DVTimes

i know

i hope the riots go near where the olipics are going to be. it would be great stuff if they smashed all that junk up.

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Agent 488

50 signs of increasing social unrest.

DVTimes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/...20090315.shtml

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CaptainHowdy

Anyways, you're uunderestimating capitalism's capacity to revolutionize itself... this just looks like another revolutionary simulacra.

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DVTimes

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dcalm

let em grow weed ;D i finish as i see ur fanatic :D but what i mean is that u dont need communism to grow plants

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CurrentlySober

i like france

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roly

the tuition fees will be increasing from approx £3.5k/year to upto £9k/year over night. The current system has worked fine upto now, with cambridge the best university in the world, and three other british universitys in the worlds top 10.

currently the uk governement contributes about £750m/year to higher education which is a piss in the ocean in the grand scale of things, when you consider a highly educated workforce reaps huge benefits for the ecconomy as a whole, more than repaying the outlay, so the state should contribute something.

AdultKing

Yes but you don't need to come up with that money up front to go to Uni, you pay it back when you have the income to do so. Is this not correct ?

DVTimes

if we got rid of nukes then you would have the cash.

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DVTimes

rather a mess.

it means tha\t your better off not making much money.

if you earn a good wage you pay 50% tax plus your repayments of your loan.

put even if your not earning, your still getting letters each year asking to prove your wage.

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roly

that's correct but not the point. i agree that students should make a contribution, i also think it should vary according to the type of degree taken. students taking vocational degrees like engineering, computing, law, medicine etc should pay less than people taking some arts degrees and stupid degrees like media studies. But it shouldn't be just the student that contributes. After living expenses etc students are going to have loans of £50k+ which is prohibitive to poorer students. and before you say poor students won't have to pay, there'll be a lot of students who are not considered poor but whose parents couldn't afford to contribute anything.

AdultKing

We adopted this in Australia after having free universal University education for many years. I agree that in an ideal world tertiary education should be universally free, however this is not a perfect world.

I would much rather schools such as Oxford or Cambridge be able to recoup the cost of delivering courses than a model which unfairly favours the LSE funding wise, which is currently the case. At the moment the funding model in UK higher education institutions is so inequitable that students really are no better off in the long run. The quality of education has suffered over the past 40 years due to the various decisions of mostly tory Governments to adopt inequitable funding models.

Compare the situation in other countries where you have to borrow from shark like private finance companies in order to go to University or College, the proposed system in the UK is far more equitable than that!

In other countries you cannot choose where you go, no matter how well you pass secondary school and you have to pay through the nose for an imperfect tertiary place.

Also, don't you want to see a system that forces international students to pay the REAL COST of tuition ? England can't keep giving it away, no other country does.

roly

i understand where you're coming from, but i think this government has got its priorities wrong, it's announced that it is increasing the foriegn aid budget by 50% from £8billion to £12billion/year at a time when its slashing everything else from defence to police to defence. we give about £700m/year in foreign aid to pakistan alone, a figure that is nearly double the amount the government is cutting from university spending.

wehateporn

It will be interesting to see what you all think when the UN eventually rolls their plans for the world out over the next 20 to 40 years, unless anyone can stop them, Agenda 21 etc

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Paul Markham

Adam you are clearly drunk or trying to appear stupid. Communism hasn't worked in any country it has been tried in. Not one single country. In most it has led to an authoritarian regime where those in power are terrified of giving the masses the choice of voting them out. Of like in Venezuela, I think it's there, where Chevas is kept going on the money the US pays for the countries oil.

So ditching a system that works badly for a one that doesn't and never has worked isn't an alternative.

As for all the free stuff you get in the UK. IT'S NOT FREE. It's paid for by others. If you are living in a free, for you, house, have free medical, free education and all the other free things you can get in the UK. You're getting a form of charity. OTHERS PAY FOR YOUR FREE THINGS. Go live in a 3rd world country and maybe you can keep getting hand out from the Government or Overseas aid. I doubt if you'll be able to live on the beach in Cuba for long.

And look where it got you. Living off others charity.

What you are to blind to see is that of all those students protesting, 80% approx will end up in well paid jobs and will be voting Tory. SO THEY CAN GET THEIR TAXES CUT.

But obviously your business degree didn't cover common sense.

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Agent 488

what's a Chevas?

cykoe6

Seeing those filthy disgusting Marxist hippies destroying property in fits of juvenile exuberance reminds me of why the Lord created billy clubs, fire hoses and rubber bullets. Personally I think they should fire into the crowd and then send the parents a bill for the cost of the ammunition, the cleanup and the burials.

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BlackCrayon

Ok. So why do you want to bring the system down? What about it makes you opressed and unable to live a decent life?

and all you people complaining about capitalism, its not capitalism that is the problem, its people! their greed won't go away no matter what kind of system we live under.

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Paul Markham

The State pays for nothing. The State costs billions. It's tax payers who pay. If you want higher taxes then vote for them and be prepared to see your contributions the the State rise 10% or more.

Yes certain degrees should cost less, not sure about the law ones though.

The gap I see in the proposed system is after someone gets a degree. Works in the UK for 5 years getting the experience. What's to stop them emigrating abroad and not having to pay the loan back?

The problem is simple. The UK like many Western Nations has dug a hole for itself. They have a massive debt to repay. A debt that kept people like DVTimes in his free house, free NHS and everything else he gets for free. So money has to be found and cuts have to be made. If not on further education where?

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Paul Markham

Why does DVTimes want to bring the system down?

Easy.

He wants to see everyone living on the same level he does.

And that's the end result of Communism. It rarely lifts people out of poverty, except the Party Officials, it brings everyone else down to the lowest level.

A few things shocked me when I fist came here to CZ to live. One was the amount of Government owned housing, a Statement from one of my employees that "Only the Mafia and Party Officials have big cars" and the most shocking one was when Eva's parent complained about us throwing a big family Xmas dinner in a 4 Star hotel. They said they "Didn't belong in such a place." Meaning it was too fancy for them.

Thankfully in the 12 odd years since we moved here it's changed a lot.

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ottopottomouse

Standard of living plus general 'somebody else can sort it out' attitude means there will never be a revolution here.

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Agent 488

DVTimes on the dole? noted.

u-Bob

Over here, we have free health care, child support, cheap housing for the poor, free education until you are 12 and cheap education after that (and some of the best in the world according to the statistics), state grants for the poor, free housing for refugees, free transportation for those over 65, free education and training for the unemployed,... Every employee can take a 5 year leave of work and still get 80% of his former salary (paid for by the state). Fathers get 3 months of paternity leave (again 80% of their salary paid for by the state).

and you know what? I want to get rid of it all! Why? Because I realize that it's not free at all. We're all paying for it. We pay for it every time the government has to bail out another bank, we pay for it through hidden taxes (Every time the government takes out another loan, it decreases the value of our money. Guess who gets hit hardest by that? The poor!), we pay for it through direct taxes, we pay for it in loss of liberty, we pay for it with our health,....

DWB

It's quite nice. It's a slow paced life. Sort of like living in the Florida Keys but with the police watching you 24/7.

Outside of Brazil, best sex I've ever had was in Cuba. Had so much crazy sex down there it just doesn't even make sense. Even fucked deaf sisters.

However, crime is on the rise and it's not as safe as it once was. And the cat and mouse games with the police does get old. You can't just freely walk around with a Cuban girl.

I think Jim Gunn has some great stories about Havana from way back in the day.

u-Bob

Who said we want the American system? The no real difference between the American corporatist system and communism. The real alternative is the free market.

fatfoo

Hello. I agree that wealth has a lot to do with constructions. If you want to live in a house built just for you, you can get hammer, nails and pieces of wood to build the house yourself. Otherwise, you rely on a house someone else built. This is why I like the symbol of the hammer, axe, drill, paintbrush or other tools.

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Phoenix

they should have to pay for their schooling...i had to pay for every dime
i got student loans out the wazzoo...then porn helped me pay them all back..lol

anyway, i dont agree with a lot of government policies...but smashing shit up isnt going to do anything. how about marching on the home of the lying politician, arresting him.
then maybe people can learn to keep their word

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DVTimes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11839386

The Metropolitan Police Commissioner has said "the game has changed" in policing protests and is expecting "more disorder on our streets".

Sir Paul Stephenson's comments come the day after the second mass student protest was held over tuition fees.

He was cross examined on Thursday by the Metropolitan Police Authority.

A police report found the numbers attending the march on 10 November were significantly under-estimated by police and the National Union of Students.

Student activists criticised the "heavy handed brutality" of London's police during Wednesday's protests.

The Education Activist Network (EAN), which helped organised that protest, also said a follow-up day of action is being planned for next Tuesday, billing it as a national student strike.

'Crime scene'

Sir Paul said that "the bottom line is we didn't get it right two weeks ago, and in my opinion we did get it right [on Wednesday]".

The Commissioner also admitted that the police made mistakes during the demonstrations earlier this month, which led to a riot at the Conservative Party's headquarters on Millbank in central London.

He added that, in the future "we are going to be much more cautious. We are into a different period I am afraid. We will be putting far more assets in place to ensure we can respond properly. Essentially the game has changed".

The controversial decision to contain demonstrators - so-called kettling - on Whitehall on the latest protest was reached, he said, because of intelligence that some protesters were intending to try to occupy the Liberal Democrats headquarters on nearby Cowley Street.

Sir Paul acknowledged that letting people out from the cordon last night was "frustratingly slow" but "water and toilets were requested and delivered".

He said: "It was a crime scene. We let out vulnerable people... we took off our helmets to calm people down."

Britain's most senior police officer also said that his force "will be making greater use of social networking sites" such as Twitter and Facebook prior to demonstrations in the future.

This is because many of those participating in both protests used Facebook and Twitter to organise themselves in advance.

Protest 'denied'

Sir Paul said there were 35 arrests connected to Wednesday's protest in London. Nine of those were in connection with damage caused to a police van that was left in the middle of the demonstration.

Seven police officers were injured, with two requiring hospital treatment.

The student protests in London a fortnight ago saw protesters storming Conservative Party, throwing missiles at police and resulted in more than 40 officers being injured.

BBC home affairs correspondent, Danny Shaw said the report into that protest says Scotland Yard significantly under-estimated the number of demonstrators - about 25,000 people took part.

The review by Commander Simon Pountain says intelligence gathered beforehand suggested there would be no disorder and that the trouble that did occur involved students with no history of violence.

Our correspondent said the report's "key finding" was that the focus of the rioting - Tory HQ at Millbank - had not been identified by police as a vulnerable location.

It added that not enough police were deployed to protect the building and there were not enough officers in reserve.

A statement from the EAN was critical of the police's tactics in London.

It said: "In London the heavy handed brutality of the police force denied thousands the right to protest. Police saw fit to kettle students as young as 14 for hours on end in the cold. They were prevented from handing a letter to Nick Clegg.

"A Downing Street rally - for which Scotland Yard's permission had been sought and received by the Education Activist Network - was arbitrarily banned at the last minute by the police, who charged the waiting crowd on horseback."

The statement also said that Wednesday's protests "underlined what November 10 had already shown - there is mass, deep-seated and furious opposition to the government's education cuts.

"The sheer number of walkouts, protests and marches yesterday, from the smallest school to most of Britain's major cities were too numerous for the media to count."

Baton beatings

The BBC's Greg Wood said he saw horseback charges by the police "at the Trafalgar Square end of Whitehall".

Our correspondent added: "Glass bottles and cans of beer were thrown at the police and some arrests were made. Many within the crowd had their faces concealed, and they were pushing against the police line."

Arkady Rose, from London, is mother of 15-year-old Kathy, who was kettled in Wednesday's protests. She said she was proud of her daughter's participation in the protest.

She added: "After all, it's her life and education that's going to be affected by the changes.

"Kathy wasn't released until after 8pm and she says that there were still students younger than her in there, despite the police saying there weren't. She says she saw teenagers of her age being beaten with batons and people who were asking to leave for medical treatment being refused.

"It seems like the kettling started around the time that most students had had enough and were wanting to go home. The police seem to have kept them moving around by changing the story and moving them from exit to exit with the intention of tiring them out.

"There was no food or water, despite what they say. All my daughter managed to eat all day was a bag of Minstrels."

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redwhiteandblue

Can't believe people are actually taking Numbnuts seriously in this thread.

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DVTimes

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u-Bob

you don't need a degree to sing or to teach people to sing

DVTimes

Then undere your argument kids should have to pay for school, the elderly should pay for the police to come out if they are robbed.... and so on.

So basicly your saying only those with money should have a degree.

Lets turn education into a product of value, rather than simply a means to educate yourself and improve your mind.

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DVTimes

We have some of the best music universities in the world.

But your right.

But you do not need to be qualified to operate on somone, though (I suspect you would prefer a qualified person rather than somone who just watched a tv show on it.

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DVTimes

Just to correct you but 'Numbnuts' is the turm often used to name Paul Smith.

Thouh I think you will now see my people are gathering up and soon I shall take mp place.

My people must be patiant.

I bless you all.

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MetaMan

LOL stupid college kids. What makes them all think that their degrees should be worth something?

u-Bob

Schools, colleges, universities are organizations selling a service. Why should they provide that service for free (if they wanted to, that's fine, but you can't force them) or why should all people who just happen to be born inside certain artificial borders be forced to pay so certain people can buy a certain service from a certain organization?

DVTimes

1. I do not drink or indeed take drugs.

2. Can you name which country comunism has been tried in. I think you will find no country has yet applied comunism. Just because they say they are comunist does not mean they are. You say you produce content and websites people want to join, but your the only one who does think that.

3. Yes, its not free in the sense its not paid for. But its free in that it does not matter if your rich or poor, you still access it equally.

4. You say 80% will get well paid jobs. Where is your evidence? Many will be lucky to work in the local bugar bar with the economy as it is. Also why have you turned education into a product? A degree was never a product, it was a means to improve the mind.

By the way Paul, have you not heard of the great people in the UK. Did you know that the chololatear rowntrees macintosh built ho,mes for his staff, and even a pub (he himself did not belive in the drink).

Do you not understand Paul that not everyone belives in greed likew you clearly do.

Do you realy belive that greed is good, only the rich can offord things, let the poor suffer, pollute the planet, rob earth of its resorses. You probably think its ok for animals to die out. Just as long as your ok.

By the way Paul did I get it wrong, but I thought you boasted that you had your cancer treatment on the nhs or its equilivant. And you boasted that you got a disability allowance? So why is it ok for you to take but not others?

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DVTimes

correct


why should a degree be worth somthing?

it should be worth nothing.

you should be able to learn for the enjoyment of simply learning.

so you agree they should not pay.

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DVTimes

they may be selling a service in the usa.

but in the uk they provide a service.

they get the money from the goverment or/and local authorites. The same as the police, fire, army do.

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u-Bob

police = a company selling protection services. The fact that you are forced to buy their services does not change that.

DVTimes

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