Do you Ron Paul fans agree? Ron Paul says: Default Now, or Suffer a More Expensive Crisis Later. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

onwebcam · 07-26-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488

the banks who own your politicians will never let the US default.

What if they already got their money via 16.1 trillion in interest free loans? What if the last few years has really been about delaying the crash so they can secure their future because they know that we can't continue on the way things are. That their little scam is up and more and more people everyday are beginning to understand that it's all just one big fucking ponzi scheme.

Caligari · 07-26-2011, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

The massive debt from 50+ years of insanely expensive government social programs is finally coming due.

Totally agree, corporate welfare should have ended a long time ago.

mountainmiester · 07-26-2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

No, thank you.

The military is a legitimate role of government, the Medusa head of snakes known as government funded social programs is NOT.

Agreed that in fact, the Military is one of the few reasons for a federal government. That being said though, at what point does our Military Superiority need to stop? We are in the 4th quarter and up by 100 points. Do we really need to keep putting points on the board? How Superior we need to be?

I'm not sure if that makes sense but to me, the idea of more, more, more with our military at some point needs to stop when we realize we are by far the strongest. Do we really need to keep spending billions on new weapons? More troops perhaps but then again, this is only limited by how many are willing to join. I've never seen a Not Hiring sign on the doors of a military recruiter.

TheSquealer · 07-26-2011, 03:33 PM

Everyone talks about the US as if the US is doing something unique. The simple fact is that many large economies are bordering on default. The EU wasn't in a panic over a Greek default because everyone just happens to love Greece and just felt sympathetic.

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Because the military and the supporting contractors employ millions of people.
In short, we can't because we'd fuck ourselves severely.

And that is one of the biggest problems with our country.

The govt. is now the biggest employer. We have already fucked ourselves severely.

TheSquealer · 07-26-2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbie

and that is one of the biggest problems with our country.

The govt. Is now the biggest employer.

a-fucking-men!

TheSquealer · 07-26-2011, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Absolutely, so the real question is we're already fucked so should we just ride out as much free credit as we can and postpone the inevitable or pull the plug and try to salvage what we have and move forward.

Pull the plug and move forward.

I was in Russia when the government devalued the Ruble and first defaulted on the GKO bonds. Yeltsin gave a speech the night before the Ruble was devalued reassuring everyone that they would not devalue the Ruble and in the morning, the entire financial system was in shambles... I knew many bank presidents that had no idea it was coming. I had a shitload of money tied up in banks that couldn't release any money for months, simply because they had no clue what it was worth... or what it would be worth in 5 minutes or 10 or 15. The streets were red with blood in Moscow and St Petersburg of bank owners who had their licenses yanked by the government and funds seized or assets frozen for being unstable, and/or money laundering banks.

BUT... guess what?

Life went on. Things were weird for a few weeks as an economy relying on imports tried to adjust to the fact that goods were bought at XX.XX$ but had to be sold in Rubles and there was no way they could sell for enough to recoup enough Rubles to convert back to $ to repay the credit lines.

Life went on. Everyone adjusted. Everything adjusted and a few months later, you would have never known it even happened. Out of the ashes rose a stronger, more reliable system and the currency also began to stabilize after almost a decade in a free fall.

The only real problem is "confidence" with currency, investments etc. However, what everyone seems to willfully ignore is that the financial markets don't work that way in an absolute sense. Where confidence erodes, there is opportunity, there will be investment. Where people walk away, other more risk tolerant investors step in. Where people are abandoning a currency, there are no shortage of investors willing to capitalize on the chaos. Where people abandone a market, there are no shortage of investors willing to capitalize.There will NEVER be a collapse... simply an adjustment. The USA is not a 3rd world country. We are part of a very tightly integrated global economy. A cog in a massive machine that will never fail in the sense people seem to think it will/can. A full out default will be a temporary problem and the simple truth is that we will most likely never know it happened or feel it. Chaos is opportunity. Opportunity brings investment. That is always true in a free market economy.

Since everyone in this thread and all the people that think they "know" haven't experienced this stuff first hand or witnessed it or lived through it, I wouldn't take anything said seriously.

Bill8 · 07-26-2011, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And that is one of the biggest problems with our country.

The govt. is now the biggest employer. We have already fucked ourselves severely.

I've heard you make this kind of argument many times.

But I haven't heard you suggest any solutions. Specifically, what is going to provide employment when you kill the federal government?

What tyoes of work do you see americans doing, for whom, and how much will they be paid?

How will they handle retirement?

This same question is open to all you anti-big-government people.

How do you see your 'ideal' unmanaged american economy competing in the world marketplace?

mountainmiester · 07-26-2011, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Because the military and the supporting contractors employ millions of people. If we cut back on the military spending this creates high unemployment. You see everyone thinks entitlement programs are limited to SSI, Medicare, etc. When in fact, towns, cities, and some States will be directly affective with huge unemployment if we cut back the military.

Meaning, if a Military base cuts back or shuts down property values drop, that towns supporting business from restaurants to shopping centers also shut down. It's a domino effect across the board and they now can't pay into the tax system. It would be micro versions of Detroit when the automakers left town in 500 cities and towns across the nation.

To give you a better idea on how much $1.5 trillion dollar military spending equates to, total gross domestic earning of all of Russia $1.4 Trillion.

In short, we can't because we'd fuck ourselves severely.

I'm not saying cut back on Troops, what I said was cut back on expensive weapons developement and waste. Do you realize that each Stealth Bomber (B2) cost $1.5 Billion? As I said, I support the military and am a veteran myself. But the waste is there as much as it is in all government but for some reason, Military Waste is acceptable?

mountainmiester · 07-26-2011, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

How will they handle retirement?

That was the most alarming thing I've seen in days and in fact, hadn't even thought of this. We have mushroomed our government much like the baby boomers mushroomed social security. We all know that the government isn't putting funds aside for latter for this so what happens in 20 year or more when these new hires retire? Holy fuck, this just keeps getting worse.

I'm so getting drunk now.

Bill8 · 07-26-2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainmiester

That was the most alarming thing I've seen in days and in fact, hadn't even thought of this. We have mushroomed our government much like the baby boomers mushroomed social security. We all know that the government isn't putting funds aside for latter for this so what happens in 20 year or more when these new hires retire? Holy fuck, this just keeps getting worse.

I'm so getting drunk now.

Well, the whole concept of retirement is a relatively recent invention. But, a mechanized industrial society needs somnething like it, because it has to break up the extended family into the nuclear family in order to be able to efficiently move workers around to the changing industrial centers.

With the shutting down of the agricultural extended family lifestyle, something like retirement had to be invented.

But, retirement is based on a ponzi model - you HAVE to keep expanding population and energy use in order to pay for your last 2-3 generations of seniors.

So, it's a complex problem to solve.

Right now both republicans and democrats are advocating a type of retirement default, so they can cut out that last few generations from teh ponzi scheme.

And then what - start a new ponzi?

dyna mo · 07-26-2011, 05:05 PM

the military plans to replace 30% of troops with robots by 2014. that should add up to a big increase in costs. not sure why or how but that is how the military works, shit don't get cheaper.

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 05:16 PM

Well the CBO just announced that Boehner's bill does NOT CUT ENOUGH!

So much for anybody saying it was too much. lol

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/26/news..._boehner_bill/

Bill8 · 07-26-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

the military plans to replace 30% of troops with robots by 2014. that should add up to a big increase in costs. not sure why or how but that is how the military works, shit don't get cheaper.

Robots dont need lifelong medicare care, VA benefits, and all the other long term costs of maintaining our military.

Well, technically, we dont use true robots, we use remotely operated weapons systems, and the guy sitting in the trailer with the joystick is still due those lifelong benefits.

But brain and CNS injuries are less likely and that huge cost is reduced. Well except for the repetitive motion injuries.

dyna mo · 07-26-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

Robots dont need lifelong medicare care, VA benefits, and all the other long term costs of maintaining our military.

Well, technically, we dont use true robots, we use remotely operated weapons systems, and the guy sitting in the trailer with the joystick is still due those lifelong benefits.

But brain and CNS injuries are less likely and that huge cost is reduced. Well except for the repetitive motion injuries.

i don't make the rules, nevertheless, i can observe them. fact is, the price of shit stamped military goes up. if you want to argue about the long term costs of a future robot army v. human one, carry on.

tony286 · 07-26-2011, 05:30 PM

They shouldnt be talking about cutting at all. It should be jobs jobs jobs. After WW2 the deficit was much higher 120 % of gdp.The right wants this to be focus because you start cutting now the economy will weaken and they are setting up their win. Unfortunately Obama the weak played right into it.
The right doesnt care about spending , remember Dick Cheney Deficits dont matter. Now I look back I respect that the man at least had balls and a spine.

tony286 · 07-26-2011, 05:31 PM

also privatizing things in the military privates used to do ran up the bill. Before in war grunts cooked for grunts, not kb employees making 80 k a year.

halfpint · 07-26-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Well the CBO just announced that Boehner's bill does NOT CUT ENOUGH!

So much for anybody saying it was too much. lol

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/26/news..._boehner_bill/

wow was just reading some of that article and did not realise it was that bad

An unprecedented number of Americans now depend on the government for assistance. Roughly one in six people are receiving public aid, with Medicaid and food stamps straining in the wake of the Great Recession.

A record 44.6 million people -- or one in seven Americans -- received food stamps in April. That's up nearly 10% from the year before. The government is scheduled to send out $6.7 billion in food and nutrition support, which includes aid for children, pregnant women and new mothers, in August.

Medicaid, the nation's largest safety net program, serves more than 60 million people. It not only provides health insurance for low-income Americans, but it is also the primary payer for two-thirds of the country's nursing home residents. Some $50 billion in Medicaid and Medicare payments are set to go out in August.

Nearly 5 million low-income families depend on vouchers or other assistance from the Department of Housing and Urban Development to keep a roof over their heads. But the $6.7 billion in payments in August could be at risk.

And some 3.8 million of the long-term jobless are receiving federal unemployment benefits, which could be halted if the impasse isn't resolved. They are scheduled to collect $12.8 billion in August.

Bill8 · 07-26-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i don't make the rules, nevertheless, i can observe them. fact is, the price of shit stamped military goes up. if you want to argue about the long term costs of a future robot army v. human one, carry on.

The cost/benefit of a remote and robotized military is just an interesting side issue. But you did bring it up.

Congress won't touch the manufacture of $70k hellfires. Too much profit margin in weapons systems. Thats what, a 70-to-one margin? $69k profit leaves a lot of bribe/re-election money on the table.

All weapons manufacturing has a similar scale of profit margin. And so much of any weapons system is expendable - made to be used up and replaced.

Thats a lot of government guaranteed profit. The most purely socialistic of all economies.

dyna mo · 07-26-2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

The cost/benefit of a remote and robotized military is just an interesting side issue. But you did bring it up.

Congress won't touch the manufacture of $70k hellfires. Too much profit margin in weapons systems. Thats what, a 70-to-one margin? $69k profit leaves a lot of bribe/re-election money on the table.

All weapons manufacturing has a similar scale of profit margin. And so much of any weapons system is expendable - made to be used up and replaced.

Thats a lot of government guaranteed profit. The most purely socialistic of all economies.

i hear ya, sorry, the cost thing comment was more sarcasm than anything.

marketsmart · 07-26-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfpint

wow was just reading some of that article and did not realise it was that bad

An unprecedented number of Americans now depend on the government for assistance. Roughly one in six people are receiving public aid, with Medicaid and food stamps straining in the wake of the Great Recession.

A record 44.6 million people -- or one in seven Americans -- received food stamps in April. That's up nearly 10% from the year before. The government is scheduled to send out $6.7 billion in food and nutrition support, which includes aid for children, pregnant women and new mothers, in August.

Medicaid, the nation's largest safety net program, serves more than 60 million people. It not only provides health insurance for low-income Americans, but it is also the primary payer for two-thirds of the country's nursing home residents. Some $50 billion in Medicaid and Medicare payments are set to go out in August.

Nearly 5 million low-income families depend on vouchers or other assistance from the Department of Housing and Urban Development to keep a roof over their heads. But the $6.7 billion in payments in August could be at risk.

And some 3.8 million of the long-term jobless are receiving federal unemployment benefits, which could be halted if the impasse isn't resolved. They are scheduled to collect $12.8 billion in August.

we need to start letting people die..

the US is a 3rd world country now and we need to start acting like one..

in 3rd world countries, children take care of their parents, not the govt..

if people dont have this support, they die..

the global population is too high anyway..

i have no problems stepping over dead bodies in the street..

.

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfpint

wow was just reading some of that article and did not realise it was that bad

And I'm sad to say that not only do I know a lot of people who are DELIBERATELY living on the dole...I am also ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I have members of my own family doing the same goddamn thing!

It's all kinda fucked up. And I know that there are lots of people out there who DO really need assistance. But I personally don't know them.

I have piece of shit family members who haven't done anything in over ten years. One female in my family has 3 kids, lives in a govt. housing project, gets a check from the govt. to live on, utilities are included in her apartment as well as furnishings, she gets food stamps...and works as a waitress at a local bar for under the table pay and tips.

She will NOT get a legit job that goes on the books because if she did she would lose all the free shit from the govt.

I know a lot of people who are doing the same thing with unemployment benefits. One of the guys I know has been on unemployment for about 3 months now...he isn't even TRYING to find a job. He collects that check and goes and works the flea market on the weekend.

I know I've seen a LOT of this kind of thing both here in Vegas, with people I know in South Carolina where I used to live, and in Florida where my family is. So I'm thinking it's the same everywhere.

I honestly believe that a lot of folks could get work...but just will not. And no, I don't mean they can go out and get a great paying job. But they could WORK for a living if they wanted to. But they have no need to. The govt. has them under control with what I call "welfare".

It's helping to bankrupt our economy in SO many ways and destroying the fiber of our nation as well as screwing people who legitimately NEED help.

TheSquealer · 07-26-2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Great post, seriously.

Look, I'm going to be straight up with you because I am an American born who's been to Russia many times totaling 9 months in a 6 year period and will be back there in late September. The reason I mention this is after reading your post and knowing the culture well, your English tells me in you've been here a long time and makes me wonder why you left? Meaning, you've only "lived" through part of the recovery unless you were an English professor? Obviously, this still makes your post incredibly valid and some wisdom we all should read/learn, because the greatest fear for anyone is always the unknown.

There will be an enormous difference from post Soviet Russia and a post default America. We are currently the world reserve currency and our collapse will cause a symbiotic collapses across the world. Meaning, post Soviet Russia had people to trade with as the outside world was at full steam ahead.

I am not saying they are the same. A constant in "doom and gloom" business is that the hype is always exponentially greater than the reality.

My point was simply that the unthinkable happened and it was no big deal. Before it, people were worried about anarchy, a stray nuclear arsenal, a military revolt, a nation striking, communism coming back, a complete halt on foreign investment, a complete halt on foreign loans and so on and so forth. I could go on forever with the list of concerns. It was going to be the end of the Russian world, just at a time when they were starting to trust banks, inflation was coming under control and the currency was stabilizing, people were getting used to the idea of owning property, when people were trying to bring their money out of the shadows and so on.

My view is that when you get into the "this time its different" discussion, that's no different than voicing any other concern, no matter how reasonable or unreasonable. The hype and concern is always far worse than the reality. Anyone can find reasons why "this time its different" but at the end of the day, a free market adjusts very quickly, investors still invest, markets rebound, currencies recover etc.

Anyway, i seriously doubt the world would skip a beat. I've watched this all happen first hand. The housing market has already collapsed in the US. Did anyone's lives end? Was the world forever changed? Nope. People who couldn't afford the homes they were in lost them. People who couldn't afford their investment properties let them go. Others just walked away from properties under water. It was about as much of a complete meltdown of the housing market as this country has ever seen and at the end of the day, it meant very little in the grand scheme of things.

tony286 · 07-26-2011, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And I'm sad to say that not only do I know a lot of people who are DELIBERATELY living on the dole...I am also ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I have members of my own family doing the same goddamn thing!

It's all kinda fucked up. And I know that there are lots of people out there who DO really need assistance. But I personally don't know them.

I have piece of shit family members who haven't done anything in over ten years. One female in my family has 3 kids, lives in a govt. housing project, gets a check from the govt. to live on, utilities are included in her apartment as well as furnishings, she gets food stamps...and works as a waitress at a local bar for under the table pay and tips.

She will NOT get a legit job that goes on the books because if she did she would lose all the free shit from the govt.

I know a lot of people who are doing the same thing with unemployment benefits. One of the guys I know has been on unemployment for about 3 months now...he isn't even TRYING to find a job. He collects that check and goes and works the flea market on the weekend.

I know I've seen a LOT of this kind of thing both here in Vegas, with people I know in South Carolina where I used to live, and in Florida where my family is. So I'm thinking it's the same everywhere.

I honestly believe that a lot of folks could get work...but just will not. And no, I don't mean they can go out and get a great paying job. But they could WORK for a living if they wanted to. But they have no need to. The govt. has them under control with what I call "welfare".

It's helping to bankrupt our economy in SO many ways and destroying the fiber of our nation as well as screwing people who legitimately NEED help.

you paid for unemployment benefits they are not a gift. its insurance some people paid into for over 20 yrs.

halfpint · 07-26-2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And I'm sad to say that not only do I know a lot of people who are DELIBERATELY living on the dole...I am also ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I have members of my own family doing the same goddamn thing!

It's all kinda fucked up. And I know that there are lots of people out there who DO really need assistance. But I personally don't know them.

I have piece of shit family members who haven't done anything in over ten years. One female in my family has 3 kids, lives in a govt. housing project, gets a check from the govt. to live on, utilities are included in her apartment as well as furnishings, she gets food stamps...and works as a waitress at a local bar for under the table pay and tips.

She will NOT get a legit job that goes on the books because if she did she would lose all the free shit from the govt.

I know a lot of people who are doing the same thing with unemployment benefits. One of the guys I know has been on unemployment for about 3 months now...he isn't even TRYING to find a job. He collects that check and goes and works the flea market on the weekend.

I know I've seen a LOT of this kind of thing both here in Vegas, with people I know in South Carolina where I used to live, and in Florida where my family is. So I'm thinking it's the same everywhere.

I honestly believe that a lot of folks could get work...but just will not. And no, I don't mean they can go out and get a great paying job. But they could WORK for a living if they wanted to. But they have no need to. The govt. has them under control with what I call "welfare".

It's helping to bankrupt our economy in SO many ways and destroying the fiber of our nation as well as screwing people who legitimately NEED help.

We have a similar thing going on over here with the long term unemployed and it pisses me off because I work my ass off, to have some of my taxes going towards keeping those lazy bastards who wont get off thier asses and work. I think they should give people 6 months to get a job and if they dont then stop paying them any money at all, because they dont deserve to be kept by the working people. Im not talking about people who really need help here just the assholes who play the system

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

you paid for unemployment benefits they are not a gift. its insurance some people paid into for over 20 yrs.

No Tony...theoretically they paid for unemployment benefits. What I have read is that unemployment benefits are being extended for months and months now. WAY past what people "paid" into them. Especially some of the people I'm talking about. Guys back in S.C. I know who are the worst drunks you've ever seen...it's disgusting. The people I'm talking about are not decent folks like you, they are true scumbags. And the scumbags outnumber the rest of us.

And don't forget that while people were "paying" into their unemployment benefits...the company that hired them was being forced to not only pay health care...but also MATCH them on their social security taxes to the govt.

The govt. is raking in DOUBLE on Social Security taxes on people who are employed by a business...and STILL going bankrupt.

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfpint

We have a similar thing going on over here with the long term unemployed and it pisses me off because I work my ass off, to have some of my taxes going towards keeping those lazy bastards who wont get off thier asses and work. I think they should give people 6 months to get a job and if they dont then stop paying them any money at all, because they dont deserve to be kept by the working people. Im not talking about people who really need help here just the assholes who play the system

It's just human nature. Most people aren't that ambitious. And if they can get a paycheck and sit on the couch and watch television they WILL. If they know they have a year of checks that they can get...they will wait for exactly one year to go look for a job.

onwebcam · 07-26-2011, 06:57 PM

tony286 · 07-26-2011, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

No Tony...theoretically they paid for unemployment benefits. What I have read is that unemployment benefits are being extended for months and months now. WAY past what people "paid" into them. Especially some of the people I'm talking about. Guys back in S.C. I know who are the worst drunks you've ever seen...it's disgusting. The people I'm talking about are not decent folks like you, they are true scumbags. And the scumbags outnumber the rest of us.

And don't forget that while people were "paying" into their unemployment benefits...the company that hired them was being forced to not only pay health care...but also MATCH them on their social security taxes to the govt.

The govt. is raking in DOUBLE on Social Security taxes on people who are employed by a business...and STILL going bankrupt.

forced to pay to for healthcare? they didnt have to offer it, there is no rule employers have to offer healthcare. Offering healthcare started to attract workers during ww2 by the kaisers.

GAMEFINEST · 07-26-2011, 07:12 PM

I agree with Ron Paul with this statement, Sooner or later we have to default.

dyna mo · 07-26-2011, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onwebcam

hah, young pinkies from columbia & harvard!

tony286 · 07-26-2011, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onwebcam

so this shows its the same old song.

Agent 488 · 07-26-2011, 07:47 PM

the US financial system is now a fantasy, the wealth is imaginary. it always was.

the US should use their military to confiscate the banks and strip the banks of thieir imaginary shackles they have over people and countries.

dyna mo · 07-26-2011, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 488

the US financial system is now a fantasy, the wealth is imaginary. it always was.

the US should use their military to confiscate the banks and strip the banks of thieir imaginary shackles they have over people and countries.

the entire global financial system is a ponzi scheme built on *investor confidence* and printing out dollar bills.

marketsmart · 07-26-2011, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And I'm sad to say that not only do I know a lot of people who are DELIBERATELY living on the dole...I am also ashamed and embarrassed to admit that I have members of my own family doing the same goddamn thing!

It's all kinda fucked up. And I know that there are lots of people out there who DO really need assistance. But I personally don't know them.

I have piece of shit family members who haven't done anything in over ten years. One female in my family has 3 kids, lives in a govt. housing project, gets a check from the govt. to live on, utilities are included in her apartment as well as furnishings, she gets food stamps...and works as a waitress at a local bar for under the table pay and tips.

She will NOT get a legit job that goes on the books because if she did she would lose all the free shit from the govt.

I know a lot of people who are doing the same thing with unemployment benefits. One of the guys I know has been on unemployment for about 3 months now...he isn't even TRYING to find a job. He collects that check and goes and works the flea market on the weekend.

I know I've seen a LOT of this kind of thing both here in Vegas, with people I know in South Carolina where I used to live, and in Florida where my family is. So I'm thinking it's the same everywhere.

I honestly believe that a lot of folks could get work...but just will not. And no, I don't mean they can go out and get a great paying job. But they could WORK for a living if they wanted to. But they have no need to. The govt. has them under control with what I call "welfare".

It's helping to bankrupt our economy in SO many ways and destroying the fiber of our nation as well as screwing people who legitimately NEED help.

i am going to do something i rarely do and that is to come to the defense of the govt..

a big part of the problem is that govt workers that give the thumbs up or thumbs down to extending some benefits just dont have the heart, will power, or intelligence to see past the bullshit..

in my city there is an experiment taking place..

my city has built a $50 million dollar housing project that is privately managed..

this project is a mix of subsidized housing, free housing, and low cost rentals..

if you trash your place, you are kicked out of the program forever..

if you dont pay your rent on time, you are kicked out of the program forever..

i dont know what happens if you are low cost rental and do either of the two aforementioned, but i suspect you will be blacklisted..

everyone is hoping that by privatizing the housing programs, the emotional element will be taken out, but that remains to be seen...

my point is that i believe and support in giving a mad a hand up, but i dont support gining a hand out..

if a person doesnt want to improve their life and is just looking for a free handout paid for by the taxpayers then they should be left to deal with the same problems that most americans have to deal with..

and that is that they end up homeless..

if people die because they dont want to contribute, then so be it..

it sad for the kids that are brought into this world by no choice of their own..

maybe we can find a solution for them, but i have no compassion for someone who shits out kids knowing they will be unable to support them and rely on the govt to fix their problems..

my brother taught school for two years in low income school districts while he was getting his masters and he was amazed and diseheartened by all the kids that he taught that were told by their single parents that they were worthless and would end up just like their deadbeat fathers...

their single parents had no desire for their children to be better than they were and basically had no desire to learn..

as soon as he finished his masters he quite and moved on to corporate life..

those kids were a lost cause and no matter how much money was thrown at the problem, those attitudes could not be changed..

at some point we as a people must understand that we need to cut our loses and accept the fact that some cannot be saved and move on to the ones that can be saved..

at some point we, as a society, need to realize that spending $20 million dollars to help one child make it is not worth the cost and that if we are to make forward progress, then some people are not going to make it with or without help....

.

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 08:54 PM

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the folks who want to raise taxes are right.

Let's take a look at how much money we owe...this should be easy enough to tax it all away and just keep on spending

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

marketsmart · 07-26-2011, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the folks who want to raise taxes are right.

Let's take a look at how much money we owe...this should be easy enough to tax it all away and just keep on spending

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

raising taxes will only work if there is major reform to spending..

and that is the challenge...

.

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marketsmart

raising taxes will only work if there is major reform to spending..

and that is the challenge...

.

True...but TODAY the U.S. govt. spent around 10 BILLION dollars. And took in "only" 5 BILLION dollars.

So while they are arguing about the debt...they just keep on spending more than they have! It's total bullshit and they should all be in prison. Every damn one of them from both political parties because they are all crooks.

Robbie · 07-26-2011, 09:53 PM

Is there any way to even collect 5 BILLION more dollars in taxes PER DAY???

I'm not sure that if the govt. decided to steal ALL of our money and from every company in the U.S. that it would be able to pay just what they are spending RIGHT NOW. Much less the actual debt and interest on that debt.

They need to STOP SPENDING.

Doctor Dre · 07-26-2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

I'm gonna throw this out here....

Years ago when I was like twenty-five my monthly bills was physically more than my monthly income. Every time something went wrong - car broken down, etc - I went further into debt. The only obvious solution was bankruptcy. Everyone warned me about how bad it would be, blah blah blah, but in reality the moment I declared bankruptcy I became the best creditor ever - I had no debt, and I had healthy income. Instantly I was flooded with offers for new credit cards. (I should note that I haven't had credit cards since then!)

It's the same thing with US debt. We can't pay this off, and the best we can hope for is to carry on making these interest payments. Why not just default on these loans? Most of these loans is held by other countries - if we default, it fucks them, not us. And don't tell me that "no one will ever do business with the US again" - Of course they will.

And don't tell me that the US economy will collapse. If I default on my loans, I still have income, still have money, and still have a bank account. If we default on a $18 trillion loan to Taiwan, I'll still get paid next week.

But man, if we go this route... Obama will never recover.

Most of the debt is held by US taxpayers. The majority of it beeing the retirement founds of your fellow americans, that were PAID for by taxpayers and 'borrowed' by your gov.

What you guys need to do is get the hell out of policing the world, and invest in your country. Your departement of defense is what, 10x your dep of education ? big problem there.

Interest payment are about 9% of what you guys pay in expenses. That's nothing to default on.

Bill8 · 07-26-2011, 11:14 PM

Well lets just hope that pussy obama doesn't let boehner assfuck him, that he calls the republican bluff, and lets the republicans drive us into the debt ceiling.

Because it's the only thing that will teach americans anything.

The republicans want the federal government to collpase, the dems should let them collapse it.

Thats not what is going to hapen, this is all theatre playing to the envy and gullibility of the average americans. Obama will cave totally and give the republicans more than they asked for in cuts, with the merest token of tax increases.

Bill8 · 07-26-2011, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Pull the plug and move forward.

I was in Russia when the government devalued the Ruble and first defaulted on the GKO bonds.

Since everyone in this thread and all the people that think they "know" haven't experienced this stuff first hand or witnessed it or lived through it, I wouldn't take anything said seriously.

You don't think that the fact that the US and Europe were there to help makes a current US collapse quite different from the russian collapse?

When Russia collapsed the rest of the worlds economomy was in a robust stage, oil was cheap, money was flowing around the planet, and there was a line of countries who wanted to buy into russias plentiful oil and gas and sell to their people who had been deprived of consumer goods for 50 years.

We have comparitively much less immature natural resources than russia did then, russia had always lived lean and its people were tougher than we americans.

I wonder who you think is going to come to america and invest trillions in us? And who will be our Putin to throw out the oligarchs and the carpetbaggers, and reassert control over the oil and gas?

I figure an american collapse is coming, but I don't expect russia to come to our aid when it does.

TheSquealer · 07-27-2011, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

I wonder who you think is going to come to america and invest trillions in us? And who will be our Putin to throw out the oligarchs and the carpetbaggers, and reassert control over the oil and gas?

First, I was not comparing the US to Russia or the situations to each other. I've stated that a few times now.

Who will invest in the US?

This is exactly my point. Everyone in the world with money to invest. Money flowed into Russia because of the opportunity to invest in a emerging market. What you are ignoring or forgetting is that people continued to invest in Russia after the collapse in the absolute worst of circumstances. A failed currency (and where law requires you to do transactions in that currency). A tax system that made no sense. No property rights. A nonsensical body of laws. No working legal system. No shareholders rights. No functioning banking system and so on. The entire country was broken from top to bottom and ran by hardcore criminals. That did not slow down investment. People and money follow opportunity. The USA has none of the obstacles to investment that Russia did.

To ask "who will invest in the USA" is the same as asking a question like "who would invest in the worlds largest market for consumer products" - the answer to a question like that is quite simple... everyone across the world with something to sell to consumers.

My point is simply that the market will adjust and correct very quickly and even if there was a full and complete collapse of the economy / financial system due to a default and its effects would be short lived and barely felt.

Relentless · 07-27-2011, 06:00 AM

Robbie,

If we don't raise the debt ceiling we default in AUGUST.
Even if we make the most massive spending cuts that anyone has recommended we would still default in AUGUST.

Spending cuts are absolutely necessay. They won't be large enough or take effect fast enough to avoid default unless we also borrow more in August.
The time to cut spending was back when we were initiating two unfunded wars and dumping a trillion dollars in Iraq.
We had a budget SURPLUS under Clinton and not only dud we fail to pay down debt with it, we increased out debt dramatically.

If you believe we must pay our obligations and live within our means (as I do), it will require cutting spending, raising taxes AND borrowing more money for a period of years not months before we are back to where we should be. We will not fix decades of broken fiscal policy with two weeks of fiscal respondibility.

On the other hand, even if you mistakenly believe everything can be fixed with spending cuts, making all the cuts needed to avoid defaulting in AUGUST would leave senior citizens, poor people, veterans and others suddenly without the money they rely on to pay their own bills. The glib answer is 'fuck em' but the reality is when they all fail to pay their bills the people who planned to collect from them now cant pay their bills and the entire economy collapses from the bottom up. Add in much higher rates on any debts and downgraded financials and you quickly have a massive depression with breadlines that will make the potato famine era feel like a walk in the park.

We need a ten year fiscal plan. Not a two week, two month or two year plan that kicks the can down th road to the next election.

Robbie · 07-27-2011, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

Robbie,

If we don't raise the debt ceiling we default in AUGUST.

What I keep repeating...is that today they will once again SPEND 10 billion dollars and bring in revenue of 5 billion.

How the hell can they defend that when we are so far in debt already? If they stopped spending
(you know...bring back the troops from Afghanistan: Bin Laden is dead,
bring back the troops from Iraq: Saddam Hussein is dead & there were no weapons of mass destruction,
stop bombing Libya: they didn't attack us,
bring the troops home from Germany and Japan: We won WW2 in the 1940's, and the list goes on and on and on) then maybe we wouldn't have to BORROW MORE MONEY to a pay for the money we already owe.

Also...I have watched several folks on CNN flat out say that the "debt ceiling" is something that we created to STOP borrowing money. But every time we hit it...it gets raised!

So my question would be...with revenue coming into the feds in August of 174 BILLION dollars, couldn't they simply STOP SPENDING twice the amount they are bringing in and instead use some of THAT money to pay the interest on the debt and NOT go into default and NOT go further into debt?

Nobody seems to be talking about the fact that if we raise the debt ceiling we are digging even deeper into debt with absolutely no way to ever pay it off.

That is my understanding. And yeah, I "get it" that IF we were to default it could be disastrous. But the self imposed "debt ceiling" (that has never been adhered to) and defaulting on the nations loans are two different things.

How about we simply don't spend double what we bring in everyday and instead pay the debt with the revenue that is already coming in? But to the money hungry politicians in Washington D.C. that is just crazy talk! lol

We can't keep borrowing to pay for money we borrowed. Nobody can. And those politicians can keep spinning it anyway they want...but common sense and mathematics shows that it won't work. They have to stop spending now.

TheSquealer · 07-27-2011, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

We need a ten year fiscal plan. Not a two week, two month or two year plan that kicks the can down th road to the next election.

We also need a world where puppies never get hit by trucks and where children never cry.

However, when you have a 4 year election cycle and an ignorant electorate that demands/expects results in months, not years - the system itself is heavily weight towards short term, feel good reactions to long term problems and there will never be long term planning.

Robbie · 07-27-2011, 06:28 AM

Guys, I have to wonder about this...didn't they originally create the "debt ceiling" as a way to stop Congress from spending too much? And they have just ignored it and raised it every year for decades?

So what is to stop the next President or Congress a few years down the line from tossing a ten year plan in the garbage and just "raising" the spending levels just like they are doing with the "debt ceiling"

I don't think that Washington D.C. is going to stop until this country is completely in shambles.

EDIT: Also when the govt. is spending 303 Billion dollars per month...how is "cutting" a couple of hundred billion per year going to do anything to get us OUT of debt? Shouldn't we be cutting about 4 trillion right NOW?
I'm just doing the math here...

alessergod · 07-27-2011, 07:03 AM

It's only about screwing over Obama. An amendment to the Constitution requiring a balanced budget would take years to pass. 2/3rds of the States have to ratify it. So making it sound like it is the cure of all our ills is BS. The Republicans could not give a rats ass about submitting a budget that requires no deficit. They asked Bachman who is railing like hell about not raising the debt ceiling. When asked if she would submit a budget that would not exceed the debt limit and agree to submit only balanced budgets she hemmed and hawed and then said she would try. It's all part of the plan to make sure Obama is a one term President. Mitch McConnell, the GOP's head dude in the Senate has said as much. He said their number one priority is to make Obama fail. So to hell with the Country as long as the GOP wins. Sorry state of affairs if you ask me.

dyna mo · 07-27-2011, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Guys, I have to wonder about this...didn't they originally create the "debt ceiling" as a way to stop Congress from spending too much? And they have just ignored it and raised it every year for decades?

So what is to stop the next President or Congress a few years down the line from tossing a ten year plan in the garbage and just "raising" the spending levels just like they are doing with the "debt ceiling"

I don't think that Washington D.C. is going to stop until this country is completely in shambles.

EDIT: Also when the govt. is spending 303 Billion dollars per month...how is "cutting" a couple of hundred billion per year going to do anything to get us OUT of debt? Shouldn't we be cutting about 4 trillion right NOW?
I'm just doing the math here...

another thing to add in to this equation is the crumbling infrastructure. 60 year old shit that was built with an engineered lifespan of ~50 years.

cost to bring everything to 2011 standards: $20 trillion

i happen to think this is our only way out and was beyond surprised to see how few tarp resources were put to this in 2008+. but a new energy breakthrough and a new deal sort of government would stave off a meltdown, although i do agree with thesquealer, we would all adjust to life after.

tony286 · 07-27-2011, 10:26 AM

Cut the taxes that will bring the jobs back!
Wait ge paid no taxes 2010
And now they are moving their radiology headquarters from america to china
Hmmmmm

07-26-2011, 05:16 PM	#63
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	Well the CBO just announced that Boehner's bill does NOT CUT ENOUGH! So much for anybody saying it was too much. lol http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/26/news..._boehner_bill/ __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

07-26-2011, 05:30 PM	#66
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	They shouldnt be talking about cutting at all. It should be jobs jobs jobs. After WW2 the deficit was much higher 120 % of gdp.The right wants this to be focus because you start cutting now the economy will weaken and they are setting up their win. Unfortunately Obama the weak played right into it. The right doesnt care about spending , remember Dick Cheney Deficits dont matter. Now I look back I respect that the man at least had balls and a spine. Last edited by tony286; 07-26-2011 at 05:32 PM..

07-26-2011, 06:57 PM	#78
onwebcam Fake Nick 1.0 Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Rent free, your head Posts: 27,655	__________________ PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF..... ██████████████████▒ 99.5% complete.

07-26-2011, 07:12 PM	#80
GAMEFINEST Make STACK$ Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: sexy time Posts: 14,424	I agree with Ron Paul with this statement, Sooner or later we have to default. __________________ Compound interest.

07-26-2011, 08:54 PM	#86
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the folks who want to raise taxes are right. Let's take a look at how much money we owe...this should be easy enough to tax it all away and just keep on spending http://www.usdebtclock.org/ __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

07-26-2011, 03:33 PM	#54
TheSquealer BANNED Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In Your Head Posts: 25,141	Everyone talks about the US as if the US is doing something unique. The simple fact is that many large economies are bordering on default. The EU wasn't in a panic over a Greek default because everyone just happens to love Greece and just felt sympathetic.

07-26-2011, 05:05 PM	#62
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 64,650	the military plans to replace 30% of troops with robots by 2014. that should add up to a big increase in costs. not sure why or how but that is how the military works, shit don't get cheaper.

07-26-2011, 05:31 PM	#67
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	also privatizing things in the military privates used to do ran up the bill. Before in war grunts cooked for grunts, not kb employees making 80 k a year.

07-26-2011, 07:47 PM	#83
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	the US financial system is now a fantasy, the wealth is imaginary. it always was. the US should use their military to confiscate the banks and strip the banks of thieir imaginary shackles they have over people and countries.

07-26-2011, 09:53 PM	#89
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	Is there any way to even collect 5 BILLION more dollars in taxes PER DAY??? I'm not sure that if the govt. decided to steal ALL of our money and from every company in the U.S. that it would be able to pay just what they are spending RIGHT NOW. Much less the actual debt and interest on that debt. They need to STOP SPENDING. __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

07-26-2011, 11:14 PM	#91
Bill8 Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,901	Well lets just hope that pussy obama doesn't let boehner assfuck him, that he calls the republican bluff, and lets the republicans drive us into the debt ceiling. Because it's the only thing that will teach americans anything. The republicans want the federal government to collpase, the dems should let them collapse it. Thats not what is going to hapen, this is all theatre playing to the envy and gullibility of the average americans. Obama will cave totally and give the republicans more than they asked for in cuts, with the merest token of tax increases.

07-27-2011, 06:00 AM	#94
Relentless www.EngineFood.com Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,697	Robbie, If we don't raise the debt ceiling we default in AUGUST. Even if we make the most massive spending cuts that anyone has recommended we would still default in AUGUST. Spending cuts are absolutely necessay. They won't be large enough or take effect fast enough to avoid default unless we also borrow more in August. The time to cut spending was back when we were initiating two unfunded wars and dumping a trillion dollars in Iraq. We had a budget SURPLUS under Clinton and not only dud we fail to pay down debt with it, we increased out debt dramatically. If you believe we must pay our obligations and live within our means (as I do), it will require cutting spending, raising taxes AND borrowing more money for a period of years not months before we are back to where we should be. We will not fix decades of broken fiscal policy with two weeks of fiscal respondibility. On the other hand, even if you mistakenly believe everything can be fixed with spending cuts, making all the cuts needed to avoid defaulting in AUGUST would leave senior citizens, poor people, veterans and others suddenly without the money they rely on to pay their own bills. The glib answer is 'fuck em' but the reality is when they all fail to pay their bills the people who planned to collect from them now cant pay their bills and the entire economy collapses from the bottom up. Add in much higher rates on any debts and downgraded financials and you quickly have a massive depression with breadlines that will make the potato famine era feel like a walk in the park. We need a ten year fiscal plan. Not a two week, two month or two year plan that kicks the can down th road to the next election. __________________ Website Secure \| Engine Food ICQ# 266-942-896

07-27-2011, 06:28 AM	#97
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	Guys, I have to wonder about this...didn't they originally create the "debt ceiling" as a way to stop Congress from spending too much? And they have just ignored it and raised it every year for decades? So what is to stop the next President or Congress a few years down the line from tossing a ten year plan in the garbage and just "raising" the spending levels just like they are doing with the "debt ceiling" I don't think that Washington D.C. is going to stop until this country is completely in shambles. EDIT: Also when the govt. is spending 303 Billion dollars per month...how is "cutting" a couple of hundred billion per year going to do anything to get us OUT of debt? Shouldn't we be cutting about 4 trillion right NOW? I'm just doing the math here... __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com Last edited by Robbie; 07-27-2011 at 06:29 AM..

07-27-2011, 07:03 AM	#98
alessergod Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Where you won't find me. Posts: 229	It's only about screwing over Obama. An amendment to the Constitution requiring a balanced budget would take years to pass. 2/3rds of the States have to ratify it. So making it sound like it is the cure of all our ills is BS. The Republicans could not give a rats ass about submitting a budget that requires no deficit. They asked Bachman who is railing like hell about not raising the debt ceiling. When asked if she would submit a budget that would not exceed the debt limit and agree to submit only balanced budgets she hemmed and hawed and then said she would try. It's all part of the plan to make sure Obama is a one term President. Mitch McConnell, the GOP's head dude in the Senate has said as much. He said their number one priority is to make Obama fail. So to hell with the Country as long as the GOP wins. Sorry state of affairs if you ask me. __________________ Have you ever seen a "Harley" parked in front of a Physchiatrists Office?

07-27-2011, 10:26 AM	#100
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	Cut the taxes that will bring the jobs back! Wait ge paid no taxes 2010 And now they are moving their radiology headquarters from america to china Hmmmmm