he's right. i have some quirky habits i do that don't make sense on the surface.

another thing is how many deals can get done in the early hours too. that was another lesson i learned, from a boss when i was a teen, he was teaching me how to sell via cold calls. a lot of business can get done between 8-10am. a lot.

You fail to recognize the obvious. Society can not force people to be successful.

Nobody said they could. But once again you've bought the Republican Kool-Aid 100%. Its either successful people pulling themselves up from their boot straps or lazy no good takers. Theres a middle ground. Maybe some people just want to live a comfortable life and do not want to be millionaires, or don't care. They're happy working a 40 hours a week job and raising their 2 kids. With bowling night every Friday. Being home to eat dinner with their kids and helping with the homework. Saving up for that once in a lifetime trip to Hawaii. What's wrong with that? They work hard also. Thats the problem with the above graphic. It's becoming harder and harder to achieve. Because the more and more wealth that goes to the 1%, the more it's hoarded and not filtering back into the economy.

It's not that black and white. And I don't drink Kool-Aid. The majority of people do live the kind of life you describe. Unemployment may be at 10%. That means that 90% are working and paying their mortgages, taking vacations, getting a new car every 3 years.

And for that group of people, they are successful. They live the life they want. If the government didn't need 35+% of their income in taxes they would have more to spend.

But those aren't the people we are talking about. It's that lower group. The entitlement mentality. People who feel that they are owed more. People who buy things they don't need and can't afford. And that group is growing.

Eat the rich

But that is the point. Wealth is being concentrated so the less able to fight for their slice of the pie are going to get hit the hardest. I know this goes against the Conservative mantra but that is who needs help the most. The social safety net benefits them the most. The good news is it is actually cheap on a per person basis to support that system versus spend on the jails/security etc to keep them down. This model has been proven over and over.

After WWII we had very high taxes on the wealthy and it flattened our pyramid shape for wealth distribution. It was one of our golden eras of productivity growth.

Being an industrial/manufacturing powerhouse didn't hurt either.

And the 1% does not spend if they have more to spend. They save. You're preaching trickle down economics again and it's been proven time and again not to work.

You're living in this fantasy world where the wealthy are a group of benefactors and employment creators. While the middle class is being squeezed out by a bunch of lazy entitled takers.

Are you actually advocating a lower tax rate for the 1%?

And why were we that? A huge educated middle class who were educated for free. The add in the GI bill and we paid for a lot of free college and helped with home ownership which shortly there after was the highest in the free world. All on the backs of. 90% tax bracket for the highest earners and decent inheritance tax to break it up upon death. They were able to expand on the industrial revolution at the turn of the century that was caused by being a mineral rich country that was one of the first to educate everyone equally for free.

We can believe the American dream happened in a vacuum but it was helped by other factors. In 1800 the big discussion as to who was going to be the strongest country in the new world had the USA or Argentina.

http://www.shsu.edu/~eco_mwf/animal1.jpg

:stoned

ADG

Very intelligent posts. One sarcastic argument though. The weathly are employment creators; in China.

Nothing sarcastic about the truth. The sad truth.

Some of the posts here are so strange to me.

I was raised to kick ass, take names, and move ahead. That's what I did...and it worked.

It's always worked.

If there is a smaller middle class today it's because of a different sense of entitlement amongst our society (you can see it in the posts in this thread). The "Middle Class" just don't have the same work ethic.

People imagine that wealth is some sort of "pie" and the rich have all the pie.
Bullshit.

Money comes and money goes. But the cream ALWAYS rises to the top. If you haven't, then you need to change your work habits and make it work for you.

I wasn't raised to think like some of you...I listened to my grandfather and he was 100% right.
Those of you thinking that it's the "evil" rich "holding you down" are the ones who are never going to be rich.

While I will agree that desire and work ethic are a big part of it, there are other factors.

Take for example wages. The year I was born (1971) the average wage in the US was $6,497 per year. That works out to about $37,465 in 2013 dollars. The average wage in 2013 is $44,321. This means in 42 years the actual average wage has only gone up $6,856. That works out to about $163 per year or an average of about 8 cents per hour per year.

Now you can attribute this to many things. Lazy could be one of them. Another could simply be that more people are now pursuing liberal arts degrees than applied science degrees so there are fewer people moving into some of the higher paying jobs. Another very real factor is that many of the good paying manufacturing jobs have moved out of the country and have been replaced with lower paying service and retail jobs.

At the same time this has happened the cost of the average house in the US has gone through the roof. Let's look at the median house price. In 1971 it was $25,200 which is the equivalent of $135,769 in 2010 dollars, however the median price of a house in 2010 was $221,800, down from $246K in 2006. So while wages have gone up about 8 cents per hour per year, the cost of hosing has gone up $1.02 per hour over the last 42 years.

Add into this the crazy cost of healthcare, education and other things and what you have is a middle class that now has more debt then ever before. They have less disposable income and if something bad happens (major illness, job loss) it can bankrupt them and send them into poverty. They may well end up getting another job and making their way out of it, but they could easily end up in poverty for a few years while they do this.

At its best the middle class is weaker than it has ever been. Is this because of the evil rich people? Not really. You could argue that a company moving its jobs offshore to make a little extra profit isn't great, but in the end I blame credit and the middle classes hunger to use it. As credit became more and more available people started buying bigger houses, cars, toys etc than ever before. In the past they were not able to afford these things, but now they can do it no problem because they can have 5,6 even 7 years to pay a car loan and 30 or 40 years for a mortgage. Every company seems to have a credit card and banks offer all kinds of loans so people buy these things and not only are they putting themselves in debt, they are driving the market on many of these things up so even those people who want to live within their means have a harder time doing it.

Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent here. What I am getting at is that is that I agree with you. The cream rises to the top. Most people don't have the drive, ability, courage or knowledge to build a successful business. However, the way our system is developing it is becoming harder and harder to just get a good job and live a normal middle class life.

kane, you're talking about "wages"...so right there you're talking about worker bees.

Whole different breed there. Those people are NEVER going anywhere in life.

My grandfather told me: "Son, you'll never make any money working for somebody else". And I listened.

But IF I did...I wouldn't work for the minimum wage for very long. Again, hard work and intelligence. Just because a minimum wage is STARTING pay, doesn't mean it has to be ENDING pay.

The cream always rises. Doesn't matter if it's working for McDonalds or working for Google...the smart and hard working guy with drive & ambition will rise to the top anywhere he is at.
But he'll still be working for somebody else in the end.

The TRULY driven and ambitious people are the ones who take the risk and leave that guaranteed salary behind.

The us govt should just kill imports and force everyone to buy American. They should also kill all foreign websites, keep it the us 100% internal.

Great way to keep money and jobs in the us. But then all those people crying about inequality, let's see what their quality of life is.

It's not the rich eating the world. The world is eating itself. Capitalization and globalization are leaving some behind. The usa's losses are gains for other countries like china.

As time goes on, everyone wants everything for less. People are trained not to pay for anything. People "spend" less and low quality jobs are outsourced, replaced by algorithms, or automated.

It's not a tax issue. It's not unfairness, and the government can't fix it without seriously manipulating the market.

How many of the lowest class showed up to Walmart to but a Chinese tv for $50 on Black Friday.... By far the most representative example of the problem in my eyes...

True. Short of becoming a CEO or getting very lucky and getting in on the ground floor of a company that gives out huge stock options then goes public and makes you rich, working for someone else will never get you rich. It just doesn't work that way. I have always been someone who works hard and tries to move up. In the past when I have worked at different jobs I have been promoted quickly and often left those jobs for better ones when they didn't pay me what I thought I was worth. Most people don't have that attitude.

However, rich people need many happy worker bees in order for them to stay rich. They either need them to work for them or they need them to buy their product they are selling (or both).

If we allow the middle class to crash and burn and we end up like some third world shithole country there becomes fewer and fewer people to sell stuff to and it makes it even harder to rise to the top. As I said in an earlier post, I think the separation of wealth we have this country right now is fine. There is still a good sized middle class and there is still plenty of opportunity for those who wish to work for it.

What we must be wary of is is destroying that middle class so we become one of those countries where there are a tiny number of rich people and almost everyone else is dirty poor.

The middle class wants cheap products. The middle class wants shit for free. The middle class wants something for nothing. The middle class doesn't want to go out of their way to pay more for American sourced goods, services if they can get it for cheaper elsewhere...

So you know what happens... Corporations become as efficient as possible providing those needs. And the middle gets their cheap products and services, but they also get squeezed.

I would argue that the middle class will overpay for things if they think they are cool and you let them make payments on it.

Look at big SUVs. Most people that have them don't need that kind of vehicle and will never use the four wheel drive or the power it has, but they think they are cool and since everyone else has one, they will happily overpay for it. The same with houses. How many people have bought bigger houses than they need? I personally know several people that bought McMansions just because they thought it was cool.

Oh yeah Americans will go out of their way to overpay just because. Yup, totally.

You should talk to Tim cook. Americans will pay 3-5x as much for an iPad or computer. They'll pay $2k for an iPad vs $500 for a Chinese made one.

Speaking of which did you just reply on your American sourced computer? I'm replying on my Chinese made iPhone...

Welcome to reality.

lol, I'm pretty sure most if not all of my parts are sourced from somewhere. Although it does have an intel board and processor and some of those are made in the US, but others are not.

I also agree that they want cheap things as well. The same person that will not blink when spending $40K on an SUV will stand in line for three hours to save $50 on a TV.

I think that it's political.

It's way for the Democrat Party to consolidate power by dividing the country. A "populist" movement. It's been done before. And the country falls for it hook, line, and sinker every time.

It gets pulled out by one of the major political parties every few decades.

In the end the "Class Warfare" card will run out of steam as people realize it's a bunch of b.s.

As I said earlier...wealth is not a "thing" that some people are hoarding.

"Wealth" is something YOU achieve in life. There are no limits to what you can do...except for what the govt. limits you to.

Look at the old school "robber barons" like JP Morgan. There was no income tax in the U.S. in his time. And the govt. wasn't the richest thing on the planet back then either. Matter of fact HE used to loan the U.S. govt. money to keep it afloat.

These days people bitch and moan that Walmart profited 15.7 billion dollars in 2012...but the Federal Govt. spends more than that in just 2 days!

Want to know who the "evil" entity is that has all the "wealth".
Washington D.C.
And they didn't do a goddamn thing to earn it. They just fucking take it! :(

Intel is a us company, you sure they don't manufacture a ton of their shit from china or other 3rd world countries???

This is not on the rich or taxes, this is on people wanting cheap shit, and the world moving in that direction.

Income inequality is up, but now you can get a lot more for a lot less. In the end that's the trade off the middle class wants and received over the last 30 years.

I was going to use my own walmart example..

Walmart blew up because everything is cheap.

Then people complain they don't pay their employees enough.

So people want shit for the lowest cost possible, encourage and buy into this model, and then wonder why the same corporate entity just doesn't pay their employees more out of the goodness of their heart and says it's not fair, while likely continuing to shop there?

Yep, walmarts fault.

I know that they make some of their stuff in the US because a friend of mine works for them and they have a manufacturing plant at the campus he works at. Still, likely, most of their stuff is likely made in 3rd world countries.

The divide is getting bigger because the 1% influence law and policy making them richer and the rest of us poorer. They use 'our' tax money for their benefit.

They also get away with paying very little (and sometimes none) taxes which amounts to $billions that are not part of the country's wealth and for the benefit of each citizen. Greedy bastards. If they did pay taxes their lifestyle wouldn't be all that different.

Do people that work hard deserve to be rich? Sure!

Do people who prefer to be lazy deserve to be poor? Sure?

It's not that simple though.

We don't hate the 1% because they worked hard and made money. We hate them because we are struggling and they are finding ways to fuck us even more.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

So I am sitting here looking at my property tax bill(s) this morning for my company. It's not pretty.
I can officially tell you that the 1% is paying more. Along with that, section 179 deductions are going away in 2014. Does any of this affect the .1%? The answer is probably not.
Does it affect the 1%. Yes it does. So you can enjoy the rest of your day, I can promise I will be paying more in 2014 and the way it appears, considerably more.

I am probably in your boat in that I am well off. Probably just shy of a 1% depending on what metric is used. The cream will rise as always. The rich aren't holding anyone down etc.

We just have a system that would be better if we paid as we go. Our generation got the big safety net and the free education. Our folks paid for it in higher taxes on the wealthy. Our kids got the same thing and we did not pay for it. We got the Reagan era tax system. We got a free ride. It is not right to our kids.

We can blame run away spending etc. But the fact that tax collections as a percent of GDP have been historically low in the US is a problem. Growth never went back to post WWII levels. Trickle down didn't work. The rich were supopsed ot use that extra cash to create jobs and instead it went overseas.

I am ok with the world being the marketplace but then we still need to pay our bills. This sort of depends on how much you like your kids as we will more then likely be dead or close to it when the shit hits the fan.

the cream does not always rise to the top.

that's not a law or rule of nature by any stretch of the imagination.

When people start talking about the division of wealth in the US two things come to mind for me.

Who's fault is it?

And Get some!

If you cant figure it out then keep complaining. I have work to do.

As Bill Gates said he is past worrying about the toilet paper bill. You have the money to support a decent lifestyle and these extra taxes probably will not even be noticed on the day to day level. Take 4% out of someones paycheck who is making 30k a year and they will notice it. Worse the economy will notice it as they typically spend 100% of their income and now they will have less income.

Is it fair the rich pay more? I doubt it but it does make for a better society according to history.

Very interesting thread!

That's what many conservatives argue. That the rich will create more jobs and their money will find its way back to the economy but as you said above ... nope.

Good lord, you're like Alex P Keaton. You're probably typing away with a framed picture of the second coming Ronald Reagan hanging over your work desk.

Nobody said you didn't work hard and nobody said the cream doesn't rise or any other young Republican analogy you can come up with. If you work hard and work smart you'll make a lot of money. There are definite barriers of entry but for the most part anyone in this country can still work hard and be very successful. And that's great. But that wasn't what this thread was even about.

It's about the widening gap of income inequality in this country and is it bad for the economy. And yes, it is very bad. You need a strong middle class and working class to have a sustainable prosperous economy. YOU need the middle class to purchase memberships to CM. You can have the greatest work ethic in the world but if your customer base doesn't have any expendable income you're fucked.

I will never understand why people vote (and in this case preach) against their own interests. From your previous posts I can assume you do well, but I can also infer that you are not in the top tenth of 1%. It only benefits you if that top % pays a higher capital gains tax and in turn the middle class gets a tax break. It only benefits you if the minimum wage is increased and the working poor have more disposable income. They buy your products and services.

On a day to day level,you are right. However, the state is not willing to let me pay this on a day to day level. The best they will do is let us split it into two pieces. Dec 31st and June 31st. So today I get to write a 6 figure check and mail it out. Keep in mind,this is just property tax. Income tax for the fiscal year is another issue. I have a 4 page report from the accountants to digest before I can comment on that.

I suppose I should feel some joy in that this additional amount is going to be spent wisely by the government and that people in the less fortunate category will benefit.

I also mentioned big changes in section 179. Don't ignore that. These are significant and will directly impact how small companies do business in the near term. And I already know that it won't be good for the economy. We have until the end of 2014 to invest as much as possible in new equipment. And then it ends. 2015 is going to be interesting, and not in a good way.

I agree that changing section 179 was a dumb idea. Obama gave you a break, and now it ends. I tend to think that consistency is better for the economy then anything else the govt does.

Property taxes are not indexed to your wealth but ore a percentage of the value of the real estate. Not sure what your complaint is? All commercial property in your area pays the same mill rate. Rich and not so rich.

I also own warehouses and wrote big checks. It is the price of ownership. At least we just support schools and roads versus bombs and food stamps with the money.

Bush actually initiated the 179 depreciation schedules, and without them the manufacturing economy would've never come back. It would've been cheaper to just expand purchases in China. Obama is simply taking them away. Keeps with the current theme of more taxes.

Commercial and industrial buildings in our state are assessed by the state treasury department. You are correct that the MIL rate is the same in the city, but the assessment value isn't even close. My industrial buildings took a much larger tax hit than my home.