Firstly, I normally don't post in drama threads and prefer to mind my own business... but something here seems awfully fishy.

This to me is a HUGE red flag despite the endless he-said she-said.

Honestly, its usually newbies that post these types of threads because they either don't understand, or don't care how to properly do business. We've all done it but we shouldn't.

I don't know Mark very well, but from what I do know, him and his business is good. I'm sure that this situation has been blown of of proportion by someone who thought they were going to make buckets of money and didn't.

I'm more curious where the fraud was coming from. Best of luck to all.

Dayum....

....dat's COLD BLOOODDDEEED

Sorry to hear:)

Yes, I am a newbie to the webcam business, otherwise I would have known better to avoid doing business with 2Much. I am definitely not a newbie to the online business, and have been dealing with credit card processing since 1998, so I know all about reserves, fraud filters, etc.. The only difference is on my other businesses, I have full control of my checkout pages, as in knowing what IP's are using it, checking for names, ISP's, items purchased, passwords and user names provided, email addreses, etc. before the transaction even goes to my processor. With 2Much, I was not given any of those options, just wing it and hope they catch the fraud. As to where the fraud is coming from, I have a very generic webcam domain which gets most traffic from direct browser type-ins, so it could be that there was a disproportianately high amount of foreigh traffic, mainly from Romania, Vietnam, and Indonesia. If I had the tools, I would have blocked access to those countries altogether.

Blown out of proportion? OK, you know what, I would love to hear from one of Mark's satisfied customers who have the same deal I had, and are actually making money (by making money I mean more than $1,000 per month net). If his system is so good, he's sure to have a few satisfied customers, isn't he?

Let me just summarize my experience with 2Much here so other newbies like me would not fall into the same trap that I did:

1) Webmaster buys a 2Much license for $4,100 up front (I actually got a bargain of $6,000 for 3 domains) - 2Much just made $4,100-$6,000.
2) Webmaster pays $125/month for "customer care" and hosting - 2Much will make $1,500 a year for hosting.
3) Webmaster pays $70 per month to use 2Much ccbill subaccount or gets their own (btw CCBill dos not charge for subaccounts, so that $70 is 100% profit) - 2Much makes $840 more per year.
4) Webmaster gets a standard very basic and ugly looking template (sorry Mark, it's true), and if he/she wants the site to look presentable, much more money is needed to customize the templates (I spent $4,000 with a separate designer). The templates probably haven't been updated since 1997, and are very hard to configure. Each page uses different variables names for the same parameter, so you have to spend days going through each variable to make sure it's the correct one for that page. Anything but user friendly.
5) Webmaster waits 2 to 3 weeks after the template design and configuration is done to get their site online and get billing set up.
6) Webmaster recruits models, and inputs them into the system or he/she can use 2Much models for a percentage of the sale the model generates. The only problem is there are many times not a single 2Much model is online, and the most I ever saw on were like 5, some of whom didn't even speak English. Another pipe dream, thinking that a new webmaster will have a head start with using Mbase models.
7) Webmaster buys traffic or a has a very expensive domain which has type-in traffic.
8) Visitors come to the website, find a couple of models on and leave. Models get hired, try working, make no money and leave.
9) Webmaster realizes it's a hopeless situation and leaves for a better solution that makes much more money on the same traffic and models. Btw, I am very happy with my new back end solution, and I couldn't praise it more. It's everything 2Much isn't, and my biggest mistake was not finding it sooner!
10) 2Much keeps the customer database, earnings for 4 months, and tries to recruit the webmaster's models.
11) 2Much looks for another sucker like me...

Just look at this as a study of the probability of success using the 2Much model, nothing more. I am just sharing my experience with everyone here. Nothing blown out of proportion, no lies, just what really happened to me. Feel free to learn from my costly mistake. Read into it what you like, but yes, this really happened to me with 2Much!

How do they hold 300% of your money? Not following you there. If they owed you $10,000 and they kept $10,000 that would be 100%

I honestly wouldn't be upset if they were holding my money against future chargebacks because I moved the site away from them, stranding my customers who had unused mins. Also not to mention chargebacks that could still come in from transactions you had recently. I would be upset if after the dust settled and they still owed me money but they never sent it.

Your problem wasn't staying too long, it was not asking questions. You say you know what you got into but from your posts here it sounds like you really didn't know how the site worked, how to modify the quality of the feeds, how to opt out of the other girls showing on your site, etc... above and beyond that your biggest problem is your crazy high chargeback rate. If your traffic, where ever that comes from, follows you to your next site (streamates) you will be unhappy with them soon as they likely cancel your account.

Please read my previous post. I also forgot to mention that the $6,000 license fee is lost for ever as well. Oh Streamate knows all about the fraud, and we had a nice laugh about it even going as far as the CCBill checkout page.

As for the 300%. OK, their exposure to fraud is $3800 worst case scenario if not a single purchased minute was used in 6 months, they are keeping $10,000, so it's 263% to be exact (10000/3800).

And you said you knew what you were getting into??? lol. You go on and on about the fees, you didn't know that upfront? It was ok when you wanted to try it but it didn't work out for you and now you bitch about all the fees and profit they make?

you don't get the amount of fraud you got from type in traffic.

If I understand this right, 2much put an extra level of protection in place on top of what ccbill has in place for fraud.... so you think you could have done better than ccbill with fraud if you had the tools. Oh btw, i believe he said you could get your own merchant account and not use theirs, wouldn't you have some control if you were using your own merchant account ?

" Webmaster gets a standard very basic and ugly looking template (sorry Mark, it's true), and if he/she wants the site to look presentable, much more money is needed to customize the templates (I spent $4,000 with a separate designer). " = cost of doing business. You would have had to pay for design no matter what. They provide you with software and if needed models and processing. You provide your own site, correct?

" 7) Webmaster buys traffic or a has a very expensive domain which has type-in traffic. " WTF is that have to do with 2much? are you sure you are not camgirls.com ???

After all of your accusations and bs in this thread when it is obvious to everyone you are in the wrong, 2much should keep the money owed for the bullshit you are causing. Give it time, your new company will be shit canning you soon if you bring the same traffic over to them that was causing you to get all those chargebacks.

I'm done reading your posts, on closing I would like to say your screen name fits you well. :thumbsup you got at least that right!

Accusations, what accusations? I shared what I went through because I wouldn't want the same thing to happen to anyone else. I have no other motive here...

Thanks for the kind words Will. Btw, with my current backend solution (I am not mentioning names on purpose so you don't think I am on some PR mission here) I had 0 costs, yes 0. No monthly fees, no up front fees, no templates to configure, yes they did it for me free because they want a long term business relationship. That's what I call smart business! I'm done too.

PornSiteNEWBIE:

You really need to start watching what you say here because you are only digging yourself deeper into your own hole.

Sorry to disapoint you Leon, but you are wrong again (or maybe you are just lying?)

ALL of the data regarding ALL of your customers and Visitors has always been available to you via the LiveCamNetwork Administrator program. Once again, here is a screenshot for proof:


http://www.2much.net/gfy/customer-ip-address.jpg


Every Sale is also accompanied by a transaction number from CCBill:

http://www.2much.net/gfy/transactionnumbers.jpg

And as everyone here knows, all you had to do was to log in to your CCBill account and look up any purchase that you thought was questionable.


And, just to drive the point home a little further, here is a screen shot of the fraud monitor:

http://www.2much.net/gfy/fraud-monitor.jpg

As you can see it watches for all kinds of parameters (including another dozen not listed here) and flags (makes RED) any purchases that are suspecious (for example, a Customer NEVER spends money on the very first visit to a website. Anything that is RED is considered "suspecious" by our system. You think you know credit card billing? I challenge you to tell me anything I do not know. All you did to me during our last conversation is complain about all the Fraud you had Leon. I am sorry you got ripped off by a credit card scammer but you are flat-out wrong to blame us for it.



Good for you - you have a domain that has type in traffic. Your traffic still did not convert very well, and you still had alot of fraud. CCBill would have gladly blocked any country you wish I'm sure. Did you even once call them? You also could have asked us how to block IP Address ranges but you didn't.


No, you are wrong. You are forgetting the investment I have in my business. I am not "Making" $6000. I am getting a return on my investment. Of course I also have to pay my programmers, my rent, my bandwidth, my servers, my OS licenses, my advertising, my SELF....



And for this we also give you free bandwidth, Free unlimited technical support, Free Software upgrades, free fixes for any HTML errors that you make breaking your template (which we had to fix for you on several occaisions). I apologize if you did not appreciate the deal you were getting.


Leon, by letting you use our sub account, we take a RISK. We are also offering you a service which for whatever reason, you were not able to obtain on your own. You also got to take advantage of lower cost-per-transaction rates. All for $35.00 per month. 100% Profit? No way. Not even close.

Are you sure you're a successful business person?

Are you serious? Leon, Every template is an ugly template. A template is a basic, bare bones, black and white unformatted piece of basic HTML that a web design starts with to build on. He or she ads his own logos, his own graphics and colors to customize the template to look the way they want.

Really? We sub contract to Michael P for website design and he does a fanstic job for us in just under 8 hours a pop to do all 20 pages included in LiveCamNetwork. While the variables are a little tricky (I wish we were using PHP but we're not), it is still old fashion HTML and CSS. AND, we provide lots of online documentation describing each variable and how it is used, AND, we provide free support any time any web designer has a question.

You paid $4000 to a web designer? Sorry Leon, but THAT is where you got ripped off. Not by us.


Not true. It takes us 2-3 days to complete an installation. CCBill approves the billing in 1-2 days after that. If we do the custom design for you it takes us about 8 hours. I'm sorry if your designer took 3 weeks to do your work for you, but you should not blame us for his poor skills.

Leon. What you fail to understand again and again, is that MBASE is completely OPTIONAL. Each website can choose which chat models to Sell to Mbase and to be made available to which website. Each webmaster can turn this on and off at will, or set any prices they like. If you had no chat models on your site it is because you had not enabled them, or had not paid enough to other webmasters for them, or they had not shared them with the network. You cannot DEMAND that other sites and studios share their streams with you.


Again PornSiteNewbie, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with our software, but please stop blaming us. Your post has made it very clear to me that you did not even explore all of the reports that our software offered, and did not spend even a tenth the amount of time your partner, Janet, used it. You really need to stop blaming us and take a closer look at how you do things.

Good luck with your new provider.

Yes, but that's all after the sale. I am talking about tracking traffic in real time and analyzing it before it gets to the checkout page. By the time it's on the report, it's usually too late. We were calling every sale manually after you mentioned the chargebacks. My fraud filtering was my employee calling the customers lol! Remeber, I didn't leave because of the fraud, I left because your system only favored one person, you, and I had no chance at all. We had the fraud well under control, and you yourself configured our CCBIll account before I left, so I was not on your sub account at the time I moved the DNS, I was on my own CCBill account. That's one thing you conveniently omitted.


Really? Look on my last statement, you charged me $85 for fixing the template. The only time you fixed it free is during the "upgrade" which resulted in my site being down over a week. What a deal!

Strange, the template I got from my current provider looks great, and they didn't charge me a penny to set it up.

LOL, yes can you believe it. It took him 3 weeks to set up your templates, and this guy is a real pro too! Yes you do the design so fast because you have done it so many times. Trust me, I didn't believe my designer that he spent all that time on it, but when I saw your templates, I could see how he would.

Oh I understand this quite well. If you remember, the day I was considering buying your license, we spoke on the phone, and you told me that MBase had enough models on to support a brand new site to give me enough time to recruit my own. This simply was not true, there were never enough models on MBase to sustain any site. Had you told me this on day 1, I would have never bought your license to begin with, and we wouldn't be having this convo.

Really I am trying to stop posting here. Let's just leave it at this, and say no more. Let everyone else make their own conclusions. I think we both said enough to make our cases. Good luck to you too Mark.

PornSiteReview:

We do not offer this kind of tracking service nor did we ever say that we did. There are plenty of good traffic anaylizing software out there that you could have chosen from, including plenty of free ones.


No Leon, you didn't.

I am done trying to help you. This thread has taken up to too much of my time already.

It was good advertising for you none the less and in the process you got rid of a headache client. Anyone with an ouce of brains can look at both sides and come to a conclusion of who is right and who is wrong here.

Sounds like he is happy with his new white label and something he should have probably done in the first place.

So ............
Here is my Experience with Mark and 2much.
We bought three licences from them.
They built one site and made all the changes we needed within three days.
Site is up and looks great.
We took the other two templates and had our in house people do the design work, pretty simple to do and Greg and Mark were there if needed.
One of our designer/ programmers had never seen the templates before and still had the site completed in about ten hours the second in six.
Three sites fully developed, our people trained and a turn around of about 21 days.
To be honest it could have been done in seven days if we did not have so many other projects on the go.
The bizz is profitable, easy to run and I could not be happier with the product or service.
Take it for whats its worth as I have only been playing this game since 2000.
So if you are looking for a new cam site to promote come see us, we also have 30 other great sites (Shameless plug sorry)

Hey JimmyDean. From the history of your posts, it seems that you and Mark are very good friends. Anyway, here's a shameless plug for your camsite on Mark's network:

cams.camsdaddy.com/cgi-bin/customer/vibe_custmain.cgi

I see one model online. Must be very profitable for you. I see no search function, no categories of models, no pagination, etc.. Yes, I know you wish you had all those things, but unfortunately Mark's system doesn't let you have them. I know, been there done that. Trust me, the white label solution makes a lot more money even for a newbie like me.

My cam partner as chosen LCN 2much.net for us to work with and I am 110% especially after Mark's response that our business will grow and run smoothly.

Newbie, you defintely got ripped off. Anyone asking for that kind of money up front should have been a big red flag. It really should'nt be a surprise they don't want to pay when you leave them. They'll probably be operating under a different name soon. You have yourself to blame for lack of research and references.

Did you even read the thread? :uhoh

yeah I did, maybe you should give them a try then.

did he read the thread? he has been registered here for 7 years and this is the contribution he finally has to make " if anyone askes for that much money upfront it has to be a scam" lol :1orglaugh My money is on that the orginal poster found an old name that he made but never used and is making a few post in support of his view since no one else agrees with him.

Will, are you sure you're not sharing the loot with this guy? I don't post much but this caught my eye because I was almost taken by a similar scam a while back. I guess the best way to settle this is to see some success stories from people who used his service and actually made money.

There are no success stories, because noone makes money with Mark except Mark. His "customers" get taken for a long and expensive ride until they realize they've been had!

Here is one of the claims from the top of 2much.net home page:

- "Network with other sites to buy, sell or trade live content. Populate your own site with live chat broadcasters instantly!"

The truth is, there are no real sites on their network to buy from, and in the past year there have never been more than 5 models online to "Populate your own site with live chat broadcasters instantly". This claim is a lie designed to con unsuspecting webmasters into forking over big fees. This was the primary reason I bought their license to begin with, and Mark doesn't deny reassuring me this was the case by phone before I signed up! Most of the time his system had no models to share with my site, except an occasional handful.

Since Mark said he doesn't want to help me any more :( can anyone here please tell me how I can launch a successful cam site with no models online? Maybe you know, Will, since you have 10 years experience in the webcam biz?

Let me guess, it's all my fault and I should've known better! I should've known that using Mark's models was totally optional even though one of his company's top 3 claims is having models online to get started. I should've known he would change to a much worse video system than the one I purchased. I should've known not to use real email addresses of models so he wouldn't try to steal them. I should've known it takes 4 months to get paid and he sends rubber checks... I just didn't understand Mark's system enough, that's my problem. What a joke!!!

Yes you should have known, because it was very easy for you to confirm these things Mark was saying. You didn't have to take their word for it, all you had to do was simply ask " hey can I see some of your client's sites that are using your software". Then you could see the quality and how many girls were online, etc... Talk to their clients see if they are happy before you spend money.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!!! Did they have a ton of girls online before you spent the $6,000 and then as soon as you did all of the girls disapreared ???

If you did your homework before you spent the money and checked out some of their sites that were live and saw how many girls were online you would have known what you were getting yourself into.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK... you should check things out and make sure you know what you are getting yourself into.

yes, i do think it was your fault and you are wrong here, me and everyone else except for that guy who has 4 posts lol.

Hello Everyone,

First, thank you for all of the support.

PornSiteNewbie: Here is the last thing I will have to say to you.

We have been in business for a very long time. We run our own studio here in Montreal Canada, and have been featured in numerous publications and TV shows.

I was disapointed with the SOFTWARE that was offered by other companies way back in the day. We decided to write our own SOFTWARE availabe to anyone who wanted to purchase it. We called it LiveCamNetwork Version 1.0, 1.2, 1.3, and now, 3.0.

As we state in our FAQ located at http://www.2much.net/faq.php, LiveCamNetwork is a TOOL, NOT AND BUSINESS MODEL.

We help all of our customers to make LiveCamNetwork with any questions they may have. If you choose to ignore our advice, If you choose to ignore all of our support, if you refuse to recognize FRAUD and other problems that we warn you about, it is your own problem. You should not blame anyone else but yourself.

You FAILED to run your own business properly. You FAILED to recognize your own customers issues and your own performer issues. You DISMISSED your site's huge amoutn of chargebacks and EXPECTED to be paid on those chargebacks etc DESPITE polcies by every 3rd party billing company, and ASSUMED that "this" is how online business works. Your BROKE our contract and IGNORED our Terms of Service Agreement. You claim to have been in the only business for many years? Everyone reading this thread knows 100 times more than you do. Either you are lying or you are in total, complete denial.

Are we a mega success? No.
Are we pretending to be a huge coporation? No.
Do we guarantee that our solution will make you you $1M per minute? Per year? No.

All we do today, and all we have every done, is to run our own little chat studio since 2000, with our own girls, in the best way that we know how, using our software. We have attended trade shows, met with hundreds of other adult site owners, LEARNED from people like CCBill, asked advice from everyone we have ever met, attended sminars, (hosted some), etc etc.

You, Leon, have done NONE of this. You have dismissed every piece of advice we ever gave you and are doing so again in this thread. You have trashed us on GFY without knowing anything about us. You instead have passed the responsibility of your business to your collegue Janet, and now that it has failed, have chosen to slam us, a SOFTWARE PROVIDER, for the Ultimate failure of your BUSINESS. If you blame the failure of your business on one piece of software then you are doing your business a complete and utterr disservice and you do not even deserve to run your own business.

In my opinion, you should fire yourself immediately, and let Janet run things. I guarantee you she will do a much better job than you ever could.

Mark. You can run your studio any way you like, and be in business however many years you like, but you can't go around making false claims like above that you know you can't deliver on. Especially when you charge the exorbitant fees that you do that noone else does in this business. You sold me more than software, Mark, you sold me a "complete" solution, the main part of which for me was models I could use on my site like you claim. I got none of that, and the only advice I ever got from you about the fraud was to call each customer after each sale was made, which my employees did. There was absolutely nothing more I could do, as my hands were tied. What other advice have you given me? None!

Name one successful camsite that is your current client paying what I was who did listen to your great advice, and is making money. Just one, that's all I ask. Remember, I am not here to win or lose (I already lost enough), just to save other people from wasting their time and money. I am not trashing you, Mark, I am only telling the truth about what I got for my money. If that sounds like trash to you, then perhaps you should re-evaluate how you do business.

PornsiteNEWBIE:

Please re-read what I just said. We run our own studio the way WE want to run it. You can run your own studio and business the way YOU want to run it. We offer the software to let you:

A) Stream your OWN content (And bill for it)
B) Stream other content (And bill for it)
C) Stream your own content to other sites (and Bill for it).

We charge you for our SOFTWARE and give you the Services and Support for FREE. You made dozens of mistakes and ignored all of our advice. Do not blame us for your own shortcomings.

If you want to see how a business succeeds running our software, go to LiveCamNetwork.com. As I told you from the very beginning, this is our demo site. We hire our own chat models by advertising in the local news. We buy advertising from various providers, and we pay attention to our own business. AND, LEON, We SHARE everything that we learn WITH YOU, FOR FREE.

I use them last year and was a waste of money, he still sends me bills. I ask them to stop many times. I had to contact cbill cause they triple billed me. I can show the emails

Mark your site dont make other people money, but you. You charge 125 plus people to use the software another fee and some other fee for some more bull shit, so at the end , the people that use your hosting and software dont make shit

You just be rockin it this Friday night:thumbsup

http://www.partyafterdark.com/lcn.jpg

Gentlemen...

http://www.2much.net/gfy/sales1.jpg

http://www.2much.net/gfy/sales2.jpg

http://www.2much.net/gfy/sales3.jpg


Nuff said, I hope?

Have you pay everyone the royalties they deserve for all of the videos you have on your tube site? Maybe you should first pay our bill, then pay all the owners of those videos that you are stealing before you point fingers. People who live in glass houses....

Dude you stole from me and others. You over billed me. You fuck head and still a year later sending me a invoice. I just took it as a lost and moved on. Now should spread the truth about your backyard cam site. You have charge bull shit charges. Give me my money back and I will pay Snoop Dogg is royality

What ever you owe snoop dog and the other's who videos you are using on your tube site illegaly is your business, not ours.

If you are still receiving bills from us then it is because you have not paid us for our services either.

If you are receiving these bills in error then please call our accounting department on Monday and ask for Tracy. Please be ready to provide proof of payment and she will gladly take care of this for you.

Move your site using a free white label solution for your cam site.
Why to pay for a sulotion if you can to ahve it free?!

PS: Regarding your LCN issues with chargebacks, you never can to control its.

Good luck!

I cancel manytimes, now you guys say I owe like 2500 bucks. I did everything proper, while you guys triple billed me. You run a raggy company. Send me my money back so I can pay Ice cube is royalites and the crips and pirus

I'd pay him, not sure if there are any Crips in Montreal, but Will they defintely are in N.O.

Was reading through this thread and came across this line above. So of course I was intrigued to check out your site site, to see what a successful webcam operation looks like. But after looking, I'm seriously wondering:

How does a webcam business succeed with 0 chat hosts online right now?
How many hosts do you have on during your peak times?

Is this the pool of chat hosts that are available when some one uses your service?

See, Mark, like I said, what goes around comes around. There is no hiding from the truth. The only thing is you never know when you screw someone who has the balls to call you on your scam. Yes, I came on here and swallowed my pride, and showed that I am human like everyone else, and made a mistake. But there will be a cold day in hell that I will take it lying down, and not spread the word about my experience. Come on guys, don't be afraid. It wasn't your fault like you thought that you got burned. You got set up from day one for failure. I want to see every other person Mark has screwed throughout his many successful years in business to post their testimonial here, since this has clearly turned into a sales thread for 2Much.net and Mark. Let's help him get more successful folks!

Let's try it this way:

LiveCamNetwork 3.0, is software. It is a video chat program that is also a pay per minute accounting program.

When you bring customers to your site and bring in chat girls for those customers to talk to, it will account for every second that is spent, and produce reports. This is what LiveCamNetwork does.

You should not blame LiveCamNetwork if you do not like what it reports. It told you that you had bad quality traffic. It told you that you had fraud. It told you that your girls were not conerting your visitors into paying customers.

For example: PornSiteNewbie, You had 121 Chat Models sign up to chat on your website since January 2009. Out of those girls very few of these girls ever logged, and the ones who did just sat there and ignored people. You had 1 chat model who earned alot of money for you, but the rest did very badly.


http://www.2much.net/gfy/performer-sales.jpg


In addition, that 1 chat model who did so well for you did so because of the mbase traffic that we sent to you, and did not convert your own traffic at all. She converted our traffic because we buy very targeted traffic, and have alot of loyal customers which took some time to build. You had neither of these.

You can keep saying that I am lying, but I am the only one posting screenshots here. Call me a liar all you want but I can continue to post these reports and screenshots if you want me to.