directfiesta

At least you are honest enough to say what it is: conquer!

To conquer is a belligirous act ( act of war) done by a dictator... just like Sadam Hussein did...

scooby doo as scooby does

This is so amazing on so many levels...

1) The US & UK have absolutely no idea whether Saddam has WMD (intelligence is a fraud, months and months to show inspectors where to search but can't).

2) That presumably well-educated MI6 employees are stupid enough to release the stuff without re-writing.

3) That everyday folks on here and in the street are stupid enough to still believe it's about WMD despite their being absolutely no proof, and much to the contrary.

I've always thought it was about Oil. Now I'm certain. In a way I feel sorta better now I'm completely convinced. At least I now know hundreds of thousands are going to die for the US/UK standard of living, and not just on a moronic politicians guess about weapons.

(kinda explains the US raising the terror alert tho, lets divert attention!!! Maybe ).

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kenny

Does it really matter? There are many ways to look at it, many motives that can be assumed. The outcome will remain the same.
World domination will come when nuclear fussion replaces a large percentage of the demand for oil. When the majority of automobiles and jets run from alternative fuel. The middle east will become worthless. Countries banned from nuclear power will be forced to produce and export what the super powers tell them to in exchange for basic resources. When technology capabilities become more important then natural resources thats when the world will be tied together. Nations that prove hostile agaisnt the super powers will fall in ruin, and then they will be taken over.
This is my forecast of the future world economy. When technology takes over. What do you think of my long term estimates?

directfiesta

Makes sense ... much more sense then a lot of the post like" Sadam is a dictator, Sadam is a rapist... ": the US didn't give a shit before the Kuwait invasion, why should they know.

Yes, OIL today, Nuclear tomorrow . In the past, it was : spices ( England Empire) , sugar ( England in the carribean Islands ).

But another ressource that is going to be valuable: water ....

So yes, the Middle East is unvaluable now, and of no value in a few decenies.

BrutalMaster

It is also important to understand that, although the US does not get as much oil from the Middle East as many people think, Middle Eastern oil is used by other nations to a great extent. If that oil supply were interrupted, or halted, the pressure on the world oil markets would be enormous. So, in many ways, this is a sort of red herring arguement...that the US doesn't really import much oil from the Middle East.

In other words, if for example the Saudis are exporting most of their oil to Europe then that frees up other oil for the North American market.

Oil is a world market commodity, unlike some other commodities...so who buys from were is not as important as a stable market worldwide. Of course, the real question then becomes, would a war in Iraq, or anywhere else in the Middle East destabilize the world oil market to the extent it damaged all importing nations.

This lesson in realpolitic has been brought to you by GFY

Brutal

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JOH

Iraq, has been distributing oil for many years for humanitarian needs (sanctioned by the United Nations) and has little effect on supplies. Speculate what may occur when the "Iraq War" starts, the remaining OPEC countries will make up the loss as they did with Veneusala(sp).

Those who say it?s for "Oil? don't understand global economics.

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wonton

Iraq's current output has minimal effect on world supplies because they can only sell a limited amount of oil under the UN oil for food program. Iraq's refinery equipment is also in poor condition due to war damage and 12 years of sanctions and are operating far, far below optimum capacity. The US, UK, France, China and Russia all know this and each has a major stake in upping Iraqi output and getting that oil out of the ground. Russia, China and France are going the route of dealing with the current regime through various contracts and trying to upgrade Iraqi refineries. These countries have a lot to lose if war breaks out.

The US is choosing an alternate strategy and has a lot to gain. They are going for broke and will take a huge risk by launching all out war in a bid to dominate Iraqi oil fields 100% They will install a military government which will eventually give way to a puppet regime.

LadyMischief

Goodness knows Canada has a lot more oil to give. I'm from Alberta, and have not only worked for several large oil companies, but still have business ties etc with people who still work for exploration/extraction companies. They are forced to cap at least 3/4 of the wells due to "lack of demand". Worst comes to worst, why not tap into the resources that are being overlooked.


Oh wait. Politics. Hmm.

Well, that should get Alberta's economy back on track a bit I guess.

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theking

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by theking


Reasons for war.

#1. Iraq was defeated on the field of battle and signed certain terms. Iraq has been in violation of those terms since they signed the terms in '91. The USA has demanded that those terms be complied with and that Iraq remain a defeated country.

#2. Iraq attempted to assasinate a former American President.

#3. Iraq has fired upon, almost daily, for almost 11 years, USA military forces.

#4. Iraq is believed to have, or are acquiring, or are attempting to acquire WMD's. The USA will not allow that.

#5. Iraq has, on multiple occassions called for Americans, to be killed where ever they are found. Thus they are a sworn enemy of the USA.

#6. Iraq is a strategic piece of real estate for future military operations against our enemies in the region, which number in the 100's of millions.

#7. Iraq is a strategic piece of real estate for its oil fields and for the surrounding oil fields, for as the worlds oil supplies dwindle the USA will be in a position to control the dwindling oil supplies for its use and the use of its European allies.

#8. A take over of Iraq sends a very powerful signal to the other countries in that area of the world that if they don't get their act together they will be next.

Any one of the reasons above is a reason for war.
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by theking


Proof of WMD's

During the first round of inspections after after the first gulf war, Iraq admitted that they had x number of tons/liters etc. of different types of chemical and different types of biological materials on hand as well as x number of chemical rockets/artillary rounds. The first round of inspections over saw the destruction of much of this material and weapons, but they were not allowed to finish the job. Iraq has now said that they took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining weapons and materials since 1998. They do not have the documentation to prove this and said that they destroyed the documentation when they destroyed the materials and weapons. Even if it were true that they destroyed the documentation of the destruction of the materials and weapons there would still be the physical evidence of the destruction of the these materials and weapons, which they have failed to present evidence of. There would also be those scientists and engineers etc. that would have been involved in the destruction of these materials and Iraq has failed to present these people that would have been involved in the destruction of the materials and weapons. Bottom line is they had chemical and biological materials and weapons, admitted that they had them, the first round of inpsections oversaw the destruction of much of the materials and weapons, but they were kicked out before the remaining materials and weapons were destroyed, and Iraq has yet to present one iota of proof that they in fact took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining chemical and biological materials and weapons, thus without proof that they did in fact destroy them (which is their burden as imposed in the last UN resolution) we the US and anyone with an ounce of brains must assume that they still have them, and may have even produced more of them since 1998.
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by theking


Some reasons why we may not be presenting clear cut proof to the UN, our "allies" and the world public.

I of course do not know what crystal clear proof may or may not exist such as photographs, but I do know that if we have black and white proof and presented that proof (even in secret to "allies") that information would have a good chance of being leaked and what are now targets would be dispersed and hidden so the opportunity to take them out will have been lost and as a result they could be used against our forces.

It has been reported that our CIA and military have outlined more than 700 targets to be hit, many of which are suspected, if not factually known to store chemical, biological materials or weapons. If we began to present this target list to the UN or to the world public or even to some of our "allies" those targets would not exist when it came time to attack them as they would have been cleaned of whatever they may now contain.

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by theking


We are not going it alone.

The President does not act in a vacuum and cannot act without the backing of the American people, which he has, the backing of congress, which he has (they gave him the thumbs up on Iraq several months ago), the backing of his cabinet, which he has, the backing of the justice department and the courts (the President cannot violate the constitution or the law), which he has, and at this point in time he has the backing of the UN Security Counsel (15-0). Nine countries at this point in time are committing troops, twenty-two other countries are offering other types of support. There will be more come on board before all is said and done. If I remember correctly there were only 38 countries that either committed troops and/or other types of support in the first gulf war. At this point in time we have the committment of 31 countries and counting.
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PornoDoggy

So, "king", you are undaunted by the fact that the intelligence report by Britain could be a fraud? You don't find that in the least disturbing? Hell, I'm in favor of the war (I think), and I find that disturbing. Of course, my reasons for supporting the war are the result of a thought-out process, and not the result of being a right-wing bobblehead for every sorry ass idea that gets wrapped up in the flag. I can assure you that my reasons for war are not racial/ethnic/religious.

Sorry, Charlie ... if JFK could ignore the security weenies in '62 and show the world what we had, GW could do it too.

theking

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by theking


Proof of WMD's

During the first round of inspections after after the first gulf war, Iraq admitted that they had x number of tons/liters etc. of different types of chemical and different types of biological materials on hand as well as x number of chemical rockets/artillary rounds. The first round of inspections over saw the destruction of much of this material and weapons, but they were not allowed to finish the job. Iraq has now said that they took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining weapons and materials since 1998. They do not have the documentation to prove this and said that they destroyed the documentation when they destroyed the materials and weapons. Even if it were true that they destroyed the documentation of the destruction of the materials and weapons there would still be the physical evidence of the destruction of the these materials and weapons, which they have failed to present evidence of. There would also be those scientists and engineers etc. that would have been involved in the destruction of these materials and Iraq has failed to present these people that would have been involved in the destruction of the materials and weapons. Bottom line is they had chemical and biological materials and weapons, admitted that they had them, the first round of inpsections oversaw the destruction of much of the materials and weapons, but they were kicked out before the remaining materials and weapons were destroyed, and Iraq has yet to present one iota of proof that they in fact took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining chemical and biological materials and weapons, thus without proof that they did in fact destroy them (which is their burden as imposed in the last UN resolution) we the US and anyone with an ounce of brains must assume that they still have them, and may have even produced more of them since 1998.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read it again. They had the WMD's in 1998 when the inspectors were kicked out. 1441 puts the burden on Iraq to prove that they have in fact destroyed the WMD's they had in 1998. 1441 places the burden 100% on Iraq. 1441 does not ask or require the US, the UN, or the inspectors to prove anything, zero, zilch. The inspectors are not there to find anything, they are there to oversee the destruction of materials and weapons that Iraq still had in their possesion in 1998. The burden is upon Iraq to present these materials and weapons to the inspectors or to present proof that they in fact destroyed them as they have stated. They have not presented one iota of proof. Read 1441 it is online. I repeat the burden is on Iraq to present proof and not anyone else at all.

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PornoDoggy

I ask you again - does it not disturb you that the British "intelligence summary" could very well turn out to be a fraud?

I repeat again - if JFK could ignore the advice of the security weenies and display the U2 photos and other data to the world, GW should do exactly the same.

I am sorry if you don't have a canned post to respond.

JOH

Puppet regime, the Kurds? You may have some basis for your theory, but don't the people of Iraq have a better way of life after Saddam? Life of a countries people means more then "Oil", is neglecting human?s freedoms to exist more important!

Escalation of war is brought on by many events, those have all added up to remove Saddamm Husien, we here have answers but I may be wrong, as you may be inaccurate in your summation of events.

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theking

No. If it is true some heads will role.

Do you not understand that the US, the UN nor the inspectors are required to show anything, or prove anything. Read 1441. Iraq has to prove that it in fact destroyed the remaining chemical, biological and missiles/artillary that were armed with chemicals that were still in their possesion in 1998. In addtition did you not watch the entire presentation made to the UN, replete with "photos and other data".

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Undutchable

Check this out, America has also used fake evidence to support the first Gulf War. A 5 times pullitzer nominee and renowned journalist, Jean Heller has discovered this. For the details, have a look at this Guardian article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...,853885,00.htm

Also, the Swedish Sipiri Institute has released a statement saying that some of the evidence put forward by powell was from the nineties...

theking

Read.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by theking


Proof of WMD's

During the first round of inspections after after the first gulf war, Iraq admitted that they had x number of tons/liters etc. of different types of chemical and different types of biological materials on hand as well as x number of chemical rockets/artillary rounds. The first round of inspections over saw the destruction of much of this material and weapons, but they were not allowed to finish the job. Iraq has now said that they took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining weapons and materials since 1998. They do not have the documentation to prove this and said that they destroyed the documentation when they destroyed the materials and weapons. Even if it were true that they destroyed the documentation of the destruction of the materials and weapons there would still be the physical evidence of the destruction of the these materials and weapons, which they have failed to present evidence of. There would also be those scientists and engineers etc. that would have been involved in the destruction of these materials and Iraq has failed to present these people that would have been involved in the destruction of the materials and weapons. Bottom line is they had chemical and biological materials and weapons, admitted that they had them, the first round of inpsections oversaw the destruction of much of the materials and weapons, but they were kicked out before the remaining materials and weapons were destroyed, and Iraq has yet to present one iota of proof that they in fact took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining chemical and biological materials and weapons, thus without proof that they did in fact destroy them (which is their burden as imposed in the last UN resolution) we the US and anyone with an ounce of brains must assume that they still have them, and may have even produced more of them since 1998.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read it again. They had the WMD's in 1998 when the inspectors were kicked out. 1441 puts the burden on Iraq to prove that they have in fact destroyed the WMD's they had in 1998. 1441 places the burden 100% on Iraq. 1441 does not ask or require the US, the UN, or the inspectors to prove anything, zero, zilch. The inspectors are not there to find anything, they are there to oversee the destruction of materials and weapons that Iraq still had in their possesion in 1998. The burden is upon Iraq to present these materials and weapons to the inspectors or to present proof that they in fact destroyed them as they have stated. They have not presented one iota of proof. Read 1441 it is online. I repeat the burden is on Iraq to present proof and not anyone else at all.

Wrong. There are almost two billion muslims. Several hundred million of them are our enemies.

We will be quite happy to oblige them and send them to their deaths. Will we lose some people in the process, yes, but if they seriously piss us off we will turn the entire muslim world into ash and glass.

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Undutchable

I'm sure that you will, but genocide isn't an easy thing to pull off diplomatically. By the way, there are about 1.1 billion muslims in the world, not 2... However one thing about them, they stick together. You cannot go to war with half of them, they will most likely unite when an internation jihad is declared. Think about it, all they need is one leader to unify them and we're all seriously fucked. No my friend, I don't think it'll be easy to fix this little situation once we unleash it..

Captain Evil

What a stupid comment.

scooby doo as scooby does

Quote:
-------------
Do you not understand that the US, the UN nor the inspectors are required to show anything, or prove anything. Read 1441. Iraq has to prove that it in fact destroyed the remaining chemical, biological and missiles/artillary that were armed with chemicals that were still in their possesion in 1998. In addtition did you not watch the entire presentation made to the UN, replete with "photos and other data".
-----------------

I've read 1441 from cover to cover, NO WHERE in it does it say Iraq has to prove anything. This is another piece of BS people pick up on TV from politicians justifying war.

1441 says Iraq has to produce documentation for a load of stuff. That they have done. The US claims there are holes and incorrect data. That may be true, but 1441 says nothing about what to do if there is a dispute about the documentation provided except it's upto the security council to judge and the inspectors to check.

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theking

The 1.1 billion may or may not be true just as the 1.7 billion that I saw from some source just a few days ago may or may not be true, but the numbers are not really relevant. If the muslim world unites against us and in turns acts against us that is when the enitire muslim world will be turned into ash and glass by pushing a few buttons. The world needs to understand that the USA will not tolerate being fucked with. Fuck with us a little and will will only kill a few hundred thousand, fuck with us a lot and we will destroy you. By the way I do not view it as being genocide. I view it as killing peoples that are trying to kill us. Don't kill us and we won't destroy you. Seems like a pretty simple thing to understand.

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theking

Re-read it and pay attention to detail this time. Actually do not re-read it. For people of your ilk and the haters of the USA there will be no convincing you. Guess what. The USA should not care, and does not care what the UN has to say about the matter. The administration made it abunduntanly clear from the word go that it will remove Saddam with or without the approval of the UN, with or without allies and several months ago the congress voted to give him this authority. This whole UN thing is just a courtesy and will not alter the decision that was made many months ago.

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theking

Stupid...maybe, but true.

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Captain Evil

Nice of you to include all children in the ones to be destroyed. Shows your moral position pretty clearly.

Oh, and do you have any idea what would happen if "the entire muslim world" was nuked? Humanity would die out completely, imbecile. Between radiation, nuclear winter and a few other nice things like that, not many Americans would survive either.

And, ofcourse, a position like this solves nothing. Try to exterminate people, and they will fight you with everything they have, because they have no other option. It would bring a whole new definition to terrorism.

scooby doo as scooby does

Quote: Re-read it and pay attention to detail this time.

Um, any backup to that, cos I would genuinely like to find the passage that says 'prove it', or were you just BS'ing ?

Quote: For people of your ilk and the haters of the USA there will be no convincing you.

Hahhahah. I love the US. Lived and worked in Raleigh for a long while. I wish Britain was more like the US in lots of ways.

Quote: This whole UN thing is just a courtesy

Again, I am genuinely curious, why did they bother then ?

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Captain Evil

Oh, and theking: You have finally convinced me that you are indeed not Pathfinder. He wasn't nearly as stupid as you are.

theking

Exactly. Do not kill us and we won't destroy you. What is so difficult to understand about this equation.

You apparently do not have alot of knowledge about nukes, types of nukes and tactical use of nukes. The use of nukes does not mean humanity would die out completely and it does not mean a nuclear winter.

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Captain Evil

Well, first of all, turning "the entire muslim world" into "glass and ash" involves more than just a few tactical nukes. Apparently you do not know much about geography, but the muslim world is rather large. You would have to nuke the entire middle east, much of africa, large parts of asia - yes, you would have nuclear winter on your hands if you nuked all that.

Secondly, you don't seem to be getting that this "equation" does not work in one single direction.
Also, if both sides respond to violence directed at innocent civilians with more violence directed at innocent civilians, what do you get? Exactly.

Captain Evil

To clarify my point:
http://www.wamware.com/world-religions/map.htm

Nuke all the green parts on that map, and see what happens.

Edit:
better quality map
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/olc/dl/35299/map11.pdf

theking

You are being picky so I will put it a different way. If the muslim world were to unite and in turn act against us, for all practical purposes the muslim world would cease to exist. We will not stand by and allow any country or peoples to try and takes us down. I am not going to take the time to educate you about the use of weapons, conventional or nukes, but have you ever heard of selective targeting? There are key targets that will cause more death and destruction than the use of the nuke itself. I will repeat there would not be any nuclear winter.

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FATPad

Sorry. The entire muslim world turning against us wouldn't destroy the US.

Nor would we need to use enough nukes to destroy the entire world to win.

Would we lose a lot? Yep. Would a lot of Americans die? Yep. Would there be deaths on American soil? For a while...until it was clear that it was a Worldwide Muslims vs America war. Then we would throw them all out or imprison them all.

In the end, the US would be alive and every muslim country on the planet that was part of the Muslim Coalition To Openly Attack the US would be dead.

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Captain Evil

Ah, so you're not talking about turning the entire muslim world into glass and ash, as you so elegantly put it, but rather throw the entire world into chaos for many decades to come.

You seem to miss the point that a scenario like that will know no "winner". Sure, the muslim countries would be changed. Terrorism would get itself a nice new definition though. One that involves the whole western world getting it a lot harder than Israel has it now. Joy.

Captain Evil

Nobody said anything about destroying the US. Think along the lines of mass destruction and death across the entire world and you're getting a bit closer.

Nor did anyone say anything about a muslim coalition consisting of countries. Think along the lines of Al Qaeda times 1000 and and you're getting closer.

theking

I am satisfied that you would like us to stand by, hold our fire, and allow our enemies, current and future, to take potshots at us or attempt to bring down our country, but we will not allow that, thank you very much. Only the plumb dumb would even attempt it and someone that dumb does not deserve to take up space on this planet anyhow.

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PornoDoggy

Just so you know, I support the idea of disarming Saddam. Do you not understand the fact that, if this fakery on the part of the British turns out to be true, it calls into question the credibility of EVERYTHING both the Brits and the Americans?

I repeat again - I support the idea of disarming Saddam. I hope Americans know the costs this could involve. I do not share your obvious wet dream of a war against Islam. I also am not so stupid as to think that countries which do not agree with our approach are America-haters. I find myself in horrible company these days ...

jammyjenkins

Well please answer this for the many concerned international board visitors here:

What the hell is wrong with so many Americans these days then??

theking

It appears to me as if someone said something along those lines.

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theking

I do not have wet dreams of a war against Islam, period. My repsonse was in response to this.

I am about destroying people that kill us (enemies).

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Captain Evil

Has it ever occurred to you that there are more tactics besides world war and mass destruction?
Despite your sick little fantasies, world war 3 is generally considered a bad thing by most people. Maybe you would like to see millions of people die, but I for one do not share that fetish.

Captain Evil

This sounds like "if some of them piss us off we will commit genocide". Especially since not all muslims support terrorism.

Captain Evil

They've watched too many Rambo-movies, and do not realize it's real people dying.

theking

I like to keep it simple. Attempt to kill me and I will not only kill you but anyone and everyone that has aided you in your effort.

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MetaformX

Two quick points I would like to make
1. Bush is a disgrace to the United States of America.
2. America has done more in 200 years than most countries have in 2000 years. Jealousy is a bitch, so I don't blame the haters.

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jammyjenkins

I've watched those movies and I haven't gone mental

What is it about the US psyche and violence?

There seems to be this paranoia that permeates US society and naturally extends into international politics. "Us against them". Am I right?

Captain Evil

Yeah. You are absolutely right. Infants in arabic countries should be slaughtered by the masses for "aiding" Al Qaeda.

jammyjenkins

you miss the point

it's nothing close to jealousy

it's concern

didn't you read the clinton thread? we used to all get along

then you voted in a madman

and he seems to have poisened the minds of a lot of the population

Captain Evil

Those movies weren't about "your" people and "your" country fighting "evil" foreigners.

MetaformX

Bush is a madman, no question about it. What you guys have to understand is that the American people believe being a patriot means standing behind their leader, and unfortunatly, we have a crazy single minded lunatic as our leader right now. So not everyone agrees with Bush the moron, but they will stand behind him for the sake of being a patriot.

He is going to do damage to this country that will be felt for many years after he is gone. I don't know if I even have a point to make about this anyways...Just ranting...I hate Bush with a passion.

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theking

What do you think war is about. "Civilians" were specifically targeted and killed by the millions in the Second World War by all sides. Civilians on a lesser scale were specifically targeted in the Korean war and the same in the Vietnam war. Civilians are a legitimate target in any major conflict as it is the civilians that provide the ability for the military to wage war. Even when cilvilians are not specifically targeted they, unforturnately sometimes get in the way.

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jammyjenkins

very interesting

thanks

I guess the best we can do is ride it out, and hope it doesn't get too bumpy