JFK

Fitty Tube Haters

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B.Barnato

i stoled 50

czarina

you are right, those card-banging companies are undermining the consumer's trust in our industry, and they're worse for us than the tubes themselves

Alprazolam

doesn't your husband pornguy work for the biggest card banging company out there?

kristin

I don't think one is worse than the other. Each impact different sectors of our business, I just don't think tubes are the blame-all for the state of the industry.

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Vacares rules.

"Usually only fat guys have the kind of knowledge and ability that Kristin has."

Paul Markham

We've been fucking over the customers for 12 years and maybe more. Now can't figure out why they are so hard to get off free porn. Is it really any wonder this game is shrinking?

Tubes are not a game changer. They are another logical step in the process of giving out free porn. It's only now after 12 years of fucking over the customers, Tubes are so much better for customers.

This is a guess as I asked on another board about conversion figures on a Tube, surfers to sign up, and never got an answer. However

TGP Galleries could get 500 surfers hit them, 100 click the links and 1 buy. That's a conversion rate of 1-500.

Tubes from what I read convert on banner clicks 1-5,000. We had a lot of content on a big Tube site and though we got lots of views, good votes in the poll. The link See More of Paul Markham Teens converted at 1-25,000. The vast majority clicked back the moment they knew it was a link to a paysite.

Do the maths. Yes the Internet brought porn to millions who could never find it before. But the TGP figures prove most were just free viewers from day 1.

And we did our utmost to make sure they never needed to buy. Even at 100 gallery views and 1 sale. We were losing out to 99% of our potential customer base. And we called it "Internet Marketing" and felt superior because offline porn never understood it.

We had people standing in a line, to a bar selling water, in the middle of a desert. And hosed them down with free water.

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kristin

I wanted to clarify my post on this. Yes meant I do believe they are legal now.

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Vacares rules.

"Usually only fat guys have the kind of knowledge and ability that Kristin has."

merina0803

creampuff says they are legal... motherless as well.

TheDoc

I've seen many people answer you on how well and bad they convert tube traffic.... Just like I've seen 1:100k ratios on galleries even 8 years ago.

The reason your link didn't convert is because it's a blind link... on a gallery it would have bombed as well, it wouldn't have done good last year, 5 years ago or 15 years ago. You're trying to say Galleries had a 20% click ratio, and that's just wrong.

If you took out free porn, you would take away the millions of people. You wouldn't be able to compete with those that buy up all the traffic sources.... free porn is how you and most of us stay in business... without it, you're just another hamburger flipper.


I've never seen a gallery post send 100+ sales a day, day after day - and I've seen tubes do that for years now. And that's just to one of the sponsors they have. The biggest TGP ever, never had enough traffic to even compete at that level so even trying to compare them, is pure silly.

Get out and get yourself some traffic... sales today are bigger than ever, they just moved to a different location.

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The Porn Nerd

Actually, I blame the Baby Boomer parents for the lack of porn sales.

They invented the "sexual revolution" and have taught their kids, who they treat more as friends rather than their offspring, to find their connections through technology. So the kids surf all day, Facebook, Twitter, surf porn, do all this while their free-spirited friends - I mean, "parents" - are off working, going on vacation, doing their own shit. The kids? Grow up on your own, connect with friends online, live a virtual life because the life you're living today, in today's world, with today's "parents", is like living a lonely, meaningless little life and who wants that? Stay connected. Stay online. Find things to do....hey, there's some free porn over here, and over there, and over here!!

This, and GIANT FAKE BOOBS. That's who I blame.
Carry on.

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Socks

Watching porn movies is worth money.

Unless of course you can get them for free with no consequences...

All hail the ISP bandwidth providers.

Allison

That is actually answered by the courts, not by a response on GFY. GFY doesn't determine what's legal or illegal, lawsuits and courts do. If GFY's determination of law mattered we'd see a way different industry in existence.

I see more and more tubes acting more responsibly when it comes to copyright infringement prevention and policies, but are or were they illegal or are they legal? I don't know. That can only be answered by someone who has 100% evidence and proof of their infrastructure and brings that evidence to light in the courts.

Beyond copyright infringement and 2257 violations there could be patent infringement, obscenity, breach of contracts etc, etc, but all that applies to many adult businesses and I think our industry's use of the word "legal" when it comes to tubes is poorly used.

~Alli

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Paul Markham

This is why we're doing so badly. The attitude that we have to give free porn away to get people to buy porn. Then the belief that if we didn't give away free porn the traffic sources would buy up all the traffic. Which comes from where?

From blind links on pages full of blind links maybe. Mixed in with sponsors blind links.

The problem with this approach is easy to understand. It starts with A giving out 10 free pictures, then B gives out 15, then C gives out 20. Until we reach S, whose giving out 1,000 free 25 minute clips in a compressed small FLV.

And T gives out 1200 in a slightly better resolution.

And the 100 conversions a day magically appear from no where.

Because the industry is making more money than it ever was, because we give away more free porn than ever before.

And of course those 100 joins didn't come from someone else. And without free porn it would never of been 1,000 a day. No way would we get any sales without free porn.

TheDoc's post clearly illustrates the business level of online porn. Free porn creates sales and the more you give away the more sales you create.

So giving away whole sites must be producing a ton of sign ups.

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Qbert

If you're saying that none of the content currently being uploaded is illegally obtained then you're far more gullible than I thought. Pornhub network and others may be leaning more toward licensed content and sponsor approved accounts, but they aren't yet 100% legit content by a long shot.

Allison

Agreed, and I'll add to what I've called "The Perfect Storm" that has impacted the industry:
-Studios devaluing their own content by licensing it for $5 to $25 per scene
-Studios not utilizing the legal process to go after those who infringe on their content
-Consumers spending more time on mainstream internet sites like facebook. Remember when the internet was for porn?
-False advertising and chances for "hookups" from some hot chick down the street that wants to fuck

For those who will say "Quit your bitching". ...Even given all that "Perfect Storm" it's the hand that we've been dealt and ultimately all this data has helped us determine who we want to be as a company with the consumer for the long term and we're taking action where we clearly can (we have a strict anti-piracy and licensing policies for example) and we're influencing others in a more positive way.

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Paul Markham

Sorry I just spilt my coffee. Go and think hard about why they give it away so cheap.

Seriously Alison you really didn't think that one through.

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helterskelter808

Nonsense.

merina0803

and CP posted crazy too on lots of these.

TheDoc

"We" aren't doing badly... that's the first thing you need to understand, many people are doing better today than ever before.

I helped start the CJ business, blind links are for 1 thing, traffic.... anyone trying to convert them to sales is totally missing the point of a blind link.

I can find free porn today just as easily as I've ever been able to find it... I remember when I was first shown porn online, it was on a free site.

Free porn creates ATTRACTION....

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TheDoc

Oh I know, I know..... 99% of them totally refused to switch business models for 10+ years, if at all.

Not just to online, but in content style too. So years pass buy, the entire world switch buying power, and they STILL can't figure out the Internet, they still argue/bitch about it.

So they sell everything they have as a lost resort to keep the doors open a few more days. They actually end up selling to tubes/piracy sources, because thats the only people that will take old crap content. They could charge more if paysites purchased it, but most paysites buying don't want trash and most everything in mainstream coming to the Internet, is trash.

It's not like they're all doing this, so clearly a few figured it out.

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Paul Markham

I'm off to bed so I will post why Allison's post about studios selling it cheaply was so bad.

The online business has devastated offline and the production side of the business.

Doc may troll I don't know about anything, but offline and production I know more than most here.

Magazines are nearly dead, DVD is struggling. And everyone knows that.

Online pays as little as possible for content. Even the best payers online don't pay anything like enough.

I make more money today selling a $5 set than a $30 set. Because 200+ will buy it at $5 and the days of selling it 30 times at $50 are over.

Yes hardcore DVD content is exactly the same. It's better to sell it 200 times at $5 than 30 times at $50. It's hardly worth shooting a hardcore scene for the Internet only.

Even without the question of free content. The Internet pushed down the prices studios could get for their content, so Allison blames the studios.

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Paul Markham

Clueless. They never came online because they knew it would hurt their offline business even more. How many people buying a 5 scene DVD for $30 would switch to a 100 scene site from the same studio for $30 a month?

And what style is that. The styles online copied?

And online sponsors pay so much for content?
Now their business is devastated they're clutching at straws. Did you ever think your 100 sales a day used to buy DVD?

No the DVD industry never gave away enough free porn to sell anything.

This is why everyone is complaining, people leaving the business, sponsors paying leter than ever, sites closing and boards grinding to a halt.

You're stupid. If it were only text links that went to sites. there would be no need to CJ them.

Go think a bit harder.

Now you know why you're on ignore, you're clueless with nothing to offer and talk BS. The industry is in massive decline. Don't BS us.

You're clueless sitting in your spare bedroom making a few bucks about real business.

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TheDoc

EVERYTHING technology based gets cheaper with time. The camera and equip is far cheaper, it's cheap to shoot anywhere in the world now, all girls are cheap, the entire process from the first click of the camera to being published online, can be done by one person, even the talent.

I can promise you cell phones aren't cheaper because of free porn....

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TheDoc

DMR screwed us over some 15 years ago... the biggest program ever is 10+ years old and long gone, the biggest forum in our Industry is long gone. It's NATURAL.

You're the one that gave a sample of converting like crap using blind text links... not me. I simply pointed out the facts, you converting bad on a blind link, is normal.


I know people like you... you're a fake. You sit here pretending to have a clue but you've never done more than a handful of sales yourself and you've never had any traffic of any volume, ever!

And truly, I don't care if you have me on ignore. I truly think you do more damage with your posts than you do good.... I have zero respect for you... you deserve none.

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kristin

I think it would have eventually happened that studios went out of business when they are trying to charge $20-40 for a movie. Netflix/Blockbuster is a great example of how Internet evolution forced a brick and mortar out.

Licensed content still sells at $250-500/DVD, trust me. Other studios devalued their content for quick money when shit started to hit the fan.

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Paul Markham

You missed my point. 200 will pay $5 and only 30 will pay $50. Prices and numbers vary, this is just an example.

Content producers are in business to maximise the return dollar on content. So they keep themselves in business. Not sell it for a lot less, at a high price to keep you in business.

If 50 would pay $50. We would sell it at $50. Another example.

Sponsors dictate the price. Or would you like all content producers to lose money so a couple of big companies, like yourself, could dominate the the market?

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TheDoc

Oh snap, I didn't see this other trash from you......

Hahaha, brilliant logic when almost all of them have gone out of business.... How many studio's charged monthly before the Internet? BAM!



I don't see anything in the late 80's or early 90's that look

What porn today looks like porn shot in the late 80's or 90's? Bangbus? Reality porn? Which one of the major "Internet" discoveries did mainstream porn do?



Yes, paysite content is normally worth more than mainstream porn content. But that's normally because paysites have newer content, which costs more.


Well, some of those 100 sales used to buy dvd's or maybe would have.... but not most. It's not like 100% of the people that walked into stores purchased porn but I can guarantee you 100% of the porn stores would take the foot traffic most paysites have, without thinking twice......

It's funny that you think it's 1 to 1... Again FREE creates attraction that our Industry DID NOT have before it was round.

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TheDoc

Newer content doesn't cost $50, old crap content does though... try producing something that isn't 10 years old and you'll get top dollar for it.

It's still possible to pay for all scenes, production, the entire dvd before any scene is released.... Clearly they aren't selling it for $50 a pop to make that happen.

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datatank

You mean the one you are posting on?

TheDoc

For the last several years it has been the biggest, it wasn't always though... a couple other boards have had far larger daily post volume/traffic sizes, they just couldn't keep it together.

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Lint

What do you mean by MAINSTREAM?

datatank

You are talking about "adult webmaster" boards?

I can not recall any with more posts

datatank

teeth whiteners
make money on google

etc
etc

HarryMuff

links pulled

TheDoc

Yep... not any others with more posts, but that doesn't mean it ever beat the daily post volume or traffic level of the others.

Which is exactly what my post was about... they come and go, non-stop, from boards, processors, programs, affiliates, etc. It's not something that is a few years old, it's been happening for 15 years.

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Seth Manson

There are too many idiots in this business. Tubes site or card banging, doesnt matter. The idiots are fucking themselves along with everyone else.

It all started with tgp sites. Free sites were a great idea, just a little tease with some banners the business model worked and signup ratios were awesome. Then someone got the idea to give it away for free.

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TheDoc

You guys are funny.... Ratios in 96 would bomb, paysites got shut down pre99 because they failed, and most programs back then never calculated ratios, it was mostly PPC or total crap stats.

What changed in our Industry was the traffic flow. We used to share it, from a gallery, a trade, a hardlink, cj sites, even paysites did it with exits. Today, other than a few submit passes and minor sources, this has all but dried up.

10 years ago any joe that could use netscape gold could rip out a crap page, toss it up on one of many many many free hosts, submit it by hand, and instantly get some beer money while a site make some cash too.

That's gone today.. that traffic is bottle necked between a 100 or so sites, almost all of which don't share the traffic, at least not at mass volume so the entire Industry can tap into it.

If you want the sales, just go where the traffic is... I guarantee you the sales will follow.

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datatank

I dont think there was an adult board ever with more posts per day than this place.

TheDoc

Oh yeah... but that's not a bad thing, gfy took off as the others fell apart. Hell, a huge group of people couldn't hack gfy all together and split off again. That board is almost dead, but it's not like the people came back... But back in the day, it wasn't all split up, it was highly focused into just a few really hot spots.

I would guess 2-3% of our 'active' Industry has ever posted on gfy... I find people all the time that have never heard of it, or even trade shows or lots of stuff - point being, still room today for someone to be bigger, just like in the past.

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WarChild

Well if anybody is an expert in conversions magically appearing out of no where, it would be Paul.

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Paul Markham

Quoted for the truth.

Any businessman who thinks giving the product away for free in the amounts online porn does is not thinking. The reasons are obvious and the proof that it doesn't work is everywhere.

Yet people think it works. When today it's obvious to everyone it doesn't work for the business and only for the individual for a short while.

Doc says that some Tubes convert at 100 a day. Not thinking about where those sign ups came from. To him the free content created them. The truth is that traffic would of bought 200 times a day from TGP sites and 500 a day from a softcore advert and maybe as high as 1,000 a day from a link.

If Tube traffic converts at 1-1,000 on clicks on a banner. it takes 100,000 clicks to get 100 sign ups.

If a Tube video needs 10 views to get 1 click on a banner it takes 1 million views to get 100 sign ups.

1 million people clicking on an advert like this, and remember this is the most any site gives away in this example, what would conversions of been like?



The argument that people wouldn't be looking at online porn is baseless. People who are interested in porn will look for it. Once you erect a barrier between the buyer and the seller you have problems. If that barrier satisfies that buyer, then the need to buy is lessened.

In the early days on TGP I knew where many of the buyers were coming from. They were magazine buyers. Because magazine sales declined from the time of TGP sites. And everyone giving away free porn whooped with joy at the decline of the magazine business. Screaming they don't understand the way Internet marketing works. They understood it perfectly well. The online marketing guys were the ones that didn't understand it.

They thought giving the product away for free was the way to sell it.

The truth is most of the people in this business in the early days didn't have a pot to piss in, didn't have a clue how to sell, create porn or even knew what porn was about. So with that as a starting point they were unable to create a product that truly sold. They had to create a product that sold to 1-100 clicks. Which was probably 1-500 porn surfers.

Now they know free porn is a killer to selling porn and the argument is "If you only give away a little bit, sales will come flowing back." Without realising, if they gave away nothing, sales would come flooding back. We would be swamped with sales, the biggest servers would be the ones for the members area, not the ones for the free porn. The guys who made a $million selling porn, would of made $50 million.

Of course the guys posting up most of the free porn as affiliates would be working offline. Which many will be soon.

This post is an indication of the thinking of online porn.

Mainstream isn't stupid enough to give the buyer a free alternative to buy. How do they ever get people to buy without giving it away. Do people who actually want the product go looking for it?

No that's a stupid idea.

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V_RocKs

Are you crushing on somebody at Manwin? Do tell!

Paul Markham

No. Having Reggie here for a few days made me realise that I was coming across very anti Manwin only. My problem, if it is a problem, is we know very little about Manwin and for a company that's taking over the business slowly that's a bad thing. IMO

I dislike all those who thought the way to sell online porn was to give it away for free. That thought without giving it away, people wouldn't be able to find it or even come to find it. The people who thought that not only should we give it away, we should pay a lot to give it away and give the power over to those who give it away.

AND few ever dreamed it was actually losing them sales. They thought 1-100 was 100 who would never buy online porn, therefore a result. Stupid mindset. Without giving it away they could of had, approximately, 10% of the traffic and double the sales.

We made the business all about free porn and now complaining about too much free porn.

Doesn't make sense. Anything more than what I showed, is too much.

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Seth Manson

You're right man. I really hated the days when Serge would send me $60k checks, I'd pull 50k hits a day from search engines and convert that at 1:200, then switch to ifriends and make $20k - $25k a week, then switch to TCG and compete with WiredGuy over had made the most sales. Things are so much better now.

BBL, gotta make some bullshit tube sites and give all the porn away that I used to get paid for.

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TheDoc

Where did I say things are much better? I'm pretty sure I never wrote that.

And all you did was backup what I just said... In the past, you could easily tap into the traffic stream that was freely open and available for anyone to tap into. It was free, it required almost zero skills, it was simple, it was vast and everyone was sharing.... that's gone, thus your sales are gone.

If you want the numbers back you hand, and for sure others are doing those numbers, then you would need to go where the traffic is today.

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Paul Markham

Seth you have to understand Doc sees the world from his side. He probably needs 10,000s of hits to get a sale. You need 200.

He probably doesn't have your skills to work the search engines and he can't figure out how you could possibly get 50K. So thinks you struggled.

He sees lots of surfers coming to him and doesn't dream they might be coming from you and others. I suspect his ratios are worsening all the time, yet he sees all this traffic coming to him and doesn't understand he's reaching the bottom of the barrel.

He sees the business world posting from home. I saw it working from a 3,500 sq ft studios and office employing 8 people. Same business, different views because of different positions.

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TheDoc

You saw it? Oh then I can say I saw it from my 18,000 sq foot office with 30 staff.. Same business, no... mine was much larger and still is today.

Idiot.


Anyway, where do you get your online experience? What is the most sales/traffic you've ever had? Where do you get off even posting about traffic/sales when you've never done more than a handful?

Fact is this Paul.... you 100% failed online! Without question....

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Paul Markham

Prove it.

An idiot who made a lot of money.


Must of sold $2,000,000 worth of sales online and most without affiliates. Didn't need a lot of traffic and retention IS awesome. And that's just online which was only part of the business. Please say prove it.

You see you only see the world in terms of paysites. I see the world with a much wider lens.

Not bad for an idiot.

Must take you off ignore, you're an amusing clown.

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TheDoc

It's been posted here before, people here have been to it... why would I need to prove it to a nobody?



That's not a lot of money... that's you making a living for yourself, prob no more than 60-80k a year personal take home.



2 million in like 10 years? As I said, you have zero room to be talking about traffic/sales.... I've made millions with sponsors directly, let alone 10's of millions with my own paysites.

Wider lens? How about you quit pretending to know something you clearly have zero clue about.... and I was never on ignore, idiot.

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Roald

Mods should really consider making a "make thread invisible for {username here}" option when you create a new thread lol

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