Will the real programmers please stand up?

[brandonstills]

Came across this and was laughing my ass off. Couldn't resist posting. So true.

[u-Bob]

lol

[woj]

[borked]

God knows what 2010 stats are

When world+dog runs PHP, it makes sense to be adept in it.

What separates the men from the boys is when other languages can do the same job but faster

[MetaMan]

I dont give a fuck about languages i care about making money.

I would rather have a hard working programmer doing stuff in php compares to a wannabe know it all guy who uses ruby on rails who "thinks" he knows what he is doing.

Some of you guys need to get off your high horse. How does what language people use change what you do? Sounds to me like you are haters.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

I dont give a fuck about languages i care about making money.

I would rather have a hard working programmer doing stuff in php compares to a wannabe know it all guy who uses ruby on rails who "thinks" he knows what he is doing.

Some of you guys need to get off your high horse. How does what language people use change what you do? Sounds to me like you are haters.

It's like saying html is coding, it's haha-funny. PHP is entry level code, compared to other languages, it's html. So now we have a bunch of "web coders" thinking they can code the next unix os, that's why it's haha-funny now.

No worries though, all the VB guys laugh at everyone... while everyone else with a life laughs at the entire lot.

[Davy]

PHP gives better access to newbies (because you don't need to know about any libraries) and it has great support.
PHP has better readability than other languages, like for example perl. So if you contract somebody to write a project for you, you can actually understand what he is doing.
And you don't need to have a webserver running like in Ruby on Rails.

So there sure is a reason why PHP is so widely adopted. It might not be suitable for some applications. But if you use caching, it's as good as it gets for the majority of websites.

[borked]

What would happen if all PHP apps turned on error reporting to report E_STRICT?

go on, try it on your live webserver and then see whether a programmer or a coder programmed it :P

[Brujah]

What language do "real programmers" code in?

[fris]

Originally Posted by Brujah

What language do "real programmers" code in?

lisp of course.

[quantum-x]

Originally Posted by fris

lisp of course.

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

It's like saying html is coding, it's haha-funny. PHP is entry level code, compared to other languages, it's html. So now we have a bunch of "web coders" thinking they can code the next unix os, that's why it's haha-funny now.

No worries though, all the VB guys laugh at everyone... while everyone else with a life laughs at the entire lot.

What's funny? i dont get it? i only care about making cash. The joke is on them for laughing at people about any form of "language".

This isnt something like a Neon pimped out and it beats out a Lambo in a race.

Programming is purely done behind the scenes and the people who it is made for ie surfers could care less what the language is.

[Adam_M]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

I dont give a fuck about languages i care about making money.

I would rather have a hard working programmer doing stuff in php compares to a wannabe know it all guy who uses ruby on rails who "thinks" he knows what he is doing.

Some of you guys need to get off your high horse. How does what language people use change what you do? Sounds to me like you are haters.

100% agree! It's like the designer who thinks how cool a site looks is the most important thing or a musician who thinks he needs to be the center of attention, at the end of the day the only thing that counts is what the end user thinks (sales and income)

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by Adam_WildCash

100% agree! It's like the designer who thinks how cool a site looks is the most important thing or a musician who thinks he needs to be the center of attention, at the end of the day the only thing that counts is what the end user thinks (sales and income)

Bingo. I just want to make cash.

My designs are purely based on stats now. I will design a base page of what i see from the market then split test the shit out of it. Create a formula and scale. The surfers basically "build" the site. The tale is in the stats. Everything before that is pure guess work.

[Varius]

Every language has great programmers just as they have poor programmers.

PHP is one of the more popular languages, with an easy learning curve, thus its propensity to have more of the "poor" variety. That doesn't make PHP a poor language, though.

In any case, one should always select the best tool for the job at hand.

For example, while I could write the same code in PHP and Python for a certain application, Python may execute faster or have pre-built modules PHP doesn't, saving time and effort. On the other hand, for a simple web application, Python is probably more time-consuming to develop in and not show any practical benefits.

[Mr. Cool Ice]

I don't use code. Code uses me.

[Linguist]

Originally Posted by Varius

Every language has great programmers just as they have poor programmers.

PHP is one of the more popular languages, with an easy learning curve, thus its propensity to have more of the "poor" variety. That doesn't make PHP a poor language, though.

In any case, one should always select the best tool for the job at hand.

For example, while I could write the same code in PHP and Python for a certain application, Python may execute faster or have pre-built modules PHP doesn't, saving time and effort. On the other hand, for a simple web application, Python is probably more time-consuming to develop in and not show any practical benefits.

Truth. I've seen some truly horrid objective c code recently. Like, amateur-hour "i'm trying to prove I can code objective c, never mind that my super complex 700 line code can be done in 40 lines" bad.

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

I dont give a fuck about languages i care about making money.

I would rather have a hard working programmer doing stuff in php compares to a wannabe know it all guy who uses ruby on rails who "thinks" he knows what he is doing.

Some of you guys need to get off your high horse. How does what language people use change what you do? Sounds to me like you are haters.

It was meant as a joke.

But, in answer to you, would you say that I am on a high horse if I claimed that doing long division with Roman numerals is dumb when you can use Arabic numerals?

I use PHP on a daily basis, have used Ruby on Rails, Lisp, Clojure, Factor, Perl, assembly language, plus many others, and even invented my own programming languages. I use PHP the majority of the time and the reason I use PHP is because I'm more concerned about making money too. It doesn't change the fact that PHP has issues though.

And yes, what language you use does make a difference on what you can code, how fast you can code, and that ultimately means what you can code.

Something that is only a few lines in Prolog could takes over a day and be hundreds of lines in PHP.

Different languages are better suited for different tasks. Even if they are geared towards a specific type of problem that doesn't mean they are actually good at it. Again, if you doubt that try doing long division with roman numerals. They are both used to represent numbers aren't they?

To say that a programming language does not matter is like saying there is no difference between a car, a horse, a plane, and a boat because ultimately they are all vehicles.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

What's funny? i dont get it? i only care about making cash. The joke is on them for laughing at people about any form of "language".

This isnt something like a Neon pimped out and it beats out a Lambo in a race.

Programming is purely done behind the scenes and the people who it is made for ie surfers could care less what the language is.

You don't find it a bit funny or comical that say... newbie designers on paint shop pro call themselves web designers when they can only make nasty color logos in a crap graphics program?

It's a bit funny, quick laugh and on your way you go... money or hobby or whatever the reason. No different than coders, php guys thinking they actually program something, it's funny to those that actually do it at a skilled level, because they're the ones making money from real programming.

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

You don't find it a bit funny or comical that say... newbie designers on paint shop pro call themselves web designers when they can only make nasty color logos in a crap graphics program?

It's a bit funny, quick laugh and on your way you go... money or hobby or whatever the reason. No different than coders, php guys thinking they actually program something, it's funny to those that actually do it at a skilled level, because they're the ones making money from real programming.

that's a touch different though, i would not tell them that photoshop or paint shop pro is better. it depends on their skill set.

saying one language is "training wheels" compared to another is not true at all.

What if a programmer is trained on PHP and not say rub on rails? or vise versa.

It is what you are good at using. has nothing to do with the language itself. I see the pic and it is not true.

my programmer programs in php and he is paid 100k a year+ and he is 20 years old. im sure he cares that "senior" programmers who he makes more than likes to laugh at him for programming in php is all i am saying.

it is not just a quick laugh and go. because this is what 90% of programmers think. and that is why i dont work with them.

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by brandonstills

It was meant as a joke.

But, in answer to you, would you say that I am on a high horse if I claimed that doing long division with Roman numerals is dumb when you can use Arabic numerals?

I use PHP on a daily basis, have used Ruby on Rails, Lisp, Clojure, Factor, Perl, assembly language, plus many others, and even invented my own programming languages. I use PHP the majority of the time and the reason I use PHP is because I'm more concerned about making money too. It doesn't change the fact that PHP has issues though.

And yes, what language you use does make a difference on what you can code, how fast you can code, and that ultimately means what you can code.

Something that is only a few lines in Prolog could takes over a day and be hundreds of lines in PHP.

Different languages are better suited for different tasks. Even if they are geared towards a specific type of problem that doesn't mean they are actually good at it. Again, if you doubt that try doing long division with roman numerals. They are both used to represent numbers aren't they?

To say that a programming language does not matter is like saying there is no difference between a car, a horse, a plane, and a boat because ultimately they are all vehicles.

Ok i will respond but explain to me how it is "real programmers stand up".

i know people who program in only PHP and make 6 figures +. where my buddy who programs in the "better" languages makes $30k (which respectable not cussing out working and earning).

so you tell me who is the real programmer? that's why i said i dont care cash matters. people can hold up all their great "languages" they program in. The degree at the popular school they got. The long programming job title. End of the day 99.9% of people will look at the guy making more CASH as the "real programmer".

the other 0.01% are the hater programmers making less. But hey they are "real programmers".

never forget that.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

that's a touch different though, i would not tell them that photoshop or paint shop pro is better. it depends on their skill set.

saying one language is "training wheels" compared to another is not true at all.

What if a programmer is trained on PHP and not say rub on rails? or vise versa.

It is what you are good at using. has nothing to do with the language itself. I see the pic and it is not true.

my programmer programs in php and he is paid 100k a year+ and he is 20 years old. im sure he cares that "senior" programmers who he makes more than likes to laugh at him for programming in php is all i am saying.

it is not just a quick laugh and go. because this is what 90% of programmers think. and that is why i dont work with them.

If you coded in php for 10 years, you can code in php.... if you code in many other languages, you can code in php without thinking about it, learn it in 20 minutes, probably code it without reference. A php coder can't do that in the reverse, unless they really are a programmer.

If you're paying a php coder 100k a year, you're off your rocker. The only php coder worth that is the one that works for themselves that created code that people demand that they keep up with - ie: a business man that can code. At a 100k a year, you could triple your code output and it still be at the same quality.

A 100k a year coder is vastly skilled, easily a master in 3 languages - normally more, along with strong administration skills and probably some advanced hacking skills, and does all of those and codes too OR they work for themselves and have mastered that skill.

[NaughtyRob]

Depends if its for the web or not. But most would probably agree that would be Java, C# or C++

Originally Posted by Brujah

What language do "real programmers" code in?

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

If you coded in php for 10 years, you can code in php.... if you code in many other languages, you can code in php without thinking about it, learn it in 20 minutes, probably code it without reference. A php coder can't do that in the reverse, unless they really are a programmer.

If you're paying a php coder 100k a year, you're off your rocker. The only php coder worth that is the one that works for themselves that created code that people demand that they keep up with - ie: a business man that can code. At a 100k a year, you could triple your code output and it still be at the same quality.

A 100k a year coder is vastly skilled, easily a master in 3 languages - normally more, along with strong administration skills and probably some advanced hacking skills, and does all of those and codes too OR they work for themselves and have mastered that skill.

i am not paying him, i am not that rich. it is a company. and no the people who run it are not off their rocker.

we are talking 7 days a week.

our site needs daily development. and we are training him for the future. we are talking sleeping and computer and that is it. we are in full scale mode. that is why the high price. you are asking someone to basically sacrifice everything for your company. and for a quality person to do that you have to pay them according.

if you boiled down the hours and his knowledge he is worth it. the time wasted screwing around with a bunch of programmers who pretend they know what they are doing when you are in scale mode is a waste of time and money.

you get one guy, pay him well, scale the hell out of it. and if its last only year no biggy.

dont blow smoke with your "master skill" that doesnt even mean anything. he gets the job done and thats all we care about. and is always here when we need him. save your accolades and fancy languages.

any business owner feels the same way. show me you can do the job not how much fluff you can blow at me.

[Varius]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

If you coded in php for 10 years, you can code in php.... if you code in many other languages, you can code in php without thinking about it, learn it in 20 minutes, probably code it without reference. A php coder can't do that in the reverse, unless they really are a programmer.

If you're paying a php coder 100k a year, you're off your rocker. The only php coder worth that is the one that works for themselves that created code that people demand that they keep up with - ie: a business man that can code. At a 100k a year, you could triple your code output and it still be at the same quality.

A 100k a year coder is vastly skilled, easily a master in 3 languages - normally more, along with strong administration skills and probably some advanced hacking skills, and does all of those and codes too OR they work for themselves and have mastered that skill.

Salary is often no indicator of expertise.

Some programmers charge a high fee, based on "references" and/or take advantage of the client who doesn't have much technical knowledge. Especially when it comes to freelancers, there are more than enough fish in the sea they can get away with it but it doesn't mean they are actually a quality programmer.

On the flip side, you may have guys who are extremely good and can't get the rates they feel they deserve, OR don't know what they are truly worth and accept less than they should.

In conclusion, you can find great programmers who are getting underpaid and mediocre programmers being grossly overpaid. It means nothing in regards to their skill level.

[martinsc]

Originally Posted by quantum-x

[goodsites]

I grew up coding in perl, changed to php over the years... I'm a much better programmer from age, but php is now far superior for web data programming anyway.

I do not follow the pack that is learning this OOP and Framework stuff though, i truly believe they are heading in the wrong direction. Its showing in a lot of the open source projects these days... just a bunch of crap, written by a bunch of wrongfully educated people.

However the language and salary averages you see is meaningless.. i know php coders that make 200k+ a year, and most companies utilize it because they can get entry level kids to code their crap cheap, and then keep the base income level down to fool the industry as a whole.. End result is they get what they pay for.. a lazy programmer that is all ego, and broken untested code that is spaghetti and impossible to read. I mean who the heck wants a daily headache for 40k a year when you can manage a mcdonalds with less hours and less stress for the same cash.

in 10 years the world will be moving backwards in technology and kinda screwed from the wrong ways they followed....

Microsoft is having this problem with its hired "genius Chinese coders" Sure they are smart as fuck, but practicality is where its at.. and all day long i am hearing these genius's saying to its coder base..."did we move in the wrong direction with this, i keep seeing you guys do that and this instead..." and the answer is yes...

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

ADG

[mgtarheels]

No, MY E-PENIS IS BIGGER.

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

Ok i will respond but explain to me how it is "real programmers stand up".

i know people who program in only PHP and make 6 figures +. where my buddy who programs in the "better" languages makes $30k (which respectable not cussing out working and earning).

so you tell me who is the real programmer? that's why i said i dont care cash matters. people can hold up all their great "languages" they program in. The degree at the popular school they got. The long programming job title. End of the day 99.9% of people will look at the guy making more CASH as the "real programmer".

the other 0.01% are the hater programmers making less. But hey they are "real programmers".

never forget that.

Like I said. It's a joke. Meant to be funny.

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

ADG

DOH! I wrote a function entirely from hex codes a few days ago. Does that count? lol

[v0id]

Originally Posted by borked

What would happen if all PHP apps turned on error reporting to report E_STRICT?

go on, try it on your live webserver and then see whether a programmer or a coder programmed it :P

LOL that would be a huge mess!

[brandonstills]

Originally Posted by quantum-x

That's fucking awesome!

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by brandonstills

DOH! I wrote a function entirely from hex codes a few days ago. Does that count? lol

What is this hexes codes that you speaks of?

See you at the EEB in a few weeks dude!

ADG

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by MetaMan

i am not paying him, i am not that rich. it is a company. and no the people who run it are not off their rocker.

we are talking 7 days a week.

our site needs daily development. and we are training him for the future. we are talking sleeping and computer and that is it. we are in full scale mode. that is why the high price. you are asking someone to basically sacrifice everything for your company. and for a quality person to do that you have to pay them according.

if you boiled down the hours and his knowledge he is worth it. the time wasted screwing around with a bunch of programmers who pretend they know what they are doing when you are in scale mode is a waste of time and money.

you get one guy, pay him well, scale the hell out of it. and if its last only year no biggy.

dont blow smoke with your "master skill" that doesnt even mean anything. he gets the job done and thats all we care about. and is always here when we need him. save your accolades and fancy languages.

any business owner feels the same way. show me you can do the job not how much fluff you can blow at me.

If the guy works for someone else and gets paid $100k, then you're being charged more than what he makes or the company isn't making a profit from his work.

I never said anything about a master skill... it's a skill to code in php - but not a skill that's worth $100k a year. And yes, you can find plenty of extremely skilled, very dedicated, amazing coders for far, far, far less money.

The reason a php coder isn't worth a $100k a year is because they're a dime a dozen. You can hire young teenagers that are masters in php. Most php coders started as kids learning it, if they didn't you shouldn't hire them, it's one of the first languages they learn - because it's so simple.

I used to think coders were worth that as well until I found better coders at half the cost.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by Varius

Salary is often no indicator of expertise.

Some programmers charge a high fee, based on "references" and/or take advantage of the client who doesn't have much technical knowledge. Especially when it comes to freelancers, there are more than enough fish in the sea they can get away with it but it doesn't mean they are actually a quality programmer.

On the flip side, you may have guys who are extremely good and can't get the rates they feel they deserve, OR don't know what they are truly worth and accept less than they should.

In conclusion, you can find great programmers who are getting underpaid and mediocre programmers being grossly overpaid. It means nothing in regards to their skill level.

If Salary doesn't indicate the expertise then it for sure indicate the stupidity of the company that hired them. We're not talking $10k a year extra, this would be a $30k-$60k a year difference.

I've never paid a php programmer a $100k a year, I've never had a php coder even ask for that much, or even close to it. Even the top skilled guys, multiple languages, administrators as well don't ask for $100k a year.

We can find them being paid all over, under and over paid, etc.. but not by 100% of the money they should earn.

[michael.kickass]

PHP Rulz!

[woj]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

If Salary doesn't indicate the expertise then it for sure indicate the stupidity of the company that hired them. We're not talking $10k a year extra, this would be a $30k-$60k a year difference.

I've never paid a php programmer a $100k a year, I've never had a php coder even ask for that much, or even close to it. Even the top skilled guys, multiple languages, administrators as well don't ask for $100k a year.

We can find them being paid all over, under and over paid, etc.. but not by 100% of the money they should earn.

Skilled programmer is a skilled programmer, makes no difference what language they use... it's like saying a skilled artist should be paid less because he works with crayons...

and no idea what you guys are smoking but a skilled programmer from the US certainly gets high 5 figures/year or higher, 6 figures per year is certainly not uncommon...

[BestXXXPorn]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

If Salary doesn't indicate the expertise then it for sure indicate the stupidity of the company that hired them. We're not talking $10k a year extra, this would be a $30k-$60k a year difference.

I've never paid a php programmer a $100k a year, I've never had a php coder even ask for that much, or even close to it. Even the top skilled guys, multiple languages, administrators as well don't ask for $100k a year.

We can find them being paid all over, under and over paid, etc.. but not by 100% of the money they should earn.

I'm paid 6 figures a year... I have over 11 years of experience developing in PHP. I also actively write in RoR, Erlang, C/C++, and Perl.

Doc you have no clue what you're talking about. Outside the adult industry there are a slew of PHP devs that break the six figure mark.

The language has no bearing on the capabilities of a developer. The best example came from someone in this thread making the comparison to Photoshop... cause I've seen a whole lot of nasty ass design out there ;)

In fact, I would argue that developers who don't use PHP for web development are the poor ones... There is no language / web server pairing in existence which can handle as many requests per second as PHP Fast-cgi over nginx; combined with the fact that the tech/software is open source... that translates to direct cost savings when compared to any other language / server pairing. Maybe not a big deal if you run a little dinky three box site but when you talk scaling to deployments of over a hundred machines... you see where I'm going...

To me it's all about efficiency. Sure, I love Rails' beautiful syntax combined with Ruby's true OO language structure but that doesn't mean it's going to save me development time, reduce overhead, or make the system more maintainable. Good, clean code following best practices is what brings the aforementioned things to fruition and those things can all be achieved in PHP.

So don't jump on the PHP bashing bandwagon unless you know your shit and you're ready to defend your argument. Some of the largest websites in the world run PHP and for a damned good reason...

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by BestXXXPorn

I'm paid 6 figures a year... I have over 11 years of experience developing in PHP. I also actively write in RoR, Erlang, C/C++, and Perl.

Doc you have no clue what you're talking about. Outside the adult industry there are a slew of PHP devs that break the six figure mark.

The language has no bearing on the capabilities of a developer. The best example came from someone in this thread making the comparison to Photoshop... cause I've seen a whole lot of nasty ass design out there ;)

In fact, I would argue that developers who don't use PHP for web development are the poor ones... There is no language / web server pairing in existence which can handle as many requests per second as PHP Fast-cgi over nginx; combined with the fact that the tech/software is open source... that translates to direct cost savings when compared to any other language / server pairing. Maybe not a big deal if you run a little dinky three box site but when you talk scaling to deployments of over a hundred machines... you see where I'm going...

To me it's all about efficiency. Sure, I love Rails' beautiful syntax combined with Ruby's true OO language structure but that doesn't mean it's going to save me development time, reduce overhead, or make the system more maintainable. Good, clean code following best practices is what brings the aforementioned things to fruition and those things can all be achieved in PHP.

So don't jump on the PHP bashing bandwagon unless you know your shit and you're ready to defend your argument. Some of the largest websites in the world run PHP and for a damned good reason...

As I stated above.... Programmers in multiple languages earn more, php coders don't. You're not a php coder, you're a programmer that can program in multiple languages. It's expected you earn more - it's not expected that a php coder earns as much as you do.

Over the years I've hired 20+ various types of full-time in house programmers, from extremely skilled to entry level, from creating web applications, our own web servers, billing solutions, our own affiliate programs, to stupid stuff.

Today I deal with nothing but outsource coders from all over the world, many of which post on this forum. If I hired one of them full time, 40 hours a week at the 'average industry rates' I wouldn't pay more than $40k for a full time php coder.

They aren't worth it because the market says they aren't worth it.

[Voodoo]

Real programmers use the turtle:

[BestXXXPorn]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

As I stated above.... Programmers in multiple languages earn more, php coders don't. You're not a php coder, you're a programmer that can program in multiple languages. It's expected you earn more - it's not expected that a php coder earns as much as you do.

Over the years I've hired 20+ various types of full-time in house programmers, from extremely skilled to entry level, from creating web applications, our own web servers, billing solutions, our own affiliate programs, to stupid stuff.

Today I deal with nothing but outsource coders from all over the world, many of which post on this forum. If I hired one of them full time, 40 hours a week at the 'average industry rates' I wouldn't pay more than $40k for a full time php coder.

They aren't worth it because the market says they aren't worth it.

I wouldn't hire a six figure guy to maintain a NATS installation either, LOL...

The reason why you don't see too many six figure PHP devs in the adult industry is because nobody is doing anything to warrant it... This industry lacks innovation and, in my opinion, is way behind the game. The vast majority of sponsor sites are still nothing more than glorified galleries, almost no one captures user info unless it's a paid signup, A/B testing is practically unheard of, and the amount of sites not built on some prepackaged solution is very slim...

Edit: And further more on that last part... Do people not realize in the adult industry that if you use a prepackaged solution that isn't open source your offerings and functionality are limited only to what (and at what speed) your third party solution is capable of providing? And that you can never offer more (or different functionality) than your competition? Do people just play this game to make enough money to get by? Cause where I come from, we play to win...

Third party solutions are for startups, to minimize costs... once you get to a certain point you should be looking at developing custom software if you plan on taking on some market share rather than just sharing in the market...

[fuzebox]

I'm a horrible programmer and not afraid to admit it. Doesn't stop me from writing all my own stuff though.

[Varius]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

If Salary doesn't indicate the expertise then it for sure indicate the stupidity of the company that hired them. We're not talking $10k a year extra, this would be a $30k-$60k a year difference.

I've never paid a php programmer a $100k a year, I've never had a php coder even ask for that much, or even close to it. Even the top skilled guys, multiple languages, administrators as well don't ask for $100k a year.

We can find them being paid all over, under and over paid, etc.. but not by 100% of the money they should earn.

If you're talking about a full-time employee, $100K comes to approx. $48/hour. A LOT of PHP programmers charge more than that. Of course, some will lower their rate for the security and benefits of a salaried position, but it's not uncommon as you think to find guys who ONLY do PHP/MySQL all day long getting 6 figure salaries. Adult is cheap, mainstream and gaming industries pay extremely well.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by BestXXXPorn

I wouldn't hire a six figure guy to maintain a NATS installation either, LOL...

The reason why you don't see too many six figure PHP devs in the adult industry is because nobody is doing anything to warrant it... This industry lacks innovation and, in my opinion, is way behind the game. The vast majority of sponsor sites are still nothing more than glorified galleries, almost no one captures user info unless it's a paid signup, A/B testing is practically unheard of, and the amount of sites not built on some prepackaged solution is very slim...

I wouldn't hire a NATS guy to maintain anything for $100k a year either

That's the thing - you are a business man that is also a programmer. Your "job" and mine at that, is to innovate, be different or unique - to be a resource of knowledge based on a range of skills. Not to sit and code, in php all day...

[Tempest]

Originally Posted by borked

What would happen if all PHP apps turned on error reporting to report E_STRICT?

go on, try it on your live webserver and then see whether a programmer or a coder programmed it :P

I actually code with my development system set to that... I've got to say though, that after having worked on and fixed some of the most popular scripts available, I have to say the vast majority of programmers in this biz are hacks.. And that includes some that everyone on here have said are top notch programmers.. LOL... One of the most popular scripts is so full of bugs and security holes it just makes me laugh. Not saying my stuff is perfect, no code is.. But by comparison.. sheesh.. it just shocks me.

[LeRoy]

Our programmers are baddass.

Funny when they come by my desk and go "What's GFY"

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by BestXXXPorn

Edit: And further more on that last part... Do people not realize in the adult industry that if you use a prepackaged solution that isn't open source your offerings and functionality are limited only to what (and at what speed) your third party solution is capable of providing? And that you can never offer more (or different functionality) than your competition? Do people just play this game to make enough money to get by? Cause where I come from, we play to win...

Third party solutions are for startups, to minimize costs... once you get to a certain point you should be looking at developing custom software if you plan on taking on some market share rather than just sharing in the market...

We've had/created our own affiliate software that produced 100's of sales daily and I've used mpa and nats for years as well. It sure wasn't a perfect world making our own... we went down during shows, had processors upgrades to deal with all the time, hacks to work with, it was an endless list.

The advantages to mpa/nats is it being used by many people, lots of people watching for errors, processor updates/issues, hacks, someone else adding in technology you totally don't understand and can't wrap your head around, someone else to manage coders that you may not be able o manage... with both you sometimes wait, sometimes you don't.

NATS/MPA3 can both look, offer, be greatly different than the next guy. You can expand them in endless ways, offer unique tools, change stats, add in any code you want really, build dating, vod, paysites, shopping sites, and make them all look different. Anything, any program has, any feature, can be built into NATS.

People play this game because it costs $1000's up to $10,000's less each month and plenty of people are wildly successful, millions a year and larger, using 3rd party software.

[MetaMan]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

If the guy works for someone else and gets paid $100k, then you're being charged more than what he makes or the company isn't making a profit from his work.

I never said anything about a master skill... it's a skill to code in php - but not a skill that's worth $100k a year. And yes, you can find plenty of extremely skilled, very dedicated, amazing coders for far, far, far less money.

The reason a php coder isn't worth a $100k a year is because they're a dime a dozen. You can hire young teenagers that are masters in php. Most php coders started as kids learning it, if they didn't you shouldn't hire them, it's one of the first languages they learn - because it's so simple.

I used to think coders were worth that as well until I found better coders at half the cost.

You have 0 idea what you are talking about.

You people just dont get it. Keep trying to save money. We pay our employees properly. have fun cutting corners trying to find real talent to stick with you long term.

again it is only people who make less who say it is "paid way too much".

i do enterprise sites now. you adult guys seriously have no idea about mainstream programming. you guys hire indian guys.

[borked]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

We've had/created our own affiliate software that produced 100's of sales daily and I've used mpa and nats for years as well. It sure wasn't a perfect world making our own... we went down during shows, had processors upgrades to deal with all the time, hacks to work with, it was an endless list.

The advantages to mpa/nats is it being used by many people, lots of people watching for errors, processor updates/issues, hacks, someone else adding in technology you totally don't understand and can't wrap your head around, someone else to manage coders that you may not be able o manage... with both you sometimes wait, sometimes you don't.

NATS/MPA3 can both look, offer, be greatly different than the next guy. You can expand them in endless ways, offer unique tools, change stats, add in any code you want really, build dating, vod, paysites, shopping sites, and make them all look different. Anything, any program has, any feature, can be built into NATS.

People play this game because it costs $1000's up to $10,000's less each month and plenty of people are wildly successful, millions a year and larger, using 3rd party software.

How can a premade affiliate software package cost up to $10,000 less per month?

I like NATS a lot but I don't think it's worth the $20k purchase price (I know, monthly leasing is less, which is affordable for small operations). A custom built solution if well made would cost a lot less to make and contain exactly, and only the features you need. I don't think processors modify their APIs that often to say upkeep of a custom built solution is costly and a pain - a processor is but a module plugin to a well-built system, and would contain what, 50-100 lines of code. Hardly a pain to modify.

I wonder if you've ever dealt with a well-built web app, built on a MVC-style framework? Because I can tell you, upkeep is not a hassle at all and adding new modules is so simple that working with such a framework is indeed a pleasure.