do that?

Your calling it an "undeclared war of aggression". I'm calling it a police action.

My father died in a "military police action" when I was nine months old.

We do not need to declare war in order to engage our military. And this is rather obvious; The President of the United States does not need to declare war on a foreign nation so he can order the US Navy to take out a small boat of pirates off the coast of Africa. Past presidents of the United States has ordered the US Armed Forces into military action hundreds of times...

You can't compare this to "rape" by saying "yeah rape happens big deal". The difference is rape is illegal, the President ordering the US military into combat without a formal declaration of war is perfectly legal.

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Bombing funerals: Obama has made it policy to bomb an apartment building, wait for hospital and rescue workers to show up and try to save the women and children and bomb it again. Then follow up with more bombings on funerals and mourning ceremonies.
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/04/obam...ombs_mourners/
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com...-and-funerals/

Obama hasn't made it a police to hit a target, wait for "hospital and rescue workers", and then intentionally strikes again. It's not like Obama has his finger on the trigger or is even ordering anyone to shoot. Maybe he signed off on an order saying "If you can get this guy, nail him" and then a month later they got the chance and went for it.

More than likely they shot at the target and decided quickly on a follow up strike to ensure they hit the target AND killed him. Use some common sense here - They might be smart bombs and what not, but they are messy.

And when bombs start dropping out of the sky, I'm not running towards the area hit, but away from it. It's just common sense. If they launched one missile at at target, chances are there is more incoming.

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Oh yeah and what country did Pakistan invade for us to be bombing the shit out of them?

Read this very carefully... I don't give a shit.

What country did Pakistan invade for us to be bombing them? Your kidding, right? I'll give you one name that gives the US carte blanche to do whatever we want in Pakistan. We trusted the government of Pakistan so much we didn't even tell him we knew where he was, no less did we tell them we were violating their air space to launch a military attack on their land - right next to a fucking military base of all places.

You bitch about illegal wars of aggression; We violated intentional law by launching a military strike into a "friendly" nation. Obama signed the order and watched it all go down. Pakistan is welcome to file any fucking complaints it wants.