The Porn Nerd

I actually know what's "next' BUT it's a tricky thing, finding the right talent, the right "performers", being able to work within a reasonable budget,etc etc. But I will give you all a hint, here on this very public webmaster (supposed) board:

Intimacy.

Notice how most porn looks like there's a referree standing just off-screen, with a stop-watch, and it's like he goes "GO!" and the already-stiff cock magically appears, the already-nude girl with her already-open mouth is already on her knees, waiting to be face-fucked like a human skill-fucking machine, while we all wait for the requisite 3 positions (reverse-cowgirl, doggy, missionary) to commence so we can ejaculate at exactly 4:35?

Yeah well, quit that shit if you wanna survive.

I could go on and on about not shooting bald-headed quasi Nazi-skinhead-type-looking-gym/'roid rats who "fuck" like they're doing reps at said gym but I won't bother. Filming the girls so they don't ALL look like they're being used as human sperm receptacles - but it's okay cause she (wink) is "in on it" - and not cumming on the face EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME (9/10) would be a great start, too.

As I said, I could go on and on. But you prolly think I'm not talking about PORN then, right?

Exactly. Porn is Dying; filming the intimate human sex act is where the only "reality" still exists. And no, I ain't talkin' about "amateur" shaky cam/bad lighting shit (like with Mister Peabody). No, I'm talking about -

Enough. But that's the Future. For now. HOW the above is Presented is equally and crucially important. Human "need" will always exist; the trick is finding out how best to fulfill it.

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Barefootsies

Good thinking sire.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Paul Markham

Launching an Internet site in 2010 is very different than launching it in 2000 or 2005.

You need to be able to come up with a completely new kick ass idea or it needs to as good or better than it's competitors. The customer does not care if you're new, he cares if you deliver what he wants.

Even a lot of money will not get a bad idea or site off the ground for long today.

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Paul Markham

Great post. How do people expect customers to buy when so many produce the same fuck by numbers scenes.

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dyna mo

there's a lot of truth in this comment. a project has to be completed to stand a chance. there's so much to do and it all has to get done. i think it's a fight against human nature, we all have a tendency to start something, kick ass coming out of the gate, then lose interest or get distracted and leave it unfinished/lose momentum.

at least that is my *fight* a lot of times. the way i try to get past this is to do at least one thing a day for the project, it doesn't have to be any huge effort, somedays it might just be registering a domain or making a call or something. but even so, doing this is one step closer to completion.

Semi-Retired-Dave

250K conventions.
Bought every adult Keyword on Lycos and the traffic went straight to our Links Pages for our Webmasters.
Sponsored Howard Stern, so we were always on Radio.
TV campaigns.
Sponsored all types of Events anywhere and everywhere. From million dollar giveways to breast cancer awareness.
Never got Greedy, Always paid everyone on Time, if not early. And never missed a Check in for 14 years.

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will76

being new in a lot of cases means not being able to deliver what they want. A new dating site for example is going to have a small user base, producing less dates if any. A new classified site is going to have a small user base producing less sales for people if any.

Come up with an idea: check, no problem.
Build the site (programming / design): check, no problem.
Pay for everything to get build: check, no problem.
launching the site and getting the first wave of people to stick and use it: the million dollar question
sticking with the idea if it doesn't explode right away: where most people quit.

Think of a forum. You can have the nicest designed and programmed forum, with tons of features but when you start advertising it everyone who goes to it and sees no posts or only a few posts will leave. It's getting over that initial hurdle of getting your initial traffic to not leave but stay, contribute, and tell their friends.

I think most people (including myself) end up feeling that way because of the following:
1. we are the type of people who like to create new things and have our most fun creating something, not running it once it goes live.
2. If you don't see instant revenue from the project once it goes live you lose interest.
3. If you are real busy it is easy to get pulled off the project to take care of other pressing issues and then never make time for the project again.

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dyna mo

right on.

how about in the early early days, before you even made 1 sale? 10 sales, etc.

gideongallery

what you are talking about is first movers advantage

being first at something gives you an advantage because you are different then everything else.

Your free classified site today, has no uniqueness, it just a cheap ass copy of craigslist
and that the point

you have to buy your way to success because all you are is a copycat.

simply put if you want to blow up like craigslist you have to do something new not just copy craigslist

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Semi-Retired-Dave

oh, that was crazy! No money, no cars and constant work 24/7. Slept every other day.
We borrowed 5K and my partner had the craziest idea. He said, lets give everyone free hosting as long as they use our AVS.

I said that is the craziest thing I have ever heard, so we agreed this would be an all in business decision. So in 1997 we invested in a T1 with every penny we had. It was a break it or make it decision.

I was always on the boards like I am now so I would promote our new Free Hosting.
One by One, we started picking up new webmasters. The free hosting was a major hit.
Then we did a Banner Program, I made the banners with barely any skills and put webmasters banners on our links pages in exchange they put ours on their sites. Then the click through programs, then one after another, we did what nobody else was doing so the word of mouth got out.

Then we never stopped, never took a break, never got spoiled by the money we made. Till today, we have huge offices and constantly work. Can't get spoiled in this business.

This is the quick version of it, but it was a lot of work, that's for sure. And it paid off.

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marketsmart

i can't believe no one has used the word "LUCK".... for every break out site there are 1000's of great ideas that never catch on... craigslist was not the first classified site online and i dont think POF had the first free dating site... but, for whatever reason, they caught on and became very popular and were able to maintain their popularity for a long time..

there will always be the next big thing... its just a matter of being at the right place at the right time with the right product... LOL.... easy isnt it.....








.

dyna mo

actually, that's not a hard & fast rule, sometimes being second proves to be more successful- free rider effect. learn from the mistakes of the first mover.

dyna mo

fucking awesome post.

will76

funny a guy ranting about people being "copy cats" yet he thinks that sites that make money from stealing other people's content is a great thing.

Someone "copies" someone else's idea/ site = cheap ass, copy cat, etc...
Someone makes a site full of copies of other people's hard work = great.

Hard to discuss innovation with you when you are such a big supporter of people who make money from something that is worst than stealing ideas or concepts, stealing their actual content / work.

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will76

So your advantage was free hosting at a time when hosting was expensive or people didn't know how to get their own. How did you manage to keep your head above the water as the hosting prices have plummeted over the last 5-8 years.

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will76

that is what I am trying to narrow down in this thread. Is it because they were popular in high school/college and knew 1000's of people and got them all to start using it? Was it because they got lucky and knew someone at the local radio station that gave them a plug, etc... what are the circumstances of " right time, right place".

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chronig

Google developers are geniuses ... though I did originally hear about, and start using google, at a really young age, from <<< word of mouth >>>

Semi-Retired-Dave

AVS Sales were great, we would convert at about 1:50. So almost everyone using our program were making sales. We were also the first to offer other content to members then just access to the sites.

Some guys made 1 sale a pay period, but some also made hundreds. So it paid for our bandwidth. We didn't have the huge office spaces we have now, we were at home in a small rental with no employees. Just my partner and I at the time. That grew to over 20K foot prime spot real estate with over 100 Employees.

But yes, our advantage was Free Hosting and Support. Support was always bad back in the days. So I would take my support to the boards, I would do "Ask me anything about our programs" Threads. Also, we stayed home most of the time and all we did was answer emails around the clock. (We still kind of do with email coming to our cell phones)
Not much on GFY because this was more of a TGP board, but other boards that were more AVS friendly. I'm here because I like you guys.

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Semi-Retired-Dave

Thank you sir.

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Semi-Retired-Dave

Great thread Will.

Take MySpace, new concept and word of mouth just blew it up. But if you are into racing, you would know being in third or second for a while, you can learn a lot to put you in the lead.

There were tons of other Social Network Sites, Yahoo had it's own, Google had its own, and out of no where, Facebook crawled up and took the lead.
How did Myspace get so big, it was unique and everyone wanted their friends to use it. But the lack of new ideas to it's users, slowly had everyone joining facebook.

I don't believe in Luck, so I won't use that word. You can have millions of dollars, and still not get a new product out. There is a new social network start up every day, you never hear about them.

You need something so unique, your friends will be forwarding it to each other. Word of mouth.

Look at ChatRoulette, not sure how, but that guy got a little buz in the media, and its a name brand. He just doesn't know what to do with it. He was smart enough for the idea, but not smart enough to monetize the traffic that it's getting.

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dyna mo

right back at cha, thank you. i found your post to be quite inspirational at a time when i need inspiring as i struggle with moving forward on my mainstream business.

in fact, this entire thread has been a great motivator for me, so thank you, will76, for starting it and for everyone's participation.

best gfy thread for me in a long while!

The Porn Nerd

Some thoughts on the Discussion thus far:

Every project needs a Plan, and you better be good at Goal Setting and Time Frames. Do your market research, find out what you think you can (reasonably) make. If that excites you go for it! But have benchmarks - like, am I making x by such and such a date? Once you have your Plan, and your Goals, and you take consistent Action, then 'the rest" is:

luck
timing
forces beyond your control

Now, are we talking MEGA-SUCCESS like Facebook et al? Or are talking "reasonable" success like Mister Peabody World?

See, when i started MRPW in January of 2009 (yes, only 18 months old!) I did NOTHING but plan, plan, plan my little Empire for three months before taking any action. I had come from other AVS systems (not Cyber-Age) and Networks and kinda knew how I wanted to do things. But I told myself: "If I'm not paying my rent by six months of non-stop work, 18 hour days, 7 days a week, then I'll do something else."

I did the math, crunched the numbers, thought $2000 a month was more than reasonable...and then I worked my ASS off! Come Month #5 - 1 month to go before I had to decide to stick with this or move on - and I made my first $2000 month. Yay!

So I kept going, with new Goals: double the income in 6 months, otherwise....and then I hit that. And beyond. But I would've stopped if i didn't reach those Goals because, honestly, there comes a time when you have to stop wasting time and effort if it's not paying off.

Fortunately for MRPW and the dozens of people who make money with my little business it's working out. For now.

But "taking it to the next level"? I don't know, in this day and age, if that's even possible. Maybe things need to "settle down" for awhile and then next year Adult takes off again. Who knows? But I do know trying to be a Craigs List or a MySpace right outta the gate is wrong thinking. Why? Because NONE of the aformentioned mega-sites saw their own success coming, not on this grand scale, so it's pointless TRYING to be the next CL or whatever.

It's like with baseball: TRY and hit a Home Run and chances are high you won't; let it come 'naturally' and you just might.

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gideongallery

but that still an example of being creative and innovating the "learning from the mistakes of the first mover" is something new, and not just a cheap ass copy of the previous success.

1. i have never supported theif i have always said go after the leacher without a fair use right to the content (more than 100 times already)

2. that why you are not innovative.

you look at a site like tvtorrents.com and you argue that it making money of stealing content

i look at it and see that for 99.5% of the population is just a super pvr which has infinite hard drive space/ records every show/ and never misses a recording because of power outage etc.


your missing the innovation right in front of your eyes.

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Barefootsies

Exactly. If you want to wager your destiny on "luck", hit the casino.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

CarlosTheGaucho

Have a few ideas, none of those are adult, always note them down - have a little text file on my netbook where I note all my bullshit, even the craziest stuff.

Those that I could start small as a hobby are a niche on their own and probably have limited potential, those are the ones I should pursue though.

What I actually endorse a lot are some of those crazy sites that made it super big like perezhilton.com or hotchickswithdouchebags.com - you can come up with total bullshit, but when it sticks you can go MTV soon

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CarlosTheGaucho

Good read

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BestXXXPorn

I'll jump in on this thread ;)

Much of it is just luck... rank for some good words on google... gain some momentum, and ride the wave... I know a lot of successful web based businessmen in mainstream and 95% of them don't know their head from their ass... many times it's just plain luck...

One thing that's common to every example given is that the sites are ground breaking... if you're expecting to become a giant by delivering the same thing everyone else is... you're never going to make it... that isn't to say you aren't going to achieve some measure of success but you are, almost certainly, not going to become a giant.

Craigslist is as old as dirt in terms of Internet age and so it enjoyed the benefits of being an early adopter. Facebook started gaining popularity when MySpace started really become a trashy site... it served the MySpace fallout something they were looking for...

In both cases there was a strong need in the marketplace. Successful businessmen have always made their fortunes by finding a need in the market and filling that need. If it hasn't even been met yet you're the early adopter and it's pretty much yours to fuck up.

I've found the need I'm after in the adult space and I've had my head down for over a year designing and developing... My planned launch date is 10.10.10 and there's still MUCH to be done. I gain the inherent benefit of being a developer in the fact that I don't have to pay development costs up front. If I did I'd be looking at paying myself (or someone else) $250k to get the ball rolling.

One thing is for sure, it's not easy dedicating every bit of free time to a product that doesn't even stand to make money for 2 years out (when I started)... Even now with only 116 days left till launch it feels like 10,000 miles away. For a developer, and I'm sure many other professions, putting in a full 40 hour work week and trying to squeeze in another 40 - 60 hours per week on your own project is very, Very, VERY taxing...

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dyna mo

i wonder about the early adopter stuff, esp. as it applies to social networks, here's why-

i was head of business development for one of the first social network ever- collegeclub.com, this was 1997-2000. it never really took off, we had ~$80million in funding over that time as well,
fast-forward to facebook and it's massive and it initially had the same business model as collegeclub did.

a little trivia, i worked with halcyon while there, y'all remember him eh. this was pre-pink days for him, lolz.

BestXXXPorn

Wow $80 mil... that funding was not spent correctly :P

On top of that, bad timing ...

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Barefootsies

Actually, FB exploded when it opened it's memberships from being college/high school students only, to being open to the mass/general public.

That was during the peak of MS some number of years ago.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

dyna mo

hah, yeah, no shit. in fact, the week after the 1st round of financing, i believe that one was ~$10m or so, all the owners were driving new cars- corvette convertible, porsche boxster, etc.

then when the big round came through, they leased several floors of prime office space in downtown san diego, redoing the interior. our burn rate at that point was over $1m every 2 days, we were set for a nice ipo when the internet bubble burst. then it was all over and my stock options were kaput.

BestXXXPorn

http://www.facebook.com/press/info.php?timeline

2004 1mil in the first year with no funding... pure organic/word of mouth...
2005 5.5mil $12.7 million in venture capital from Accel Partners
2006 12mil $27.5 million from Greylock Partners, Meritech Capital Partners and others THIS IS THE YEAR THEY OPENED UP REGS
2007 They explode the same time MySpace becomes a pile of shit further feeding the flames

The rest is history, tons of press, tons of capital...

You can't be an early adopter if you don't gain traction I guess I should have said that in my previous post... but here you have the first popular (at all) college site... explodes almost off the bat based on word of mouth... there was a DEFINITE need there.

From there they picked up capital and I'm sure whatever investor was dumping cash in put someone in charge that knew what they were doing ;)

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BestXXXPorn

Hhahaha man the .COM boom days... Actually now that I think about it... the Porn boom is over, it's time for the porn crash (here we are)... We're currently in the "relearning and smartening up stage"... Next we'll see a few big players and some brand new guys come in and start playing the new game well. They will be the new giants.

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dyna mo

that's a pretty good comparison eh.

Barefootsies

In ten years, it will all repeat again. Both booms, and busts.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

ottopottomouse

I don't necessarily think it's being first especially with examples like myspace=>facebook.

Part of the other mentioned sites appeal (dating, classifieds) is going to be timewasting nosy browsing making people return up to the point where they decide to join up themselves.
Even if you initially fill up with fake profiles or fake items for sale you are giving people something that they will continue to daydream about after they have left the site.
Free membership covered by adverts takes away the biggest hurdle for signing up which was previously there with dating - can't remember match.com fee but it isn't silly cheap.

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ottopottomouse

And I still think 'the next big thing' will come about as a viral accident rather than someone's pre-planned success.

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The Porn Nerd

Of this there is no doubt.

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CYF

great read so far

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Relentless

Actually, waiting won't cut it. Too many competitors willing to step in when a need arises.
You'd have to predict a need, or find a way to create a need.

Predicting a need is possible but requires that you be able to produce any kind of product because it is unlikely even a correct prediction will be in a field you are already most comfortable with... the leader in predicting needs is Nathan Myrvold thanks to a huge amount of money poured into R&D so he can patent pretty much everything before the need arises. http://www.intellectualventures.com/Home.aspx

Creating a need is more along the lines of what Microsoft is doing, and at this point in the evolution of online business, that's really where marketing comes into play. They spent 100M marketing Bing to create a need for an alternate search engine where no actual need existed.

The same tactics work on a smaller scale and can be done with a lot of effort and very little cash. Webmasterchecks.com, websitesecure.org, linkspun.com, webmasterscore.com, whopaidme.com, industryincentives.com are all good recent examples.

Predict a need or create one (or a bit of both)... and then fill it with an elegant solution.

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Peace

Hei man hit me up i have idea for you )

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Trend

I agree with Dave. This is a great thread and like him, I do not believe in "Luck" either. I do believe that in today's market many of us are not willing to put in the time , effort, strategy and energy required to make something a success or better.. a brand worth following.

Will76 raised a question that honestly has me at loss when he stated / asked:

" The biggest hurdle I face with start ups that are similar to a classified site or dating site is how do you start it off with no users? Ok so you can fake it and make some bogus classified ads or dating profiles but still, who wants to use a site that is new and has very little to no one else is using yet ??? Is it because there were no other free dating / classified sites except for theirs back then so people gave it a shot?

That is an excellent question and one I wrestle with every day.... And I don't have the answer.

But to the other question about launching on a budget with little or no traffic, here is my contribution the the thread.. right , wrong or just tell me I'm crazy... I'd welcome the feedback and further discussion. I think this is a valuable thread.


1. Press

a. Press Releases: Press releases in adult tend to fall on deaf ears but they are still a "free" way to get information about your product or service. Mainstream press releases for adult offerings can be tricky but there are companies who will allow you to submit a press release if the release is "news worthy" and it does not contain overtly adult language or links directly to the adult site. Over the years these have proven to be a great way to achieve some mainstream exposure and has lead to mainstream opportunities.

b. Publications: There are plenty of publications out there in Tech as well as "Tabloid" who are willing to write about adult .. as long as there is something that is worthy of coverage. The key is cultivating the relationships at these publications and providing them something valuable. If you can make the "reporter" look good .. you may just find that they seek you out for quotes and information.


c. Mainstream Media: Same logic as the publications. Find an In. Dave mentioned that they sponsored Howard stern ... that's brilliant, strategic and I'll bet it took some time and effort to figure out who , what, where , when and why. Dave, I'd love to hear more about what you actually did there. But Howard, Opie & Anthony aside there are plenty of mainstream morning radio shows, TV Talk Shows and Documentaries who cover interesting aspects of adult. G4 TV, HBO, Tyra, Oprah, hell even Bill O'Riley has had Jenna on .. twice. Getting on is not easy but if you have a legitimate "hook" .. something news worthy or something timely to offer, especially during sweeps then a ton of tenacity might just pay off.

d. A Shocking Headline: Internally, we may all scoff at things like Ashley Madison offering $25M to buy naming rights... but all scoffing aside .. it made USA today as well as 295 other mainstream news outlets.


All of the above are relatively low cost / potentially high exposure opportunities. They do however require a lot of work , tenacity and the willingness to actually converse with people voice to voice. Rarely, will an email get you "mainstream" exposure.

CarlosTheGaucho

Being first is always a huge thing

Of course you have to be the first super huge, not just first first and no one knowing about you, and you have to be able to make the correct first and second impression, then you have to keep up with technology and changing trends.

But get them to use your service first, get them used to it use it repeatedly and chances are that they'll stick, think about the power of reference too.

Of course the attention span is different on the internet and it's not like selling something like cars that lasts for years before it gets replaced, this is the case with FB and how they kicked any other social site's ass offering all kinds of bullshit, that makes people look interesting even if they're not.

But let's take for example a local server that runs all kinds of classifieds, basically everything, cars, real estate, jobs, I don't know what.

- it's a total piece of crap, totally useless 90's interface, but they still keep the major market share and not even many more advanced services with major marketing push were able to majorly grab their audience, it's still the first place most locals go looking for info (apart from FB, that of course kicked their lame social networking site's ass )

But you're right that exception always confirms the rule and especially on the internet if you find a backdoor to your audience's mind anything is possible

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CarlosTheGaucho

Same thing Youtube had major venture capital behind them once they launched their unprofitable service to keep it alive before selling it to Google

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zuffa

Thanks for posting this. Sometimes we have a tendency to think these successes happen immediately... most often.. they take some time.

zuffa

Care to elaborate on what specifically "playing the new game well " means? I've enjoyed your posts and this old dog is willing to listen & learn

babymaker

Great thread for once been reading for an hour lol :D

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CYF

that's the million dollar question

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kektex

Heh, I would like to some of that "utopian dreamer bullshit" while making millions.

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NetHorse

Timing.

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