Entitlement vs Self-Attribution Fallacy - GoFuckYourself.com

Brujah · 01-29-2012, 03:26 PM

If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. The claims that the ultra-rich 1% make for themselves ? that they are possessed of unique intelligence or creativity or drive ? are examples of the self-attribution fallacy. This means crediting yourself with outcomes for which you weren?t responsible. Many of those who are rich today got there because they were able to capture certain jobs. This capture owes less to talent and intelligence than to a combination of the ruthless exploitation of others and accidents of birth, as such jobs are taken disproportionately by people born in certain places and into certain classes.

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/th...ution-fallacy/

u-Bob · 01-29-2012, 04:59 PM

No true advocate of a free market would ever claim that hard work leads to wealth. If you spend an entire day digging a hole in the ground, will that make your wealthy? No, but you sure will have worked hard.

Creation of wealth is a result of people consuming less than they produce. The difference is what we call capital or capital goods. This capital allows them to spend time on long(er) term projects (like building a fishing boat instead of using a simple fishing rod).

By focusing their energy on what they can do best and trading with others who also focus on what they do best, individuals can maximize their income and reduce opportunity costs.

Trading with others implies that individuals produce products or deliver services other individuals want and are willing to give something in exchange for. The better an individual can predict what others in society will want, the more profit he can make and the less of his time and capital he will waste.

bronco67 · 01-29-2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brujah

If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. The claims that the ultra-rich 1% make for themselves ? that they are possessed of unique intelligence or creativity or drive ? are examples of the self-attribution fallacy. This means crediting yourself with outcomes for which you weren?t responsible. Many of those who are rich today got there because they were able to capture certain jobs. This capture owes less to talent and intelligence than to a combination of the ruthless exploitation of others and accidents of birth, as such jobs are taken disproportionately by people born in certain places and into certain classes.

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/th...ution-fallacy/

I'd agree, because a large percentage of those 1% don't actually create anything. They just move money around and work the system.

TheSquealer · 01-29-2012, 05:26 PM

sixsax · 01-29-2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

No true advocate of a free market would ever claim that hard work leads to wealth. If you spend an entire day digging a hole in the ground, will that make your wealthy? No, but you sure will have worked hard.

Creation of wealth is a result of people consuming less than they produce. The difference is what we call capital or capital goods. This capital allows them to spend time on long(er) term projects (like building a fishing boat instead of using a simple fishing rod).

By focusing their energy on what they can do best and trading with others who also focus on what they do best, individuals can maximize their income and reduce opportunity costs.

Trading with others implies that individuals produce products or deliver services other individuals want and are willing to give something in exchange for. The better an individual can predict what others in society will want, the more profit he can make and the less of his time and capital he will waste.

So there are smart motherfuckers in here as well. Good for my blood pressure.

12clicks · 01-29-2012, 06:32 PM

If you clowns spent less time worrying about your betters and more time working, uh............well you still wouldn't succeed but at least you'd be looking less silly.
Trust me, the successful spend no time wondering why you failed

slapass · 01-29-2012, 07:03 PM

He is ignoring relativity. Some rise and some fall in a given population and it is not all based on luck.

12clicks · 01-30-2012, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapass

He is ignoring relativity. Some rise and some fall in a given population and it is not all based on luck.

Very little is based in luck

Robbie · 01-30-2012, 11:44 PM

All this talk lately is just bullshit.

Reality is...since I was a kid in school I could see with my own two eyes that there are winners and losers in life. It's just the way it is (at least in the United States).

Some people are just downright lazy and/or dumb.

Worker bees.

And some people have excelled all their lives.
And nothing breeds success like success does. The more you "win" the more you are able to win in the future. And the reverse is also true.

Some people are just downright focused on working and moving ahead. They work 24 hours a day 7 days a week. And then the majority (the 99% if you will) are all working for the weekend and can't wait for the end of the workday on Monday through Friday and pretty much fuck off at work most of the day.

Human nature I suppose. There are "leaders" and there are "followers" and that's just the way it is.

epitome · 01-31-2012, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

No true advocate of a free market would ever claim that hard work leads to wealth. If you spend an entire day digging a hole in the ground, will that make your wealthy? No, but you sure will have worked hard.

Creation of wealth is a result of people consuming less than they produce. The difference is what we call capital or capital goods. This capital allows them to spend time on long(er) term projects (like building a fishing boat instead of using a simple fishing rod).

By focusing their energy on what they can do best and trading with others who also focus on what they do best, individuals can maximize their income and reduce opportunity costs.

Trading with others implies that individuals produce products or deliver services other individuals want and are willing to give something in exchange for. The better an individual can predict what others in society will want, the more profit he can make and the less of his time and capital he will waste.

Edit: shit on my phone. Quoted wrong post? Supposed to be OP. Sorry Bob.

The father (now deceased) and son I know who started a construction company in their garage in the 70s and now have 10k employees and $2 billion a year in revenue would disagree.

They were just two hardworking guys who started small and focused on getting large.

Took 35 years but it's still a private company and the family still controls 60%.

Just two blue collar guys (now white) that did what they had to do.

raymor · 01-31-2012, 01:34 AM

My dad went from dirt poor to private jet rich.

Working really hard at short term goals and spending dumb after skipping school will of course just pay your bills, not make you rich.

On the other hand, virtually everyone who is rich worked their ass off to get there. My dad grew up in a hut with a dirt floor. They looked forward to Sundays, when they'd have meat with dinner. Normally, the meat was something they shot or trapped. Seriously dirt poor. He worked 50 hours a week to pay for going to school full time. One job he had was janitor - scrubbing toilets to pay to learn math. Twenty-five years later, he took me and the rest of the family with him on the corporate jet. He WORKED his way to being a VP of a major company. Part of that hard work was in school.

That's how 99% of rich people get rich - by not only working their ass off at the job, but by working just as heard to learn more so they can move up. I've worked jobs basically for free if I could learn from them.

About one person out of a million luck out after first working real hard and become major stars of movies or sports. These very few appear mega-rich beyond the work they put in. Considering on average they'll spend fifteen years preparing for stardom that lasts three years, it's not as out of whack as it seems, but big stars are very, very rare. They often feel, rightly, that they are rich (for a little while) partly due to luck.

Big stars or other "lucky rich" are extremely rare, though. Just a few hundred people. Rich normally means working for a good education while working more to pay tuition and books, then working more to put that education to use, working harder than the other guy who also wants the promotion.

Barefootsies · 01-31-2012, 06:22 AM

Pearls before swine.

arock10 · 01-31-2012, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymor

My dad went from dirt poor to private jet rich.

Working really hard at short term goals and spending dumb after skipping school will of course just pay your bills, not make you rich.

On the other hand, virtually everyone who is rich worked their ass off to get there. My dad grew up in a hut with a dirt floor. They looked forward to Sundays, when they'd have meat with dinner. Normally, the meat was something they shot or trapped. Seriously dirt poor. He worked 50 hours a week to pay for going to school full time. One job he had was janitor - scrubbing toilets to pay to learn math. Twenty-five years later, he took me and the rest of the family with him on the corporate jet. He WORKED his way to being a VP of a major company. Part of that hard work was in school.

That's how 99% of rich people get rich - by not only working their ass off at the job, but by working just as heard to learn more so they can move up. I've worked jobs basically for free if I could learn from them.

About one person out of a million luck out after first working real hard and become major stars of movies or sports. These very few appear mega-rich beyond the work they put in. Considering on average they'll spend fifteen years preparing for stardom that lasts three years, it's not as out of whack as it seems, but big stars are very, very rare. They often feel, rightly, that they are rich (for a little while) partly due to luck.

Big stars or other "lucky rich" are extremely rare, though. Just a few hundred people. Rich normally means working for a good education while working more to pay tuition and books, then working more to put that education to use, working harder than the other guy who also wants the promotion.

Not to knock your story, but any idea how many people get rich like this versus the amount of people that are simply born into wealth?

DamageX · 01-31-2012, 07:03 AM

Crusoe economics.

BlackCrayon · 01-31-2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epitome

Edit: shit on my phone. Quoted wrong post? Supposed to be OP. Sorry Bob.

The father (now deceased) and son I know who started a construction company in their garage in the 70s and now have 10k employees and $2 billion a year in revenue would disagree.

They were just two hardworking guys who started small and focused on getting large.

Took 35 years but it's still a private company and the family still controls 60%.

Just two blue collar guys (now white) that did what they had to do.

their success can probably be traced back to get a number of key jobs that really moved them forward. without those specific jobs they might still be a father and son construction company. in my opinion life in general works like this. you are only one step away from success or total failure at any given time. even a small what seems like meaningless decision could make or break it down the road but you can't see it at the time.

and like robbie says, there are worker bees who generally just accept the position in which they were born into. ever hear people say, we aren't 'those' kind of people (ie rich). these people just accept that a decent paying job is the most they'll achieve because its the most their parents and grandparents ever achieved. others, like myself and many here refuse to accept that and no matter if we succeed or fail, we continue to try. not everyone who works hard towards a goal will succeed, no matter how many times they try and some will succeed on the first go, some on the 50th and some will just give up but its not cut and dry as to, if you have drive you will succeed. its not as simple as that.

DamianJ · 01-31-2012, 07:12 AM

Sales of 1% milk have dropped by a third since the Occupy movement started. Food for thought.

Fletch XXX · 01-31-2012, 07:29 AM

this year will be more successful than any.

looking forward to this year very much. new projects, new clients, new future!

u-Bob · 01-31-2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

Not to knock your story, but any idea how many people get rich like this versus the amount of people that are simply born into wealth?

Human life is not some sort of race or game in which each person should start from an identical mark. It is an attempt by each man to be as happy as possible. And each person could not begin from the same point, for the world has not just come into being; it is diverse and infinitely varied in its parts. The mere fact that one individual is necessarily born in a different place from someone else immediately insures that his inherited opportunity cannot be the same as his neighbor's. The drive for equality of opportunity would also require the abolition of the family since different parents have unequal abilities; it would require the communal rearing of children. The State would have to nationalize all babies and raise them in State nurseries under 'equal' conditions. But even here conditions cannot be the same, because different State officials will themselves have different abilities and personalities. And equality can never be achieved because of necessary differences of location.
-Murray N. Rothbard

Barefootsies · 01-31-2012, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

this year will be more successful than any.

looking forward to this year very much. new projects, new clients, new future!

Congrats toe you fine sire.

12clicks · 01-31-2012, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

Not to knock your story, but any idea how many people get rich like this versus the amount of people that are simply born into wealth?

the number of people born into wealth is so tiny as to not be a valid number for a discussion like this.
If you don't like the position your mom bore you into, blame her, not your betters.

If you don't like what you achieved in life, blame yourself, not your betters.

porno jew · 01-31-2012, 11:52 AM

they are talking about the real elites there, not the people who pretend to be ones on this board. if you are posting here you are not part of the 0.0001% or related, even distantly.

Shotsie · 01-31-2012, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

Human life is not some sort of race or game in which each person should start from an identical mark. It is an attempt by each man to be as happy as possible. And each person could not begin from the same point, for the world has not just come into being; it is diverse and infinitely varied in its parts. The mere fact that one individual is necessarily born in a different place from someone else immediately insures that his inherited opportunity cannot be the same as his neighbor's. The drive for equality of opportunity would also require the abolition of the family since different parents have unequal abilities; it would require the communal rearing of children. The State would have to nationalize all babies and raise them in State nurseries under 'equal' conditions. But even here conditions cannot be the same, because different State officials will themselves have different abilities and personalities. And equality can never be achieved because of necessary differences of location.
-Murray N. Rothbard

Free-market principles pre-suppose that the government should not even attempt to level the playing field. His logic is that because there can NEVER truly be a level playing field that we should make no attempt to even try? What a piece of shit that guy is.

12clicks · 01-31-2012, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porno jew

they are talking about the real elites there, not the people who pretend to be ones on this board. if you are posting here you are not part of the 0.0001% or related, even distantly.

u-Bob · 01-31-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotsie

Free-market principles pre-suppose that the government should not even attempt to level the playing field. His logic is that because there can NEVER truly be a level playing field that we should make no attempt to even try? What a piece of shit that guy is.

It's impossible to "level the playing field" simply because we are all individuals. We are all different. And we all grow up in different environments. We all grow up amongst people who are individuals themselves (and thus all different). Every individual has his own strengths and weaknesses, goals, hopes, dreams, fears, preferences, abilities etc.

Some see opportunities where others don't. Some like to eat hamburgers, others prefer steak. Some like expensive jewelry, others prefer shells from the beach. Some like working outdoors, other hate the rain/wind/cold. Some like to spend a lot of time with their families, others prefer to focus on other things. Some like to travel and explore the world, others prefer to stay at home.

The whole egalitarian notion of equality and leveling the playing field either ignores some of the basic facts of life or is an excuse used by envious people to commit heinous acts of aggression.

Or as Rothbard put it:

The diversity of mankind is a basic postulate of our knowledge of human beings. But if mankind is diverse and individuated, then how can anyone propose equality as an ideal? Every year, scholars hold Conferences on Equality and call for greater equality, and no one challenges the basic tenet. But what justification can equality find in the nature of man? If each individual is unique, how else can he be made 'equal' to others than by destroying most of what is human in him and reducing human society to the mindless uniformity of the ant heap?
-Murray N. Rothbard

CurrentlySober · 01-31-2012, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epitome

Edit: shit on my phone...

Good man ! Baby steps... Now you have done your phone, work towards doing it in your bed

raymor · 01-31-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

Not to knock your story, but any idea how many people get rich like this versus the amount of people that are simply born into wealth?

I don't recall the exact numbers I read, but something like 95% of millionaires made less than $100,00 and saved. 90% or so are first generation millionaires.

raymor · 01-31-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

...
even a small what seems like meaningless decision could make or break it down the road but you can't see it at the time.

and like robbie says, there are worker bees who generally just accept the position in which they were born into. ever hear people say, we aren't 'those' kind of people (ie rich). these people just accept that a decent paying job is the most they'll achieve because its the most their parents and grandparents ever achieved. others, like myself and many here refuse to accept that and no matter if we succeed or fail, we continue to try. not everyone who works hard towards a goal will succeed, no matter how many times they try and some will succeed on the first go, some on the 50th and some will just give up but its not cut and dry as to, if you have drive you will succeed. its not as simple as that.

In my opinion, using English will help you get ahead. You may think it doesn't matter if you write sentences or not. Yet, the people who get rich are people who take care to do it right - to write actual sentences . If you're not rich, try doing what they do.

Quote:

their success can probably be traced back to get a number of key jobs that really moved them forward. without those specific jobs they might still be a father and son construction company. in my opinion life in general works like this. you are only one step away from success or total failure at any given time. even a small what seems like meaningless decision could make or break it down the road but you can't see it at the time.

We never no the long term effects of one specific instance of a specific decision. With hundreds of small decisions made every day, that's not what matters, though. PRINCIPLES matter. For example, we don't know WHEN we'll have a car accident. However, we know that always wearing a seatbelt and driving safely is smart. The construction guys who went on to own a successful construction company probably didn't know which people would turn out to be important customers, but they knew that by treating all people fairly would be good for their business in the long run.

raymor · 01-31-2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

Not to knock your story, but any idea how many people get rich like this versus the amount of people that are simply born into wealth?

I looked it up. 80% are first generation millionaires:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_110333.html

Of the other 20%, most LEARNED good habits from their parents, doing what their parents did, and earned their own wealth.
Just as some kids learn from their parents that spending $25 / week on lottery tickets is normal, others learn that saving $25 starting from their very first pay check is normal.

Very, very few, hundreds of people in the US, inheirit a bunch of wealth and never work.

Some, like myself, are "born into wealth" in that I was born into a family that taught me good habits and such.
Still, I decided I'd rather smoke pot and quit school. I ended up living in the woods, under a tarp. I had a dirt floor
just like my dad did when he was growing up. That was the result of my choices, of course, and the (lack of) effort I put in.

Later, I worked 60 hours a week while going to college. Then I worked 65 hours a week building a business.
At work, I'm now called "sir". That's also due to my decisions and the effort I put in.

porno jew · 01-31-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12clicks

and that is incorrect how? sorry if you are a roofer you are not part of the power elite.

Barefootsies · 01-31-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymor

We never no the long term effects of one specific instance of a specific decision. With hundreds of small decisions made every day, that's not what matters, though. PRINCIPLES matter. For example, we don't know WHEN we'll have a car accident. However, we know that always wearing a seatbelt and driving safely is smart. The construction guys who went on to own a successful construction company probably didn't know which people would turn out to be important customers, but they knew that by treating all people fairly would be good for their business in the long run.

Open up a history book.

1. See how many of the great fortunes in this country were made.
2. See how those people treated their employees.
3. How they were looked on by their contemporaries.

Here are a few to wet your appetite sport.

1. Manwin
2. Rockefeller (Standard Oil)
3. Bill Gates (Microsoft)
4. Steve Jobs (Apple)
5. Bush Family
6. Kennedy Clan

Let's see in regards to these "principals".... doing business with the Nazi's, rum runners, anti competitive practices, theft/borrowing, etc. and so on.

Yep. Looks like you're on to something champ.

PR_Glen · 01-31-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

Not to knock your story, but any idea how many people get rich like this versus the amount of people that are simply born into wealth?

being born into wealth isn't anything new... hating on them doesn't get you anywhere.

We are living in a time and in a place where the small guy can become the guy with wealth and success. It wasn't long ago where this was nearly impossible, and in many areas of the world it is still like this.

Hard work has never been enough... it takes the right dream, persistence and the drive to want more.

12clicks · 01-31-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porno jew

and that is incorrect how? sorry if you are a roofer you are not part of the power elite.

raymor · 01-31-2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Glen

being born into wealth isn't anything new... hating on them doesn't get you anywhere.

We are living in a time and in a place where the small guy can become the guy with wealth and success. It wasn't long ago where this was nearly impossible, and in many areas of the world it is still like this.
.

Indeed people like Abraham Lincoln, for example, may have been more rare.

raymor · 01-31-2012, 05:07 PM

Here's the biggest thing in this whole topic:

Both sides are correct.
If you decide that "they" are your problem, you are fucked, because because you can't do anything about them. Your situation can never improve if they are to blame.

If you decide that your actions matter, only then do you have a chance. If you resign yourself to being a failure because that's your fate, your right. If you decide your attitude and your hard work can get you ahead, you will also be right.

clicker · 01-31-2012, 05:16 PM

Wealth building topics are inspirational, especially if you have had small advancements towards your goals.
That means you can have larger ones. Good luck!!!

uno · 01-31-2012, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

Sales of 1% milk have dropped by a third since the Occupy movement started. Food for thought.

skim, 1 or 2% milk are all absolutely disgusting. Fat is completely removed then reinjected in proper proportions for those types.

uno · 01-31-2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Glen

being born into wealth isn't anything new... hating on them doesn't get you anywhere.

We are living in a time and in a place where the small guy can become the guy with wealth and success. It wasn't long ago where this was nearly impossible, and in many areas of the world it is still like this.

Hard work has never been enough... it takes the right dream, persistence and the drive to want more.

Trust fund kids have afforded me way more social opportunities than just about anyone else. <3 them.

raymor · 02-01-2012, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Open up a history book.
...

Here are a few to wet your appetite sport.

1. Manwin
2. Rockefeller (Standard Oil)
3. Bill Gates (Microsoft)
4. Steve Jobs (Apple)
5. Bush Family
6. Kennedy Clan

Let's see in regards to these "principals"....

Open up a dictionary and learn English, then we can talk. Once you know the difference between principals and principles, between wet and whet, maybe we can have an intelligent conversation. Better though if first you stop getting your "facts" from Coast to Coast AM.

stocktrader23 · 02-01-2012, 12:23 AM

If 12clicks was born a poor kid in Africa he'd still have grown up to be a moderately wealthy, white has been in America.

Seriously folks, a shit ton of success is based on pure fucking luck. What family were you born into, what opportunities did you have, who did you meet along the way that loaned you some knowledge, etc. Hard work and street smarts can do a lot but neither guarantee you will make great money. Too many factors, way too many.

If you want to see the idiotic attitudes here in fast forward go keep an eye on hot shot poker players. They win for 6 months or a year and think they are so much smarter than everyone then those darn statistics kick in and you never see them win shit again. With millions of people fighting to be successful you will have some that can't lose on pure luck, some that are really brilliant, some that work hard and it works and most that get where they are from a combination of the three.

Even what Robbie says, true to an extent. But his millionaire ass is nobody to the billionaires that also think they are thousands of times smarter than everyone else. To them he is as poor and stupid as the guy working at McDonalds.

Standard deviation, look it up.

DamageX · 02-01-2012, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Open up a history book.

1. See how many of the great fortunes in this country were made.
2. See how those people treated their employees.
3. How they were looked on by their contemporaries.

Here are a few to wet your appetite sport.

1. Manwin
2. Rockefeller (Standard Oil)
3. Bill Gates (Microsoft)
4. Steve Jobs (Apple)
5. Bush Family
6. Kennedy Clan

Let's see in regards to these "principals".... doing business with the Nazi's, rum runners, anti competitive practices, theft/borrowing, etc. and so on.

Yep. Looks like you're on to something champ.

You forgot Henry Ford who, at the time, paid the highest salaries in the country (world?). AFAIK his employees didn't exactly complain. It's all about a free market and competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stocktrader23

If 12clicks was born a poor kid in Africa he'd still have grown up to be a moderately wealthy, white has been in America.

Seriously folks, a shit ton of success is based on pure fucking luck. What family were you born into, what opportunities did you have, who did you meet along the way that loaned you some knowledge, etc. Hard work and street smarts can do a lot but neither guarantee you will make great money. Too many factors, way too many.

If you want to see the idiotic attitudes here in fast forward go keep an eye on hot shot poker players. They win for 6 months or a year and think they are so much smarter than everyone then those darn statistics kick in and you never see them win shit again. With millions of people fighting to be successful you will have some that can't lose on pure luck, some that are really brilliant, some that work hard and it works and most that get where they are from a combination of the three.

Even what Robbie says, true to an extent. But his millionaire ass is nobody to the billionaires that also think they are thousands of times smarter than everyone else. To them he is as poor and stupid as the guy working at McDonalds.

Standard deviation, look it up.

Standard deviation it is!

epitome · 02-01-2012, 12:38 AM

I don't disagree that there are worker bees and they are happy with that. I saw my Mom always excel in every management job she had and tried to push her to open her own business but she was happy with working for someone else.

There are also different personalities at the senior management level. If I owned a big company I would hire a CEO and assume the COO position. I am less interested in coming up with the big picture and more interested in building efficient systems. I would make the COO position as powerful as the CEO position (some companies do that) but I prefer being told where we are going and then figure out how to get there.

Shotsie · 02-01-2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

It's impossible to "level the playing field" simply because we are all individuals. We are all different. And we all grow up in different environments. We all grow up amongst people who are individuals themselves (and thus all different). Every individual has his own strengths and weaknesses, goals, hopes, dreams, fears, preferences, abilities etc.

Some see opportunities where others don't. Some like to eat hamburgers, others prefer steak. Some like expensive jewelry, others prefer shells from the beach. Some like working outdoors, other hate the rain/wind/cold. Some like to spend a lot of time with their families, others prefer to focus on other things. Some like to travel and explore the world, others prefer to stay at home.

The whole egalitarian notion of equality and leveling the playing field either ignores some of the basic facts of life or is an excuse used by envious people to commit heinous acts of aggression.

Or as Rothbard put it:

The diversity of mankind is a basic postulate of our knowledge of human beings. But if mankind is diverse and individuated, then how can anyone propose equality as an ideal? Every year, scholars hold Conferences on Equality and call for greater equality, and no one challenges the basic tenet. But what justification can equality find in the nature of man? If each individual is unique, how else can he be made 'equal' to others than by destroying most of what is human in him and reducing human society to the mindless uniformity of the ant heap?
-Murray N. Rothbard

What does any of that have to do with providing basic needs for people like education, housing, food, clothes, etc.?

epitome · 02-01-2012, 12:45 AM

As a sidenote:

I am reading Warren Buffets biography right now. I never realized he was a congressman's son. I always thought he was somebody that came from nothing.

He was a privileged kid. Not from a wealthy family from what I can tell, but they had amazing connections.

Anybody can make something of themselves, but a lot of people do have doors opened for them.

While anybody determined enough can open the doors for themselves, I think you get further faster if someone is opening them for you.

u-Bob · 02-01-2012, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotsie

What does any of that have to do with providing basic needs for people like education, housing, food, clothes, etc.?

Unless they somehow managed to abolish scarcity and there are now unlimited supplies of iron, bricks, steel, wood, cotton,..., vegetables, meat and teachers that are willing to work for free, your statement implies that you are OK with the state taking away the property of some (people who have earned it) to give it away to others.

Not only is that an act of aggression, from an economic point of view it also leads to a destruction of capital in society.

DamageX · 02-01-2012, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

Unless they somehow managed to abolish scarcity and there are now unlimited supplies of iron, bricks, steel, wood, cotton,..., vegetables, meat and teachers that are willing to work for free, your statement implies that you are OK with the state taking away the property of some (people who have earned it) to give it away to others.

Not only is that an act of aggression, from an economic point of view it also leads to a destruction of capital in society.

Seriously man, why do you even bother? The vast majority of the people on here hardly understand the mere words you're saying, much less the entire posts. I know you're trying to enlighten some, but seriously, you can only expect so much understanding from monkeys.

Shotsie · 02-01-2012, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

your statement implies that you are OK with the state taking away the property of some (people who have earned it) to give it away to others.

Yes, that is what I believe, and that is what has been proven to work. Not all that theoretical mises bullshit.

Shotsie · 02-01-2012, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamageX

Seriously man, why do you even bother? The vast majority of the people on here hardly understand the mere words you're saying, much less the entire posts. I know you're trying to enlighten some, but seriously, you can only expect so much understanding from monkeys.

Oh, I understand him perfectly. I just don't agree. There's a difference, you know.

stocktrader23 · 02-01-2012, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

your statement implies that you are OK with the state taking away the property of some (people who have earned it) to give it away to others.

Not only is that an act of aggression, from an economic point of view it also leads to a destruction of capital in society.

As he should be and you are too. Did you pay for the road in front of your house? Do you care to refund poor people that can't afford a car but still pay for your road? Just one example out of too many to mention, please take my money and build a better society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamageX

Seriously man, why do you even bother? The vast majority of the people on here hardly understand the mere words you're saying, much less the entire posts. I know you're trying to enlighten some, but seriously, you can only expect so much understanding from monkeys.

We understand the words fine, they are just wrong.

12clicks · 02-01-2012, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stocktrader23

If 12clicks was born a poor kid in Africa he'd still have grown up to be a moderately wealthy, white has been in America.

Seriously folks, a shit ton of success is based on pure fucking luck.

Ah yes, the "luck" excuse of the unaccomplished.

BlackCrayon · 02-01-2012, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymor

In my opinion, using English will help you get ahead. You may think it doesn't matter if you write sentences or not. Yet, the people who get rich are people who take care to do it right - to write actual sentences . If you're not rich, try doing what they do.

We never no the long term effects of one specific instance of a specific decision. With hundreds of small decisions made every day, that's not what matters, though. PRINCIPLES matter. For example, we don't know WHEN we'll have a car accident. However, we know that always wearing a seatbelt and driving safely is smart. The construction guys who went on to own a successful construction company probably didn't know which people would turn out to be important customers, but they knew that by treating all people fairly would be good for their business in the long run.

Sorry professor. Please don't knock me down to a C. Aren't you the guy who thinks going to college is the way to success? If that was the case 70% of the young population would be successful, including those dirty educated hippies in the occupy movement. Most of the very rich did not do so well in school and did not find it very important. I can write much better if i took my time but I don't in such cases as long as i can get my ideas across, thats all that matters to me.

And as for small decisions...everything can be traced back. I wouldn't be working online if i didn't get into trouble with the law and was forced by law to not hang out with my friends and needed something else to do. I would never of known how much money there was to be made in adult if not for an email someone i didn't even know sent me after signing up to their mainstream free hosting. Hell if my dad wasn't friends with a guy who was so into computers maybe i never would of had the internet in my home to have the chance to do any of that until much later. Its all connected. None of this was a conscious decision towards anything but its part of what took me to a place where i was working for myself and making much more money than my peers.

01-29-2012, 03:26 PM	#1
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	Entitlement vs Self-Attribution Fallacy If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire. The claims that the ultra-rich 1% make for themselves ? that they are possessed of unique intelligence or creativity or drive ? are examples of the self-attribution fallacy. This means crediting yourself with outcomes for which you weren?t responsible. Many of those who are rich today got there because they were able to capture certain jobs. This capture owes less to talent and intelligence than to a combination of the ruthless exploitation of others and accidents of birth, as such jobs are taken disproportionately by people born in certain places and into certain classes. http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/th...ution-fallacy/ __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

01-29-2012, 05:26 PM	#4
TheSquealer BANNED Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In Your Head Posts: 25,083	__________________ . Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens. Rochard

01-29-2012, 06:32 PM	#6
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,781	If you clowns spent less time worrying about your betters and more time working, uh............well you still wouldn't succeed but at least you'd be looking less silly. Trust me, the successful spend no time wondering why you failed __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

01-30-2012, 11:44 PM	#9
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,958	All this talk lately is just bullshit. Reality is...since I was a kid in school I could see with my own two eyes that there are winners and losers in life. It's just the way it is (at least in the United States). Some people are just downright lazy and/or dumb. Worker bees. And some people have excelled all their lives. And nothing breeds success like success does. The more you "win" the more you are able to win in the future. And the reverse is also true. Some people are just downright focused on working and moving ahead. They work 24 hours a day 7 days a week. And then the majority (the 99% if you will) are all working for the weekend and can't wait for the end of the workday on Monday through Friday and pretty much fuck off at work most of the day. Human nature I suppose. There are "leaders" and there are "followers" and that's just the way it is. __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

01-31-2012, 01:34 AM	#11
raymor Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,745	My dad went from dirt poor to private jet rich. Working really hard at short term goals and spending dumb after skipping school will of course just pay your bills, not make you rich. On the other hand, virtually everyone who is rich worked their ass off to get there. My dad grew up in a hut with a dirt floor. They looked forward to Sundays, when they'd have meat with dinner. Normally, the meat was something they shot or trapped. Seriously dirt poor. He worked 50 hours a week to pay for going to school full time. One job he had was janitor - scrubbing toilets to pay to learn math. Twenty-five years later, he took me and the rest of the family with him on the corporate jet. He WORKED his way to being a VP of a major company. Part of that hard work was in school. That's how 99% of rich people get rich - by not only working their ass off at the job, but by working just as heard to learn more so they can move up. I've worked jobs basically for free if I could learn from them. About one person out of a million luck out after first working real hard and become major stars of movies or sports. These very few appear mega-rich beyond the work they put in. Considering on average they'll spend fifteen years preparing for stardom that lasts three years, it's not as out of whack as it seems, but big stars are very, very rare. They often feel, rightly, that they are rich (for a little while) partly due to luck. Big stars or other "lucky rich" are extremely rare, though. Just a few hundred people. Rich normally means working for a good education while working more to pay tuition and books, then working more to put that education to use, working harder than the other guy who also wants the promotion. Last edited by raymor; 01-31-2012 at 01:44 AM..

01-29-2012, 04:59 PM	#2
u-Bob there's no $$$ in porn Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: icq: 195./568.-230 (btw: not getting offline msgs) Posts: 33,063	No true advocate of a free market would ever claim that hard work leads to wealth. If you spend an entire day digging a hole in the ground, will that make your wealthy? No, but you sure will have worked hard. Creation of wealth is a result of people consuming less than they produce. The difference is what we call capital or capital goods. This capital allows them to spend time on long(er) term projects (like building a fishing boat instead of using a simple fishing rod). By focusing their energy on what they can do best and trading with others who also focus on what they do best, individuals can maximize their income and reduce opportunity costs. Trading with others implies that individuals produce products or deliver services other individuals want and are willing to give something in exchange for. The better an individual can predict what others in society will want, the more profit he can make and the less of his time and capital he will waste.

01-29-2012, 07:03 PM	#7
slapass Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 14,627	He is ignoring relativity. Some rise and some fall in a given population and it is not all based on luck.

01-31-2012, 06:22 AM	#12
Barefootsies Choice is an Illusion Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Land of Obama Posts: 42,635	Pearls before swine. __________________ Should You Email Your Members? Link1 \| Link2 \| Link3 Enough Said. "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

01-31-2012, 07:03 AM	#14
DamageX Marketing & Strategy Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Former nomad Posts: 14,293	Crusoe economics. __________________ Whitehat is for chumps If you don't do it, somebody else will - true story!

01-31-2012, 07:12 AM	#16
DamianJ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land Posts: 15,808	Sales of 1% milk have dropped by a third since the Occupy movement started. Food for thought.

01-31-2012, 07:29 AM	#17
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	this year will be more successful than any. looking forward to this year very much. new projects, new clients, new future! __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

01-31-2012, 11:52 AM	#21
porno jew Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,166	they are talking about the real elites there, not the people who pretend to be ones on this board. if you are posting here you are not part of the 0.0001% or related, even distantly.

01-31-2012, 05:07 PM	#34
raymor Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,745	Here's the biggest thing in this whole topic: Both sides are correct. If you decide that "they" are your problem, you are fucked, because because you can't do anything about them. Your situation can never improve if they are to blame. If you decide that your actions matter, only then do you have a chance. If you resign yourself to being a failure because that's your fate, your right. If you decide your attitude and your hard work can get you ahead, you will also be right. __________________ For historical display only. This information is not current: support@bettercgi.com ICQ 7208627 Strongbox - The next generation in site security Throttlebox - The next generation in bandwidth control Clonebox - Backup and disaster recovery on steroids

01-31-2012, 05:16 PM	#35
clicker Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Virtual Posts: 1,113	Wealth building topics are inspirational, especially if you have had small advancements towards your goals. That means you can have larger ones. Good luck!!! Last edited by clicker; 01-31-2012 at 05:19 PM..

02-01-2012, 12:23 AM	#39
stocktrader23 Let's do some business. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The dirty south. Posts: 18,781	If 12clicks was born a poor kid in Africa he'd still have grown up to be a moderately wealthy, white has been in America. Seriously folks, a shit ton of success is based on pure fucking luck. What family were you born into, what opportunities did you have, who did you meet along the way that loaned you some knowledge, etc. Hard work and street smarts can do a lot but neither guarantee you will make great money. Too many factors, way too many. If you want to see the idiotic attitudes here in fast forward go keep an eye on hot shot poker players. They win for 6 months or a year and think they are so much smarter than everyone then those darn statistics kick in and you never see them win shit again. With millions of people fighting to be successful you will have some that can't lose on pure luck, some that are really brilliant, some that work hard and it works and most that get where they are from a combination of the three. Even what Robbie says, true to an extent. But his millionaire ass is nobody to the billionaires that also think they are thousands of times smarter than everyone else. To them he is as poor and stupid as the guy working at McDonalds. Standard deviation, look it up. __________________ Hands Free Adult - Join Once, Earn For Life "I try to make a habit of bouncing my eyes up to the face of a beautiful woman, and often repeat “not mine” in my head or even verbally. She’s not mine. God has her set aside. She’s not mine. She’s His little girl, and she needs me to fight for her by keeping my eyes where they should be."

02-01-2012, 12:38 AM	#41
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,158	I don't disagree that there are worker bees and they are happy with that. I saw my Mom always excel in every management job she had and tried to push her to open her own business but she was happy with working for someone else. There are also different personalities at the senior management level. If I owned a big company I would hire a CEO and assume the COO position. I am less interested in coming up with the big picture and more interested in building efficient systems. I would make the COO position as powerful as the CEO position (some companies do that) but I prefer being told where we are going and then figure out how to get there.

02-01-2012, 12:45 AM	#43
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,158	As a sidenote: I am reading Warren Buffets biography right now. I never realized he was a congressman's son. I always thought he was somebody that came from nothing. He was a privileged kid. Not from a wealthy family from what I can tell, but they had amazing connections. Anybody can make something of themselves, but a lot of people do have doors opened for them. While anybody determined enough can open the doors for themselves, I think you get further faster if someone is opening them for you.