New German Internet Indecency Law. Heads Up!

[wasteland]

Hi all,
Just back from the Amsterdam show and, while there, heard a presentation from a German webmaster / content provider about the new law in Germany that requires AVS on all adult sites, including paysites prior to the tour. This is not a hit-and-run adult check verification, but requires the surfer to fax a copy of their driver's license or passport to the webmaster to be granted a password to view the site.

The applies to any and all international and domestic webmasters' websites that can be viewed in Germany (i.e. everyone worldwide). The german "expert" on this that spoke in Amsterdam indicated that non-german webmasters could simply "ignore" this law, but to be prepared to be arrested if entering germany.

As luck would have it, I arrived home and today opened my letter from "Bundesprufstelle Fur Jugendgefardenede Medien" that pretty much read like a "cease and desist" order for having a website accessible in Germany.

here are a few of the more "intersting" quotes from the BPJN letter.....

"Distributors of this content are no longer perrmitted to sell, rent out or even present this object or to broadcast it on the internet. The same goes for advertising the content. Violations of these restrictions will be punished under German jursidiction."

"The spreading of pornographic content and other harmful media via the internet is a criminal offense under German jurisdiction."

Also of interest, I received this letter at my Concord, Massachusetts PO box, certified mail, signature required.


Anyone have more information on this?

Best Regards,
Colin at Wasteland.com

[doober]

pretty fucked up, how can they expect people to not make their site accesible in germany ?
A lil birdiie told me that Sleazydream is banned from Germany lol

whatever, i say fuck em

[andi_germany]

GeoIP and block Germany but it sucks as Germany is the 2. best adult market behind the US.

[adjektiv]

Bush did this he is eroding our freedoms!
Oops nevermind.

[Nysus]

Interesting. Though what's to say someone doesn't use a fake id or stolen ID.. or dad's ID.. Really doesn't get everyone out, and it's pretty unreasonable to expect millions of people daily to give their info out.

Cheers,
Matt

[chupacabra]

wasteland, you received an actual certified letter from the German authorities just because you run a website accessible from that locale?! theres no way they are going to pay for certified mail deliveries to *every* paysite admin on the web i wouldn't think..!

[Mr.Fiction]

Germany has had a law like that for years - it has no reach inside the United States.

However, George W. Bush and John A-s-h-c-r-o-f-t want to make porn illegal in the United States as well and they will not do anything to protect free speech in America. With Bush in office, who knows what would happen if Germany decided they wanted to extradite some American webmasters.

Once Bush is gone in November, the world will be a better place.

[chupacabra]

The applies to any and all international and domestic webmasters' websites that can be viewed in Germany (i.e. everyone worldwide). The german "expert" on this that spoke in Amsterdam indicated that non-german webmasters could simply "ignore" this law, but to be prepared to be arrested if entering germany.

also, how on earth are they going to have German customs tabulate the names of every webmaster so these arrests can be carried out when crossing their borders..?!

[Corleone]

they're crazy

[SleazyDream]

germany bad

[cayne]

Originally posted by andi_germany
GeoIP and block Germany but it sucks as Germany is the 2. best adult market behind the US.

yeah, blocking the traffic isn't the best idea..

[Fatrik]

Yes Colin I was also at the seminar at Amsterdam. Bad news to hear you received a letter allready :-(

As I understand there are even more laws to come also in UK?

[Elli]

Originally posted by chupacabra
also, how on earth are they going to have German customs tabulate the names of every webmaster so these arrests can be carried out when crossing their borders..?!

They don't need to catch them all, just enough to prove the point that they're serious. Once a few arrests have been made, are you willing to try to enter Germany and take the chance that they might grab you?

[JFK]

Good Luck Colin, nice seeing you in Amsterdam

[JOKER]

Here we go again...


If anyone is interested in a serious workaround / solution for germany let me know and I'll get things going with our local lawyer office.

As to any law there is a workaround for it.

This is rediculous,germany is really making an ass out of themselves somehow.

Thanx for your attention.

You can contact me via email at joker (AT) jokerempire . com

Or ICQ 98941282 (expect a delay,always pretty busy on icq.)


Take care,
JOKER - Steve

[wasteland]

chupacabra:

yep. real live certified letter. signature required.

here it is:
http://wasteland.com/bpjm/german-letter.jpg

colin

[chupacabra]

Originally posted by wasteland
chupacabra:

yep. real live certified letter. signature required.

here it is:
http://wasteland.com/bpjm/german-letter.jpg

colin

all i can say is "wow"... do you run a site that would have attracted the attention of the German authorities for some reason? i'm wondering how many more of these letters have been sent out, anyone else receive one today..?

[latinasojourn]

perhaps someone should inform the good people in nazi land that there already is a solution in place that actually works.

german parents (or anyone who is sensitive to what websites are available to them) can merely setup content filtering in their browser.

responsible webmasters already should have their sites listed with ICRA. if you don't, do it now.

the truth is, this system actually works.

and just so you know the culture.

the good folks who gave us hitler and the mercedes benz love the most bizarre and kinky porn in the whole world, and produce much of it.

the krauts produce the highest quality fetish shit on this planet. it ain't my thing personally, and i wouldn't touch that shit with a ten foot pole, but that's the truth.

[brutus]

Any links to actual law text ?
Sounds that the law have good possibilities to get challenged at some level...

[wasteland]

chupacabra:
our site is bondage and fetish. artsy stuff.
www.wasteland.com
been up since 1995 in some form or other and has been heavily sold in germany since 1997.

as fetish is one of germany's national pastime's, i'm a bit surprised myself. not really a hardcore sex sit at all but a community-based site forr the bdsm and fetish community.......

[eroswebmaster]

land of the free my ass!

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by brutus
Any links to actual law text ?
Sounds that the law have good possibilities to get challenged at some level...

Challenged by who? They don't have a First Amendment in Germany - that's the same country that bans books if they don't agree with the politics (Nazi).

[JOKER]

Originally posted by latinasojourn
perhaps someone should inform the good people in nazi land that there already is a solution in place that actually works.

german parents (or anyone who is sensitive to what websites are available to them) can merely setup content filtering in their browser.

responsible webmasters already should have their sites listed with ICRA. if you don't, do it now.

the truth is, this system actually works.

and just so you know the culture.

the good folks who gave us hitler and the mercedes benz love the most bizarre and kinky porn in the whole world, and produce much of it.

the krauts produce the highest quality fetish shit on this planet. it ain't my thing personally, and i wouldn't touch that shit with a ten foot pole, but that's the truth.

Could you please stick to the subject,as it's serious enough not to drift into some racistic namecalling just for shits n giggles.


Germany is a serious market $$ wise,so please stop making a smartass out of yourself and bring something to the table that actually helps to resolve this issue.

-----------------------------------

Ontopic:

Icra is a good thing,but wont help to get around the german law...

Same goes for Content-filter.


Thanx,
JOKER

[Michaelious]

the whole situation seems bizarre to me, in one end u have germany being xero tolerant (well near enough) and then you have denmark (i think its denmark) that tolerates peadophiles as long as they dont actualy commit a sexual offence. Europe is just way weird (altho I'm from Scotland so technically I'm part of it).

[punker barbie]

Holly Crap this is a very serious issue and will effect many people......

[AgentCash]

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...tid=158&tid=99

Taking bets on who will be the first U.S. webmaster extradited to Germany...

[AWC]

just send those fuckers to a dialer

[Rich]

Stupid politicians. Don't they realize how much more simple it would be to make content filters mandatory on German ISPs, rather then trying to shut down pornographers from all over the world?

[dantheman]

hey colin, good to see you around and about. Looking forward to seeing you in florida this summer.

[chupacabra]

this is a really surprising turn of events. i feel for any webmasters who actually reside within Germany... noone likes to live in fear..

[wimpy]

I got that letter back in 97 or so. Sig required.

I would not enter EU via Germany, but once you're in the EU, you can cross borders all you want, right? Just don't attract any attention.

not that I plan to visit Germany. Fuck 'em, I spend my tourist dollars right here.

[BigPinPin]

Fuck Germany, i am happy that i left this fucking country.
Give a shit on this country and produce more and more pages in German....for germany lol and fuck the German Goverment, they can do nothing....

[johndoebob]

The german laws ragarding to porn are that you aren't allowed to show hardcore on any public accesable pages.I have no problems with that.The bjpm are retards and are sending letters to foreign webmasters.When the new laws will come and how they will look like is not sure yet.But when everything comes like it looks atm I'm going to sell all my german websites when everything comes like it looks now,but I'm sad to loose such a big market because international dialer solutions aren't the way to go and the germans aren't big credit card users.

[xato]

ok the site's been up since 1995 and once you came back from amsterdam you received a letter??
bad luck or maybe you gave someone wrong your card...

anyways, fuck the germans. hypocrits.

[wasteland]

we actually got a similar letter in 1997 (around the same time the german governnment indicted the CEO of Comupserve, Germany for allowing porn on their system), but at that time, it was coming from some "lady's sewing circle against porn group", so i tossed it.....;)

btw, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't the german telco's just ban dialers?

colin

[JOKER]

Originally posted by wasteland

btw, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't the german telco's just ban dialers?

colin

No,they made a law that you have to register the dialers with the authorities and that they have to type in "OK" or "JA" at least 3 times to confirm they really want to use the dialer.

Not too big of a problem,our dialer still goes strong and is legit


You might remember Uwe & Manfred from CCL Germany from conventions...

Thats us


Take care,
Steve

[Jman]

Originally posted by wasteland
Hi all,
Just back from the Amsterdam show and, while there, heard a presentation from a German webmaster / content provider about the new law in Germany that requires AVS on all adult sites, including paysites prior to the tour. This is not a hit-and-run adult check verification, but requires the surfer to fax a copy of their driver's license or passport to the webmaster to be granted a password to view the site.

The applies to any and all international and domestic webmasters' websites that can be viewed in Germany (i.e. everyone worldwide). The german "expert" on this that spoke in Amsterdam indicated that non-german webmasters could simply "ignore" this law, but to be prepared to be arrested if entering germany.

As luck would have it, I arrived home and today opened my letter from "Bundesprufstelle Fur Jugendgefardenede Medien" that pretty much read like a "cease and desist" order for having a website accessible in Germany.

here are a few of the more "intersting" quotes from the BPJN letter.....

"Distributors of this content are no longer perrmitted to sell, rent out or even present this object or to broadcast it on the internet. The same goes for advertising the content. Violations of these restrictions will be punished under German jursidiction."

"The spreading of pornographic content and other harmful media via the internet is a criminal offense under German jurisdiction."

Also of interest, I received this letter at my Concord, Massachusetts PO box, certified mail, signature required.


Anyone have more information on this?

Best Regards,
Colin at Wasteland.com

Colin, that is surely some interesting comments. I myself have been discussing these issues with the guys at coolspot.

If you know Mickeal or Validus you should hit them up... I beleive that they are the Number one AVS in Germany.

Damn get arrested if entering Germany... Would not want that to happen to me...

So basically if you want to travel to germany Hook up a nice geo target script to filter all your german traffic and send to proper german sponsors???

[Steve]

German surfers = $$$$

I love Ze Germans

[BV]

I was just in Frankfurt, Germany last week and they had free XXX hard core porno previews on the TV in the hotel room I was at, just like in the Nederlands.

[Werner D.G. von Otto]

we are only following orders

[waterboy]

Are there any inherent issues with German porn consumers using proxy servers to access porn??

[chupacabra]

Originally posted by waterboy
Are there any inherent issues with German porn consumers using proxy servers to access porn??

well, aside from the speed issues inherent w/ some proxy servers, i doubt that would keep the webmaster in the clear from a legal aspect in German courts..

[brutus]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Challenged by who? They don't have a First Amendment in Germany - that's the same country that bans books if they don't agree with the politics (Nazi).

Challenge at EU level... They are touching free internal markets principle, ok a bit different thing as this thins have also social viewpoint ... but basicly as I work from another EU coutry and my business is legal... they cant stop me doing my business by county specific law... especially within EU. They cant even restrict me marketing my business to germany. *have to remember that social issue... but it might be weak on this kind of case.

[rumbalotte]

Hey Guys,
I'm pleased that some of you listened to my explantations concerning the f.... german law in amsterdam and I'm really sad that my promises took place to quickly.
Be sure that not all german people do understand decisions of polititians which have be elected not by them.... but we have to live with them and it is even quite more difficult if you are living inside this beautiful land than abroad, believe me.
Anyway, if you feel unsure about all these complications and how to deal with them feel free to contact the people at www.porntraffic.nl, as they are always informed about the present changes of situations in germany and how to get traffic out of there.
There is a large market which law tries to close but this could be your chance to enter this really interesting market!

[BigPinPin]

Originally posted by JMan
Colin, that is surely some interesting comments. I myself have been discussing these issues with the guys at coolspot.

If you know Mickeal or Validus you should hit them up... I beleive that they are the Number one AVS in Germany.

Damn get arrested if entering Germany... Would not want that to happen to me...

So basically if you want to travel to germany Hook up a nice geo target script to filter all your german traffic and send to proper german sponsors???

YOU SUCK MAN...FUCK COOLSPOT.....This Company works against the whole Adultbiz you stupid Idiot....everybody in Germany knows it and they dont even reply more...all they do and want is to force webmaster BY LAW to use their stupid Idiot fucking system AVS.......

Their system sucks and no one will ever change this....

Go home and suck coolspots................

[Giorgio_Xo]

I don't think it would hold internationally. Foreign webmasters have a right to sell into Germany. The threshold for proof of age is standard and has passed judicial muster, i.e. ownership of a credit card.

[zzgundamnzz]

Glad I don't live in Germany so fuck their fucked up laws. But I will miss the surfers from the fatherland. They made me money in the past.

[milchheaper]

Originally posted by wasteland
chupacabra:

yep. real live certified letter. signature required.

here it is:
http://wasteland.com/bpjm/german-letter.jpg

colin

i'm no longer asking myself where taxes wasted here in germany

6.85 euro.. that is what i pay for church tax for 18 days..

m.

[Alex Xe]

Originally posted by wasteland
Hi all,
Just back from the Amsterdam show and, while there, heard a presentation from a German webmaster / content provider about the new law in Germany that requires AVS on all adult sites, including paysites prior to the tour. This is not a hit-and-run adult check verification, but requires the surfer to fax a copy of their driver's license or passport to the webmaster to be granted a password to view the site.

The applies to any and all international and domestic webmasters' websites that can be viewed in Germany (i.e. everyone worldwide). The german "expert" on this that spoke in Amsterdam indicated that non-german webmasters could simply "ignore" this law, but to be prepared to be arrested if entering germany.

As luck would have it, I arrived home and today opened my letter from "Bundesprufstelle Fur Jugendgefardenede Medien" that pretty much read like a "cease and desist" order for having a website accessible in Germany.

here are a few of the more "intersting" quotes from the BPJN letter.....

"Distributors of this content are no longer perrmitted to sell, rent out or even present this object or to broadcast it on the internet. The same goes for advertising the content. Violations of these restrictions will be punished under German jursidiction."

"The spreading of pornographic content and other harmful media via the internet is a criminal offense under German jurisdiction."

Also of interest, I received this letter at my Concord, Massachusetts PO box, certified mail, signature required.


Anyone have more information on this?

Best Regards,
Colin at Wasteland.com

I also listen about this news on Amsterdam Show, but if you do not get any letters for each website i think possible ignore this without any problems in future. It is really crazy law and i do not undestand how goverment of Germany want to control this things.

[Oh Sheila]

Originally posted by JOKEREMPIRE
Here we go again...

exactly