XMerchant

I just wanted to warn people on this board about the business practices of LCN / Live Cam Network / 2Much.net. Let me share my wonderful experience with you:

- Early last year I was looking for a private label webcam solution for my site, and found what looked like true HD streaming. It carried a big pricetag, a $6000 license fee, but I decided to try it, since I thought the quality was better than average.

- Their system is designed for us to recruit models, and provide traffic, and our models will then be shared with other sites on their network.

- During that year, there were numerous botched upgrades which resulted in downtime of as much as 1 week for my site. The final "upgrade" reduced the quality of the stream substantially, as it went from a Flash Media Encoder to just a regular Flash Player plugin.

- They also claimed that my site had a lot of fraud transactions, yet they advertised that they have the best anti fraud solution, which I was required to pay for $75/month. This is on top of the already high hosting fee of $125. Yes, they charged me to host a site that promoted their models.

- Finally, I was told to get my own merchant account, so I would not be on theirs. This I did as well. Their "techs" charged me $85 for the change, and my site was down for a week.

- To make a long story short, after 1 year of losing money, and paying LCN a small fortune, I decided to switch back ends to a much larger and well known company that had more realistic business practices.

- Since I already spent $6,000 on their license, I decided to move my primary domain away from them, and put another, smaller domain on their network to keep for models that were used to working on this site.

- Once Mark Prince, the owner of LCN found out I am changing domains (this was my damn domain to begin with), he threw a fit, and gave me some song and dance about how I am not allowed to switch the DNS on my own domain, blah blah blah.

- Keep in mind that at this point, he still owed me money for 4 months, while I dutifully paid his fees of course.

Now ladies and gentlemen, here's the kicker!!! Of course I am going to leave, what does he think I am a charity, here to support his sorry ass operation? So I go and change sites, and what does he do, he emails one of our models telling her he no longer works with me, and tries to recruit her to work for him at a guaranteed hourly rate (I have the email to prove it that she sent me). Yes, you heard right! Not only did he have the balls to charge me $6,000 for a worthless license plus all those fees to promote his models and sites, he has the guts to recruit my models too.

As icing on the cake, I just got notice that the last payment of $1,700 that I received from LCN bounced. So that put the balance they owe me at over $10,000.

Well, you know what they say, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... Sorry for the rant, but I just wanted to prevent others from making the costly mistake that I made. So if you do business with 2Much.net, expect to pay a lot, recruit models that they will try to take for themselves, and if you leave you will not get paid a dime!

LeRoy

Such a great product. Hope this can be resolved. Good luck

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MaDalton

let's hear the other site...

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RyuLion

oh wow.....

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sarettah

Sorry to hear that you got ripped off.

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JFK

Yup, lets hear the other side........

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2MuchMark

Hello PornsiteNewBie

It is unfortunate that you have chosen to express your negative experience with us here on GFY, however since you have done so perhaps others may assist you in understanding why our business together had to end. Your post includes many errors which I am happy to address below.

No, this is not true. Your website was never down. Only MBASE was unavailable, and it was unavailable for 3 days between August 18th and August 21. Our big upgrade this year was to LiveCamNetwork 3.0. In the NEWS area of our administrator program, we announced the beginning of the upgrades on August 18th 2009. (Please seen the screenshot below):




Your website was upgraded on August 21st, and then tested and "signed off" on August 22nd. During this time, your website remained online and active. Only MBASE was disabled (it was required for the update) which is why you saw less traffic. We had warned you that Mbase would be disabled in advance of the upgrade. (The news area by the way, is the first page everyone who logs into our administrator program sees).


You had an enormous amount of fraud and chargebacks on your website. If you would please check with your associate Janet, you will find out that we had alerted her several times to the high fraud rate, and then took the time to explain to her how to assist in keep the fraud down. In addition to this, Corvette from CCBill was also helping Janet to keep fraud down, to explain how it worked, and even to enable velocity checking on your account.


When someone makes a purchase and then that purchase is charged back, You are NOT paid out. This is a standard risk that all online businesses who deliver non-tangible goods take. No billing company like CCBill will take on this risk, and neither will we. 100% of the respnsibility for all fraud must all on to the merchant.

Our fraud detection system is described in more detail on this page. : http://www.2much.net/fraud-detection.php. It is an additional layer of protection to help detect fraud and keep it as low as possible. When fraud is detected or suspected, a telephone call is placed to the CARD HOLDER. If the the card holder DENIES his purchase, his card is either being used without his permission, or he is committing what is known as "friendly fraud". Regardless, this purchase is VOIDED. A Void, Refund or Chargeback is almost the same thing wherein no money is collected from the end user, and therefore no money is paid out to you.

Please see this screenshot of your sub account at CCBill:



Out of 76 purchases, 31 of them were fraud. This high rate is unacceptable not only by us, but by CCBill as well. This is why I told you that we cannot process for you any longer, and told you that you had to get your own account. I had also warned Janet 2 weeks prior to this that if fraud was not brought under control right away that we would cancel your sub account with us and ask you to obtain your own.

To clarify the charges: We charge $125.00 per month for our customer care package which includesnot only software, but software updates (like v2.5 to 3.0 as you had received). We also charge $35.00 per month to use our sub account, and $35.00 per month to use our fraud system.


I am sorry that you think that our business practices are unrealistic.


What you did was violate our Terms of Service Agreement, and make a bad situation even worse. By switching your DNS away, you have denied all of your customers (See the CCBill screenshot above) the ability to use your website. And since this was our sub account, you have transfered all of this damage to us. You are "not allowed" to change your DNS away for this reason. In our Terms of Service (which you signed), we have this line:

6.06.01 In the event that the Licensee makes use of Licensor's billing sub-account facility, Licensee shall always maintain its domain name pointed to the domain name server (or "D.N.S.") as specifically designated by Licensor, and shall not switch or point its domain to any other domain name server unless Licensor has provided prior written authorization to do so; failure to respect this provision will cause Licensee to be liable for all damages caused by this default. Licensor shall be entitled to recover all losses or damages caused by any D.N.S. violation. In order to mitigate any damages that would occur from a D.N.S. violation, Licensor shall also be entitled to redirect all traffic from Licensee's domain to that of Licensor's choice, in addition to giving notice to Licensee's customers of the redirection in traffic, which will allow said customers to benefit from purchases made prior to a D.N.S. violation.


Tracy has been constantly asking you to provide a signed terms of service agreement. You kept changing the name of payee from your own personal name, to someone elses name, to Janet, and then back to V Entertainment. The signer of the Terms of Service Agreement must be the same as the payee. You finally only sent a signed contract to us only a few weeks ago, at which time, your first check went out to you.

This is true. We had emailed her because she already had an account at LiveCamNetwork.com. Our website already pays chat models a guaranteed hourly rate plus commission. In addition, 100% of her customers were from LiveCamNetwork, and she posted very often on our BBS. Despite all of this, I think this was a mistake on my part and I did apologize to you already.


No, you are wrong. On advice of our lawyer, a Stop Payment was placed on this check due to your violation of the Terms of Service (described above). An email was sent to you notifying you of the stop payment along with the explanation that the stop payment was necessary until such time that damages due to chargebacks could be fully assessed. A Customer has 6 months to dispute any charge on his credit card. Since you have denied access to 100% of your customers by changing your DNS, it is very possible that all of your customers in the past 6 months can chargeback their purchases. If your customers go to CCBill to chargeback those purchases, CCBill will go to your site, see that the customers username no longer works, and then grant that user his chargeback.


I am sorry that you had to learn the hard way about the true realities of doing business online. I sincerely hope that you read my post carefully and learn anything you can from it.

__________________

VideoChat Solutions | Custom Software | IT Support
https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

dav3

sog spit

__________________

2MuchMark

Also, PornSiteNewbie:

Please don't spam our consumer board with this nonsense.

http://bbs.livecamnetwork.com/BBS/showthread.php?t=7793

Thank you.

__________________

VideoChat Solutions | Custom Software | IT Support
https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

XMerchant

I never received any emails saying that your check is going to bounce. So are you publically stating that 6 months after the period during which a chargeback can occur, you will pay me all the money that you owe, most of which is revenue that our models generated on your website, and not retail sales from our website?

Are you also saying that going behind the back of the very "customer" who pays you handsomely to steal their model is a realistic business practice? Maybe your lawyer suggested you do that too, just like he suggested you bounce a check for money that was owed.

Are you also saying that your business practice is to indefinitely prevent your "customers" from moving their domain names from your service? So if someone wants to switch domains or stop doing business with you, you will want to keep their domain for as long as you want, and keep all their earnings for yourself? Very nice business practices on top of charging $6,000 for something you should be paying us for, promoting your model network on our website.

What world are you living in man? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think there is another company in the adult space that rapes webmasters as bad as you do. You can post all the screenshots and contracts you want, but nothing will change the facts.

2MuchMark

Please check your final statement for the details. Any funds which are left over, after all end user purchases have been settled (cleared or charged back), minus any money you may owe to us, is paid out to you.




No. I am saying that this was a mistake on my part. Please read my previous post on this.


Not at all. To end any business agreement, it is always best to have both parties communicate so that a proper end to business can take place. What you did was to take a drastic measure, without talking to us about it first, without consequence, and without checking with the signed agreement first. (Please see my previous post again).

Had you notified me that you wish to end the agreement, we would have helped you to notify all of your users that their accounts would be changing. For example, you could ask that your customers use up all of the time they had paid for, or you could have provided them credit on the new site which you swiched to (streamate). Since you did not do this, you have effectively ripped off all of your own customers, and made us liable at the same time.

In the agreement (which I like to remind you that, you signed), you will see that a 30 days notification of any changes is required.

You are correct. Nothing will change the facts. Please see the screenshots I posted above.


Regards,
Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net

__________________

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https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

XMerchant

That's a funny one. I'd be surprised if any customer on our old website had any time left at all. In our lengthy ICQ conversation when this happened, I offered not only to email all the customers, but to personally refund anyone with a balance. That of course was not good enough for you. I would be shocked if the total balance outstanding for all the customer accounts on our website was more than a few hundred dollars if even that (yes that's all the customers put together, not each customer).

To those of you reading this, think about this. This man is justifying holding over $8,000 including bouncing a $1,700 check for a lousy few hundred dollars in potential chargebacks. Remember, I offered to refund everyone, he refused me because he knew then he would have no case in keeping my money. I can read between the lines, you don't need me any more, so why not give me one last screwing!

I guess the ultimate proof will be in 6 months when you claim all that is due to me minus what I owe you (LOL) will be paid to me. We shall see, but let everyone else be warned.

BTW, I did not post that on your board, neither did anyone else that works for me. I don't need to post there, here is enough.

2MuchMark

The problem with this PornSiteNewbie, is that we would have no guarantee at all that you would actually refund these customers. And exactly how would you do it? Write everyone a check? How would we know that it was done? And even if it was done, what is to stop your customers from charging back their purchase anyway?

Let me put it another way. Let's say you had a membership website for some solo girl and you charged your customers $30 a month and had 100 customers. Now, today, you sell your domain to someone who turns that site into a site that sells widgets. All of the customers who paid you for that membership would now charge back. When that billing company finds out, they would withhold any money they owed until the problem was resolved, or until they charged it back, or until the 6 month chargeback limit time had passed. This is exactly what we are doing.


At the moment, any money that is owed to you is being held back because of your breach of contract. This includes any sales you may have made via Mbase, This was made very clear to you, and is stated in our Terms of Service agreement, and is quoted in my reply to you above. This is why I urged you to point your DNS back to us which you refused to do.


You are completely wrong on this. Please see the last paragraph.


You will hear from us again in 6 months.


I trust that you know what an IP Address is?

__________________

VideoChat Solutions | Custom Software | IT Support
https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

XMerchant

Fair enough, we'll revisit this post in 6 months. We'll let everyone else here make their judgment, the point of my post was just to bring awareness to how you do business.

As for an IP address, you have my IP address from where I logged into your system, and you know where I live. Look up the IP that posted on your board, and if you can show that it was mine, I'll eat my words. I knew nothing about any other post except for this one. How would posting on your own board that you moderate and can delete any post at will and ban any user benefit me in any way?

Barefootsies

Thanks for the heads up.

I appreciate it big time. 2Much had been recommended to me earlier this year when looking for chat, and webcam solutions.

I delayed consideration on them based on, what I considered, excessive nickel and dimeing on that back end stuff you mentioned. I prefer to OWN the license or software and have it on my OWN servers, and handle my OWN billing.

Unfortuantely a lot of web cam companies appear to follow this business model of the white label, or front end, and then do the same as the dating sites. They basically collect, hoard the profiles to give them a king sized DB over the years. Crippling your, or handicapping you, from ever leaving.

I have also heard many stories about some of the web cam companies trying to recruit your top selling models for themselves. Something I simply would never agree to. In the end, we put the idea on hold for now and will just develop our own software down the line.

Sorry to hear you had this much grief with 2Much and Mark Prince. Thanks 4 sharing the experience however.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

2MuchMark

Hi Barefootsies,

We hear what you are saying. It would be great to purchase a piece of software, and actually own it in your hands, just like a Windows CD for example. Unforuntately, this was a practice we stopped way back in 2004, and switched over to the "Software as a Service" mode (SaaS) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_as_a_Service)

As a small company, it became simply too expensive for us to support both our software, AND the servers and environments that our software became hosted on. Very often, our clients would call us to complain about poor image quality for example. A quick check would reveal problems with the ISP (such as congested routers for example), forcing us to "pass the buck". I'm sure you can understand that customers hate being handed off.

The Operating system and environment has to be very specific thanks to our Mbase system. For example, each server requires 3 Network Interface Cards (NICS). 1 was for the public network (Internet), 1 was for the private network (sharing of mbase data), and one was for backup.

Finding an ISP to support us on this was very hard to do, so we decided instead to run all the servers ourselves, at first in our own server room, and then at Peer1. The Bonus to everything is that now, we make ourselves 100% responsible for not only the software, but the quality of service. (Fast video, no packet loss, etc etc).

Besides all of this though, as per our terms of service, we are 100% dedicated to our own customers. You can use your own billing company and be paid out directly by them. "PornSiteNewbie" had this option too but for whatever reason did not quality for his own CCBill account at the time and instead accepted our offer to use a CCBill sub account belonging to us.

If you are still looking for a solution Barefootsie, please give me a call. I will let you try our software on your own domain with your own billing co for 3 months for free. If by then you are not convinced that our system is as good as we say it is, we can gladly end our working agreement together with nothing more than a handshake. If on the other hand you like our system, we hope that you will let others know what you think.

Cheers!

__________________

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https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

EscortBiz

Props to ya for responding!

As im looking to branch into cams ill contact you

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Spanking, Medical Fetish, Sleeping, Strap-on Anal Lesbians, Girls Fucking Guys, Handjob site REAL HOT, Shemales, Anal and Ass Licking sites 100% Real EXCLUSIVE with amazing retention, ccbill payouts, lots of content FREE FTP HOSTING

Promote the largest and oldest member paid escort site, Converts 10 times better then any dating site, CCBill payouts

ICQ# 158802076

Barefootsies

That part I can understand very well.

Thank you for the explanation and reply.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

2MuchMark

Anytime, Barefootsie! I've always enjoyed your posts (especially your shared obsession with Xbiz Kristen! Damn she's cute). It would be a pleasure to work with you.

Anytime, Escortbiz! See sig for my contact info.

Cheers!

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Abbie

Mark, could you get in touch with me about a matter we still have yet to hear back on you about from awhile back ... our mails went ignored and we'd like to clear things up.

My info is in my sig. Thanks

fatfoo

Interesting read, pornsitenewbie.

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MediaGuy

I'm sorry to hear this.

Really, when you get into a business relationship, you have to read the contracts and terms of service to understand what to expect and how to do things.

I wouldn't begin to try guessing where to get traffic that turns into so much fraud (friendly or not) chargebacks and voids, but the CCBill cap speaks for itself.

There are many things that Mark didn't address in the statements made above - such as:

On the 2much system, models won't be shared with other sites unless this is what you the site owner choose. It's optional. You can keep the performers you recruit exclusive if you want, and still use performers from the network or MBase to round out your line-up.

Our customers only provide traffic to themselves, and to the performers from other sites that they choose to use on their site.

Our system, basically, is designed for you to start up without your own models until you recruit your own, at which point you can cut ties with the networked live content.

We take a risk offering a sub-account on our master account which naturally entails certain obligations; one of them, quoted above, is not to change your DNS without first advising us. Call it a safe exit strategy. When these terms aren't respected there's steps we have to take to cover our asses, and our relationship with CCBill.

Finally, we aren't a white label or a simple front end. We're a centrally hosted video chat delivery system, billing platform provided but optional, and you ultimately manage your models and money and customers. Using MBase is a choice and an option.

You need someone to manage not just the models though, but pricing, payouts, traffic, site changes, backing-up for upgrades, and so on. Plus, on the front end, you can customize the look of the site entirely, or use a generic template.

Ultimately, whether you get a one-package deal like ours, or research and develop your own, with multiple service providers, you're responsible for your success or failure. Blaming the service provider/s is just copping out.

:D

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XMerchant

Mediaguy, I hear what you are saying, but the reason I feel cheated is because I bought a license for a chat system that was better than others, but after you upgraded it, the quality went down to below standard. Just compare your feed with any other cam site, and you either will not be able to tell the difference or will see that it's much worse. It's classic bait and switch, I pay for a lease of what looks like Bentley and a year later you force me to take a Kia and then refuse to give me my money back, it just doesn't work that way.

It's like I pay above market rates for a SaS video streaming package that looks like it's HD, and then a year later instead of it being improved, it gets a lot worst, with no improvements in sight. That's what made me start looking elsewhere, not fraud issues, etc.. As for fraud, you have all control of the backend checkout process, so I have a 0 chance to prevent it. The entire time I was under a false impression that your fraud detection system worked (after all I paid $35 or something like that for it each month), but instead I ended up eating thousands of dollars in fraudulent charges even a child could pick out, yet your system let them through. I rememer this one in particular, there was a guy named Mohammed something using a credit card of a James something, come on! Your system set us up for failure from day one, we had 0 chance!

I remember talking to Mark about this, and he was surprised when I told him we paid our models anyway even though the charges ended up being fraudulent. He told me they never pay models for fraudulent charges (this is another example of how they treat people). I don't know about you, but I don't think I should punish my models who did their jobs chatting, and they deserve to get paid for their time. It was you guys that failed at detecting the fraud, not the models, especially if it was so easy to catch even with a naked eye. If I was given a chance to implement my own fraud controls, I would gladly have done it, but there is no way to do that when you control everything on the front and back end.

With all of the above said, I would think you guys would appreciate a loyal customer and just accomodate me on changing my domain name, but instead you withhold all my money and recruit my models. Oh one other joke everyone, Mark told me he would change my domain for a one time fee of $1,600 hahahahaha! Shame is the only word that can describe this...

Barefootsies

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

2MuchMark

Email sent!

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https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

Basic_man

Bump for Mark! We love you

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2MuchMark

PornSiteNewbie: You are making a mistake. If the video quality is lower, it is because your chat model did not select the proper image quality. Please see the screenshot below:




The default setting is a standard 320x240 at 15 frames per second with moderate compression settings. All your girls need to do is to select a higher setting and they will have better video. As long as they did not exceed their own bandwidth limitations they can provide spectacular quality video. These instructions were posted in the NEWS area as well as directly on our website. Our own studios broadcast in Wide Screen and at much higher quality simply by changing this setting.

Don't blame us or accuse of of "bait and switch" just because you didn't read any of our news items or even the links to the instruction on how to use our software.


No, again Leon, you have made a big mistake here too. When you are the victim of fraud, you have not "gained" money, but you do not have to lose any money either. LiveCamNetwork gives you the choice to payout to your chat models in the event of fraud, or not! For example, you can be the nice guy boss and payout to your chat models (after all, they did the work and fraud should not be their fault), or, you can be the All-Business boss and say Sorry, Fraud is Fraud, is fraud.

Please look at thie screenshot:



As you can see, you have a "Debit Fraud?" icon beside each chat model in the Performer Payout area (yes there is a check "all" button too). And if you at the rest of the yellow arrows, you will see that the accounting system takes fraud into account so that every single penny is always accounted for, even when you are ripped off.

If you're still looking, you may also notice a "Holdback and Holdback return". This is a function that lets you hold back a percentage of the money you owe to your models, and pay them 6 months later when you receive your own Holdback!. (Where have you heard this before? Wait I know! From CCBill (and ALL other billing companies).

I make no secret whatsoever that I love the way CCBill does business and we have modeled LiveCamNetwork's accounting and policies after them. (Don't sue me, CCBill!)


You are 100% right about that. We do not payout to our chat models in the event of fraud. (The screenshot above is from our own payout system). We do not Not payout to them to treat them badly. I do it simply because it is my personal choice as to how I run my business.

I know that not everyone agrees with this, which is exactly why Leon, we wrote this CHOICE into our software. You have the choice to payout to your chat models on fraud, or not.

I will tell you something Leon: We used to payout to our chat models, and our fraud used to be out of control. Guess what? As soon as we made it very public that chat models are NEVER paid out on fraud, 99% of our fraud disapeared. How about that? One month we were facing $30,000 in fraud, and then suddenly, all gone! Problem solved.

You did not need to take my advice on any of this, Leon. My advice to you came from my own experience. You were always free to run your business any way that you wanted to, but when the way you run business puts my own business at risk, I have to step in.



Here is the other big mistake you made. You wanted to "change your domain name". This was my point all along. You can not change your domain name "just like that' because your domain name is your account. It is how your customers find you, how your chat models log in, and how CCBill processes for you.

Here is what "changing your domain name" means:

Installation of a new LiveCamNetwork license.
Creation of new accounts on our servers
Creation of new CCBill account or sub account.
Installation of the CCBill post-back scripts and other software.
Testing, testing, and more testing.
Installation of Template
Website design and graphics (if requested), or tech support for your webmaster to do it.
A new Terms of Service agreement for the new domain.
Transfer all all performer accounts to the new site
Transfer of all user accounts to the new site.
Emails to all of the above with instructions (and reason I hope).

To do all of the above would have taken at least 4 days to complete.

Pardon me sir, if we dare to charge you for work that you ask us to do for you.

__________________

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https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

Les Grossman

Their mail server was down during that time and you were notified of this down time prior to you sending the emails. Screen shot to follow.

XMerchant

Great, and 99% of your models and revenue disappeared too LOL! Give me a break, out of all the models that you supposedly have or had, 2 of ours made your top 5, and they were barely making $100 a day. BTW, some of our models make that in an hour now, and with no BS or crazy charges to me either. God, you are so successful, I admire you!

Also, what about the time I spent almost 6 hours on the phone telling your programmer how to troubleshoot an issue you guys refused to admit you had after a Vista upgrade. I did not charge you for my time, and my models lost a few days of work without pay. There are 2 sides to every story, Mark, and it is you who chooses not to listen to your customers, and continues to think that you are smarter than everyone else. Let's see how far this attitude gets you in business. You have lost my business, and I was in your top 5 LOL, so you are not as good as you think. Don't let my screen name fool you, I have been around the web since 1994, so I'm no newbie when it comes to working online or spotting shady business practices. The only difference is I already made my money, and do this as a hobby, so when I run into a scammer like you I have no problem calling you on it. A few grand here and there don't make or break me, because I value my reputation more than money. This is why when you offered me to resell my "license", I told you that I could not sleep at night knowing that I let someone else get taken advantage of just like I was.

Who am I to talk, let the market decide, anyone here want to try out the super deluxe LCN license, step right up? Just be sure to get wires as payments, and use fake model email addresses so they won't get recruited behind your back

2MuchMark

Leon, I know you really hate me, but I promise you that you are making a mistake. You have no clue at all as to what you are talking about. Girls like Ava, Cassie, etc have been with us for over 5 years now. I would be happy to prove this to you but I'm sure you won't believe me.

Congratulations! Now you see what GOOD Traffic that isn't full of fraud can do for you.



No Leon, I'm not. Our company is struggling just like lots of other companies. The US Dollar is weak and the economy is still in bad shape. Success today does not guarantee success tomorrow. It is currently 2:54 am and I am still awake and still at work.

Sorry Leon, but you are wrong here too. I never ever claimed to anyone to be an expert. Ask anyone here on GFY that I have met in person at any trade show if I ever came off like this. At a recent trade show (The Qwebec Expo) I hosted 1 seminar full if Billing Experts including CCBill, and participating in a "Webcam and Dating" seminar. If you want real experts, talk to them. I was honoured to be sitting next to the smartest and most successful people there, and asked ALL of them for advice. I'm not smarter than everyone else. What I do very well though is listen to everyone else and learn everything that I can. Hopefully you can do the same one day.

__________________

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XMerchant

Mark, I don't hate you, I just resent your unethical business practices. You have a right to run your business any way you wish, but I also have a right to tell others about getting burned. I am a firm believer in Karma, so everything you do eventually comes back to you one way or another.

Just for the record, according to my statement, for the last 6 months there was $4283.31 in ccbill charges minus $482.50 in chargebacks that weren't caught by your system which were already deducted. This leaves a total possible exposure to you of $3,800.81 for the last 6 months. Now we both know that most people who deposit money into their account use up most of it the same day or soon thereafter. Since our site was down for over 2 weeks before I chose to leave since billing wasn't working, most of the exposure is already over. I predict there will be 0 to $100 in chargebacks in the next 6 months, but we will see. You are holding a total of $9026.17 of my money including the bounced check for $1,700 but not the NSF fee of $35 charged to me by my bank. That amount also does not include last month's earnings which were over $1,000 (we no longer have access to this report btw). This makes the grand total you owe me over $10,000. So you feel you need to hold a 300% reserve? Very ethical!

Since I cancelled all my service with you, there should be no fees charged for hosting, etc. from your company going forward for the next 6 months. Like I said, I can't tell you how to run your business, so go ahead and hold my money. I will be back here in 6 months to let everyone know how much of that $10026.17+ you returned to me. By then you will be out of excuses and screenshots. Over and out...

2MuchMark

Leon, it is a mistake to call me unethical. After all, you are the one who violated our Terms of Service, and you are also the one who broke the agreement and are in breach of contract. You also made it impossible for your own customers to get the services that they paid for.

As for the rest Leon, please hire an accountant and he will explain how a simple account statement works. You are no longer our client and I have no interest in teaching you the basics of accounting.

Good luck to you.

__________________

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will76

Got to love when you get one of those complaints from someone who is in the wrong and it turns into great advertising for the company he is complaining about and a great opportunity for them to showcase to everyone how their product works ;)

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ICQ: 86364801 Email: will [at] innovativeassets [dot] com

XMerchant

Sorry, Will, how am I in the wrong, please enlighten me. I wonder how you would feel if this happened to you? Maybe I'm missing something. I don't mind helping Mark promote his business at all, that's what I have been doing for the past year LOL! Let's elevate his product to a new high

will76

This wouldn't have happened to me. I wouldn't have handled this anywhere close to how you did. First of all, the dns thing... you should have known better.
You have a crazy amount of fraud, it's EXPECTED that they would want you to get off of their merchant account.

You made a lot of comments how his business is sent up for you to send in traffic, chat host, whatever. But he explained how you opt out of using the other girls and you just send traffic to your own site.

They only thing he did I would have been upset with was talking to my chathost, which he apologized for. And I wouldn't have liked him posting my stats here, but no one else seemed to mind or mention that. I also wouldn't have been thrilled about being down for 3 days as they did an upgrade, but it happens.

Read and understand exactly what you are getting yourself into, sounds like a lot of your problems is because you didn't understand how the system worked. but that is your fault for not knowing how to use it or asking questions sooner to find out.

__________________
ICQ: 86364801 Email: will [at] innovativeassets [dot] com

fris

thanks for the headsup, gonna stay clear of them, was looking into their solutions, thank god I didnt spend a penny on their BS operation

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WP Stuff

will76

replying after reading the original post or did you read all of the replies and still posted this.... Just curious.

__________________
ICQ: 86364801 Email: will [at] innovativeassets [dot] com

XMerchant

Thanks for your take, I appreciate the input. I knew exactly what I was into, my only mistake was staying on as long as I did, and not leaving sooner. Hopefully you would be upset too if they held 300% of your money in reserve for 6 months.

As for the chathost situation, someone tries to steal something, gets caught, and then apologizes for it (he only apologized because he knew I found out about it), does that make him honest? Would you trust him again? Anyway, live and learn...

2MuchMark

Hi Fris,

Please take the time to read my replies to each of PornSiteNewbie's statements in this thread, especially the screenshots, as it may help to clear up any confusion. Also please see Will76's response as well.

If you are still interested I would gladly let you try LiveCamNetwork out for free for a month or so so you can see exactly how it works. If you decide you don't want it we can just shake hands and move on, and in a few months I'll hit you up with an even better version.

Peace!

__________________

VideoChat Solutions | Custom Software | IT Support
https://www.2much.net | https://www.lcntech.com

corvette

Let me comment here that I believe it is a common practice to make an adjustment after refunds/chargebacks come in, which reduces the incentive for people along the way (affiliates, models, etc) to encourage fraudulent practices

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tigermtb

Firstly, I normally don't post in drama threads and prefer to mind my own business... but something here seems awfully fishy.

This to me is a HUGE red flag despite the endless he-said she-said.

Honestly, its usually newbies that post these types of threads because they either don't understand, or don't care how to properly do business. We've all done it but we shouldn't.

I don't know Mark very well, but from what I do know, him and his business is good. I'm sure that this situation has been blown of of proportion by someone who thought they were going to make buckets of money and didn't.

I'm more curious where the fraud was coming from. Best of luck to all.

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Barefootsies

Dayum....

....dat's COLD BLOOODDDEEED

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

LoveSandra

Sorry to hear

XMerchant

Yes, I am a newbie to the webcam business, otherwise I would have known better to avoid doing business with 2Much. I am definitely not a newbie to the online business, and have been dealing with credit card processing since 1998, so I know all about reserves, fraud filters, etc.. The only difference is on my other businesses, I have full control of my checkout pages, as in knowing what IP's are using it, checking for names, ISP's, items purchased, passwords and user names provided, email addreses, etc. before the transaction even goes to my processor. With 2Much, I was not given any of those options, just wing it and hope they catch the fraud. As to where the fraud is coming from, I have a very generic webcam domain which gets most traffic from direct browser type-ins, so it could be that there was a disproportianately high amount of foreigh traffic, mainly from Romania, Vietnam, and Indonesia. If I had the tools, I would have blocked access to those countries altogether.

Blown out of proportion? OK, you know what, I would love to hear from one of Mark's satisfied customers who have the same deal I had, and are actually making money (by making money I mean more than $1,000 per month net). If his system is so good, he's sure to have a few satisfied customers, isn't he?

Let me just summarize my experience with 2Much here so other newbies like me would not fall into the same trap that I did:

1) Webmaster buys a 2Much license for $4,100 up front (I actually got a bargain of $6,000 for 3 domains) - 2Much just made $4,100-$6,000.
2) Webmaster pays $125/month for "customer care" and hosting - 2Much will make $1,500 a year for hosting.
3) Webmaster pays $70 per month to use 2Much ccbill subaccount or gets their own (btw CCBill dos not charge for subaccounts, so that $70 is 100% profit) - 2Much makes $840 more per year.
4) Webmaster gets a standard very basic and ugly looking template (sorry Mark, it's true), and if he/she wants the site to look presentable, much more money is needed to customize the templates (I spent $4,000 with a separate designer). The templates probably haven't been updated since 1997, and are very hard to configure. Each page uses different variables names for the same parameter, so you have to spend days going through each variable to make sure it's the correct one for that page. Anything but user friendly.
5) Webmaster waits 2 to 3 weeks after the template design and configuration is done to get their site online and get billing set up.
6) Webmaster recruits models, and inputs them into the system or he/she can use 2Much models for a percentage of the sale the model generates. The only problem is there are many times not a single 2Much model is online, and the most I ever saw on were like 5, some of whom didn't even speak English. Another pipe dream, thinking that a new webmaster will have a head start with using Mbase models.
7) Webmaster buys traffic or a has a very expensive domain which has type-in traffic.
8) Visitors come to the website, find a couple of models on and leave. Models get hired, try working, make no money and leave.
9) Webmaster realizes it's a hopeless situation and leaves for a better solution that makes much more money on the same traffic and models. Btw, I am very happy with my new back end solution, and I couldn't praise it more. It's everything 2Much isn't, and my biggest mistake was not finding it sooner!
10) 2Much keeps the customer database, earnings for 4 months, and tries to recruit the webmaster's models.
11) 2Much looks for another sucker like me...

Just look at this as a study of the probability of success using the 2Much model, nothing more. I am just sharing my experience with everyone here. Nothing blown out of proportion, no lies, just what really happened to me. Feel free to learn from my costly mistake. Read into it what you like, but yes, this really happened to me with 2Much!

will76

How do they hold 300% of your money? Not following you there. If they owed you $10,000 and they kept $10,000 that would be 100%

I honestly wouldn't be upset if they were holding my money against future chargebacks because I moved the site away from them, stranding my customers who had unused mins. Also not to mention chargebacks that could still come in from transactions you had recently. I would be upset if after the dust settled and they still owed me money but they never sent it.

Your problem wasn't staying too long, it was not asking questions. You say you know what you got into but from your posts here it sounds like you really didn't know how the site worked, how to modify the quality of the feeds, how to opt out of the other girls showing on your site, etc... above and beyond that your biggest problem is your crazy high chargeback rate. If your traffic, where ever that comes from, follows you to your next site (streamates) you will be unhappy with them soon as they likely cancel your account.

__________________
ICQ: 86364801 Email: will [at] innovativeassets [dot] com

XMerchant

Please read my previous post. I also forgot to mention that the $6,000 license fee is lost for ever as well. Oh Streamate knows all about the fraud, and we had a nice laugh about it even going as far as the CCBill checkout page.

As for the 300%. OK, their exposure to fraud is $3800 worst case scenario if not a single purchased minute was used in 6 months, they are keeping $10,000, so it's 263% to be exact (10000/3800).

will76

And you said you knew what you were getting into??? lol. You go on and on about the fees, you didn't know that upfront? It was ok when you wanted to try it but it didn't work out for you and now you bitch about all the fees and profit they make?

you don't get the amount of fraud you got from type in traffic.

If I understand this right, 2much put an extra level of protection in place on top of what ccbill has in place for fraud.... so you think you could have done better than ccbill with fraud if you had the tools. Oh btw, i believe he said you could get your own merchant account and not use theirs, wouldn't you have some control if you were using your own merchant account ?

" Webmaster gets a standard very basic and ugly looking template (sorry Mark, it's true), and if he/she wants the site to look presentable, much more money is needed to customize the templates (I spent $4,000 with a separate designer). " = cost of doing business. You would have had to pay for design no matter what. They provide you with software and if needed models and processing. You provide your own site, correct?

" 7) Webmaster buys traffic or a has a very expensive domain which has type-in traffic. " WTF is that have to do with 2much? are you sure you are not camgirls.com ???

After all of your accusations and bs in this thread when it is obvious to everyone you are in the wrong, 2much should keep the money owed for the bullshit you are causing. Give it time, your new company will be shit canning you soon if you bring the same traffic over to them that was causing you to get all those chargebacks.

__________________
ICQ: 86364801 Email: will [at] innovativeassets [dot] com

will76

I'm done reading your posts, on closing I would like to say your screen name fits you well. you got at least that right!

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ICQ: 86364801 Email: will [at] innovativeassets [dot] com

XMerchant

Accusations, what accusations? I shared what I went through because I wouldn't want the same thing to happen to anyone else. I have no other motive here...

XMerchant

Thanks for the kind words Will. Btw, with my current backend solution (I am not mentioning names on purpose so you don't think I am on some PR mission here) I had 0 costs, yes 0. No monthly fees, no up front fees, no templates to configure, yes they did it for me free because they want a long term business relationship. That's what I call smart business! I'm done too.